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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 20, 2008 18:25:36 GMT -5
Hello gang! This is my first post here, but it sure won't be my last!
I just have something to get off my chest about Hank...
Am I the only one who is getting a little sick and tired of the way Hank is treated by not only comic book writers, but comic book READERS as well? I mean, he slapped Janet ONCE, in the middle of a mental breakdown, and he's treated as if he's this horrific wife-beater who would strike Janet at any opportunity. I mean, mostly every comic book forum I've been to has had ignorant people go "Oh that dumb wife-beater who beat up The Wasp every few minutes? Forget about him."
I mean, I'm not condoning the fact that he slapped Jan, but I'm just a wee bit annoyed that people continue to label Hank as an abusive wife-beater due to ONE, count it, ONE issue where during a MENTAL BREAKDOWN he slapped Jan (And all that certain issue proves to me is how cruddy the Shooter age of Marvel/The Avengers was, but that's another rant for another time.)
Also, a note to whomever writes the current Avengers' titles: Can we stop making Hank look like a pathetic loser every time he tries to do something? It's almost like everyone just ignores all the good things Hank did during his run as an Avenger (Even on the West Coast team,) and that no matter what he does, everyone just continues to throw mud in the guy's face. I mean, come on, can't someone out there in comicdom just do SOMETHING to bring the guy's reputation back up? I can't be the only one getting annoyed by this, am I?
Whew, glad to get that off my chest! If you're somehow still here, then thanks for reading, I hope to make some good friends here and discuss the greatest comic book series of all time!
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 20, 2008 19:21:10 GMT -5
Hello gang! This is my first post here, but it sure won't be my last! I just have something to get off my chest about Hank... Am I the only one who is getting a little sick and tired of the way Hank is treated by not only comic book writers, but comic book READERS as well? I mean, he slapped Janet ONCE, in the middle of a mental breakdown, and he's treated as if he's this horrific wife-beater who would strike Janet at any opportunity. I mean, mostly every comic book forum I've been to has had ignorant people go "Oh that dumb wife-beater who beat up The Wasp every few minutes? Forget about him." I mean, I'm not condoning the fact that he slapped Jan, but I'm just a wee bit annoyed that people continue to label Hank as an abusive wife-beater due to ONE, count it, ONE issue where during a MENTAL BREAKDOWN he slapped Jan (And all that certain issue proves to me is how cruddy the Shooter age of Marvel/The Avengers was, but that's another rant for another time.) Also, a note to whomever writes the current Avengers' titles: Can we stop making Hank look like a pathetic loser every time he tries to do something? It's almost like everyone just ignores all the good things Hank did during his run as an Avenger (Even on the West Coast team,) and that no matter what he does, everyone just continues to throw mud in the guy's face. I mean, come on, can't someone out there in comicdom just do SOMETHING to bring the guy's reputation back up? I can't be the only one getting annoyed by this, am I? Whew, glad to get that off my chest! If you're somehow still here, then thanks for reading, I hope to make some good friends here and discuss the greatest comic book series of all time! And even when it appears that someone's finally giving Hank his due, like when Tony Stark gets together with him and Reed Richards to tell them about the skrull invasion, and he says that they're 2 of the smartest people on Earth, it turns out that Hank isn't Hank but a skrull in disguise... Let's just hope that the real Hank's still alive and well somewhere!
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 20, 2008 20:48:39 GMT -5
Welcome, doctorhankpym! If you go spelunking through the Classic Avengers sections, you'll find a couple of threads devoted to the ol' size-changer!
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 20, 2008 21:08:21 GMT -5
Oh my, I hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant, by the way. It's in THIS forum that no one acts incredibly ignorant about ol' High Pockets! My apologies if I did so.
dlw66: Thank you for the welcome! I've seen those threads and will respond to them soon! And I like the picture of The Vision!
Doctor Bong: Really? That's too bad. I hope they're not going to say that he's been a Skrull since even before his "court-martial", but then again it wouldn't surprise me. I haven't read the series in a good 4-5 years so forgive me if I don't know what exactly is going on now-a-days...
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 21, 2008 1:03:25 GMT -5
Welcome Dr. Pym!!
