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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 15, 2009 22:11:17 GMT -5
IMHO, over the last decade, or so, not only has the MU become a very different place but so have many of the characters, and not in a good way. I've compiled a list of characters that, again IMO, have been badly damaged due to the way they've been handled. You may think that some have actually been improved upon - I don't know. Here are my reasons for including each of these characters on the list.
Captain America - I'm not really including Cap because of his death but because of the way he stopped being the person that everyone in the MU looked up to. He was made out to be the villain by many in Civil War. Personally, I was on his side but I still don't think he handled things the way the Cap of old would have.
Ironman- Tony Stark has become more interested in controlling the world than Dr. Doom and his arrogance and self-serving actions have made him completely unlikeable.
Scarlet Witch - Hopefully Dan Slott has a plan on how to restore her but otherwise, the damage is obvious.
Hawkeye- First he died, then returned and for no apparant reason became Ronin. For the first time in the history of the MU, I find Clint Barton completely uninteresting.
Vision- I don't completely dislike the New Avengers version but I miss our old Vision. He just isn't the same.
Spider-man - "Brand New Day" ended my days of buying Spider-man. I have a couple of times in the past when I've stopped buying his books for financial reasons but I always found it difficult to pass them up. These days, I wouldn't want them if someone offered them to me for free.
Hank Pym - Hank went through a dark time a long time ago and, thanks to Busiek, completely put it behind him - or did he. All of a sudden, everyone started to portray him as a loser that no one could stand or forgive. This is another one I'm hoping Slott can save.
Wasp - Like Cap, I didn't include Jan on this list because of her death (Senseless though it was) but because she suddenly became a drunken ho who ruined Hank's life. All her growth as a competent super-hero and leader went right out the window, again for no reason.
Beast - Cat-beast, nuff said.
Mary Jane Watson - Now that she and Peter were never married, does she even hold any relevence in the MU anymore?
Quicksilver - Pietro is another character who has had his dark times and worked his way back to the light. He has delved so far into the dark side now though that it's hard to imagine him ever really be redemmed.
Hulk - World War Hulk - again, nuff said.
Mr. Fantastic - Who is this man? The Reed I grew up with would never have been a party to the Negative Zone prison, the cloning of Thor, or the crazy thing he's had going recently with that other diminsion thing that I don't even really understand. He's become almost as bad as Ironman. Recent issues of FF have shown a side of him that's a little closer to his old self, so maybe there's still hope.
Daredevil - I haven't read any Daredevil stuff in a while but from what I've read about him, I'm not even sure who he is? Is he in some other costume? Is someone else in his? If DD does show up for a guest appearance, I don't even know.
Gwen Stacy - So, Gwen Stacy was a very *friendly* person who slept with Norman Osborne and had his children. Oh brother.
Bucky Barnes - The Bucky Barnes I grew up with was the very picture of innocence and heroism who was martyred with an early demise. Oops, guess not. He's actually a killing machine who never died. That whole thing was just a lie.
I was originally going to have you choose 3 for this, but then I realized I couldn't keep it to 3 myself so my 5 are Ironman, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Gwen Stacy, and Hank Pym.
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 15, 2009 23:13:25 GMT -5
I ran out of votes with the first 5 choices.  But seriously, I voted Cap, IM, SW, Hawk, and Bucky. I very easily could add Mr. Fantastic, Gwen Stacy, Spider-Man, and "other-Captain Marvell." It's a shame to see all these great characters being run into the ground. First and foremost, I blame Joe Quesada for his failure to protect the characters and demand quality. Unfortunately, Marvel is no longer character-driven, but creator-driven. Creators are doing whatever they please with Joe Q's blessing, and Marvel is total garbage today because of it. RSC |
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 16, 2009 12:11:49 GMT -5
I voted for Hawk, Vision, Gwen Stacy, and Hank Pym. I also voted Other for Norman Osborn. What a great character to have left dead back in 1973. The legacy of Harry, then Dr. Bart Hamilton, and then the Hobgoblin was perfect. Why, oh why, did they ruin one of the greatest Marvel moments of all time??
