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Boring?
Oct 9, 2009 22:23:23 GMT -5
Post by dlw66 on Oct 9, 2009 22:23:23 GMT -5
Daredevil is a book that is pretty tolerable from the beginning. This, I'm going to have to disagree with. I think it was tolerable at the beginning, but it went downhill and for my money was almost unreadable for years at a time prior to Frank Miller; and after him, everyone was pretty much just copying him as much as possible. Of all the classic Marvel titles, I think Daredevil might be the one I would least want to read all the way through (though I'm also not really into Silver Age Iron Man either). Sorry, Scott -- should have qualified that a bit better. Since we were discussing books from their first issue onward, primarily in regard to the Essential volumes, I was trying to say that DD 1-25 was more tolerable than most of the other Silver Age books were in their first 20-25 issues (barring ASM, as we both agreed -- good from the beginning). Agreed on DD hitting a wall in the post-Gene Colan era. But up until then, Colan's stuff was quite good. And agreed on IM as well. I just bought the DVD-ROM (for only $21 brand new on eBay!!), and am going to take the plunge. Not in any kind of straight-through method, but just jumping around when a cover strikes my fancy.
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Boring?
Oct 10, 2009 0:21:39 GMT -5
Post by scottharris on Oct 10, 2009 0:21:39 GMT -5
Thanks to my Cap collection, I have a lot of early Iron Man stuff (i.e. Tales of Suspense 57-99) and over the years I've picked up issues here and there (for instance, I bought Iron Man #41-50 once on ebay for $20) to read and I can barely bring myself to read them. They just range from difficult to downright brutal. Iron Man #39 might be the worst Silver Age Marvel I've ever read (though I guess some might call it Bronze Age), it's terrible. If you want to see a real mess, try reading that. I think Gerry Conway and Herb Trimpe must have put the issue together in about twenty minutes.
(I will say that Daredevil #43 is right up there as well, but is saved because of the classic Kirby cover)
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Boring?
Oct 12, 2009 11:09:04 GMT -5
Post by thunderstrike78 on Oct 12, 2009 11:09:04 GMT -5
Thanks, and I agree about ASM. It hit a high note before FF did. In fact, other than an issue here or there, I would say ASM may be Marvel's best book through its first 300 issues. Like I said, there are clunkers every now and then, but overall the first 30 years or so were pretty darn good. And then it got all convoluted with crossovers, Venom, Carnage, etc. I would agree with this statement, except that I think the quality lasted a bit longer. I was never wild about Todd McFarlane's art (even back in the day) but I thought David Michelinie (sp?) had a pretty solid grip on Peter's character and wrote him consistently well. I know a lot of people mark the introduction of Venom and Carnage as the point where ASM "jumped the shark", but I actually enoyed those stories greatly. No one has ever really understood Eddie Brock's character since Michelinie left and even the first Carnage story (which he wrote) was a very good examination of Brock's character as contrasted against the truly insane and deeply evil Carnage. I think both Venom and Carnage have been over-used in the years since by numerous writers who just saw them as costumes with cookie-cutter villian personalities, but their initial appearances were very worthwhile.
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Boring?
Dec 12, 2009 15:25:57 GMT -5
Post by bobster on Dec 12, 2009 15:25:57 GMT -5
While I agree that many of the early issues of The Avengers can be pretty mundane and things generally took a turn for the better when Roy Thomas took over, Stan Lee did write some fun issues early on.
Among my favorites (which some of you have already mentioned) in particular from Stan's era are - Avengers #1-9, 15-16 & 19-30.
After Thomas arrived there was a brief period before book really took off (around Avengers #51)
When it comes to 1960s Marvel, I would recommend them in this order -
1. Fantastic Four - vintage Lee/Kirby, the first 70 or so issues are classic.
2. Amazing Spider-Man - Lee/Ditko and Lee/Romita are both exceptional quality
3. Avengers - the Thomas/J.Buscema issues are the highpoint
4. Daredevil - Lee teamed with Wood, Romita or Colan. Just don't expect to see the Frank Miller Daredevil!
5. Tales of Suspense - some pretty good Iron Man (try the Colan issues) and Captain America
6. Journey Into Mystery/Thor - more Lee/Kirby classics
7. Nick Fury - Jim Steranko. 'nuff said.
8. Silver Surfer - the series didn't last long, but the J.Buscema art is some of his best
9. X-Men - the Thomas/Adams issues are easily the best X-Men of the 60s
10. Tales to Astonish - the Hank Pym stories are dull, but the Hulk and Sub-Mariner stories are much better
11. Strange Tales - some of the Human Torch stories are just bad, but the Lee/Ditko Doctor Strange stories are classics, as are the Steranko Nick Fury stories.
12. Sgt. Fury - I never have developed a great love for the early Sgt. Fury stories, but there are some good ones in there.
also-
Marvel Super-Heroes was a fun series of one-shots (when it was publishing original stories like Captain Marvel, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Black Knight, Medusa, Ka-Zar & Doctor Doom).