I think you'll find that there are a lot of open minds here, and a deep appreciation for all things Avenger! Some of us still read the books while others stopped some time ago, but we have a little bit for everyone here, regardless of your favorite era.
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 21, 2008 12:10:27 GMT -5
Tana: Thank you! Every other place I've even lurked at, just seems to have people that are ignorant on the history of comic books in general!
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 21, 2008 15:17:40 GMT -5
We have a nice mix of folks here. Lots of different opinions, but we seem to all be getting along.
While I was nver a big Pym fan, I am tired of this 'Hank is a loser' theme that seems to be used by everyone now. While people can point at Shooter's slap as the beginning of the downfall, I think it goes back before this, to his formation of the Yellowjacket persona under Roy Thomas. That started the idea that Hank was mentally unbalanced. And of course, he was often over-shadowed in the Avengers, so that didn't help.
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Post by hunterrose on Jun 22, 2008 10:56:18 GMT -5
in regard to the "hank the wife beater"....... i haven't read those issues in a long time, but i belevie it was told hank hit janet many times....but no one knew it.
but, during his west coast days, hank was shown to truly be sorry, and even asked janet back. it was sort of a redemtion time for him. now as to him being a skrull....i'm not up on the current issues (and by current i mean 3 years)
but i have to put my 2-cents on the shooter issues. i thought the shooter issues were the best. he is the reason i collect comics today. these books were an emotional rollercoaster. why people (fans) hate him i have no idea....i thought he was a good writer
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 22, 2008 13:21:25 GMT -5
hunterrose: Really? I used to have the whole run of The Avengers from the early 80's-on, and I don't remember any mention of him hitting her more than once in their relationship, correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. I may just be having a bad memory...
On the point of Shooter... I think the fact that the books were an emotional roller coaster was what made me not much of a fan of his work. I'm more of a fan of the cheesier story lines, while Shooter's stories always involved something dark happening. It's fine every once in awhile, but once a month of that stuff got VERY grating to me. But alas, I kept reading, so I guess I have no right to complain...
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 22, 2008 15:01:56 GMT -5
in regard to the "hank the wife beater"....... i haven't read those issues in a long time, but i belevie it was told hank hit janet many times....but no one knew it. I don't remember it ever being suggested that Hank had hit Jan more than the one occurence. Anyone ever heard of this? Maybe it was the hank/Jan from the Ultimates? and Welcome, doctorhankpym!
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 22, 2008 15:55:51 GMT -5
The only recollection I have of any references to Hank abusing Jan more than the slap was in the issues just before dissassembled when the Hank bashing began heating up. There were a few comments that I remember seemed to imply a pattern of abuse. They came from out of nowhere and seemed completely out of line. I recently reread the issue with the slap and Jan's and Hank's reactions of surprise seemed more to indicate that it had never happened before. It was also further explained in an annual during the Busiek run that Hank had what basically amounted to a split personality. It amazes me that many characters have gotten physical with each other or committed other terrible acts because they were either mind controlled, had psychological problems, or just made bad choices and we don't hold them responsible for the actions. A few examples: She-Hulk landed the Wasp in the hospital during dissassembled. The Vision tried to take over the world. Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch fought alongside Magneto. Thor fought all the Avengers under Moondragon's control. The list could go on for pages of people who have hit and abused each other and later moved on. Even Jarvis betrayed the Avengers once. In the Marvel Universe anything can be forgiven except hitting a woman even if it's proven you weren't in your right mind at the time. This seems a bit hypocritical.
Of course, then again, this is the same universe where it is unforgivable for a group of young heroes to fight villains in a neighborhood despite the fact that the people who blame them for everything do the same thing on a regular basis. How many fights has Ironman himself been in that took place in the heart of New York City? The Avengers even fought the Cosmic entitity known as the Enemy in a suburban neighborhood. They even had to get there by bus and he wasn't even planning anyone any harm. The hypocrisy runs deep in the MU and by its creators.