And Vison and Hawkeye were as much the face of the Avengers as Cap ever was. And poor Hank...
I could go on and on. Five votes weren't enough. You should have had an "All of the Above" choice ;D !!
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 16, 2009 16:44:03 GMT -5
Five votes weren't enough. You should have had an "All of the Above" choice ;D !! As my initial breakdown probably tells you, I couldn't agree more but then I wanted it to be a challenge. Now for the real challenge, do the other poll. The one where you vote for 5 characters that have been improved. You may tell me there that 5 votes are too many. |
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Post by eureka on Mar 16, 2009 18:10:48 GMT -5
My five picks were Gwen Stacy (though I did not read that JMS story. The big retcon was the reason for me to leave Amazing on the shelf), Hank Pym (My problem is that I have read the first 150 Avengers and cannot identify Shooter's and today's Pym in a line-up as being the real deal), Scarlet Witch (doesn't have the talent to reshape reality and she does practice Chaos magic regardless of what Bendis has Dr. Stange say), Vision (seems writers prefer Vision as either disabled or in a crate than as a powerhouse very human android) and my Other vote was for Greer.
Greer began as a women's libber, one of the brightest minds, the quickest of learners and somehow became a sex kitten without brains. Blame this on Shooter, too? The Hood getting the jump on Greer at her place forgets her almost all of her talents.
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Post by starfoxxx on Mar 17, 2009 15:49:43 GMT -5
Great post, spiderwasp.
I went with Wanda, Vizh, Beast, Cap >for obvious reasons
and Hawkeye> just thinking about how his character has been ruined makes me ANGRY! words can't describe my feelings about this.
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Mar 22, 2009 20:40:50 GMT -5
Vision - He's been ruined ever since that d**n John Byrne issue of West Coast Avengers where he lost his feelings and color. Gwen Stacy - I STILL to this day will say even to my grave that the death of Gwen Stacy was, while a great story, a HORRIBLE idea. Mary Jane to me was never as good as Gwen was to Peter. Gwen was kind and sweet, to me MJ was and will always be one thing: A flake. Hank - ... I don't need to explain this, I think I have done so enough.  Wasp - What the hell happened between now and the 80's?! Bucky Barnes - He should've stayed dead. I don't hate him, but he really should have stayed dead. Some of Cap's characterization flew out of the window when it was discovered Bucky was really alive. |
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Post by freedomfighter on Mar 22, 2009 23:13:44 GMT -5
Well not surprisingly I picked some of the faves on here as well. Hank Pym, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Bucky Barnes...
I also picked the Hulk. Sorry but Bendis and others have come out and said that the Hulk has unintentionally killed at least hundreds of people. Bruce Banner, the guy who drove onto an active bomb site to save a teenager (although why he didn't just stop the bomb from inside the bunker is a question that has haunted me for years...) is obviously a self sacrificing individual. To think that his rampaging alter ego has killed hundreds of men women and children would drive him insane.
Hank and the slap heard 'round the world, Quicksilver turning bad like clockwork every three years os so, Wanda going crazy and being manipulated all the time...
But Bucky returning is still my most hated. I have two brothers and losing one of them would be a shattering moment, and it would probably change the world I live in. I've always seen Cap and Bucky like brothers (those who see it as father/son I would say Steve is no more than ten years older than Bucky, having probably become Cap when he was 23 or 24 if he was born in 1917 as some sources say) and losing Bucky makes Cap who he is. Without that loss, he's kind of an empty suit. That's why I'm so vehemently opposed to Bucky's resurrection. It makes Cap a character without motivation.
And the Winter Soldier is an okay character I suppose but if he disappeared tomorrow I wouldn't really miss him. Written okay for the most part, but essentially unremarkable.