Not Brand Echh is pretty dated, but some of the stories are still fun.
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Boring?
Dec 13, 2009 7:26:42 GMT -5
Post by humanbelly on Dec 13, 2009 7:26:42 GMT -5
Wow, Bobster, you certainly have a handle on your Marvel Silver Age--! I think. . . there may be wedding bells in store for you & Sharkar. . . (heh-- "Matchmaker, Matchmaker-- make me a match. . . ")
I was intrigued by the fact that you've clearly been a very quiet member for several years. A silent veteran, as it were. Checked your history and saw that-- you're the Micro Heroes creator! Is that correct? I know many folks here are familiar with them, but I imagine any newer folks probably aren't. They certainly make wonderful avatar icons, and are clever, fun, and hopelessly adorable (my daughter was quite impressed). Would you care to post a link to them again, for posterity's sake?
(I'm gonna give you a combined exalt both for the M-Heroes & for contributing so thoughtfully after such a long absence)
HB
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Boring?
Dec 14, 2009 20:16:22 GMT -5
Post by sharkar on Dec 14, 2009 20:16:22 GMT -5
Wow, Bobster, you certainly have a handle on your Marvel Silver Age--! I think. . . there may be wedding bells in store for you & Sharkar. . . (heh-- "Matchmaker, Matchmaker-- make me a match. . . ") LOL! Geez, do you know me or what, HB?? ;D I have to admit Bobster's post, with its abundance of Silver Age savories, made my mouth water! Bobster: Wonderful, intelligent post; lots of great points. I'd like to add some observations if I may. (I am going to have to break this up into two posts.) Part 1 1. Fantastic Four - vintage Lee/Kirby, the first 70 or so issues are classic. Yes, there was a noticeable shift in the FF around this time, because by Kirby for the most part had decided to stop creating new characters/concepts. The (reputed) straw that broke the camel's back? The Him story (#65-67); Kirby intended it one way (mostly about Objectivism) and he felt that Stan's dialogue made it into an entirely different story. (After this you'll start to see many more FF stories derived from TV shows and movies as Kirby apparently grew less interested in going all out.) Also, the paper size for the original art work changed with FF #68 (it was smaller), and reportedly Kirby was not happy with drawing on a smaller scale...he felt he could not be as detailed. 3. Avengers - the Thomas/J.Buscema issues are the highpoint I know a lot of people point to Palmer as Buscema's best inker, but I always liked JB's work with George Klein better; it was cleaner, less dark and macabre (though Palmer was perfect with Adams). JMHO! Also--and this is another minority opinion, I'm sure--I found Heck's Avengers work more than competent. He managed to make the characters individuals and not cookie-cutter identical (this really comes across in the black and white Essentials). 4. Daredevil - Lee teamed with Wood, Romita or Colan. Just don't expect to see the Frank Miller Daredevil! 5. Tales of Suspense - some pretty good Iron Man (try the Colan issues) and Captain America 10. Tales to Astonish - the Hank Pym stories are dull, but the Hulk and Sub-Mariner stories are much better Mr. Gene Colan (Adam Austin) on DD, Shellhead, Subby, Cap, others--THE best, most underrated artist of the Silver Age. JMHO. to be continued...
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Boring?
Dec 14, 2009 20:31:14 GMT -5
Post by sharkar on Dec 14, 2009 20:31:14 GMT -5
Part 27. Nick Fury - Jim Steranko. 'nuff said. You said it (but may I add I agree with you? I just read these stories a couple of years ago in the Steranko SHIELD trade paperback...and Steranko's run sure lives up to its reputation!). 8. Silver Surfer - the series didn't last long, but the J.Buscema art is some of his best Stan's stories may be overwrought (though I liked Al Harper and Mephisto tales)... but this is the most gorgeous art of the Silver Age, courtesy of John B and his cohorts Mssrs. Sinnott, Sal B, and Adkins. 9. X-Men - the Thomas/Adams issues are easily the best X-Men of the 60s The two Steranko issues weren't bad, either, but I know what you mean; when Adams came on board the series gained a direction it had previously lacked; and the cast had started to be less insular (Alex and Lorna joined the cast). The series was just hitting its stride and oh, how I cried for weeks when I read it was being canceled (with #66...) 11. Strange Tales - some of the Human Torch stories are just bad, but the Lee/Ditko Doctor Strange stories are classics, as are the Steranko Nick Fury stories. The Human Torch series was flat-out ludicrous and rarely connected with the FF series (even when Stan was scripting both series). I mean, Johnny had a secret identity in S Tales? And his S Tales steady girlfriend Dorrie Evans was never mentioned in the contemporaneous FF comic (until FF #45, when he met Crystal--then it was hasta la vista, Dorrie!). I read the Ditko Dr. Strange stories in Marvel Collectors' Item Classics way back when--very quirky and "un-superhero"-like, an interesting counterpart to Marvel's more standard fare. Marvel Super-Heroes was a fun series of one-shots (when it was publishing original stories like Captain Marvel, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Black Knight, Medusa, Ka-Zar & Doctor Doom). Not Brand Echh is pretty dated, but some of the stories are still fun. Funny you should mention Not Brand Echh and Marvel Superheroes, Bobster; the two NBE "Unhumans" stories, along with the Medusa Marvel Superheroes solo story, are (IMO) the standouts of the recently-released Inhumans Masterworks collection. The Medusa story is a timeless tale about a woman who is prepared to sacrifice her virtue for the sake of her beloved; and Gene Colan draws the most beautiful, mysterious, sinuous, Medusa ever. The often-vilified Vince Colletta's inks are just perfect here. Also, I've long thought that Not Brand Echh should be collected in a trade paperback (I've been meaning to post that suggestion, actually, in one of our other AA threads). I agree that since much of the humor was topical some of the stories are somewhat dated- -but hey, that's part of NBE's charm (like MAD and Seinfeld ). Whew! Thanks for allowing me to take this Silver Age stroll down memory lane.