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Post by Commander Benson on Jun 22, 2008 18:15:32 GMT -5
Am I the only one who is getting a little sick and tired of the way Hank is treated by not only comic book writers, but comic book READERS as well? I mean, he slapped Janet ONCE, in the middle of a mental breakdown, and he's treated as if he's this horrific wife-beater who would strike Janet at any opportunity. I mean, mostly every comic book forum I've been to has had ignorant people go "Oh that dumb wife-beater who beat up The Wasp every few minutes? Forget about him." I mean, I'm not condoning the fact that he slapped Jan, but I'm just a wee bit annoyed that people continue to label Hank as an abusive wife-beater due to ONE, count it, ONE issue where during a MENTAL BREAKDOWN he slapped Jan (And all that certain issue proves to me is how cruddy the Shooter age of Marvel/The Avengers was, but that's another rant for another time.) Also, a note to whomever writes the current Avengers' titles: Can we stop making Hank look like a pathetic loser every time he tries to do something? It's almost like everyone just ignores all the good things Hank did during his run as an Avenger (Even on the West Coast team,) and that no matter what he does, everyone just continues to throw mud in the guy's face. I mean, come on, can't someone out there in comicdom just do SOMETHING to bring the guy's reputation back up? I can't be the only one getting annoyed by this, am I? You reflect my attitudes about it precisely. I haven't purchased or even looked at an issue of any comic involving the Avengers for ten years or more. But, thanks to my involvement here and with the Captain Comics site, I am aware of how Henry Pym's character has been warped out of shape and how the single slap has metastasized into a history of "wife-beating". Of course, this is part of the "every hero has to have feet of clay" attitude that prevails in to-day's comics. But I hate it, and I hate the attitude toward Pym specifically. Back in his Giant-Man/Goliath days, he was one of my favourite Avengers. So much so that, last year, I dedicated an article of my "Deck Log" column to his Silver-Age development. Up until the time his mind took a vacation during the original Yellowjacket sequence (and that was due to an outside influence), Pym was always depicted as level-headed and competent. Granted, for the first couple of issues of his "stuck at a height of ten feet" period, he was a Gloomy Gus, but Captain America snapped him out of that with one of his patented pep talks. Unfortunately, I don't think the current depiction of Pym will ever change. At least, not for long. Too many writers and fans think that a "wife-beating, insecure" Henry Pym is a Neat Idea.
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Post by sharkar on Jun 22, 2008 19:42:19 GMT -5
but i have to put my 2-cents on the shooter issues. i thought the shooter issues were the best. he is the reason i collect comics today. these books were an emotional rollercoaster. why people (fans) hate him i have no idea....i thought he was a good writer I agree...IMO he is vastly underrated as a writer. I recently re-read some of his LSH work in Adventure and then, in the Action issues (in which the Legion feature was crammed into 8 or so pages) and his character nuance is remarkable. You can also see his strengths at play in Secret Wars, in which character is paramount. I'd love to see someone really examine his work (in a book).
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Post by sharkar on Jun 22, 2008 20:27:24 GMT -5
Up until the time his mind took a vacation during the original Yellowjacket sequence (and that was due to an outside influence), Pym was always depicted as level-headed and competent. I agree. In fact, from the time Cap left active duty (circa #47) and even when Hank became YJ, Hank was the de facto leader of the Avengers and remained so until the Pyms left in #75. To me his finest Silver Age moment was in Avengers #68, in which his brains (and not his powers) saved the day. When you read the actual comics from that time, there is really no reason to think that Hank is anything other than a competent, functioning, strong person. From #28 through #75 he was a major player in the Avengers (but one who slowly but surely lost favor when the Vision was introduced.) He's emotional in a few places, to be sure, but no more so than, say, Hawkeye. Of course, in hindsight it has become fashionable for readers and writers point to episodes that foreshadow his instability, including: Pym's first appearance as a non-costumed protagonist in Astonish, in which he comes across as a disgruntled scientist out to "show the world" how brilliant he is; his "mad scientist" experimentation on Jan when he transforms her into the Wasp complete with wing implantation; Avengers #14 when Jan is injured and he completely loses it; his doubts when he re-joins the Avengers in #28; the aforementioned switch to YJ (Hawkeye remarks Hank just wants to "change costumes again"); the appearance of Hank in his long-unused Ant-Man garb for the celebrated journey through the Vision...and so on and so on. I have even hypothesized on these very boards that the two literal Hanks in Avengers Annual/Special #2 prefigured the split that would occur in a few issues (#59), but I recognize this is a conclusion reached only with the benefit of hindsight. I don't think Stan or Roy Thomas or anyone intended for these episodes to mean that Hank was weak or unbalanced...in the Silver Age, these episodes were par for the course for characters (and provided drama and angst). I can understand why subsequent writers such as Joe Casey ("Earth's Mightiest Heroes") and others before and after him use some of this stuff to fill the gaps or explain his weaknesses--it's their right to do so as creative people--but reading the Avengers back then presented a very different Hank Pym than the incompetent, insecure person that writers seem to like to depict. I don't read much of today's stuff but I happened to read New Avengers #21 and Pym comes across as an utter, inept fool--such a disservice to the character--so I'm glad this Hank (it seems) is a Skrull!
