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Post by Shiryu on Jun 9, 2009 10:31:07 GMT -5
As per topic's title. Reading the "least favorite Avenger" thread I noticed that most of the names there are characters who were late additions and only stayed under one or two writers.
Are we just refractive towards new guys, or have they been mishandled in the past? What type of character is the best new recruit for you? Would you prefer a training period or straight into the field?
Discuss
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Post by Wonder Man 2 on Jun 9, 2009 10:46:25 GMT -5
I'm a little torn on this one, as there are a few solo heroes as well ones already in a group, that I have always wanted to see on one of the teams, like Storm. Yes, I know she's a member in Marvel Adventures, and formally a member of the Secret Avengers, but I would like to see her as a full time member of either the Mighty or New Avengers. As for solo heroes, I think it would be too sweet to see Cloak and Dagger, as well as the new Golithe and Thor Girl join the New Avengers team. However, I think for now I'll go with an established hero who's already on a team.
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 9, 2009 13:41:42 GMT -5
I can't get into this poll. I mean I certainly didn't like Reed and Sue as members. Also didn't like X-reject Deathcry, but I love Mantis and Swordsman, was ambivalent about every Spider Woman...
I think the writer has to connect the member to the team somehow and then make them a part of it. Like I certainly was rooting for Bill Foster to join at some point. Scott Lang as well, because of their ties to other members. However during Roger Stern's run he introduced Starfox and Monica Rambeau and I was happy with both, mainly because of his writing.
I think good writing just trumps the situation in almost all cases.
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Post by scottharris on Jun 9, 2009 14:54:58 GMT -5
I went with "a reformed criminal". I agree that a large part of what makes a new Avenger successful is simply how the writer handles them. I started reading during the Stern run and for me, Captain Marvel was a classic Avenger. Or, she should have been if editorial and later writers hadn't marginalized her to the point of turning her into a Stern pet character. If I had been a long time reader when she was introduced, though, I probably would have been irritated at first with how much focus she got.
On the other hand, there have been characters who seemed like great Avenger choices who then fell massively flat when they actually joined due to the writers. I thought Scott Lang as Ant Man was way overdue, but the way he was written by Geoff Johns he was a total waste. So a lot of it has to due with how the character is handled.
Having said all that, I like reformed villains because they are already known, established characters who have a history with one or more team members -- making them, in a sense, "classic" characters already -- but the fact that they were bad guys gives them inherent drama. It's been done enough that some of the broader arcs have already kind of been done to death -- trying to gain acceptance from the team/society, self-doubt, etc. -- but the specifics of how they deal with their personal past can still make for some interesting character interactions.
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Doctor Bong
West Coast Avenger
Master of Belly Dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 49
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 9, 2009 15:06:06 GMT -5
Upon reflecting on my choices, I decided to vote for "a former mainstay of another big group".
Let's see, I would like to see the return of the Hulk to the Avengers (preferably in his smart green variant) but not just for show, but to stay for a while.
Also, for the Thing to become officially an avenger for a while, probably while She-Hulk subs for him with the FF... . I always thought a great opportunity was missed story-wise when they finally made him a wacko only for him to inmediately return to the FF.
Like Wonder Man 2 said, I would like to see Thor Girl become an avenger too, at least while the true Thunder God isn't available, but I would love for them to "fix" that name... I just hate it... "Thor Girl", indeed...!
Another "girl" I would like to see on the team -and I realize I might become a candidate to be stoned in public for this...- is Squirrel Girl. Say what you will, this character just tickles my funny bone!
And there are 2 heroes from the Golden Age who I would like to see in the Avengers: the original Vision and Jack Frost. The latter must still be somewhere in the polar regions inside the stomach of that giant ice worm... surely he could be rescued like Cap once was.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 9, 2009 16:50:43 GMT -5
I kind of agree, Shiryu, that this maybe doesn't work solidly as a poll question, although it's a terrific topic for discussion. As has been stated above, what really does make a great Avenger is the character themself and how well the writer(s) connect with them.
While my least favorite would generally be characters created out of whole cloth to BECOME AVENGERS (ala Triathlon & SilverClaw), the two huge exceptions would be, of course, the Vision and Monica Rambeau. Love 'em both devotedly. So there's not really a solid case to make there.
What I've always liked has been bringing in peripheral heroes/villains to be members. Familiar, but not first-stringers.
