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Boring?
Jun 1, 2008 20:06:36 GMT -5
Post by woodside on Jun 1, 2008 20:06:36 GMT -5
Sorry to say it, gents, but I started reading Essential Avengers Volume One and is so freaking boring. The first three-four issues were not bad and I even like the arc that exited the Hulk and brought in Cap. But issues 5 just killed it for me. I just didn't want to read it anymore! Color me disappointed.
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Doctor Bong
Reservist Avenger
Master of belly dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 167
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Boring?
Jun 1, 2008 20:22:36 GMT -5
Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 1, 2008 20:22:36 GMT -5
Sorry to say it, gents, but I started reading Essential Avengers Volume One and is so freaking boring. The first three-four issues were not bad and I even like the arc that exited the Hulk and brought in Cap. But issues 5 just killed it for me. I just didn't want to read it anymore! Color me disappointed. Since we're talking Essentials, woodside, perhaps we should say, err... "discolor you disappointed"... ;D
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 2, 2008 9:02:31 GMT -5
W, no doubt that what you say is true.
I posted on another board, in regard to the Essentials, that no Marvel Silver Age neophyte should be allowed to read any Essential prior to volume 2. That puts the reader into the third year of continuity, and by then Stan had established the personalities, mythos, whatnot of each of Marvel's titles.
And, if you're looking for Romita on Spidey or Joe Sinnott inking on Kirby, then you need vol. 3 of Spidey and the FF.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Boring?
Jun 2, 2008 10:22:13 GMT -5
Post by steed on Jun 2, 2008 10:22:13 GMT -5
As a kid in the 70's, I remember reading DC's 100 Page Giants that reprinted stuff from the 40's and wondering how it ever got published. Over the years I've grown to really appreciate the Golden Age works, but I can sympathize with anyone trying to read the first couple of years of the Avengers in black and white.
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Boring?
Jun 2, 2008 12:37:54 GMT -5
Post by scottharris on Jun 2, 2008 12:37:54 GMT -5
I don't know what issues Essentials Vol. 1 contains, but in my opinion, there really aren't all that many great issues of Avengers prior to #51. That's probably the first two volumes of Essentials. My recommendation would be to read just a few key stories and skip the rest if you really are that bored. Here's what I would pick:
Avengers #1 Avengers #4 Avengers #13 -- my favorite story of the early days Avengers #15 -- death of Zemo Avengers #16 -- intro of Cap's Kooky Quartet
Avengers #19-28 - try out 19 and 20 first; the Kooky Quartet stuff is more interesting to me than the earlier stuff, but if you don't like 19-20, skip the rest of this run
Avengers #32-33 - An early "message" story dealing with racism and the early civil rights movement
Avengers #42-45 - The first 3 part storyline in Avengers, and then a fight with the Super Adaptoid
Avengers #47-49 - A 3 parter that introduces the Black Knight and features Magneto
Honestly, there's a lot of less interesting stuff here. Just when Stan seemed to hit his groove a bit with the Quartet stuff and the Sons of the Serpent story, he left the book, which meant we then got Roy Thomas struggling to find his voice as well. #51-up are, in my opinion, significantly better both in writing and art than the issues that came before.
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Boring?
Jun 2, 2008 16:29:41 GMT -5
Post by woodside on Jun 2, 2008 16:29:41 GMT -5
I won't go so far as to say to I'm a Silver Age neophyte; I've enjoyed Silver Age X-Men and Spider-Man --- as well as Fantastic Four.
Which is why I'm mystified as to why I'm having such a hard time with this volume. I've even read issues 47-49 and it's fantastic stuff!
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Boring?
Jun 2, 2008 18:04:30 GMT -5
Post by Shiryu on Jun 2, 2008 18:04:30 GMT -5
Most of the first issues are pretty dull, I agree. Things improve in the kooky quartet era, with more interesting dynamics between the members, and then gradually moving in Thomas' run.
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Boring?
Jun 3, 2008 21:28:27 GMT -5
Post by hunterrose on Jun 3, 2008 21:28:27 GMT -5
hey woodside, how old r u? comics have become more and more complex, going back 20,30 or 40 yrs the stories become more and more simple. younger people have a hard time reading the gold and silver books. i have a hard time reading golden-age books. some of the horror books are cool .
but try the masterworks. the color makes a difference. but the origials are best. if you can't afford them, fantasy masterpiece, and other 70's reprints give you the feel of an old book without the price tag.
but before yyou throw away your Essential, read these issues. they are good
avengers# 9 (wonder-man),15,16,24 (this is part 2 of issue 23. issue 23 is boring- but you can read 24 and understand what's going on) and 25.
i think you will like them
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Boring?
