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Post by humanbelly on Sept 26, 2009 15:06:58 GMT -5
Sure, Cap's got a dedicated thread; Thor's got one; so's Iron Man--- but poor ol' Greenskin is left out in the snow. . .
Actually, I just have a quick question on #14 (if anyone besides me is reading the title). Is that "Logan" Wolverine, or is it supposed to be his son (who I never knew existed until a couple of weeks ago)? Is there a specific way to tell them apart? Aaaaaaand is the real Elektra not dead, then?
Man-- what a passel o' sales-boosting guest-stars. . .
HB
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Post by defdave on Sept 29, 2009 15:12:42 GMT -5
Sure, Cap's got a dedicated thread; Thor's got one; so's Iron Man--- but poor ol' Greenskin is left out in the snow. . . Actually, I just have a quick question on #14 (if anyone besides me is reading the title). Is that "Logan" Wolverine, or is it supposed to be his son (who I never knew existed until a couple of weeks ago)? Is there a specific way to tell them apart? Aaaaaaand is the real Elektra not dead, then? Man-- what a passel o' sales-boosting guest-stars. . . HB Wolverine's son, Dakan, can be distinguished from his Dad by the tattoo on his shoulder and the fact that he only has two claws on the back of his hand and the third one comes out of the front of his wrist. I'm not reading the Hulk series by Loeb (and now I guess Pak is back), but I did enjoy Planet Hulk and WWH. I have the DVD ROM of all 40-something years of HULK issues. Lately, I've been going through the Bruce Jones run and will be working my way up. I'll then jump back to read the Byrne issues and then the David/Keown issues.
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Post by humanbelly on Dec 4, 2009 11:28:53 GMT -5
Sure, Cap's got a dedicated thread; Thor's got one; so's Iron Man--- but poor ol' Greenskin is left out in the snow. . . Actually, I just have a quick question on #14 (if anyone besides me is reading the title). Is that "Logan" Wolverine, or is it supposed to be his son (who I never knew existed until a couple of weeks ago)? Is there a specific way to tell them apart? Aaaaaaand is the real Elektra not dead, then? Man-- what a passel o' sales-boosting guest-stars. . . HB Wolverine's son, Dakan, can be distinguished from his Dad by the tattoo on his shoulder and the fact that he only has two claws on the back of his hand and the third one comes out of the front of his wrist. I'm not reading the Hulk series by Loeb (and now I guess Pak is back), but I did enjoy Planet Hulk and WWH. I have the DVD ROM of all 40-something years of HULK issues. Lately, I've been going through the Bruce Jones run and will be working my way up. I'll then jump back to read the Byrne issues and then the David/Keown issues. I completely forgot to check back! Sooooooo, how did the Bruce Jones run work for you? I'm almost scared to ask, 'cause I hated it so thoroughly--- enough to have personal email exchanges with one of the editors at the time (was very impressed with that level of communication, I must say). Maddeningly enough, the editor agreed that he didn't like the book's direction at all, but that sales were noticably up, so there was nothing to be done for it. (rrrrrRRRRRARGHHH!! Humanbelly SMASH!!!) The art, though---- geeze, just fantastic for the most part. The Hulk has generally been blessed with solid and/or iconic artists throughout most of his history, I've always marvelled (heh) at that. Loved David/Keown--- Byrne didn't leave many lasting memories with me, despite all of the hype before his short-ish run. HB
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Post by humanbelly on Jan 1, 2010 6:47:29 GMT -5
My son has picked up the last few issues as he's come across them on the coffee table, and his response to #18 was, "Why would I pay $4 for an entire issue that doesn't do anything but watch a guy have a flippin' nervous breakdown??"
I. . . I can't say I entirely disagree. . .
Although it was extremely gratifying to see that Loeb had done some impressively deep background research. Samson "cured" Betty's englazioned condition in Hulk #141-- which she was afflicted with by the Sandman (in an effort to cure himself) in #138-- who himself had been turned into that living-glass form at the end of issue #114 (!!). The only artistic license I noticed was that Betty wasn't wearing that cute little short sun dress back in 1968, and I'm pretty sure she had been frozen while waving in greeting to everyone. . . But I'm sure I must be the only person on the planet who has any recollection of all of that-- so I'll give Loeb & Portaccio an extra bonus point just for touching deep continuity with such relative accuracy and giving it a bit of significance.