That list is long, and some I like & some I hate, but it's a much more interesting use of the MU's depths than making it the Wolverine Channel 24/7. I would LOVE to see Machine Man become a true, steady member, for instance. Or possibly one of the other Inhumans (Triton's always been the nicest of that bunch). Or what about a different Asgardian? How about Sif? Oh, or Valkyrie? Perhaps one of the Morlocks? Or any of the slew of rather misshapen unfortunates in the periphery-- like the Aardvark? (I mean, he'd be a serious work-in-progress. . . ). Whatever happened to ol' Strong Guy from X-Factor? Did he die, or succumb to de-mutanizing or something? (Haven't followed X books in years. . .). What about that big fighter that took over the Thunderbolts title before its first cancellation? Couldn't Cannonball find the time to work two teams?
They're all folks w/ known stories, and yet there's still plenty to discover about them.
Am I wildly off-track, here?
HB
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Post by scottharris on Jun 9, 2009 21:07:54 GMT -5
I would like to mention that I also like mainstays from other comics becoming Avengers. Putting these characters in a new environment allows for a new spin to be put on old favorites. Having said that, some characters are Avenger material and some aren't. Sorry, but neither Wolverine or Spider-man are Avenger material in any way except for sales figures. But someone like the aforementioned Cannonball could work as an Avenger. If we're talking original New Mutants, I'd say Moonstar would be an even better Avenger. From the X-Men, I always thought Kitty Pryde was Avenger material, and in some ways would be a better Avenger than X-Man. From the Defenders, Valkyrie could be interesting also.
As for villains, I forgot to mention this in my original post, but in the last issue of the Gruenwald Captain America run, Cap has a long heart to heart with Batroc the Leaper where Batroc agrees to consider the possibility of reforming and becoming a good guy. Obviously, that never happened, but at the time I really wanted to see this. Batroc would have been an excellent Thunderbolt, though I'm not sure how well he would have worked out as an Avenger. But it might have been interesting, as he sort of combines aspects of both Swordsman and Black Panther and thus has a sort of classic Avengers feel to him. Heck, maybe he should become Ronin when Clint finally goes back to Hawkeye.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 10, 2009 9:01:16 GMT -5
As for villains, I forgot to mention this in my original post, but in the last issue of the Gruenwald Captain America run, Cap has a long heart to heart with Batroc the Leaper where Batroc agrees to consider the possibility of reforming and becoming a good guy. Obviously, that never happened, but at the time I really wanted to see this. Batroc would have been an excellent Thunderbolt, though I'm not sure how well he would have worked out as an Avenger. But it might have been interesting, as he sort of combines aspects of both Swordsman and Black Panther and thus has a sort of classic Avengers feel to him. Heck, maybe he should become Ronin when Clint finally goes back to Hawkeye. Oh. Wow. Scott, I totally meant to include Batroc in that list, and just lost track in the heat of typing. I kid you not. And I'd completely forgotten about Cap's heart-to-heart w/ him 'way back when. And he has such a strong you're-laughing-even-when-you-want-to-kill-him personality that he'd be a trouble-making DELIGHT in a team situation. Can you imagine how he'd endlessly rankle someone like USAgent? HB |
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 10, 2009 17:03:44 GMT -5
Hey, for me anything goes. Part of the reason I am an Avengers fan is I love the mix-and-match and the history and the return of old members, etc. etc.
And NOT liking every choice for membership goes with it. I winced every time I saw Dr Druid in the corner box.....(oh how I miss those corner boxes with the little heads....)
And I must admit, one of the reasons I was soooo excited about Bendis' NEW AVENGERS was whyen I saw Spider-woman was on the team (I always thought she would be a great additon.)
But in the end, she was a Skrull. And putting Spidey and Wolverine on the team was just stupid, and for sales. And Power Man and Iron Fist is a dumb idea, too.
but that's just my opinion/attitude. I'm more anti-Bendis now than against a particular choice for membership.