Jun 4, 2008 18:40:48 GMT -5
Post by woodside on Jun 4, 2008 18:40:48 GMT -5
I'm 25 years old, been reading comics since I was 9, and have read all of Uncanny X-Men (and core X-Men titles). I have an interest in the history and evolution of comics, so I'm aware that story-telling has changed since then.
That being said, I doubt color would make a big difference with me and I simply can't afford anything but the Essentials.
However, I'm going to at least heavily skim these early issues until I get to 15 and up, then I'll start reading.
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Boring?
Jun 9, 2008 17:11:35 GMT -5
Post by bobc on Jun 9, 2008 17:11:35 GMT -5
Oh contraire! All comic fans should be held at gunpoint and FORCED to read the volume one! The cheese factor must be savored like a fine wine! The stories were awesome--theymade no sense, the Avengers fought each other more than all the super-villains combined, and the Wasp served absolutely no purpose other than to be captured for ransom! Awwww--the good old days!
And let's talk HULK! For the first ten issues or so, the Avengers stalked him like Fatal Attraction, despite the fact that having him in the group couldn't have been more disastrous the first time around!! Issue in, issue out, it was "FIND THE HULK" even though he was clearly a disaster waiting to happen! The hulk wanted nothing to do with them, but the Avengers didn't care! I'm surprised the Hulk didn't find his pet bunny boiling in a pot on the kitchen stove!!
The other awesome thing about the early Avengers was how easy Iron Man was to defeat. You could literally throw water on him and he would rust into a useless static statue! Or you could pepper him with "emory powder"--whatever the hell that is--and voila! a useless, motionless statue! If this is what was considered an "Earth's Mightiest Hero," well, bring on Duo Damsel!! IM ran out of power every ten seconds! This must have been before rechargeable batteries!
And remember when the Wasp had that pointy head? What up with that? That costume was as goofy as when the Scarlet Witch looked like she had a giant baggy on her head in the early days!
You guys must learn how to appreciate the cheesiness of days gone by!
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Boring?
Jun 16, 2008 10:11:07 GMT -5
Post by bobc on Jun 16, 2008 10:11:07 GMT -5
Remember the time the Wasp had to flee in terror from a sparrow? Realizing that she could not best the avian menace of a sparrow, she flitted over to a thin tree branch to hide, became human sized while perched upon it, and promptly she fell on her azz. She was knocked unconscious. That was awesome
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Boring?
Jun 20, 2008 21:20:03 GMT -5
Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 20, 2008 21:20:03 GMT -5
I'm in the same boat as bobc. I think the cheesiness adds to the fun! But I can see what some people are saying. My friend is reading every issue of The Uncanny X-Men, and he often complains about how ridiculous the early stories were sometimes. Some of those early Avengers stories are pretty odd, but to me they're quirky in their own way. The 2nd issue with The Space Phantom for example. Hard to believe they actually brought that guy back later on, with The Grim Reaper no less!
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Boring?
Aug 20, 2008 13:00:12 GMT -5
Post by woodside on Aug 20, 2008 13:00:12 GMT -5
Still not good, guys. I'm in the mid-20s and the stories just aren't good. The villians are lame (the Minotaur, anyone?) and the dialogue is god awful!
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Boring?
Aug 20, 2008 13:59:04 GMT -5
Post by dlw66 on Aug 20, 2008 13:59:04 GMT -5
I don't know -- the heroes behave like heroes, muscles to the point of "I can't move!" are nowhere to be found, and characterization is often at the forefront and recognizable.
I'll give you that Stan's dialogue, and even to an extent later with Roy's, is cheesy and often full of too much angst. But, this is the formative time of what you know as the Marvel Universe.
I have often thought that books from this era should be read as they originally saw the light of day -- sporadically. With readings of several books at a sitting, the warts are more visible. However, even though they weren't thought of as arcs with the tpb in mind, some stories do work well when read completely. You're about up to the Sons of the Serpent arc, and certainly a bit later the 2-part Vision introduction is wonderful!
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Boring?
Aug 20, 2008 14:38:45 GMT -5
Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 20, 2008 14:38:45 GMT -5
This is interesting- I haven't read the classic Avenger stories (Well, sporadically, but not much) but I find the classic FF holds up INCREDIBLY well. (Well, even it takes time to get it's groove on, but FF 30-60 or so are among the most creative and phenomenal comics I've ever read. Now true, Stan's dialogue is not its best and you do find that many of the villains are por early on, but the passion and the energy and creativity really shines through the pages. I've been thinking about picking up the Avengers Essentials for some time, it's a pity to hear they don't live up to the high bar FF set. Interesting, because the FF spend half of the early issues beating on each other while the Thing leers at Sue and Johnny is generally a brat.
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Boring?