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Post by sharkar on Jun 22, 2008 20:28:20 GMT -5
The only recollection I have of any references to Hank abusing Jan more than the slap was in the issues just before dissassembled when the Hank bashing began heating up. There were a few comments that I remember seemed to imply a pattern of abuse. They came from out of nowhere and seemed completely out of line. I recently reread the issue with the slap and Jan's and Hank's reactions of surprise seemed more to indicate that it had never happened before. It was also further explained in an annual during the Busiek run that Hank had what basically amounted to a split personality. It amazes me that many characters have gotten physical with each other or committed other terrible acts because they were either mind controlled, had psychological problems, or just made bad choices and we don't hold them responsible for the actions. A few examples: She-Hulk landed the Wasp in the hospital during dissassembled. The Vision tried to take over the world. Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch fought alongside Magneto. Thor fought all the Avengers under Moondragon's control. Valid examples. And in WCA #51, Wanda tells Jan to shut up and then lashes out and hits Ms. Van Dyne (while Jan is Wasp-sized, no less!). Granted, Wanda is under great duress as she is just learning that her kids aren't real, but this is several issues before she actually becomes "Darker than Scarlet."
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 23, 2008 10:30:52 GMT -5
Great posts, everyone! Oh, don't get me wrong, I LIKE Shooter... I mean, I don't hate the guy or anything. I just thought he went a little overboard... sharkar (GREAT posts, by the way!): Really? They treat him like an inept fool? Ugh, it's like the character did a total 180 degree turn in the span of 25 years... starfoxxx: Apparently,. in the Ultimates version, Hank used to beat her up a lot, so maybe that's where hunterrose gets that from? Commander Benson (Also, great post!): Wouldn't YOU also be a Gloomy Gus if you were stuck at ten feet? I also agree that the current depiction of him won't change either... I mean, it's been like that for... 25 years now? I doubt a change will happen... We can only hope!
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steed
Reservist Avenger
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Post by steed on Jun 23, 2008 13:53:41 GMT -5
This is a great thread. I've always been unhappy with Shooter's idea to turn Hank into a villian and it seems like anyone who didn't know what to do with Hank since then has written him as a second rate loser. I remember when the Avenger's were just Hank, Jan and Hawkeye. Hank should be the "Reed Richards" of the group, not the door mat.
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Post by Commander Benson on Jun 23, 2008 15:58:38 GMT -5
Commander Benson (Also, great post!): Wouldn't YOU also be a Gloomy Gus if you were stuck at ten feet? Thank you for your kind words. And, yes, indeed, one would initially be a bit depressed at being stuck at a height of ten feet. What was important to remember--and which I didn't elabourate on enough to make clear--was that, while it was a natural depression, it wasn't a lasting state. It didn't take Hank long at all to stop feeling sorry for himself and tackle the business of curing his condition. And that demarks a healthy state of mind. And sharkar was spot-on in her observation that, throughout the '60's, after his return to the Avengers, Hank--when Captain America was absent--was the de facto leader of the team. (I wish I had mentioned that.) Point being, he was a far cry from being the nut case that so many writers and fans love to depict him as to-day. And I find it especially irritating when these folks pore through Pym's continuity and highlight each apparent sign of a "flaw" as another sign of mental aberration.
