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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 6, 2009 14:53:25 GMT -5
After rereading the entire Avengers series (With the exception of Heroes Reborn which I've never read and New Avengers which I don't count) I began my rereading of the Wackos. Boy do I miss those guys.
First off, I'd like to say that the time travel story early on was one of the best examples of how to tell a complicated multi-part story. Each issue added a new element and moved the story along at a brisk pace. In the end, everything was resolved with the exception of Mockingbird revealing her part in Phantom Rider's death. That was, however, not forgotted since it was setting up stories to come. Sheer brilliance in storytelling.
Second, I'd like to commend the team for the outstanding accomplishment of going 84 issues without an appearance by Spider-man and 87 issues without an appearance by Wolverine. It can be done!
Finally, I'd like to comment on yet another example of Bendis' lack of attention to details. Immediately after Wanda's twins were revealed to be a manifestation of her powers, Agatha Harkness did indeed wipe the event from her memory because she was afraid she couldn't handle it. However, within a couple of issues, Wanda had again remembered the twins and referred to them many times throughout the rest of the series. Therefore the entire basis of Disassembled being that Jan carelessly let the truth slip to Wanda and caused her to go crazy and kill Agatha Harkness for erasing her memory Makes no sense. Wanda already knew. Of course, this series also has repeated examples of everyone's love and admiration of Hank Pym and totally being over his previous breakdowns so...
Before I get accused of being just a sucker for anything from days gone by, I will acknowledge that, like any series, the West Coast Avengers did have its faults. Most notable was the destruction of the Vision, the madness of the Scarlet Witch, and total dropping of the ball with the story in which Tigra became cat-like again and had to be shrunk by Hank Pym. She just ran around the compound for about a year and story just fizzled. I really think they had some big plan but then got busy with other things and just forgot she was even out there.
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Post by betaraybill on Jun 6, 2009 18:30:43 GMT -5
I'm very fond of AWC. The 4 part mini is one of my favorites. I'm not crazy about Milgrom's art, but I like the opening arc with Goliath III, Ultron, Man Ape and Grim Reaper.
I wiki'd Master Pandemonium because I've lost track of alot of characters this past decade or so and was disappointed that he's no longer a villain. Even with the concept of his soul being in 5 pieces (and finding them restores him) I think Mephisto could've kept him a powerful pawn some how. It's not Mephisto is straight forward with people.
And... Mockingbird wasn't a SKRULL! I'm serious! (as I start to twitch...)
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Post by Wonder Man 2 on Jun 8, 2009 11:27:18 GMT -5
As my favorite superhero team (mainly because it had most of my favorite characters like USAgent, Wonderman, Wasp, and Hank Pym) I was disappointed that it ended the way it did, with Cap and Vision blaming all the Avengers' problems on them' although I liked how Wanda told Cap where to stick it. AWC is the only comioc that truly ever did Wonder Man and and Tigra any justice, not to mention that it was one of the first series outside of New York that did as well as it did. Now while I was disappointed that it ended, their are signs that a new LA team may be in the making, due to the scene in Mighty Avengers 24, where the Avengers Compound had been rebuilt. I can see Pepper and Tony starting up a new team there. Just wishful thinking on my part, but who knows?
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 9, 2009 21:46:31 GMT -5
As a follow up to my previous post here, I just read WCA annual # 7. The backup story is a look back at the Scarlet Witch's history in the book. I love this quote by her: "Our Agatha Harkness briefly erased from my mind all memory of my children to spare me pain. I'm so glad she soon realized that that was a mistake, however much I sorrowed at my loss. For pain is a part of living--just as much as joy is." I sure wish Bendis had read this.
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Post by scottharris on Jun 10, 2009 0:09:40 GMT -5
I don't man to blaspheme, but I have to say I don't think WCA was all that great a series. It started off well, with some good stuff from Englehart in the first 25 issues. Even these fell short of classic, though thanks to the boring at best Milgrom art. After this point, the series went downhill, ranging from forgettable to downright destructive (see: John Byrne the Antichrist). All in all, though i have a bit of a soft spot for it because it came out right when I started reading Avengers, I have to say te series as a whole was pretty mediocre.