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Post by bobc on Jun 10, 2009 17:18:59 GMT -5
I agree with every word, Starfoxx.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 10, 2009 17:21:23 GMT -5
Let me throw one conditional consideration at you, though, Starfoxxx-- to see if it changes your perspective a bit:
If Spidey wasn't already overexposed; appearing in his own book four times a month; co-flagship character for Marvel, etc., etc.-- BUT was still the same character in every other way, would his membership bug you as much? If it were simply a matter of "how well does this kid play with others?" I'm trying to be (perhaps unnecessarily) objective, and imagine a completely level playing field, but I think he's just about ideal. EVERYONE in the MU knows him. They all do seem to like him. He provides a very Cap-like moral center (albeit in a different style), that the Avengers always needs to have. I've mentioned elsewhere that his whole "loner" stance seems forced, at best. He's a born team-player.
My opinion, of course. Disagree heartily at will-!
HB
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 10, 2009 17:59:17 GMT -5
Let me throw one conditional consideration at you, though, Starfoxxx-- to see if it changes your perspective a bit: If Spidey wasn't already overexposed; appearing in his own book four times a month; co-flagship character for Marvel, etc., etc.-- BUT was still the same character in every other way, would his membership bug you as much? If it were simply a matter of "how well does this kid play with others?" I'm trying to be (perhaps unnecessarily) objective, and imagine a completely level playing field, but I think he's just about ideal. EVERYONE in the MU knows him. They all do seem to like him. He provides a very Cap-like moral center (albeit in a different style), that the Avengers always needs to have. I've mentioned elsewhere that his whole "loner" stance seems forced, at best. He's a born team-player. My opinion, of course. Disagree heartily at will-! HB His stance as a loner is forced. That's why the character is so good. Pete wants to be liked and a part of something, yet he's often unable to be, which is why the reading public responds to him so well. Was there any more boring period in Spider Man existence than when he was married to a "supermodel/actress" and had a best selling book? Oh yeah, I can relate to that... (Note I'm not against the marriage to MJ, but rather that she suddenly became Cindy Crawford). So when a character like Spider Man, who is completely defined by outcast status, suddenly becomes a member of the most respected team in the Marvel Universe it takes away from what makes him special. The one team I would've liked to have seen Spidey on? The GLA. I'm sure we all have friends we maybe went to high school with and we've kind of outgrown and maybe aren't people we really have much in common with, but they're good guys or girls and we can't find it in our hearts to be mean to them and ignore them. That would be the perfect place for Peter. He would want to be nice and be buddies because the GLA are so earnest, but then he'd end up fighting the Gamecock with them and Spidey would just get embarrassed. Then one of them would bring up the Hypno Hustler or the Big Wheel and Spidey'd get annoyed. It's really a place where he'd a perfect fit because of his character. But on the Avengers? Spidey's just a sore thumb sticking out. |
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 10, 2009 18:17:07 GMT -5
That's a bit mean on Spidey ^^'' Personality wise, he is not too different from Hawkeye. Powers wise, he is probably above two thirds of the people who have been Avengers, has battled the likes of the Stranger, the Absorbing Man, the Taskmaster and Firelord, and has an awful lot of experience. He has a long history with the team since #11, and everytime he was a guest star during the classic Avengers run, he proved to be a useful addition and didn't slow them down. I agree that the main thing working against him is that being part of the world's best superhero team doesn't really fit with the picture of a constantly troubled guy, but after all it's not like every Avenger hasn't had his own share of personal troubles while being on the team. Obviously this is New Avengers notwithstanding, he hasn't really made any difference in the book (but then, no-one has  ) You are probably right, but hopefully the poll's options nevertheless provide food for thoughts  |
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 10, 2009 19:21:56 GMT -5
That's a bit mean on Spidey ^^'' Personality wise, he is not too different from Hawkeye. Powers wise, he is probably above two thirds of the people who have been Avengers, has battled the likes of the Stranger, the Absorbing Man, the Taskmaster and Firelord, and has an awful lot of experience. He has a long history with the team since #11, and everytime he was a guest star during the classic Avengers run, he proved to be a useful addition and didn't slow them down. I agree that the main thing working against him is that being part of the world's best superhero team doesn't really fit with the picture of a constantly troubled guy, but after all it's not like every Avenger hasn't had his own share of personal troubles while being on the team. Obviously this is New Avengers notwithstanding, he hasn't really made any difference in the book (but then, no-one has ) You are probably right, but hopefully the poll's options nevertheless provide food for thoughts But Spidey's gotta stay in that realm to work as a character. The minute he's accepted, he stops being the guy 90% of the world can relate to. Unlike Hawkeye who can grow and change in the Avengers, Spider Man will be essentially the same character in twenty years. Hawkeye, because he's a more peripheral character can change and grow in the team. Spidey can't. And Shiryu, I agree that the poll works as a thought provoker, just not as a question for me, that's why I'm an active participant in the discussion but haven't voted! |
