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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 25, 2009 15:12:16 GMT -5
Just finished rereading Avengers Forever. I could go on and on about how great Kurt Busiek was at making sense out of the crazy mistakes made by other writers but instead of beating that dead horse, I had an idea for something that might be fun for this board.
I imagine everyone here has read the series but to refresh your memories (If they need refreshing) it features a team of 7 Avengers plucked out of the timestream to create an interestingly balanced team. The team was:
1.Wasp - from the "Present." Her leadership skills were strong.
2.Giant Man- also from the "Present." His confidence was a little weak but his sanity was stable.
3.Yellowjacket- from just before his wedding to Jan. He still believed he had killed Hank Pym.
4.Hawkeye- from just after the Kree/Skrull War. He had just returned to being Hawkeye but didn't have all his fancy gadgets.
5.Captain America- after having just been disillusioned about America and politics. He was at one of his lowest points.
6.Songbird- from the future. However, the rest of the team only remembered her as a villain
7.Captain Marvel (Genis) - Even further in the future.
Now for the challenge. Assemble your own team from any time period. Don't be afraid to duplicate a character from someone else's choice if you think it makes your team dynamics work better.
Here's mine:
1. Captain Marvel (Monica) - pulled from just after she was appointed team leader. She was strong, powerful, and confident.
2. Wasp - from about 15 minutes after the Hulk quit the team. She was still flighty and had very few powers. She also had no idea whether or not this whole Avengers thing would last.
3. Vision - from a few weeks before the birth of his and Wanda's children. This was when he was at his most human.
4. J2 - from Avengers Next in the future. I think it would be interesting to see how quickly everyone else accepts the son of the Juggernaut.
5. Hellcat - plucked on her way to the meeting in Avengers 150-151 that would decide whether she would become a full Avenger. She had not yet been trained by Moondragon but was full of enthusiasm and an eagerness to be an Avenger.
6. Captain America - from the present (Bucky). The others would think he was Steve Rogers at first but would be shocked to learn that Bucky is alive. Of course the Wasp would be shocked first to learn that Captain America is alive.
7. She-Hulk - She has to work side by side with the Vision and the Wasp a couple of weeks after she ripped him in half and put her in a coma during disassembled.
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Post by betaraybill on Jul 26, 2009 13:40:23 GMT -5
I like the team you assembled. Mine is:
Iron Man (Rhodes from the West Coast Avengers Mini-Series. Wouldn't cause trust issues though because most of the team are people after that initial revelation.)
Black Knight, Dane Whitman from the earliest he was with the team.
Wasp, from the era she was team leader (vol 1; 270's, the big Masters of Evil story) right after Hercules was pummeled so she doesn't know if he survived or if the Masters of Evil were defeated.
Monica Rambeau as Captain Marvel right after she joined the team. So she's a rookie and not as fluid or comfortable a member as she became.
Present Beast dealing with his mutations.
Future Captain America after his upcoming rebirth, in whatever state of mind he's in.
Future Quasar (Phyla-Vel). I really liked her in the Annihilation Conquest series.
Another team that would be fun for me, and I know I've joked about this before so I'll continue in my own particularly annoying way, is a group made up of all Clint Barton's illegimate offspring:
(Confirmed liasons)
Wasp's daughter "Gnat"
Wanda's son "Quiver"
Echoe's daughter "Soundgarden"
Bobbi's Son "Phantom Rider, Too" (ehhhh, hehe, congrats Clint, you're, um, a father, hehe... o boy)
(Suspected trists)
She-Hulk's daughter "Squat Thrust" (all the cool code names have been taken by then.)
Tigra's son "Tony the"... oh nevermind...