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 22, 2009 23:33:18 GMT -5
Bucky returning is still my most hated. PREACH ON, BROTHER! Absolutely true, but irrelevant if Cap is dead. Mr. Brubaker actually has a track record with this sort of thing. When he brought back Bucky, it was immediately and justly pointed out that he had merely re-created Jack Monroe in terms of his characterization and relation to Cap. So, what does he do? Off Jack Monroe -- problem solved. RSC |
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Post by bobc on Mar 24, 2009 9:04:29 GMT -5
I couldn't vote for Hawkeye because whatever that thing is in Ultimates3 isn't Hawkeye. As soon as Hawkeye reappears I'll consider voting for him.
I gotta say that after 25 years or more of buying Marvel Comics, I have totally lost interest in just about everything they put out. I agree that the Wasp has been in a nose dive since the late 80's, the Vision has been ruined, blah blah blah. Now we have a Black Panther with breasts. This is all so low-rent.
If not for Mark Millar's current stuff and the Lady Liberators re-emergence in She Hulk, I'd stop buying Marvel altogether. And the She Hulk is just pretty good IMO.
The truth these days is that Marvel is no longer about comics, it's about comics supporting whatever Marvel movie characters are in the public's recent memory. Nobody gives a crap about the characters we have loved over the years. It's sad.
I have my snout in the Essential editions these days.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Mar 24, 2009 22:28:47 GMT -5
What about "all of the above"? God, this sucks. Bucky was my biggest hero because he was filled with all that wide eyed inocents that as a kid I loved. I never believed Bucky carried a gun and killed indescrimently.
Death of Gwen was a quick and easy fix when I was a kid. Never bought into MaryJane and never will.
Death of Hawkeye is the death of the Avengers. To die such a stupid death shows how low we can go.
Stark. I could go on for monthes about what they've done wrong with him. I never bought into that crappy too long storyline that Tony was an (gasp) Alchoholic!!!! Dumb times ten. I passed off the short storyline where he drinks because of pressure, (around IM#125 to 130) but it was bad writing then. Look at Tony's past. Everything that was happening to him then was minor compared to his past. Then after Michaeline (I hope I spelled that right) Dennis O'neil, super comic hack, has no idea what to do with Tony so he revisits the stupid alcohol blip and drags it out forever. Is this the worst you can do to Tony? Not even close.
The whole Civil War mess is eastiestly the dumbest writing in Marvel history, the only saving grace would have been finding out that Tony and Reed were actualy Skrulls. Didn't happen. Marvel decided to keep on the really bad writing course. Norm Osborn is the head of the new Shield and the Avengers. Why do we read this crap???
Cap gets arrested and shot and dies. Hoo Hoo. It is to laugh.
Hey, how to you recoup the Hulk after World War Hulk? You can't.
Again, Reed and Tony decide to send Bruce Banner, long time friend into space, dishing their problems with the Hulk onto whereever he lands. Aren't Reed and Tony two of the most intelligent people in the world? And this makes sense to them.
"The truth these days is that Marvel is no longer about comics" is a half truth. The comics promote the rest of the line, like movies and games and toys and ect. They are all about profitting from comics, they just don't care about the characters anymore. DC's the same way.
Look at all the different versions of all the heroes we knew as kids. Marvel and DC have tons of merchandising contracts that lend all of our heroes to a multi-verse of capitoliziing copies.
Welcome to the New World Order. Your dreams are for sale.
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Post by bobc on Mar 25, 2009 9:34:42 GMT -5
I liked the Hulk when he could never understand what was happening around him, and he'd just attack his own team-mates at the drop of a hat
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 25, 2009 11:05:28 GMT -5
I liked the Hulk when he could never understand what was happening around him, and he'd just attack his own team-mates at the drop of a hat Me too. I even liked it when he couldn't get enough beans. |
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 25, 2009 11:29:06 GMT -5
I even liked it when he couldn't get enough beans. Ah, yes! Hangin' with Crackajack Jackson!! |
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 25, 2009 15:11:21 GMT -5
Hulk + beans = call the CDC, FEMA, and the National Guard!!