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 10, 2009 20:28:04 GMT -5
But Spidey's gotta stay in that realm to work as a character. The minute he's accepted, he stops being the guy 90% of the world can relate to. Unlike Hawkeye who can grow and change in the Avengers, Spider Man will be essentially the same character in twenty years. Hawkeye, because he's a more peripheral character can change and grow in the team. Spidey can't. ! Oh, Aaargh-- you've made a darned good point, there (about Spidey's not being able to grow and change in the Avengers). I must concede that that's the very reason I've never been an avid fan of the long-hallowed "Big Three" being there (Cap, Thor, Iron Man). As mainstay icons, their major developments are going to happen largely in their own books. In the Avengers we largely just get the (considerable) thrill of seeing them in action with their peers. Much as I enjoy Spidey in the group setting, that would of course be the route he'd eventually take-- and would likely get stale. The one remedy for this would be if the NA remain an un-funded, volunteer fire dept-like organization-- as it is now. Then there's no respite from the on-going problems of the real world. HB |
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 10, 2009 20:36:27 GMT -5
I've never been opposed to the idea of Spidey as an Avenger except for one thing. He's so overexposed, I don't see where he has time. It has nothing to do with the character though - I can accept him as part of a group as long as he is written well (Ah, there's the rub.) Wolverine is another story. The X-Men have always been a group that operated on the fringes of society and Logan was on the fringe of those fringes. Having him in the Avengers, we have a problem. Add to that the overexposure issue and it's just too much.
On general principal, I don't mind new members but it bothers me that there are so many members out there that aren't getting any attention. I don't want to see more than one or two new members at the most coming on to a team because I'd rather lesser used folks like Hell-cat, Pulsar, Black Knight, Arachne, Living Lightning, Tigra, or Sandman (Who I've said before I liked better as a hero and I actually think he would have been a good Avenger if he'd been given a better chance) than a team full of newbies. The sudden transformation worked after only 16 issues with a then total of 9 members. It doesn't work the same way more than 40 years later with about 100 members.
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 10, 2009 21:08:22 GMT -5
But Spidey's gotta stay in that realm to work as a character. The minute he's accepted, he stops being the guy 90% of the world can relate to. Unlike Hawkeye who can grow and change in the Avengers, Spider Man will be essentially the same character in twenty years. Hawkeye, because he's a more peripheral character can change and grow in the team. Spidey can't. That's definitely a very good point. My only counter argument is that I don't know how much it's still possible to identify in Peter. It was one thing when he was a high school or college student, with problems with girlfriends, family, rent and so on, but most of those themes are long gone now, even after the OMD reset. Moreover, I think that that side of him has been explored so much over the years, that a complete change like Avengers membership could provide more room for evolution than his usual settings. Seeing how he reacts when the public opinion is not so much against him for a change, how he can adapt his fighting style to group situations, how he can improve his scientific skills while staying with the likes of Pym or Tony are all fairly new and un-explored directions. Written properly, it would be great as far as I'm concerned. I completely agree on Wolverine, having him is like having the Punisher around, weird. Regarding overexposition, besides NA currently Spidey stars in one book only (which comes out almost every other day, but still ^^), so it could have been the right time for this experiment. I agree that when he is already dealing with 2 or 3 books/situations a month, adding another one would make clones a necessity! PS your final sentence reminds me of a question: how many Avengers are there in total? Ignoring the dead ones, I can only think to 30/35ish |
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Post by betaraybill on Jun 10, 2009 21:29:52 GMT -5
If written well I'd like to see Nightcrawler with the team of official Avengers (whatever that means...) but that would be a stretch and alot would depend on the roster as a whole. In fact, forget I said anything...
I like Spider Man in the Avengers. If written well I'd like to see him stay -- yadda yadda yadda
I have one of the more radical views of the characters in the MU in that I want to see them change as they grow via their life experiences. Afterall, some of them have been through some powerful emotional situations. Spider Man is one of those characters.
He's been involved in so many important, earth shaking arcs that he absolutely should be well respected, not just among his peers, but by the general population... which flies in the face of the traditional Spidey dynamic.