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Post by sharkar on Jun 23, 2008 23:30:46 GMT -5
Really? They treat him like an inept fool? Ugh, it's like the character did a total 180 degree turn in the span of 25 years... First: thank you, doc, for the kind words. Second: yeah, in the New Avengers issue I was referring to Cap and Hank are on opposite sides during the Civil War and Hank's trying to stop Cap from escaping. Cap throws his shield at the giant Pym and it hits Hank on the nose (there's a goofy shot of Hank cross-eyed as the shield smacks him). I know it must hurt terribly and his helplessness here is probably dramatically justified, but Pym just looks so silly as he is shown holding his nose (Cap escapes, of course). Hank comes off as inept. ...I remember when the Avenger's were just Hank, Jan and Hawkeye. Hank should be the "Reed Richards" of the group, not the door mat. Exactly!
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 24, 2008 9:27:38 GMT -5
steed: I agree! Even the West Coast team treated him more like Reed than he currently is treated! And he was a regular on the team who was treated with respect (sometimes...)!
Commander Benson: Yes, another reason why Hank's my favorite. And don't forget, he didn't stay stuck at that height for all that long!
sharkar: The Civil War was still going on during when the New Avengers series was out? Didn't know that. And poor Hank!
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Post by scottharris on Jun 24, 2008 13:53:21 GMT -5
I have to agree that the use of Hank in recent years has been pretty poor. Only in Civil War and the Initiative did I think he was beginning to get a little respect, even though I didn't care for the actions he was taking; but these seem like they may be all skrull plots anyway. Since the end of the Englehart WCA run, only Kurt has really treated Hank like a viable, important character. Everything else has been somewhere between awful and pointless.
Regarding the initial story, though, I have to say I think The Fall of Yellowjacket is one of the all-time classic Avengers stories. Indeed, I think the mistake made by editorial was in not finishing what they started. This story was originally intended as an arc to turn Hank into an archvillain for the Avengers, and while I like the character, I think this was a groundbreaking concept that could have been excellent if they had followed through on it. Furthermore, is there any doubt that Hank would be treated better by writers and with more respect by fans if he had spent the last 20 years as one of the great villains in the Marvel universe instead of as a second string punchline? I'm not entirely sure why Shooter changed his mind on that story, but I think it's unfortunate that they didn't see it through.
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 24, 2008 15:29:52 GMT -5
It amazes me that many characters have gotten physical with each other or committed other terrible acts because they were either mind controlled, had psychological problems, or just made bad choices and we don't hold them responsible for the actions. I agree with everything spiderwasp has to say in this post. The difference in this instance IMO is the fact that Hank hitting jan was maybe the first instance of SPOUSAL ABUSE in comics. Just as Iron Man tackled alcoholism around this time (early 80's) real-life issues were being handled by mainstream comics for the first time. It's just not the same as Captain America fighting Diamondback, then making out with her, or Daredevil/Black Widow, Batman/Catwoman, etc. This was a man having a mental breakdown and taking his anger out on his wife. It was a real-life scenario, and had little to do with super-heroics/fantasy. I loved the court martial of Yellowjacket story, and I loved alot of Jim Shooter's contribution's to Marvel (and as I've stated before, the early 80's is my favorite Marvel/Avengers era). Secret Wars has never been topped as all-star events go. As sharkar has stated,Shooter nailed every characterization, an aspect of writing that has really become a pet peeve of mine, with all these "new, amazing writers" who IMO need to do some research before handling MU characters who have been established for years and years. Spousal abuse in Avengers, alcoholism in Iron Man (although I have always thought Tony's rehab seemed quite brief and glanced over), bigotry in the X-men, all these issues were addressed around this period. It made me think, hey, there's more to comic books than the Super-Friends cartoon stuff! One sort-of "adult" characterization around this time that has always fascinated me (as a kid, and even today I think it's a cool device that should be used somewhere) was the Black Cat being hot (in heat?) for Spider-man, but wanting NOTHING to do with boring old Peter Parker. Typical for poor Peter; That was good writing!