[late note: Nope, she was in fact in a HOSPITAL GOWN, as it turns out! (One of her many, many nervous breakdowns. She and Aunt May are pretty much the reason health insurance premiums are so high. . . ) But it somehow became a generic sleeveless dress by the time she was cured. So consistency was lost from the get-go. And the arm was raised in. . . terror of what was happening to her?? That too was kind of lost over the intervening months. . . HB]
But still-- this years-long "decompression" trend is KILLING my enjoyment of this medium. . .
HB
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Post by bobc on Feb 4, 2010 19:59:05 GMT -5
Speaking of decompressed (boring, tedious, droning stories) I noticed that Marvel is now pushing some new "event" which is "11 Years in the making."
Uhhh if it takes you 11 years to wrap up a story...
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Post by bobc on Feb 4, 2010 19:59:26 GMT -5
I mean is that supposed to be a selling point?
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 4, 2010 21:08:02 GMT -5
Oh, now, bobc-- let's not overstate the facts. SEVEN years-- just seven! I mean, 11 would be a LOT. . . whereas seven years is a perfectly reasonable, preferable amount of time to let a storyline, er, ferment. (Is ferment the best word I'm looking for here? Coagulate? Decompose? It's so difficult. . . )
But, yeah, clearly the idea is that we're "wrapping up" the grand scheme and sweeping events that have presided since the beginning of Dis-Assembled. I'm not planning on buying any of the SIEGE crossover material beyond what I'm already subscribed to, though. I just kind of want it to be done, and see if things in the Avengers realm can indeed improve.
I have to say, though, that I'm very nearly tempted to pick up all of the peripheral books that comprise Fall of the Hulks. I'm anxious to see the return of my true, favorite greenskinned pal. This Red Hulk mystery-thingy has strung along For. Ever. I'm plumb numbed to it tickling my curiosity bone anymore.
HB
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Post by bobc on Feb 5, 2010 10:44:21 GMT -5
Are you sure? I could have sworn it was 11 years! Either way, it's too long. And I think the verb you're looking for is "rotting."
I wonder if this "decompressed" crap is just an excuse for writers being too lazy to think up new ideas--so they just come up with one and string it along for 7 or 11 years. It's not like peoples' attention spans are getting longer. They're getting shorter! I doesn't make any sense.
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 5, 2010 12:44:26 GMT -5
But I will concede that 7 years isn't necessarily too long to tell a story. I mean, look at Harry Potter (and those didn't even come out every year.) If the story and the writing are good enough to sustain spreading out - we're in business. Of course, this ain't no Harry Potter and there's no one working at Marvel that's fit to tie J.K. Rowling's shoes so... it tends to lend more towards "Lost" to me which operated on the Marvel concept of "Tell a little every week over a long period of time and criticize the viewers if they don't have the attention span to stick with us through the boring parts."
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 5, 2010 14:07:46 GMT -5
That's a good question. Why has this become such an entrenched story-telling format? Although really, hardly any story actually gets told. . .
I have two thoughts, off the top of my head-- and they have no basis in any knowledge on my part--
1) "Decompression" seems to be a much more cinema-influenced method of story-telling to me. But not action-film influenced. Each moment is thoroughly sculpted and explored, shot by shot. So an entire issue is often little more than two or three individual scenes. And, if you think about it, it takes no more time to read them than it would to watch them on a screen. Even with great art and solid dialogue and characterization, there's simply not enough content to legitimately string a reader along one month at a time. Sure, it works great in TPB form (which must now be the target market, I guess)-- but it's death for a traditional comic book consumer.
2) It's a continuing testament to the willing editorial surrender to the self-indulgence of the writers. I'm sure it's much more enjoyable to just feel all "look what a clever writer I am", and not exhibit a shred of story-telling discipline-- but, geeze, SOMEONE'S got to crack a whip at some point!
Ooops-- my wife needs to use the computer (we're all home. . . there's gonna be, like, 2 feet of snow in the DC metro area today. . . ) -- gotta go.