He's gifted enough intellectually NOT to be a struggling photographer anymore. He's proven his heart to the extent that he should be seen as a cornerstone of the superhero community.
I just think, as awesome as his dynamic has been, he's evolved and matured into something else. I don't think Marvel should fight that.
Just my 2 cents on Pete.
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 10, 2009 21:31:28 GMT -5
But Spidey's gotta stay in that realm to work as a character. The minute he's accepted, he stops being the guy 90% of the world can relate to. Unlike Hawkeye who can grow and change in the Avengers, Spider Man will be essentially the same character in twenty years. Hawkeye, because he's a more peripheral character can change and grow in the team. Spidey can't. That's definitely a very good point. My only counter argument is that I don't know how much it's still possible to identify in Peter. It was one thing when he was a high school or college student, with problems with girlfriends, family, rent and so on, but most of those themes are long gone now, even after the OMD reset. Moreover, I think that that side of him has been explored so much over the years, that a complete change like Avengers membership could provide more room for evolution than his usual settings. Seeing how he reacts when the public opinion is not so much against him for a change, how he can adapt his fighting style to group situations, how he can improve his scientific skills while staying with the likes of Pym or Tony are all fairly new and un-explored directions. Written properly, it would be great as far as I'm concerned. I completely agree on Wolverine, having him is like having the Punisher around, weird. Regarding overexposition, besides NA currently Spidey stars in one book only (which comes out almost every other day, but still ^^), so it could have been the right time for this experiment. I agree that when he is already dealing with 2 or 3 books/situations a month, adding another one would make clones a necessity! PS your final sentence reminds me of a question: how many Avengers are there in total? Ignoring the dead ones, I can only think to 30/35ish I dunno, I read the Spidey 24/7 storyline and it seems he's pretty much up the creek. The father of old enemy, JJJ is dating Aunt May, the cops are up his tush royally thanks to new Mayor Jameson. His new roommate is a pain and the public hates him for screwing up a game at Yankee Stadium, and he doesn't seem to have any money. Kinda sounds like he's up sh*t's creek to me... He's out of High School, but definitely still has all the problems of a mid twenties guy. I don't think Pete could ever get anything good in Avengers because he is marvel's flagship guy and his legacy is just too important. I have less problems with Wolverine actually. His background is so fluid, there's a lot more to do with him. Plus he's so extreme, that even tempering him a bit would be interesting. I would love for him to take a no killing pledge and see how hard it is for him to defend but not kill. His abilities don't really lend themselves to defensive so it would be interesting to change Wolverine's perspective even slightly. And I did an informal count and came up with about fifty formal Avengers and a dozen more informal members of dubious membership. |
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 11, 2009 7:51:55 GMT -5
Both B-R-Bill and Shiryu are making a point that I was intending to get to in my post last night (but had to yield the computer to Son of HB so he could check out Red vs Blue. . . oy).
While the core concept for Spidey was/is that he's the "Everyman" super-hero, the guy w/ real-world troubles, etc.-- the truth is that people do indeed grow and evolve as they wrestle with those troubles and do or don't overcome them. And I think that's been Spidey's enduring appeal over the years. The fact that he's human, and has grown from being an awkward, isolated, high-school science geek into a confident, compassionate, hyper-responsible young man (I seem to recall a few years back that there was an editorial decision to anchor his age at 29 years old-- could be mistaken, though) is what makes him more relatable, I think, than any of the workaday situational conflicts he's encountered. Those are key to the book and the character, of course-- but they exist no matter what. If he's married, if they have kids, if he's a teacher, an Avenger, a photographer, a student, if he drives, tries to buy a house, etc, etc-- there will always be real-world headaches.
I do tend to agree that having MJ become a famous, rich model & his having a successful book provided a little too much deus ex machina relief from their tribulations-- as did moving into Avengers Mansion-- but those kinds of devices can be removed without having to reboot the whole character's continuity.
You know what would have been a "real world" issue for him to deal with? One that we all can relate to, and identify with? Having May die, bless her heart. Simply of the complications of old age--- completely disconnected from the world of Super. That's where we see growth.
Now, I don't know if this resolves the issue of whether or not we'd see that growth as an Avengers member. I think that's still a valid concern. Again, if it works for Cap, Thor & IM, it should theoretically work for Spidey too. (I'm straddling the fence on that, at best.)