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steed
Reservist Avenger
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Post by steed on Jun 24, 2008 18:49:33 GMT -5
I detest the idea of Hank as a villian until I think of the first appearence of Yellow Jacket. Maybe if it had been handled right, Hank would have been an interesting villian. But right from the start it seemed so feeble. I never cared for the Shooter era on the Avengers.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 28, 2008 1:36:33 GMT -5
Has anyone read Mighty Avengers 15? Bendis does a real job on Hank, again. The story reveals how SPOILER ALERT Hank was replaced by a skrull. It apparently happened sometime right after New Avengers 1.
We have the misfortune of seeing Hank and a tipsy Jan have a verbal fight. They separate and Hank is then easily seduced by a skrull agent posing as a hot young grad student. He basically reveals everything to her - how he made Ultron, all about his powers, etc. It's just pathetic. And Jan doesn't come across very well either. Another low point for these founders.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 28, 2008 14:35:08 GMT -5
I cannot express enough how much I agree with our new poster.
Seriously. It was ONCE, it was horrible, but he's been redeemed- he's been redeemed a thousand times. Yes, he made Ultron- it's not like every hero hasn't accidentally made a thousand maniacal super-villains. He's redeemed, he's a functional hero and while he has his problems, he'd still kick a super-villain's ass any day of the week, and do it while sounding smarter than anyone short of Reed Richards or Tony Stark. And that, to my mind, is that.
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 29, 2008 22:07:35 GMT -5
Tana Nile: Really? Awww, that's sad. What do Hank and Jan fight about? And just WHY would Hank ever just sleep with some random grad student, and just reveal everything about his past to her (As if she'd even care in the first place...)? Does this Bendis fellow just want to re-write history for the sake of being controversial, or is he just clueless to the past? The amount of lost logic in what apparently goes on in that issue frightens me!
Santa Doom: Hear hear!
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 29, 2008 23:24:39 GMT -5
MA 15 SPOILERS
For me, I don't mind so much that Hank was replaced by a Skrull but it's the way it happened that just seems like more "Hank the loser" and I'm tired of that. I do have a question about this issue however: Have I missed something? Did Hank and Jan get remarried without inviting me to the nuptials? When Hank is in bed with the Skrull (Ewww) they have a conversation that goes like this: Skrull: Aren't you married? Hank: Now you ask me if I'm married? Skrull: No, I know you're married. You are a rather famous American super-hero. I'm asking why you went and hooked up with me if you're married. Hank: I'm separated.
This takes place after dissassembled but it was shortly before that when I remember Hank asking Jan to remarry him and she said no. Actually, I believe that was in the issue with the infamous sex scene. I'm going to be very upset if this second wedding happened and I somehow wasn't paying attention because they're two of my favorite characters and I didn't send a gift or a card or anything. Maybe they made a deal with Mephisto to keep me from knowing they're married.
I'm also tired of Bendis portraying Jan as a drunken Ho. She's always been a bit of a party girl but Dissassembled started because she got drunk after learning she wasn't pregnant by Hawkeye who she slept with even though she was still in a relationship with Hank. Later, Ms. Marvel's thought balloons revealed something along the lines of her being an unbelievable very *friendly* person (I can't remember the exact words) and now she's walking around with a bottle in her hands and slurring he words.
Finally, while I'm ranting, I never did understand the big deal about Hank giving her the power to grow big. Bendis even plugged it ahead of time as "The Wasp gets a new power." Uhm, didn't she do the same thing when fighting the Wrecking crew in England? I know it didn't go well but she didn't exactly accomplish much when she used it again and got instantly taken over by the symbiote either. Sometimes it just feels like Bendis hasn't even read any issues that happened before him but he expects us to hang on his every word because it might be relevant to a storyline coming up in a couple of years.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 30, 2008 4:48:24 GMT -5
This takes place after dissassembled but it was shortly before that when I remember Hank asking Jan to remarry him and she said no. Actually, I believe that was in the issue with the infamous sex scene. I'm going to be very upset if this second wedding happened and I somehow wasn't paying attention because they're two of my favorite characters and I didn't send a gift or a card or anything. Maybe they made a deal with Mephisto to keep me from knowing they're married. I'm just going to assume that when he said "I'm seperated", he was referring to the divorce, but didn't want to say so because then the subject of him hitting Jan may come up, which is not what he wants to talk about. ....I doubt Bendis meant it that way, I think this issue was very poor and poorly researched in general, but that's my no-prize of it. Agreed. This did take me by surprise. I'd say there's a very large chance it'll be important in upcoming issues of Secret Invasion more than anything else, since it was referenced so clearly at the end here. But to be fair, if a writer is gonna ignore a run, the Austen run is the way to go! Still, there was one bright spot in this issue- at least it retcons away every other Bendis-written and Slott-written Hank Pym appearance, and wipes out the monstrous out of characterness of him in Avengers: The Initiative. Also, I'm pretty sure we know who we can blame Clor on.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Jul 9, 2008 8:42:46 GMT -5
steed wrote:
I would take issue with the suggestion that Shooter intended to portray Hank as a villain.