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Post by bobc on Mar 26, 2009 12:38:38 GMT -5
Yeah--bad idea!
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Post by Ignore Me! on Mar 26, 2009 13:46:32 GMT -5
Reminds me of the SNL skit with John Belushi as the Hulk at a Super Hero party. He comes out of the bathroom and warns everyone not to go in there. I think Dan Ackroyd was the Flash. The best part was someone in a full plastic Thing costume. hey found the video! well, part of it anyway www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/superhero-party/2406/ |
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on Mar 26, 2009 18:37:00 GMT -5
Hawkeye - My favorite Marvel character, bar none, and yet it seems as if He Who Walks Among the Rows (Bendis) has absolutely nothing to love about this character. His death in Avengers Disassembled almost proved this, because of the fact it was done almost feeling so matter of factly.
Wasp - Kind of the same as above. When you kill off a character who's been part of the Avenger bloodstream for 40 years or so just as a "see what I can do because I'm writing" gimmick, it does drive one insane.
Spider-Man & Mary Jane- One More Day. Seriously? Since this stupid storyline, the only Spider-Man title I've been reading is Ultimate. I put these together only because that entire storyline sucked to high heaven and had editorial pressure written all over it. I read somewhere that Spider-Man sales dropped afterwards, and even the comic shops I go to hated it and have admitted to not really picking up the comic because of how all that was handled.
Those are my picks, and I know you can vote for five, but these were the only ones that jumped out at me for now.
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Post by bobc on Mar 30, 2009 8:39:40 GMT -5
Ignore Me--I'm so old I actually remember when that aired.
Kill me. Now.
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 30, 2009 17:48:13 GMT -5
Cap, Iron-Man and Mr Fantastic, due to Civil War and the various aftermaths.
Scarlet, after House of M.
Gwen, after the Past Sins story. I found her to be the most ruined character of all, given what she represented for Peter. I'm almost glad that BND undid it all.
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 30, 2009 19:41:46 GMT -5
Gwen, after the Past Sins story. I found her to be the most ruined character of all, given what she represented for Peter. I'm almost glad that BND undid it all. I hate to break it to you but BND only undid everything that happened since Pete and MJ got married. Past Sins revealed something that happened long before. I appreciate your attemt at finding something positive about BND though. |
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 31, 2009 5:28:09 GMT -5
Argh! Now I'm depressed  Regarding BND, I must admit I found the last few stories (2 or 3 months) to be pretty good, old style fun. But still nothing that required OMD to work. They could have done them in the old continuity and it would have been fine. |
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Post by bobc on Mar 31, 2009 9:03:57 GMT -5
uhhhh Gwen stacey is back? Since when? In what book? What does BND stand for?
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 31, 2009 10:09:11 GMT -5
uhhhh Gwen stacey is back? Since when? In what book? What does BND stand for? No Gwen is not back (Unless you count the clone that, I suppose, is still roaming around out there somewhere) but give them time. The Gwen story that has happened was a revelation that Gwen had an affair with Norman Osborne in Paris which led to her giving birth to his twins just before she returned to NY and was killed. It was easily one of the worst stories in the history of comics. One More Day (OMD) is the Spider-man story in which, to save Aunt May's life, Pete and MJ made a deal with Mephisto erasing their marriage completely. Brand New Day (BND) started a new world for Spidey in which he and MJ were never married and Harry Osborne is alive. It was easily one of the worst stories in the history of comics. I know you didn't ask about Secret Invasion. Avengers Disassembled or the origin of Sentry but I feel like using this sentence yet again. It was easily one of the worst stories in the history of comics x3. |
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 31, 2009 15:44:45 GMT -5
Although I often enjoy JMS' work, "Sins Past" was just terrible, completely unnecessary, and editorial should have vetoed it immediately. Poor Gwen.