HB
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Post by bobc on Feb 5, 2010 14:13:22 GMT -5
Books are a completely different matter, Waspie.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 5, 2010 18:00:04 GMT -5
I also remember 7 ^^ I wouldn't call it story, more like a "phase" where the MU became progressively darker until it fell in the hands of a villain, who is now blowing it all up. As such, 7 years is towards the long end of things but still not too bad. Having said this, to be honest I don't believe that 7 years ago they were already planning all this. If we look at the whole phase we have
- Disassembled, totally out of the blue - House of M, again very sudden - Civil War, the real prologue to Dark Reign but lacking a prologue in itself - WWH, had little impact on the rest - Secret Invasion, instrumental for Osborn rise to power - Dark Reign, showing Osborn in power - Siege, presumably ending the Dark Reign
So, my point is that the whole event probably wasn't structured as such from the beginning, but took shape as things came by (and sales went well). Civil War begins rather suddenly and House of M wasn't really presented as a prologue to it. WWH added little to the rest, so I think that it was only somewhere between WWH and SI that Marvel started planning out the Dark Reign and rise of Norman Osborn. Similarly, they probably did have in mind that such reign would end at some point, but the idea of having a Siege of Asgard is likely to be fairly recent.
As a final thought, on Newsarama there is an interview to Quesada for the launch of Planet Hulk, and there he says that such story was originally planned to be the "event" of the summer, before the idea for Civil War popped in. By my calendar, CW certainly wasn't 7 years ago...
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 6, 2010 0:09:17 GMT -5
Books are a completely different matter, Waspie. True on many levels, however the basic concepts remain the same through any type of literature or any other medium. If you want to keep an audience, you have to be consistently good. You can't just keep us around by feeding us crap with the promise that's it's leading to an eventual payoff. That's why the Potter books work. Sure there are dozens of successful writers who write books in a series, like James Patterson with the Alex Cross books, but each one tells a completely self-contained story. You don't have to stick with the series. Only a true master like J.K. Rowling can pull off something that tells one big story in multiple parts and takes 10+ years to reach a climax. We'll stick with it till the end because each and every part of the story was fascinating and brilliantly written and had it's own smaller climax within it. This is what Marvel tries to do these days but they can't pull it off because each part is not brilliantly or even adequately written and no segment ever feels finished. I don't think that it's a matter of comics not being able to pull off the same feat as other literature - it's more a matter of Bendis and the other current writers at Marvel not being able to pull it off. If each issue of New Avengers had been great and continued to advance some major plot and add more and more great developments for the characters for these past seven years, would any of us have minded that it took seven years to tell. I doubt it. The problem is, the egos at Marvel are so big, they think they pull this massive undertaking off and they simply don't have the talent. To be fair, I'm not sure any of the previous writers were capable of it either but they weren't so egotistical as to think they could so, like Patterson, they gave us a lot of shorter stories that had subplots connecting them. The concepts of good literature apply equally to novels and comics.
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 6, 2010 9:45:48 GMT -5
Books are a completely different matter, Waspie. True on many levels, however the basic concepts remain the same through any type of literature or any other medium. If you want to keep an audience, you have to be consistently good. You can't just keep us around by feeding us crap with the promise that's it's leading to an eventual payoff. That's why the Potter books work. Sure there are dozens of successful writers who write books in a series, like James Patterson with the Alex Cross books, but each one tells a completely self-contained story. You don't have to stick with the series. Only a true master like J.K. Rowling can pull off something that tells one big story in multiple parts and takes 10+ years to reach a climax. We'll stick with it till the end because each and every part of the story was fascinating and brilliantly written and had it's own smaller climax within it. This is what Marvel tries to do these days but they can't pull it off because each part is not brilliantly or even adequately written and no segment ever feels finished. I don't think that it's a matter of comics not being able to pull off the same feat as other literature - it's more a matter of Bendis and the other current writers at Marvel not being able to pull it off. If each issue of New Avengers had been great and continued to advance some major plot and add more and more great developments for the characters for these past seven years, would any of us have minded that it took seven years to tell. I doubt it. The problem is, the egos at Marvel are so big, they think they pull this massive undertaking off and they simply don't have the talent. To be fair, I'm not sure any of the previous writers were capable of it either but they weren't so