I think he dealt with an emotive adult issue in a daring way for a comic of the kind that the Avengers is. He had clearly put some thought into it and drew on Hank's past. Hank was a good choice as his history had plenty of hints (at the very least) that there might be a problem. This is a guy whose wife was killed (okay so she eventually came back), then married a very young lookalike of her, got stuck as a ten foot freak, had an episode of split-pesonality, got brainwashed by Ultron repeatedly, and had a long history in the book of wanting to focus on his science whilst his wife wanted to 'avenge'. He is also a major character who hadn't had his own book for a long time, giving Shooter much more room to do what he wanted with him.
My own impression was that the depiction of Hank slapping Jan was intended to suggest a history of wife-beating, but it's entirely down to interpretation I guess. There have certainly been prior panels depicting Hank smashing lab equipment in fustration/fury, and I'd say that a tendency towards violence may always have been suggested (though not necessarily wife-beating). I don't see this as making Hank a villain myself, but rather it makes him problematic and deeply troubled. He suffers from something that is a well known problem in society and whilst mercifully a minority problem is nonetheless widespread (and is apparently reasonably common with the gender roles reversed too) . It's something that gets to the darker side of human nature, and sexuality in particular. Hank is weak in some respects, as all people are, and does something awful. That doesn't mean that he is weak or evil in all respects, surely? He's not a mass murderer (he's not even a murderer, unlike those inolved in the assault on the Supreme Intelligence- a particularly badly written sequence BTW). Especially at the time, considering the nature of comics in that era, it was a difficult issue to take on. The fact that it still arouses such strong emotional responses is testimony to that.
FWIW I don't think the court martial issue (or the one before it) is one of Shooter's best, but the one with Egghead where Hank is blackmailed into fighting the Avengers (and kicks ass!) is excellent and should really put paid to any suggestions that Shooter viewed Hank as a villain. He's a superhero with feet of clay. Real-life problems like this are what made marvel Marvel. In this case the problem was a truly dark one, truly shocking, but all the more real for it.
It's not Shooter's fault that most writers have been at a bit of a loss with what to do with Hank since. He certainly presented them with a challenge, but that's no excuse really. Writers seem to have strayed from one extreme to the other, trying to whitewash Hank Pym or to use him as a general scapegoat. Shooter's portrayal of Pym as driven by guilt (not always to the right decision) was far more compelling to my mind. The writing of Quicksilver is another instance where inconsistent interpretation has been a bit of a bane to characterisation. The implication of black and white judgements on character traits this suggests amongst many writers are exactly what Shooter was looking to combat. We all know that life is more complicated than that and that we will all do things under stress that we'd thouroughly disapprove of in normal circumstances. Hank becomes something that I suspect most men are the most afraid of becoming.
Incidentally, Tony Stark came out of the whole episode in a dubious light too when he boffs his friend's ex-missus, and earns Cap's disdain. Nice!
I think the Reed Richards comparison is apt though. Obviously Stark has a similar role in the Avengers too, but Hank has to be important in this respect. Hank Pym is an essential part of the Avengers and always should be IMO. The fact that he's by no means perfect is what makes him a truly Marvel character.
If only more comic writers were up to the task of writing a character with this kind of depth.
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Doctor Bong
Reservist Avenger
Master of belly dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 167
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jul 9, 2008 9:19:55 GMT -5
Excellent analysis, IMO, crimsoncowl...!
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