Aug 20, 2008 14:43:44 GMT -5
Post by dlw66 on Aug 20, 2008 14:43:44 GMT -5
Interesting, because the FF spend half of the early issues beating on each other while the Thing leers at Sue and Johnny is generally a brat. Oh, like a real family (from the arguing and generally not always getting along standpoint, not the physical aspects)? More realistic, and pleasing to the senses, than the dark era of super-heroing where the lines of morality are blurred and former heroes become totalitarian dictators.
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Boring?
Aug 20, 2008 15:21:47 GMT -5
Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 20, 2008 15:21:47 GMT -5
Oh, like a real family (from the arguing and generally not always getting along standpoint, not the physical aspects)? More realistic, and pleasing to the senses, than the dark era of super-heroing where the lines of morality are blurred and former heroes become totalitarian dictators. Well, not sure how many families there are where the uncle lusts after the mommy. And gotta say, more pleasing to some senses but a heckuva lot less realistic than modern superherodom. But then again, I don't know any modern heroes who have become totilitarian or dictators so we're talking bout two different things, right?
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Boring?
Aug 20, 2008 15:58:56 GMT -5
Post by dlw66 on Aug 20, 2008 15:58:56 GMT -5
But then again, I don't know any modern heroes who have become totalitarian or dictators so we're talking bout two different things, right? Guess I must not be totally current on Iron Man, then. My fault. He was my example.
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Boring?
Aug 21, 2008 13:22:05 GMT -5
Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Aug 21, 2008 13:22:05 GMT -5
Still not good, guys. I'm in the mid-20s and the stories just aren't good. The villians are lame (the Minotaur, anyone?) and the dialogue is god awful! Yeah, if you're referring to issue #17 ("The Search for the Hulk!",) that one was pretty dreadful, not to mention one of the biggest let-downs I've ever seen in a comic book. They didn't even MEET UP with ol' greenskin! I also thought it was particularly lame that Quicksilver was going nutso over seeing the thing -- when they showed it later, it wasn't that special! I agree with Santa Doom, in that the books still hold up today, especially since it is my opinion that current books really don't look as good as any random silver-age Avengers story! Stan is not the master of dialouge, I agree with everyone on that, but to me he's still one of the better writers in the Marvel Universe. Roy Thomas is pretty much a carbon copy of Stan in how he writes, but later on he gets much better. I personally agree with dlw, in that the stories get MUCH better later in the run. The first 30-40 issues simply cannot hold a candle to the middle of the Roy Thomas run, which is when I believe the series was at its peak. You even get a streak of a few good titles in a row (56-60)!
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Boring?
Aug 21, 2008 14:43:59 GMT -5
Post by scottharris on Aug 21, 2008 14:43:59 GMT -5
I have to say that I also am not a giant fan of the early stuff. There are some okay stories -- the first 4 issues are interesting, anyway, 6 and 7 are okay, 8 introduces Kang, 9 is a classic, I personally like 13, 16 is important, 19 and 20 are good...
...but as far as reading these for fun, you know, not so much. For me Avengers didn't really hit its stride until #51 when the art just took a quantum leap for no apparent reason and Thomas likewise started putting out some great stories. #51-100 is right up there with the best 50 issue runs of any comic series.
#1-49, well... those don't see the light of day in my household very often.
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Boring?
Aug 24, 2008 19:52:45 GMT -5
Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Aug 24, 2008 19:52:45 GMT -5
Yeah, I just got #15 in the mail myself, the "Death of Zemo!!" issue, and even THAT looks completely ridiculous, looking back at it. It feels like everything is going into completely different directions, and his death is completely cheesy, and just so random that you don't even realize he's dead until Stan's little box at the end tells you so! Still, I just can't fully hate it, or the other issues that are completely questionable in content, I find cheesiness fun.
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Boring?
Sept 14, 2008 22:25:31 GMT -5
Post by badgermaniac on Sept 14, 2008 22:25:31 GMT -5
I started a separate post on this, but the entire Secret Wars series fits into this category, even though the era doesn't match.
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Boring?
Sept 30, 2008 14:04:14 GMT -5
Post by bobc on Sept 30, 2008 14:04:14 GMT -5
For me, these early era comics were an interesting glimpse into the culture of the times. I read them for the same reason I love to watch 30's exploitation films like "Terror of Tiny Town" and "Cocaine fiends." Even the most "shocking" subject matter, by today's standards, is pretty darned tame in those. The older I get, the more interested I seem to get in the past.
Even though I love the old comics, some are pretty naive and corny by today's standards. BUT, as DL pointed out, super heroes back then at least had some nobility, which is sorely lacking today
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Boring?