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Boring?
Dec 24, 2009 19:37:09 GMT -5
Post by bobster on Dec 24, 2009 19:37:09 GMT -5
I grew up in the 70s reading a lot of those Silver age stories reprinted in such titles as Marvel Tales, Marvel's Greatest Comics, Marvel Triple Action, Marvel Super-Heroes and the Marvel Treasury Editions.
I agree with you about Colan being under-appreciated, but when you think about the stable of artists that Marvel had in the 60's (Kirby, Ditko, Heck, Ayers, Romita, J.Buscema, M. Severin, Steranko, Adams, S.Buscema, Adkins and Shores as well as Colan), it's only natural that some get ignored (like Marie Severin, who did some beautiful work on the Hulk)
Not to mention the great work that Stan Goldberg, Dan DeCarlo, Al Hartley, Larry Lieber and Jack Keller did in the humor, girls and western titles!
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Boring?
Dec 29, 2009 10:42:27 GMT -5
Post by sharkar on Dec 29, 2009 10:42:27 GMT -5
I agree with you about Colan being under-appreciated, but when you think about the stable of artists that Marvel had in the 60's (Kirby, Ditko, Heck, Ayers, Romita, J.Buscema, M. Severin, Steranko, Adams, S.Buscema, Adkins and Shores as well as Colan), it's only natural that some get ignored... Yes, and let's not forget John Severin , and Carl Burgos (who came to work for Stan a bit)..and the great Wally Wood...and I must confess a fondness for Wener Roth...the list could go on forever! To be sure, there were many good artists at the time. However, IMO Colan was also a trailblazer, what with his unique blend of expressionism/realism, his use of chiaroscuro, his experiments with panel/page layouts (even in his romance comic work!) --and yet he doesn't receive nearly the amount of credit for this that is typically heaped upon, say, Steranko or Adams. Plus Colan used "decompression" in his storytelling (yeah, and I know it got him into trouble, because then he often had to cram a lot of action into the last couple of pages to wrap up a story)--but d**n, that Bullitt sequence in Cap #116, or Cap walking/thinking over three pages in Cap #122...brilliant! ...Marie Severin, who did some beautiful work on the Hulk... Yes, I agree--Marie Severin was great! I didn't read the Hulk back then but I love Severin's work on the 1968 Sub-Mariner series--it's exquisite. Boy, that Subby series really started off with a bang artist-wise: John Buscema, Colan, Severin--a veritable Murderers' Row of great draftsmanship. Severin didn't remain on Subby, alas. I'm not sure why she was removed from penciling a regular book, though I guess she--and John Romita Sr. (who was by his own admission a slow and painstaking penciler)--ultimately proved more valuable to Stan back then as de facto art production assistants, doing cover or story layouts, touch ups, corrections, etc. Romita was by his own admission a "slow and painstaking" penciler, so it made sense for him to do layouts (plotting)/fix up jobs and/or finishes (instead of full pencils); and I suppose Stan didn't want Marie's production/coloring experience to go to waste. Certainly both Severin and Romita (and Verpooten and Trimpe) provided a lot of in-house, onsite support for Stan. Not to mention the great work that Stan Goldberg, Dan DeCarlo, Al Hartley, Larry Lieber and Jack Keller did in the humor, girls and western titles! Agreed. Stan G, Larry and the others you cite--along with Sol Brodsky, Flo Steinberg and others--helped make Marvel the Marvel we all know and love! And speaking of those non-superhero genres, it's interesting how Stan Lee--by 1961 a seasoned teen humor/gal book writer-- "borrowed" from his own, and others' work, on those books, by infusing elements from these other genres into Marvel's new superhero comics: the breezy, more informal dialogue; the humor; protagonists being mavericks or somewhat outside the law; tortured soap opera romance. Toss in a bit of the monster books and what have you got? The FF...Ant-Man...the Hulk...Thor...Spider-Man...Iron Man...Silver Age Marvel!
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