As for Bendis, it's pretty much par for the course. When Disassembled came out I, like a lot of fans, was pretty upset because it felt like he was intentionally disrespecting the characters. Not in the decision to get rid of or kill many of team (which I have argued in the past was necessary from a creative and editorial point of view) but in the way he went about doing it. Now, however, I've realized it wasn't malicious at all, it was just laziness. I'm convinced the guy doesn't do his research, and when he does he just ignores it if it contradicts his vision; plus, he just seems to throw together plots without seeming to worry about how they hold together. I'm betting he needed a hook to explain his Witch story, flipped through a stack of back issues looking for something, and went with this without really reading all the relevant stories.
Ah, whatever.
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Post by scottharris on Jun 21, 2009 19:10:12 GMT -5
I should say that my references to John Byrne as the antichrist are a shout out to uber Avengers and Hawkeye fan Lonni Holland, who always refers to Byrne as "John Byrne the Antichrist" due to his wrecking Vision in WCA.
I actually was a fairly big fan of Byrne at the time, due to his Alpha Flight and FF runs. I started reading both right at the end of his runs and I though he was great and that both series went in the crapper as soon as he left. So I was pretty excited when he took over WCA (and Avengers as well circa #305 or so). But his Avengers was forgettable, his WCA was ruinous and I have to say I don't think he's really done anything particularly relevant since. His Superman / Man of Steel stuff didn't do a whole lot for me at the time either. It's too bad, because during the early/mid-80's he really looked like he was going to be the man, but his FF and Alpha Flight remain the high points of his writing career, just as X-Men is the high point of his artistic career. It's all been downhill since.
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Post by scottharris on Jun 21, 2009 19:12:12 GMT -5
I also wanted to mention that WCA did have, in my opinion, one legitimately classic issue, which is WCA #7. This is the issue with Ultron Mark 12, the Ultron who evolved past his hatred of Hank and embraced him as father, then died saving Hank from the enraged Ultron-11. Just a great, great issue with a classic Hank/Ultron tale.
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Post by sharkar on Jun 21, 2009 19:38:18 GMT -5
I'm betting he needed a hook to explain his Witch story, flipped through a stack of back issues looking for something, and went with this without really reading all the relevant stories. That sure seems to be the case, as you and spiderwasp have noted in this thread. I'm reading the JLA/Avengers crossover now--originally published 2003/2004, so pretty close to Disassembled--and in it, both Wanda and Vizh are very much aware of Tommy and Billy. I know Bendis or someone somewhere has rationalized it by saying Wanda's growing madness caused her to forget her kids over a period of months...but since no one else seemed to know this was happening, why would Jan think she (J) was revealing a secret by mentioning the children? Wanda and Jan have been friends for years, so sure, Jan could have felt bad she'd made an insensitive remark; but instead Jan acted like she'd revealed a deep, dark secret.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 22, 2009 0:04:21 GMT -5
I also wanted to mention that WCA did have, in my opinion, one legitimately classic issue, which is WCA #7. This is the issue with Ultron Mark 12, the Ultron who evolved past his hatred of Hank and embraced him as father, then died saving Hank from the enraged Ultron-11. Just a great, great issue with a classic Hank/Ultron tale. That's a wonderful story, and was a nice unexpected turn in direction (Englehart seems to excel at that). I know he had plans to revive Mark at some point but never got to it before he left WCA. I would have liked to have seen Pym introduce Mark to the rest of the Avengers!
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Sept 2, 2009 21:23:28 GMT -5
Does anybody else remember the WCA encounter with Dr. Doom? I only have part of the story, but I think it was right at the end of Englehart's run. Not sure. The story leaves me dying for the rest of it. It's my favorite Avengers/Dr. Doom encounter, hitting all the high points better than the other encounters from the main title. It's the Avengers in Latveria, and the battle is so good.