Sept 22, 2009 7:56:02 GMT -5
Post by ultron69 on Sept 22, 2009 7:56:02 GMT -5
For me, these early era comics were an interesting glimpse into the culture of the times. I read them for the same reason I love to watch 30's exploitation films like "Terror of Tiny Town" and "Cocaine fiends." Even the most "shocking" subject matter, by today's standards, is pretty darned tame in those. The older I get, the more interested I seem to get in the past. Even though I love the old comics, some are pretty naive and corny by today's standards. BUT, as DL pointed out, super heroes back then at least had some nobility, which is sorely lacking today All true, bobc. The Silver Age comics are painful in a way, (I like your comparison to the exploitation movies, in terms of the squeamishness both can engender) but I also love the innocence and, as you say, nobility. Heroes acted like and were treated like heroes back then, and I do miss that.
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Boring?
Oct 8, 2009 11:19:20 GMT -5
Post by thunderstrike78 on Oct 8, 2009 11:19:20 GMT -5
I had the exact same experience when I bought the first Essential volume. Those stories were so hokey and goofy! They certainly have some historic value, but they're not my favorites.
In fact, I seem to recall that it led into a conversation about how Stan's heart just wasn't in the Avengers. They were Marvel's answer to the Justice League, which was selling EXTREMELY well for DC at the time, and Stan's bosses wanted to know why Marvel didn't have a Justice League of their own.
So Stan gave them what they wanted, but it wasn't something he really enjoyed, so he left the book relatively quickly (as opposed to his lengthy runs on Amazing Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, and others). The book didn't really seem to find its feet until Roy Thomas took over, and he introduced many of the conventions that make the Avengers memorable to this day.
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Boring?
Oct 8, 2009 13:39:41 GMT -5
Post by scottharris on Oct 8, 2009 13:39:41 GMT -5
I just reread this thread and wanted to say that dlw66's comment that everyone should skip the first volume of essentials is pretty much spot on. However, the exception to the rule is Amazing Spider-man; those early Lee/Ditko issues are still pretty good, even though the series doesn't really get going until #18. But the first 17 issues hold up better than most of the other Marvel titles in my opinion.
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Boring?
Oct 9, 2009 16:11:16 GMT -5
Post by dlw66 on Oct 9, 2009 16:11:16 GMT -5
I just reread this thread and wanted to say that dlw66's comment that everyone should skip the first volume of essentials is pretty much spot on. However, the exception to the rule is Amazing Spider-man; those early Lee/Ditko issues are still pretty good, even though the series doesn't really get going until #18. But the first 17 issues hold up better than most of the other Marvel titles in my opinion. Thanks, and I agree about ASM. It hit a high note before FF did. In fact, other than an issue here or there, I would say ASM may be Marvel's best book through its first 300 issues. Like I said, there are clunkers every now and then, but overall the first 30 years or so were pretty darn good. And then it got all convoluted with crossovers, Venom, Carnage, etc. Daredevil is a book that is pretty tolerable from the beginning. But the Avengers, X-Men, Thor, and the FF -- all of those classics are best enjoyed well into the second if not third year of production.
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Boring?
Oct 9, 2009 18:43:13 GMT -5
Post by scottharris on Oct 9, 2009 18:43:13 GMT -5
Daredevil is a book that is pretty tolerable from the beginning. This, I'm going to have to disagree with. I think it was tolerable at the beginning, but it went downhill and for my money was almost unreadable for years at a time prior to Frank Miller; and after him, everyone was pretty much just copying him as much as possible. Of all the classic Marvel titles, I think Daredevil might be the one I would least want to read all the way through (though I'm also not really into Silver Age Iron Man either).
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Boring?
Oct 9, 2009 21:10:06 GMT -5
Post by humanbelly on Oct 9, 2009 21:10:06 GMT -5
Daredevil is a book that is pretty tolerable from the beginning. This, I'm going to have to disagree with. I think it was tolerable at the beginning, but it went downhill and for my money was almost unreadable for years at a time prior to Frank Miller; and after him, everyone was pretty much just copying him as much as possible. Of all the classic Marvel titles, I think Daredevil might be the one I would least want to read all the way through (though I'm also not really into Silver Age Iron Man either). I do seem to remember, about the time the book was "Daredevil and the Black Widow", that it was being produced bi-monthly a lot of the time (a bad sign), and there was a particularly long, lame story arc involving the Mandrill-- who seemed straight out of the hokiest of golden-age weirdo villain stables. Even as a kid I thought, "how has it come to this?" HB
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Boring?
Oct 9, 2009 21:38:37 GMT -5
Post by woodside on Oct 9, 2009 21:38:37 GMT -5
I love the first 18 issues of Uncanny X-Men. Granted, Roy Thomas really gets the characterization going during his run (issue 20), but those first 18 serve as very much a "year one" sorta deal.
When the X-Men start out, half the team can't get their powers to work right . . . but it builds to issue 18, where Magneto comes back more powerful than ever . . . and is defeated by Iceman, the youngest team member and class clown!
Great stuff and holds up really well to today's standards.
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