HB
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 11, 2009 9:07:13 GMT -5
Both B-R-Bill and Shiryu are making a point that I was intending to get to in my post last night (but had to yield the computer to Son of HB so he could check out Red vs Blue. . . oy). While the core concept for Spidey was/is that he's the "Everyman" super-hero, the guy w/ real-world troubles, etc.-- the truth is that people do indeed grow and evolve as they wrestle with those troubles and do or don't overcome them. And I think that's been Spidey's enduring appeal over the years. The fact that he's human, and has grown from being an awkward, isolated, high-school science geek into a confident, compassionate, hyper-responsible young man (I seem to recall a few years back that there was an editorial decision to anchor his age at 29 years old-- could be mistaken, though) is what makes him more relatable, I think, than any of the workaday situational conflicts he's encountered. Those are key to the book and the character, of course-- but they exist no matter what. If he's married, if they have kids, if he's a teacher, an Avenger, a photographer, a student, if he drives, tries to buy a house, etc, etc-- there will always be real-world headaches. I do tend to agree that having MJ become a famous, rich model & his having a successful book provided a little too much deus ex machina relief from their tribulations-- as did moving into Avengers Mansion-- but those kinds of devices can be removed without having to reboot the whole character's continuity. You know what would have been a "real world" issue for him to deal with? One that we all can relate to, and identify with? Having May die, bless her heart. Simply of the complications of old age--- completely disconnected from the world of Super. That's where we see growth. Now, I don't know if this resolves the issue of whether or not we'd see that growth as an Avengers member. I think that's still a valid concern. Again, if it works for Cap, Thor & IM, it should theoretically work for Spidey too. (I'm straddling the fence on that, at best.) HB the forever 29 was Superman I believe... As someone once pointed out, everyday there's someone who's reading their first issue of spider man. That someone needs to find the character relatively accessible, because Spidey is the franchise. You can kill Iron Man for two or three years, wipe out Thor and have him disappear for two years, but a MU without Spidey? Well we all saw what happened during the clone thing...It tanked. I'm not saying I want a dull character who can't change. It just seems that Spidey as the epicenter of the MU tends to change the very least. Or change doesn't last very long with him. (Look how fast they put his secret ID back in the closet!!) |
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 11, 2009 9:31:48 GMT -5
I think we are, in fact, not entirely disagreeing. Yep, the character needs to be solidly accessible to attract new readers. The juggling act is that he needs to keep growing personally, so he won't become hopelessly stale, and lose long-time readers. That's why I'm thinking, keep the existing growth that's rooted in real life experiences (marriage, changing jobs, family crises-- all the things we go through everyday). And make an editorial mandate to focus on that realm as the source of many of Pete's woes. There's plenty to be mined there without backtracking and covering the same ground all over again. That's actually worse than stale, because it all rings false. Will Pete find a different girlfriend and eventually marry her? We've been down that angst road already. It turns almost every post-BND choice into little more than a "What If-?" exercise. And if Pete makes similar life choices this time around. . . then we're watching a re-run. Rather than giving the writer freedom, it's almost handcuffed him into NOT making many logical, character-driven choices.
I'm liking this discussion. I'm having to think out of my depth a bit. Probably good for the ol' grey-matter.
Many thanks-
HB
P.S.-- Wow, yes. Every time someone reveals a long-concealed secret identity, it's a disaster. Clear back to Cap & the early X-Men in the 60's. And then putting the genie back in is even MORE horrible. "Doc, it hurts when I do this!" "Then don't do that. . . "
HB
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Doctor Bong
West Coast Avenger
Master of Belly Dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 49
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 11, 2009 11:48:00 GMT -5
More people I would like to see on the team: Nightcrawler and the Valkyrie as well. Yes!
Also: Dazzler, Sasquatch and the Blazing Skull.
Aaand... Fastforward. He's an obscure character created by Mark Gruenwald who, as far as I can tell, has only appeared briefly on the pages of "Quasar". He was a superfast humanoid alien who had amnesia. He dressed in red and yellow and, of course, Gruenwald's wink to the reader was that he's supposed to be Barry Allen fresh from Crisis on Infinite Earths; only, insteadof dying he was stranded in the MU and rendered amnesiac...