egotistical as to think they could so, like Patterson, they gave us a lot of shorter stories that had subplots connecting them. The concepts of good literature apply equally to novels and comics. I would toss in, as a perfect example of the well-written, engaging, multiple-arc type of writing you're describing, Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden series (Dresden Files/Chronicles). Terrific individual novels (about once a year), that still rely on and refer to- and are somewhat driven by- a much larger overplot. Really great pot-boilers that are at times unexpectedly moving and even thought-provoking. I do think, though, that regardless of how talented the creative team might be, comic books are at an inherent disadvantage for this kind of really huge, sweeping storytelling. Ultimately, each issue is just too short to be able to accomodate the amount of content needed for that kind of depth and scope. Either too much stuff happens in one issue, and it feels rushed and shallow (I think Crisis on Infinite Earths suffered from this a good bit), or you get the current trend, where it takes 6 months to tell the story of a one-day event (sort of like that Red Death/Dell Rusk story right before Dis-assembled). Then again-- maybe it's not impossible. As soon as I made that statement, I thought of three possible exceptions: 1) Planet Hulk 2) Amazing Adventures/Killraven from back in the 70's 3) Really, the whole ending arc of Thor's initial run. 4) Hmm. Maybe "Panther's Rage" from the old Jungle Action title? (don't remember much about it, though). Okay, I yield the point back-- you're right. It DOES take a disciplined, focused, talented creative team. . . HB
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Doctor Bong
West Coast Avenger
Master of Belly Dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 49
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Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 8, 2010 6:18:25 GMT -5
How's the blizzard going, belly? I hope you and yours haven't been inconvenienced too much by Mother Nature. Any frost giant sightings...?
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 8, 2010 7:35:37 GMT -5
How's the blizzard going, belly? I hope you and yours haven't been too much inconvenienced by Mother Nature. Any frost giant sightings...? Sheesh-- yes, the neighbors & I enlisted Ymir himself to help shovel a car-path out of our cul-de-sac (as the snow plows haven't seemed to get to us in the two previous big storms). The storm was too much for him, even, and he was glad to help out in return for a nice hot cup of chocolate meade and a warm seat by the fireplace. . . . . . 'course now it seems like he really should be able to head back into the forest behind our house. I mean, he does fill up the entire family room-- and we're going to be a long time repairing his "enthusiasm" damage from watching the Superbowl last night. (We just kind of played along with his mistaken notion that it was Buffalo vs. Green Bay. An "Ice Bowl", as it were. He doesn't really follow linear events very well, anyhow. . . ) HB
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Post by bobc on Feb 10, 2010 13:54:29 GMT -5
I never noticed you were from DC! I remember blizzards like that from when I lived in upstate NY. I like snow, but not when it goes on for five months. I've only seen snow here in Texas a handful of times--so when we get it, it's a treat. Stay warm, my friend
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 11, 2010 14:19:54 GMT -5
Thanks, bobc ol' chum--- happily, it hasn't been unusually cold during all of this. Almost every day has hit above freezing-- just not enough to significantly melt all of this snowpack. One side consequence? (Oh, this is gonna elicit a HUGE groan from folks who don't just tune me out already. . . ) I've pulled out my run of the Hulk- starting w/ Tales to Astonish #59- and am going ahead w/ a read-through (sure to be many months long).
I can hear people's eyes glazing over already. . .
HB
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Post by sharkar on Feb 22, 2010 20:01:52 GMT -5
One side consequence? (Oh, this is gonna elicit a HUGE groan from folks who don't just tune me out already. . . ) I've pulled out my run of the Hulk- starting w/ Tales to Astonish #59- and am going ahead w/ a read-through (sure to be many months long). I can hear people's eyes glazing over already. . . Not at all...I think it sounds like a lovely way to spend a few hours. And actually you're doing what I did a few days ago (okay, so I need to get a life! ;D), when I started to read my copy of Essential Classic X-Men volume 2. This was my first time reading a lot of these mid-1960s X stories; and what stood out was how desperately Stan and company tried to impart a Spider-Man "with- it" feel to the X-Men, starting with having Jean Grey attend college. So we get all the hip lingo (painful), everyone's calling each other "dad", everyone's going to meet at the soda shop, etc. I know the X-Men wasn't a successful comic back then, but grafting Spidey onto it wasn't the answer (obviously). I think it's also telling that Stan put Werner Roth on the book, because Roth was an experienced romance comic artist--like Romita Sr. Both artists were known for drawing very attractive faces and bodies, and since Romita was doing well on Spidey it's like Stan was hoping lightning would strike twice. So while the stories in this Essentials volume may not be top notch, it's interesting (for me, at least) to see how Marvel was trying to get a handle on one of its less-successful books.