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Post by defdave on Sept 28, 2009 15:23:09 GMT -5
(see: John Byrne the Antichrist) WOW. I'm stunned by the anti-Byrne sentiments I've been seeing... Milgrom, though, hasn't held up at all. I would never say his art was bad... it's just so anticeptic and clean and sterile. His stuff would've fit in better in 1950 perhaps. Today, with the benefit of hindsight and a greater appreciation of Avengers history, I can see why fans heap so much disdain, if not venom, on Byrne's West Coast Avengers run. But I have to offer some degree of a defense. At the time Byrne took over the book, I was SO SICK of Milgrom's art that Byrne's arrival was VERY WELCOME indeed. Plots be damned, the change in artwork was a DESPERATELY needed breath of fresh air. Only years later would I regret Englehart's departure from the series. I still think Byrne made a good choice to bring USAgent in as a foil to Hawkeye's leadership... ironic, since this was essentially the same role Hawkeye played opposite of Cap in the Quartet days. Let's don't forget this was the run that brought Jim Hammond back into the MU. I thought it was a wonderful retcon and remember looking at that panel of Vision and the Torch shaking hands and staring at it with a sense of amazement. (Years later, with a changed perspective, I also enjoyed Kurt Busiek properly restoring Vision's origin in AVENGERS FOREVER) And, to my knowledge, John Byrne-- in this run-- became the first writer to ever pick up on the idea of Wonder Man loving Wanda and run with it (the idea was introduced YEARS earlier by Gerry Conway, but nobody ever did anything with it). It made so much sense of me: if Vision fell in love with Wanda, then OF COURSE Simon would also be so inclined! It was such a good idea that Kurt used it in the early issues of Vol. 3, although I'm betting he'd rather give credit to Conway than Byrne). I was even disappointed when Byrne left because he did so very abruptly (in a tantrum, mad at editorial) leaving some things (Tigra changing into more of a cat, his hints of Hank and Jan reconciling) forever forgotten. It's interesting that the overall lasting impression of the series is one of mediocrity considering that it had a high rate of writer continuity. Meaning, in 102 issues there were basically only three writers (*)... and two of them were Steve Englehart and Roy Thomas, only two of the all-time classic Avenger writers ever! And between them, we get the series artistic peak with Byrne who easily runs circles around Al Milgrom and Dave Ross (or whoever that guy was). The worst thing to come out Byrne's run was that the Vision was left in his boring white body for several years until Bob Harras restored it in the main title. (And that image Byrne drew of a dissected and dismantled Vision proves he forgot Vision was a SYNTHEZOID with organic parts!) The cool thing about his Vision story, though, is that it directly played off elements set up in the MUCH earlier Avengers #233... where John Byrne is credited with a plot assist! (*)= yes, I do remember Dann Thomas being credited alongside her husband.
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Post by sharkar on Oct 2, 2009 13:22:39 GMT -5
...the idea of Wonder Man loving Wanda and run with it (the idea was introduced YEARS earlier by Gerry Conway, but nobody ever did anything with it). "Criminal Intent" Conway did resurrect Simon, but I think Jim Shooter must also receive some credit here; he developed the Wanda-Simon romantic tension/complications when he became the Avengers regular writer circa #156 or so.
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Post by sharkar on Oct 15, 2009 17:32:59 GMT -5
And I just remembered another exploration of the Wanda-Simon attraction; granted, it was in a What If? story, but what can I say? What Ifs! (and DC Imaginary Tales) are my guilty pleasure. Anyway, Byrne's WCA/AWC arc during which Simon revealed he was in love with Wanda started in early 1989. This development was picked up on some months later in What If? #5 (v. 2), also 1989--Jim Valentino wrote/drew a story that included a Wanda and Simon romance. The story has a great cast, including the original Avengers, the Kooky Quartet, Magneto, the Vision, and others. The scripting ranges from comic (Wonder Man asks Wanda out for dinner, and she says she always dines with her brother; so Simon says let's make it a threesome) to melodramatic (The Watcher: "None was ever aware that the father had killed the son and was, in turn, killed by the daughter.") and everything in-between. Just a great story.
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