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Post by scottharris on Jul 28, 2009 2:39:16 GMT -5
Okay, here's my team:
Thor circa Avengers #280, when he was cursed by Hela to have brittle and unhealing bones
Hawkeye after he's brought back to life but before he becomes Ronin, circa New Avengers #26
Vision from Avengers #66, when nobody trusts him because he was mind-controlled by Ultron
Ms Marvel in the period between Avengers #200 and Avengers Annual #10
Hank Pym from the end of Avengers #230 when he's left the Mansion and quit being a superhero following his trial
Wasp circa Kurt's Avengers #24 at the end of the Ultron saga when they learn Ultron is based on Hank Pym's brain patterns and she blames herself for him hitting her
And as team leader, Monica Rambeau from a future when she is once again leader of the Avengers
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Post by sharkar on Jul 28, 2009 20:22:31 GMT -5
Another team that would be fun for me, and I know I've joked about this before so I'll continue in my own particularly annoying way, is a group made up of all Clint Barton's illegimate offspring: (Confirmed liasons) Wasp's daughter "Gnat" Wanda's son "Quiver" Echoe's daughter "Soundgarden" Bobbi's Son "Phantom Rider, Too" (ehhhh, hehe, congrats Clint, you're, um, a father, hehe... o boy) (Suspected trists) She-Hulk's daughter "Squat Thrust" (all the cool code names have been taken by then.) Tigra's son "Tony the"... oh nevermind... LOL! All that's missing is his progeny with Natasha--"Blackhawk"! (Oh, so what if DC has already used that name...) Anyway, love them all--especially "Quiver." And like you, I have no doubt when Wanda does comes back, it'll be with a little blond-haired toddler in tow...and Clint will have finally fulfilled his dream of being the father of Wanda's little witchbrood (as he so gallantly offered her back in Avengers #102, v. 1).  |
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 2, 2009 16:44:18 GMT -5
Another team that would be fun for me, and I know I've joked about this before so I'll continue in my own particularly annoying way, is a group made up of all Clint Barton's illegimate offspring: (Confirmed liasons) Wasp's daughter "Gnat" Wanda's son "Quiver" Echoe's daughter "Soundgarden" Bobbi's Son "Phantom Rider, Too" (ehhhh, hehe, congrats Clint, you're, um, a father, hehe... o boy) (Suspected trists) She-Hulk's daughter "Squat Thrust" (all the cool code names have been taken by then.) Tigra's son "Tony the"... oh nevermind... LOL! All that's missing is his progeny with Natasha--"Blackhawk"! (Oh, so what if DC has already used that name...) Anyway, love them all--especially "Quiver." And like you, I have no doubt when Wanda does comes back, it'll be with a little blond-haired toddler in tow...and Clint will have finally fulfilled his dream of being the father of Wanda's little witchbrood (as he so gallantly offered her back in Avengers #102, v. 1). Man, and I really, really have never seen Clint as the promiscuous type! MUCH more a "get hung up on one lover & carry a torch for a ridiculously long time" type! (I mean, there's a solid precedent for that. . . ) She-Hulk? Even as a suspected tryst?? Ha! Not to put to fine a point on it. . . but . . . I . . . I don't think he'd- well- survive. Tigra? I don't remember-- was she chasing him, too, in WCA? I wanted to check, though-- was he involved with Moonstone to that degree in Thunderbolts? I can't quite recall. I also remember Melissa throwing herself at him--- but that he very kindly and maturely resisted her advances. Here's the thing with Hawk-- I think he'd be a great Dad. And there aren't many in the Marvel U I'd bestow that honor upon. Although it was brief, that was a neat aspect of his incarnation over in the Ultimate universe. Maybe that's a question for another thread? Who in the MU would REALLY make good parents? (And believe me, I'm not automatically in the tank for Reed and Sue. . . !) HB |
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Post by betaraybill on Aug 2, 2009 19:01:41 GMT -5
Another team that would be fun for me, and I know I've joked about this before so I'll continue in my own particularly annoying way, is a group made up of all Clint Barton's illegimate offspring: (Confirmed liasons) Wasp's daughter "Gnat" Wanda's son "Quiver" Echoe's daughter "Soundgarden" Bobbi's Son "Phantom Rider, Too" (ehhhh, hehe, congrats Clint, you're, um, a father, hehe... o boy) (Suspected trists) She-Hulk's daughter "Squat Thrust" (all the cool code names have been taken by then.) Tigra's son "Tony the"... oh nevermind... LOL! All that's missing is his progeny with Natasha--"Blackhawk"! (Oh, so what if DC has already used that name...) Anyway, love them all--especially "Quiver." And like you, I have no doubt when Wanda does comes back, it'll be with a little blond-haired toddler in tow...and Clint will have finally fulfilled his dream of being the father of Wanda's little witchbrood (as he so gallantly offered her back in Avengers #102, v. 1). I forgot about Natasha! No, I don't really think he had anything with either She Hulk or Tigra (though he and Jen had a good flirtation going for awhile, and Tigra is Tigra... I'm not judging, I'm just saying...) |
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Post by betaraybill on Aug 2, 2009 19:12:20 GMT -5
Here's the thing with Hawk-- I think he'd be a great Dad. And there aren't many in the Marvel U I'd bestow that honor upon. Although it was brief, that was a neat aspect of his incarnation over in the Ultimate universe. Maybe that's a question for another thread? Who in the MU would REALLY make good parents? (And believe me, I'm not automatically in the tank for Reed and Sue. . . !) I would've liked it better if Clint had pined for only three women his whole life: Natasha, Bobbi, and Wanda; instead of shacking up with Janet and Echo and whoever else he has. Good parents in the Marvel U? Great question! Thor and Sif maybe (in that rugged Norse way). |
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 2, 2009 20:46:36 GMT -5
This is, by the way, a neat survey-thread idea. I just re-read Avengers Forever not long ago, and I'm trying to recall what the specific criteria were for the team being those specific selections from those specific time periods. Getting a complete blank. Anyone helpful out there? I seem to recall that it was relevant. . .