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 15, 2010 20:31:20 GMT -5
Evenin' Shar! (& all)--
Man, I'm up to Incredible Hulk #140 ("The Brute That Shouted Love At The Heart Of The Atom"). There have been some really terrific forgotten (or even never-recognized) gems in this run. It's also been quite interesting to watch trends develop and achieve tenure at such an accelerated rate. Some random observations:
1) Roy Thomas & Herb Trimpe had a remarkable writer/artist rapport going here. There are many instances where entire sequences are told visually--- no words at all. Very unusual in the late 60's/very early 70's.
2) Herb Trimpe was a brilliant, yet surprisingly flawed, penciller. We've discussed that before at length, I know. But ultimately his style is. . . endearing (for lack of a better word). And boy, his fans were STAUNCH in supporting him!
3) John Severin was Herb's best inker, even though he tended to overwhelm Herb's style. That team was the best during Trimpe's long run on the title.
4) Despite popular belief, even at the time, we got clear to issue #125 before the Hulk completely dropped using personal pronouns and began referring to himself entirely in the 3rd person. This standardization was clearly of Roy's doing, and it was several years overdue.
5) To the point of comic absurdity, the preferred method of introducing the Hulk into a plot up until now (and, in fact, it basically happens again in #140) is to have him be kidnapped, shanghai-ed, teleported, or otherwise whisked off either against his will or accidentally, and be subjected to the whims of whoever's responsible for the deed (or on hand after it occurs). I could certainly surrender to my comic nerd-itude and sit here and list how this happened, issue by issue, but that's just cruel to you kind folks whom I consider friends. Trust me-- it's happened at least 30 times in the 80 issues I've read so far.
6) ROSS: Talbot! Tell the crew to arm the copters with the [fill in the blank experimental] weapon! Blast it! This time we've GOT that monster, and we're going to get rid of him once and for all! BETTY: And when you do that, Father. . . you'll be. . . KILLING THE MAN I LOVE!!! (sob-sob-sob) (Occasionally accompanied by nervous breakdown) I kid you not-- issue after issue after ISSUE. Consecutively. Especially when Stan was writing. Except for the near-wedding in ish #124, this was as far as the personal plotline ever developed--- for YEARS. And if progress was indeed made in one issue--- it was forgotten or reneged by the next. Hoo boy.
Okay, that's enough blast from the past for tonight. Thanks to any who've read this much!
HB
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Post by sharkar on Mar 18, 2010 20:20:18 GMT -5
HB, I never read the 1960s-70s Hulk on a regular basis (usually only when there were guest stars involved, such as the Avengers or FF or Havok/Polaris), but your heartfelt, thoughtful comments inspired me to read some Hulk issues on htmlcomics. Man, I'm up to Incredible Hulk #140 ("The Brute That Shouted Love At The Heart Of The Atom"). Issue #140 was one of the few Hulks I'd read previously, as it was part of that stunning Heart of the Atom collection (which we discussed some months ago). I'll never forget that panel in #140 which Bruce/Hulk is reclining, he's calm and happy, he's Jarella's consort, and he finally has everything he never had in the real world: love, respect, friends, admiration. He's accepted. (Of course it doesn't last.) Harlan Ellison plotted this story as well as its lead-in (Avengers #88), and I like how Rascally Roy--who scripted--added some allusions to Ellison's works, such as the story's title... and the following exchange: Assassin: "Repent, Harlequin--" Bruce/Hulk:"--said the Ticktockman...seems to me I read that someplace!" ;D 1) Roy Thomas & Herb Trimpe had a remarkable writer/artist rapport going here. There are many instances where entire sequences are told visually--- no words at all. Very unusual in the late 60's/very early 70's. You're right, and I've come across quite a few in the Hulks I've just read, such as the Hulk and the deer page. So beautiful. You get such a sense of the Hulk's overwhelming loneliness and his longing to connect...great storytelling. There's a panel in #138 when Bruce and Betty are in her hospital room and he's sitting on her bed; it's a simple panel, but Thomas and Trimpe manage to convey such a sense of thwarted love and sexual tension (they're like an older Romeo and Juliet). 