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Post by bobc on Mar 31, 2009 20:58:57 GMT -5
Oh my dear Lord...You said it was bad, BUT YOU DIDN'T SAY IT WAS THAT BAD!!!! Gwen Stacey was knocked up and Peter Parker didn't know? I'm pretty sure twins would come up in conversation. This is all so Octomom. I am, for the first time, sorry I asked a question on this forum.
AND ANOTHER THING!!! Why would Mephisto give a d**n who was married to whom? That is just plain STUPID. STUPID!! I wouldn't accept that storyline from a retarded 5 YO.
Spiderwasp--PLEASE don't tell me anymore. I could join a sleeper cell...
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 31, 2009 21:08:12 GMT -5
Although I often enjoy JMS' work, "Sins Past" was just terrible, completely unnecessary, and editorial should have vetoed it immediately. Poor Gwen. I don't remember if I read it here or on the mail page of the Italian Spider-Man book, but the decision wasn't JMS'. In fact, he wanted the twins to be Peter and Gwen's children. However the editorial board agreed it would have aged Peter too much to have children, so instead they forced Strac to make them become Norman's. |
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Post by dlw66 on Apr 1, 2009 12:54:33 GMT -5
This entire discussion begs the question: should anything be off limits?
I have become aware that for both Marvel and DC, there is no such thing as canon anymore...
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Post by freedomfighter on Apr 1, 2009 13:15:31 GMT -5
This entire discussion begs the question: should anything be off limits? I have become aware that for both Marvel and DC, there is no such thing as canon anymore... Well the thinking as I understand is that no one should feel that the characters they work on have the baggage of sixty years on them, because if you're a slave to the whims of continuity there'll always be a story that contradicts what you're trying to do. If bendis decides that Luke Cage is a hardass who comes across like every stereotypical black guy with shaved head, goatee and glasses then that's who he is and that's how he has been for years. If Grant Morrison decides that Batman is a paranoid borderline mental case then that's who he is. If Frank Miller decides he's a fanatic playing mind games who hits Robin, then that's who he is. I understand that being limited by canon makes it impossible to tell certain stories, and that a character being too good, too noble ala Captain America can be daunting. I myself thinks it's a bit lazy and creatively bland. Anyone can take an established name and use a blank template and skew expectations (The Ultimates are a very good example of this to me). It's much harder to take those existing templates and creatively twist them while still staying true to the core. |
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 1, 2009 15:56:51 GMT -5
This entire discussion begs the question: should anything be off limits? I have become aware that for both Marvel and DC, there is no such thing as canon anymore... Well the thinking as I understand is that no one should feel that the characters they work on have the baggage of sixty years on them, because if you're a slave to the whims of continuity there'll always be a story that contradicts what you're trying to do. If bendis decides that Luke Cage is a hardass who comes across like every stereotypical black guy with shaved head, goatee and glasses then that's who he is and that's how he has been for years. If Grant Morrison decides that Batman is a paranoid borderline mental case then that's who he is. If Frank Miller decides he's a fanatic playing mind games who hits Robin, then that's who he is. I understand that being limited by canon makes it impossible to tell certain stories, and that a character being too good, too noble ala Captain America can be daunting. I myself thinks it's a bit lazy and creatively bland. Anyone can take an established name and use a blank template and skew expectations (The Ultimates are a very good example of this to me). It's much harder to take those existing templates and creatively twist them while still staying true to the core. Your example of Captain America being daunting brings to mind the work Steve Englehart did with the character in the 70s. After the Secret Empire storyline, Cap was still a virtuous man, but the blinders he might've had on, regarding his country and his government, were certainly lifted. I think that was a good example of a writer taking a character in a new direction, yet still respecting the core of their personality. |
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