Boy, there's a zillion cool ways to go. . .
Is there a "replacements" team possible?
1) Eric Masterson, just after he'd officially joined, and was so unsure of himself.
2) Obviously, Rhodey as Iron Man-- perhaps when the armour was beginning to cause him neurological distress-- OR late in his tenure w/ the original War Machine armour, when it was falling apart.
3) The "pale" Vision, shortly before he got his replacement/"real" body back.
4) Rita Demarr as Yellowjacket-- sometime before she gets murdered, naturally.
5) Jocasta- possibly the future version from A4Ever, maybe while she's pregnant?
6) Hmm-- how about Spider-Girl from the M-2 Universe?
7) Wow-- and then either USAgent as Cap or Bucky as Cap? Possibly from the future for either of them?
Boy, tough group to manage. I think I'd see either Jocasta or Rhodey as the leader of this bunch. Although USAgent would probably not be inclined to follow anyone, here.
More of a concept team than a beloved one. Not sure at all about the interpersonal chemistry.
HB
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 3, 2009 17:15:19 GMT -5
[quote author=betaraybill Good parents in the Marvel U? Great question! Thor and Sif maybe (in that rugged Norse way).[/quote]
"Yah, vatever doesn't kill der liddle codfish vill make him stronger, yah? Yoo betcha, by Yiminy! . . . pass me anudder herring, Sif, me liddle frostbite-blossom. . . "
Okay, maybe. Don Blake you could certainly make a case for, though.
One does have to get past the HUGE hurdle that it very well could be wildly irresponsible for any active superheroes to have kids. Remember when social services were going to take the Richards' kids away? When looked at through the lens of what's best for the kids' well-being-- that wasn't out of line at all.
Remember when Pete and MJ were having a baby (DID have a baby, in fact. Still waiting for her to turn back up at some point.)? Pete would be the BEST FATHER IN THE WORLD-- I have no doubt. He'd probably get my vote as the best in the MU. And boy, I sure wanted them to have that baby. But I also realized that if he DIDN'T give up being Spider-man, I would have to stop reading the book-- because the power/responsibility equation becomes completely different once that new, vulnerable life is added to it. And the ONLY way he could honor that would be by taking himself largely out of the line of fire on a daily basis. MJ can/could choose to take the emotional risk of losing Pete once she was committed to him. Their child doesn't have a choice. I recognize it's similar to the dilemma faced by soldiers, police officers, and firefighters, etc that are loving mothers and fathers--- but the scale of mortal danger is nowhere near comparable.
I'm talking folks to death, aren't I? Sheesh. Take a week off, and it's like a geyser exploding.
Others I like:
Cap
Hank McCoy
Vision, actually
Scott Lang was great (and a perfect example of my point)
Wasp
Monica Rambeaux
Storm
Hawkeye, definitely
That's off the top of my head. Picture a superhero- then picture them changing a diaper at 4 a.m. It kinda works.
HB- "He just keeps talking. . . and talking. . .and talking. . . "
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Doctor Bong
West Coast Avenger
Master of Belly Dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 49
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Post by Doctor Bong on Aug 4, 2009 5:34:38 GMT -5
h.b., I disagree that a soldier on tour in Iraq or a policeman whose beat is one of our worse inner cities faces any less mortal danger than Spidey; at least he has superpowers...