2) Herb Trimpe was a brilliant, yet surprisingly flawed, penciller. We've discussed that before at length, I know. But ultimately his style is. . . endearing (for lack of a better word). And boy, his fans were STAUNCH in supporting him! Issue #140 looks unlike other Hulk issues from that time, since it's Trimpe's layouts and Sam Grainger--who has a much more polished style--doing the finished art. But this particular issue concerns a dream come true for the Hulk (for part of the issue anyway), so Grainger's "prettier" art works; it's like a fairy tale. 3) John Severin was Herb's best inker, even though he tended to overwhelm Herb's style. That team was the best during Trimpe's long run on the title. What a great team! They impart an old-fashioned look to the comic, which I think works very well for the Hulk. Severin (the war comics veteran) is great at delineating military milieu and personnel (Ross, Talbot et al) and a 1950s-like paranoia of the "different." 5) To the point of comic absurdity, the preferred method of introducing the Hulk into a plot up until now (and, in fact, it basically happens again in #140) is to have him be kidnapped, shanghai-ed, teleported, or otherwise whisked off either against his will or accidentally, and be subjected to the whims of whoever's responsible for the deed (or on hand after it occurs). I could certainly surrender to my comic nerd-itude and sit here and list how this happened, issue by issue, but that's just cruel to you kind folks whom I consider friends. Trust me-- it's happened at least 30 times in the 80 issues I've read so far. I like the idea of the Hulk as itinerant (even when it's against his will at times); it fits with the Hulk's tragedy...his only hope of ever finding peace is to escape his world (our world). 6) ROSS: Talbot! Tell the crew to arm the copters with the [fill in the blank experimental] weapon! Blast it! This time we've GOT that monster, and we're going to get rid of him once and for all! BETTY: And when you do that, Father. . . you'll be. . . KILLING THE MAN I LOVE!!! (sob-sob-sob) (Occasionally accompanied by nervous breakdown) I kid you not-- issue after issue after ISSUE. Consecutively. Yes, and I love how Betty dreams this very scenario (her father and Talbot hounding Bruce/Hulk) in #138! Okay, that's enough blast from the past for tonight. Thanks to any who've read this much! Thank you...these are rich, wonderfully touching stories.
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 21, 2010 17:17:17 GMT -5
HB, I never read the 1960s-70s Hulk on a regular basis (usually only when there were guest stars involved, such as the Avengers or FF or Havok/Polaris), but your heartfelt, thoughtful comments inspired me to read some Hulk issues on htmlcomics. Issue #140 looks unlike other Hulk issues from that time, since it's Trimpe's layouts and Sam Grainger--who has a much more polished style--doing the finished art. But this particular issue concerns a dream come true for the Hulk (for part of the issue anyway), so Grainger's "prettier" art works; it's like a fairy tale. . You may have a point there, Shar. I've just finished up that all-too-brief initial period of the Jarella's World saga (concludes in #156, w/ Bruce/Hulk growing out of their universe for the final time & apparently inadvertantly dooming the planet in the process), and the inking chores had gone over to Sal Trapani at that point--- whose style strikes me as kinda similar to Grainger's. (Ohhhh, you're probably going to tell me that Sal's really Sal Buscema or Joe Staton or someone else I should probably recognize . . . ) My one knock is that his/their style could sometimes look a little too shiny or plastic-coated-- which could now & then bring out Herb's weaknesses rather than enhance his strengths, I think. Main writers so far- Stan, Roy, & Archie Goodwin-- who had a very solid several-month run. There's been some abyssmal fill-in work by Gary Friedrich, Gerry Conway, Len Wein & Chris Claremont (feet-wetting for most of these youngsters!)-- and now Steve Englehart's coming aboard. As always, continuity of vision has served this title well. HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 1, 2010 16:14:47 GMT -5