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Post by bobc on Jun 11, 2009 13:27:35 GMT -5
I agree that Valkyrie would be a good Avenger
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 11, 2009 13:28:26 GMT -5
Ha- "Buried Alien"-- yes. That was a very cool, fun, quick story. Almost made me misty-eyed that the Marvel writer was quietly acknowledging that NO ONE in the MU could keep up with the late-and-only "fastest man alive".
HB
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 11, 2009 14:02:17 GMT -5
I never heard of Gruenwald's alien before, but that sounds very cool!
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 12, 2009 3:56:25 GMT -5
I dunno, I read the Spidey 24/7 storyline and it seems he's pretty much up the creek. The father of old enemy, JJJ is dating Aunt May, the cops are up his tush royally thanks to new Mayor Jameson. His new roommate is a pain and the public hates him for screwing up a game at Yankee Stadium, and he doesn't seem to have any money. Kinda sounds like he's up sh*t's creek to me... He's out of High School, but definitely still has all the problems of a mid twenties guy. I don't think Pete could ever get anything good in Avengers because he is marvel's flagship guy and his legacy is just too important. I agree on that. However it brings the point of what makes readers identify in Spidey, and of who does it. My impression is always been that one of the keys of Spider-Man's success was that he was a student, living in the same environment of the readers. Everyone who had annoying classmates a school, or a crush on the impossible girl/boy could relate to him. But now he is a guy in his early thirties, which makes him too old for the average teenager to identify in, while people closer to his age are probably past identifying in comic books' characters. More importantly, a life that keeps, well, sucking, despite how hard one tries doesn't send a great message to the readers. It's like saying "try as hard as you want, things will never improve anyway". Which is why I think he does need to succeed, at least from time to time. Someone who identifies himself in Spider-Man probably wants to see a guy who more or less has his same problems, struggles and in the end still manages to come out triumphant, so to have what psychologists call a "projected victory" if not a real one. The way things are now, people may be more attracted by Norman Osborn ^^' Which, going back to the topic, is why I think he does fit as an Avenger. Someone who started as ostracized by everyone and now is a member of Earth's most glorious team of superheroes is a great message, and it's also logical given that the Avengers by now know what he is worth. Besides, Avengers' membership doesn't really equate to happy problem-free life. Beast, Wonder Man, Scarlet, Tony, Hank all had some sort of personal problem going on during their stays, be it feelings of inequacy or something else. Nightcrawler could be very interesting. No one has quite his powers and he could bring in some interesting storylines. Talking of X-Men, I would also be curious with Gambit, if only to see him and Hawkeye clash and argue. |
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Post by bobc on Jun 12, 2009 8:21:01 GMT -5
I could go for Nightcrawler being an Avenger.
But seriously guys--aren't there already like 200 Avengers? Isn't that enough? I know we're just discussing things theoretically, but I would hate to see the Avengers having 500 members while great unused Avengers members float in limbo.
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Doctor Bong
West Coast Avenger
Master of Belly Dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 49
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 12, 2009 8:55:17 GMT -5
I could go for Nightcrawler being an Avenger. But seriously guys--aren't there already like 200 Avengers? Isn't that enough? I know we're just discussing things theoretically, but I would hate to see the Avengers having 500 members while great unused Avengers members float in limbo. Well, that's certainly one way to see it. But, on the other hand, if the Legion of Superheroes can manage, I don't see why the Avengers can't (just get George Perez to draw them ;D). You could picture it as a rich mine from where to pick this or that treasure (character) to play with her/him for a while. I think all those great "old-time" avengers will always be there waiting for good writers with ideas and an afinity for them, no matter how many new characters we add to the mix. I see no reason why there couldn't be 2, 3 or 4 branches of the Avengers located at different areas of the US or the world or, we could take the approach once already proposed by Byrne (I THINK it was Byrne) but really only developed by the writer who followed Busiek on the Avengers (was it Johns...?); that is, using rotating teams of Avengers according to the need for them and their geographical availability. Or do you think. guys, that the end result of all this would be a group which would prove too unfocused...? |
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 12, 2009 12:42:03 GMT -5
Current series nonwithstanding, there should only be some 44/46 Avengers around (excluding Rick Jones, Reed, Sue and the old Guardians of the Galaxy). I think the JLA has more Leaguers in comparison.
It would be tricky, too quick a rotation would make it hard to include proper character-driven subplots, they would just be fighting the baddie of the month. But if each roster had enough spotlight, like 6 or 7 issues, maybe it could work.
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