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 4, 2009 17:01:29 GMT -5
h.b., I disagree that a soldier on tour in Iraq or a policeman whose beat is one of our worse inner cities faces any less mortal danger than Spidey; at least he has superpowers... Well, the mitigating aspect of superpowers did cross my mind, actually. It's a valid point. Of course, a large balance of Spidey's foes also have superpowers, so it would seem to at least balance the equation in that aspect. It feels almost a touch disrespecful to be objectively comparing the threats faced and sacrifices made by our real-world superheroes (the police officers, fire fighters and armed servicemen) with those of the fictional, fanciful superheroes that we enjoy so much, I must admit. But my point isn't at all to minimize the contributions of the former, but rather to recognize that the latter doesn't really quite have a truly analagous counterpart in the Real World. They become a very small, specialized, high-profile group that, individually, on a daily basis, in full view of the public, have someone trying to brutally kill them. All the time. I know that's a touch of an exaggeration, but it still rings true to me. And ultimately, my point is that, for a parent to put their child through that on a daily basis-- regardless of the circumstances-- is just unsupportable. A child can usually survive crises and trauma. But this would be a level beyond which any child could endure. Mind you, I'm opining-off without the benefit of knowing any of these circumstances from the inside, so please forgive me if I seem to have gone the wrong way 'round the bend, and do feel free to set me straight--. HB |
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Post by thunderstrike78 on Oct 12, 2009 16:26:31 GMT -5
Having just re-read AVENGERS FOREVER over the weekend, I thought I'd take a stab at this:
1. Thor: from antiquity, well before Odin trapped him in the form of Don Blake. This Thor would be arrogant, boistrous, and unconcerned with the impact of his actions on "mere mortals." He'd probably be resistant to the idea of "teaming" with a bunch of mortals as well.
2. Captain America: from just after Civil War. Having lost the civil war, the readers (and maybe more modern characters) would know that he is about to be shot and killed in his next appearance. Similarly to AVENGERS FOREVER, this is a Cap whose faith in America has been shaken.
3. Iron Man: from his drinking days. 'Nuff said.
4. Warbird: from after she overcame her alcoholism in Kurt's run on Avengers. She and Tony could have some very interesting interactions, this time from the OTHER side (i.e., Carol trying to help Tony cope with his drinking).
5. Thunderstrike: yes, of course, I had to throw him in, but this version would be the Kevin Masterson version from A-Next
6. Vision: the pale version who is trying to reconnect with his emotions and (faux) humanity.
7. Bruce Banner: I'd like to see Banner be the main character, with few appearances of the Hulk. He might even be the squad leader, given his intelligence.
Just my thoughts. I think there's potentially some very interesting character dynamics lurking in that lineup.
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Post by humanbelly on Oct 12, 2009 19:59:44 GMT -5
I totally forgot about this thread-- and had meant to get back to it at some point! That's a solidly interesting team you've assembled, T-Strike. And I think Woodside's assemblage a few posts earlier was quite good, also. In fact, I think all of WS's suggestions for the various team iterations were worthy of consideration.
Hey, for Av4evr-- is it possible to get a team of even more direly distressed members? An all-angst squad? I'm pulling these right off the top of my head-- but--
1) Hank Pym as Goliath, when he was stuck at 10 to 12 feet (depending on how Stan's memory was working). HORRIBLY morose time for him.
2) Wonder Man, at the point where he was terrified of dying and of failure all at once.
3) Hawkeye, right after Mockingbird's death.
4) Warbird-- yep, in the depths of the bottle.
5) Cap, circa issue 5 or 6. If you read those issues the right way, he is (understandably) experiencing PROFOUND emotional and mental illness. (There's a panel where Jarvis is serving him dinner. Alone. And he's sitting there eating w/ full costume, mask, and gloves on. It's chilling.)
6) Wasp-- there are a lot for her. The brief period where she was still trying to cover for Hank's abusive breakdown; the moment right after Tony revealed he was Iron Man; or the extremely short, strange period where she was turned all insect-y-- just to name three.
7) Swordsman (original), in that brief, pathetic-yet-heroic time before he died, when he was still trying to regain his honor, fighting w/ infected wounds, and carrying on in spite of Mantis' brutal, callous treatment of him.