*Whew* Up to issue #200, now. Even with Len Wein's merciless over-writing, they tend to go pretty quickly during this period where Marvel was pared down to 17 to 19 page stories. Steve Englehart had a very solid run, and then the title started to fall apart a bit with this 3-part Warlock-as-Jesus-on-Counter-Earth wannabe-epic that was just too self-congratulatory to bear. We shifted through a few writers and landed on heavy-handed Len Wein (great dialogue; solid, thoughtful characterization; but a brick wall when it comes to interesting plotting.). He's capable, but probably the weakest of the Hulk's regular writers up to this point (a crown that will be taken from him at least a couple of times in short order). And we finally lost Herb Trimpe with issue #193, I believe. CLEARLY he had grown very bored with this book-- the art was never worse than when he was allowed to ink his own pencils. And yet the fans, like lemmings, clammored for him to do so & praised the work because, I guess, he'd done it so brilliantly 6 or 7 years earlier. There'd still be flashes of brilliance-- but there was also a pervading sense of just-getting-it-done. Jack Abel inked for several issues, followed by Joe Staton. And Joe Staton was GREAT. I mean, no question. And, like Dick Giardono & Joe Sinnott (mentioned elsewhere), his style was instrumental in easing the otherwise-unthinkable transition from Herb Trimpe to Sal Buscema. I believe he's an unsung hero for this particular period.
I will also say, right up front, that I think we're about to hit about 100 issues of pretty mediocre-to-outright-lame comic books coming up here. I'll slog through them, but I won't burden you kind folks w/ too much expansive discussion.
HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 29, 2010 20:32:32 GMT -5
Up to #280. Scott, if you're out there, I have to concede that this book spent a LOT of time being not very good! Len Wein alternated between brilliant and very mediocre almost on a by-issue basis. His handling of Jarella's demise was some of his best work (he apparently admitted that he intended to kill her off from the moment he took over the book), and then he lost all inspiration, created a horrible, contrived supporting cast, and gave the book to Roger Stern. Rog clearly had no feel for any particular direction, and turned the book into "Hulk w/ guest stars". His best issues by far were when the Hulk was bent on returning Jarella's body to her homeworld. Then he created another lame supporting cast, and--- turned it over to Bill Mantlo. Bill Mantlo is faring better than my memory had him, I'll admit. He clearly made long-arc plans, and stuck with them. We're currently at the beginning of the long "Hulk-With-Banner's-Brain" period, which has some surprising resonances with Peter David's vision down the road.
But I'll admit-- this is a SLOG of comic book reading. Not in 100% enjoyment-ville, here. . .
HB
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Post by sufirjp on Apr 29, 2010 22:10:55 GMT -5
Oops.
Just found your Hulk thread. Sorry that I cross-posted over in the "introduce yourself" thread, but it doesn't look like anything I had to say there has much impact on the current discussion.
Which I can't really spend any time commenting on, as I haven't read a lot of pre-PAD Hulk. I'll need to read select issues here and there, as I'm currently trying to get a better understanding of the whole Red Raven/Sky People/Bi-Beast story, which frequently involves the Hulk. I'm also intending to read through Man-Beast's continuity, which intersects with the Hulk at various points, as part of my larger "Mt. Wundagore Chronology Project", wherein I read every comic that ties into Transia (High Evolutionary, Chthon, Spider-Woman, Puppet Master, Werewolf by Night, etc., etc.)
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Doctor Bong
Young Avenger
Master of belly dancing! (No, really...)
Posts: 73
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 30, 2010 1:00:01 GMT -5
Up to #280. Scott, if you're out there, I have to concede that this book spent a LOT of time being not very good! Len Wein alternated between brilliant and very mediocre almost on a by-issue basis. His handling of Jarella's demise was some of his best work (he apparently admitted that he intended to kill her off from the moment he took over the book), and then he lost all inspiration, created a horrible, contrived supporting cast, and gave the book to Roger Stern. Rog clearly had no feel for any particular direction, and turned the book into "Hulk w/ guest stars". His best issues by far were when the Hulk was bent on returning Jarella's body to her homeworld. Then he created another lame supporting cast, and--- turned it over to Bill Mantlo. Bill Mantlo is faring better than my memory had him, I'll admit. He clearly made long-arc plans, and stuck with them. We're currently at the beginning of the long "Hulk-With-Banner's-Brain" period, which has some surprising resonances with Peter David's vision down the road. But I'll admit-- this is a SLOG of comic book reading. Not in 100% enjoyment-ville, here. . . HB We'll have to agree to disagree when it comes to Len Wein's run. Perhaps it's partly due to childhood nostalgia, but I was enjoying enormously recently rereading it, before my reading material sources were shut down... .
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Doctor Bong
Young Avenger
Master of belly dancing! (No, really...)
Posts: 73
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 30, 2010 1:02:22 GMT -5
Oops. Just found your Hulk thread. Sorry that I cross-posted over in the "introduce yourself" thread, but it doesn't look like anything I had to say there has much impact on the current discussion. Which I can't really spend any time commenting on, as I haven't read a lot of pre-PAD Hulk. I'll need to read select issues here and there, as I'm currently trying to get a better understanding of the whole Red Raven/Sky People/Bi-Beast story, which frequently involves the Hulk. I'm also intending to read through Man-Beast's continuity, which intersects with the Hulk at various points, as part of my larger "Mt. Wundagore Chronology Project", wherein I read every comic that ties into Transia (High Evolutionary, Chthon, Spider-Woman, Puppet Master, Werewolf by Night, etc., etc.) Have you already read "Atlantis Attacks"?
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 30, 2010 4:58:39 GMT -5
Up to #280. Scott, if you're out there, I have to concede that this book spent a LOT of time being not very good! Len Wein alternated between brilliant and very mediocre almost on a by-issue basis. His handling of Jarella's demise was some of his best work (he apparently admitted that he intended to kill her off from the moment he took over the book), and then he lost all inspiration, created a horrible, contrived supporting cast, and gave the book to Roger Stern. Rog clearly had no feel for any particular direction, and turned the book into "Hulk w/ guest stars". His best issues by far were when the Hulk was bent on returning Jarella's body to her homeworld. Then he created another lame supporting cast, and--- turned it over to Bill Mantlo. Bill Mantlo is faring better than my memory had him, I'll admit. He clearly made long-arc plans, and stuck with them. We're currently at the beginning of the long "Hulk-With-Banner's-Brain" period, which has some surprising resonances with Peter David's vision down the road. But I'll admit-- this is a SLOG of comic book reading. Not in 100% enjoyment-ville, here. . . HB We'll have to agree to disagree when it comes to Len Wein's run. Perhaps it's partly due to childhood nostalgia, but I was enjoying enormously recently rereading it, before my reading material sources were shut down... . I don't think we'd entirely disagree, Doc-- as I should have mentioned that, at the time, I thought Len Wein was the BEST HULK WRITER EVER, and was crushed when he left the book. It's upon this read-through that I'm having that impression tarnished just a bit. And in retrospect, the end of his run is where he just derailed completely (although he certainly could toss in some clunkers periodically before that). HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 30, 2010 6:37:59 GMT -5
Up to #280. I was enjoying enormously recently rereading it, before my reading material sources were shut down... . Oh daggone it--- I was wondering what you were refering to, hoping against hope that it wasn't what I feared. So I went to check out Freecomicsonline. . . and it's gone! GONE! RAAAARGH---WHY MUST HUMANBELLY'S FAVORITE WEBSITES GO AWAY??? Blast, blast, blast--- HB
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Doctor Bong
Young Avenger
Master of belly dancing! (No, really...)
Posts: 73
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 30, 2010 9:40:47 GMT -5
We'll have to agree to disagree when it comes to Len Wein's run. Perhaps it's partly due to childhood nostalgia, but I was enjoying enormously recently rereading it, before my reading material sources were shut down... . I don't think we'd entirely disagree, Doc-- as I should have mentioned that, at the time, I thought Len Wein was the BEST HULK WRITER EVER, and was crushed when he left the book. It's upon this read-through that I'm having that impression tarnished just a bit. And in retrospect, the end of his run is where he just derailed completely (although he certainly could toss in some clunkers periodically before that). HB[/quote However I do agree with you in your assesment of Roger Stern, a very good Avengers writer who, nevertheless, never seemed to get it right when it came to ol' Greenskin.
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