Hmm. I like this group a lot, actually. Especially Swordsman. But they're just the first seven I thought of. Needs more of Harras' run, and something else from the future.
HB
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Post by humanbelly on Oct 15, 2009 11:44:08 GMT -5
I totally forgot about this thread-- and had meant to get back to it at some point! That's a solidly interesting team you've assembled, T-Strike. And I think Woodside's assemblage a few posts earlier was quite good, also. In fact, I think all of WS's suggestions for the various team iterations were worthy of consideration. Hey, for Av4evr-- is it possible to get a team of even more direly distressed members? An all-angst squad? I'm pulling these right off the top of my head-- but-- 1) Hank Pym as Goliath, when he was stuck at 10 to 12 feet (depending on how Stan's memory was working). HORRIBLY morose time for him. 2) Wonder Man, at the point where he was terrified of dying and of failure all at once. 3) Hawkeye, right after Mockingbird's death. 4) Warbird-- yep, in the depths of the bottle. 5) Cap, circa issue 5 or 6. If you read those issues the right way, he is (understandably) experiencing PROFOUND emotional and mental illness. (There's a panel where Jarvis is serving him dinner. Alone. And he's sitting there eating w/ full costume, mask, and gloves on. It's chilling.) 6) Wasp-- there are a lot for her. The brief period where she was still trying to cover for Hank's abusive breakdown; the moment right after Tony revealed he was Iron Man; or the extremely short, strange period where she was turned all insect-y-- just to name three. 7) Swordsman (original), in that brief, pathetic-yet-heroic time before he died, when he was still trying to regain his honor, fighting w/ infected wounds, and carrying on in spite of Mantis' brutal, callous treatment of him. Hmm. I like this group a lot, actually. Especially Swordsman. But they're just the first seven I thought of. Needs more of Harras' run, and something else from the future. HB This is how low I've sunk--- responding to my own responses. . . Some more Lowest Ebb possibilities that could be thrown into the angst stew: Iron Man- In an alchoholic daze is the easy & somewhat obvious choice (although it certainly works), BUT-- how about at the end of the Crossing story, when it's revealed that, as a pawn of Kang, he has committed murder and manipulated his team? That was a Tony with nothing left at all. Thor- during the Assault on Olympus arc, when his bones were all broken, and he was being held together w/ armour & enchantments. OR-- more recently, at the end of his own series, when all of Asgard was gone. Jack of Hearts- well, naturally, within the last couple of issues before he died. Hated to see him tossed away like that, but man-- could there be a more no-win scenario for any hero? She-Hulk- right after that Dell Rusk story, when she mutated, lost control, and wrecked that small town. OR after she ripped "Vision" in half at the beginning of Dis-Assembled. Killraven-- I'd have to re-read his old series again (from the future), but his whole STORYLINE was angst-ridden. Hmm-- speaking of the future-- how about Deathlok? The original Luther Manning version? Guy's life was completely destroyed by the government/military. Any reason he couldn't be pulled as a Future Member? (it's funny, I believe his series was originally set in the "future" of the mid-to-late 80's. . . ) Okay, okay-- I'll leave this alone again for a little while. . . HB |
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Post by thunderstrike78 on Oct 15, 2009 15:45:24 GMT -5
Some interesting ideas there, HB. Personally, I like contrasting the "lowest ebb" versions of the characters with some of the "higher ebb" versions of other characters. As far as Iron Man goes, I really liked the contrast of putting him in a box with the "recovered" Warbird--we'd get a chance to see Tony's reaction to someone that he himself helps to overcome alcoholism in his subjective future, and we'd also get to see Warbird 's reaction to seeing the man who helped her in his own alcoholic funk.
Some other possibilities:
A post-Secret Invasion Hank Pym interacting with a Roger Stern-era Wasp (who was arguably at her peak in terms of character development, and firmly "over" Hank).
How about an early, green, angry Hulk contrasted against the gray, Joe Fixit Hulk? (I think there was some limited interacting back in the heyday of the Peter David Hulk, but did they ever have to put their differences aside to work together? I think there's some mileage there.)
How about a pale, emotion-less Vision contrasted with a Scarlet Witch from just before their marriage? Or maybe a marriage-era Vision contrasted with a circa-Disassembled Scarlet Witch?
Lots of possibilities here. In fact, I like some of these possibilities better than my first list of suggestions.
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!!!