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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 5, 2007 5:14:05 GMT -5
Taking my cue from The W and his fantastic list of the CW read-order, I'm putting up a read order for all Initative books- that is to say, books clearly bannered The Initiative. Who knows, maybe some day someone will sit down and read CW via his excellent list and then The Initative in the right order and then erupt with the knoweldge of Marveldom! I put it in this forum since it seemed the most relevant as it is not technically an event.
In addition to all titles bannered "The Initative", I have included Thunderbolts 110-111 and New Avengers #27 which are clearly part of The Initative storyline but came out prior to CW 7 and so were not labelled as such. I have also included Civil War 7, Frontline #11, Cap #25 and CW: The Confession as they are VERY relevant to this post-CW period, and I will be including Fallen Son. After much thought, I decided not to include "Back in Black" as the chronology is too confusing, though I may later add Amazing Spider-Man.
Please note I have not yet recieved this week's issues (Omega Flight, Avengers: The Initative, Ms Marvel and Fallen SOn: Wolverine) and so have tenatively written in Ms Marvel and Omega Flight but not the rest yet. I also cannot find FF 544 and so have just added in what I can derive from Black Panther #26. This will all be updated. So...
THE INITATIVE READ-ORDER[/u]
Note: Reed?s letter in Civil War #7 is fairly confusing. The words in it are a little out of synch with the events, since events like the founding of the Mighty Avengers and Omega Flight occur a bit later. It makes sense in-book since it?s setting up the status quo but for the purposes of this checklist, the pictures that go with the words will be ignored.
Black Panther #26 pg 1-2, 6
Civil War #7 pg 1-21
CW: Frontline #11 pg1-5
Black Panther #26 pg 3-4
Civil War #7- pg 22 panels 1-3
CW Frontline #11 pg6-32
Civil War #7 pg22 panel 4-pg28
Black Panther pg 5-10
Fantastic Four #543- All
Black Panther #26- pg11-12
Fantastic Four #544 pg 1-6
Black Panther #26- All Remaining
CW: The Confession Pg 14-22
Thunderbolts #110 pg1-5
Thunderbolts #111 pg 1-2
Thunderbolts #110 pg 18-20
Captain America #25- All
CW: Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America- Wolverine
CW: The Confession pg 1-13
Ms Marvel #13 pg 1-5
CW: The Initiative pg22-34
Mighty Avengers #1 pg4-5
Ms Marvel #13 pg 6-15 (This happens in the space of about 3 hours apparently)
Mighty Avengers #1 pg 6-7, pg12-14, pg 16 Left Hand Column, pg 18 LHC, pg20 LHC, pg 22 LHC, pg 24-27, pg 1-3, pg8-11, pg 15, Page 16-23 EXCEPT LHC, pg 28-End
Ms Marvel #13 pg16-End
New Avengers #28 pg5-19
New Avengers 27-All
New Avengers #28 pg 1-4, 20-22
Omega Flight #1- All
Ms Marvel #14- All
CW: The Initative pg 1-12
Thunderbolts #110 pg 6-17, 21-22
Thunderbolts #111- All
Thunderbolts #112- All
CW: The Initative pg 13-21
Iron Man #15- All
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 6, 2007 22:23:55 GMT -5
you mean I'm not allowed to read an entire issue? Page numbers,.. man that's comprehensive. I would exalt you for going into so much detail, but I've used my 4 for this week and wouldn't want to upset you  |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 7, 2007 4:58:15 GMT -5
Heh. Well in many cases the page numbers are essential for it to be read in proper order (IE: Ms Marvel and Mighty Avengers.) In other cases (IE: Reading Mighty Avengers in such a wierd way) it's jsut me being nitpicky |
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Post by thew40 on Apr 7, 2007 11:36:51 GMT -5
Heh. Well in many cases the page numbers are essential for it to be read in proper order (IE: Ms Marvel and Mighty Avengers.) In other cases (IE: Reading Mighty Avengers in such a wierd way) it's jsut me being nitpicky Agreed . . . for the most part. However, I do disagree with having "Civil War" # 7 in there. Breaking up Reed's letter kinda hurts the flow of the story. While it does gloss over the events of the "Intiative," it can be seen as the end of that particular story - showing the reader of "Civil War" that the Marvel Universe does indeed go on. But that's just me. Kudos and exalt for taking on this task! ~W~ |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 7, 2007 12:08:33 GMT -5
I see your point and I did deliberate on Civil War 7, but in the end I felt it was necessary if only for the final few pages. As you can see, I don't break up Reed's letter since that wouldn't make sense- that's all in one chunk. I DO however intersperse the concluding scenes of CW7 with the scenes from Frontline 11 as that's the order they occur in.
So I fully understand your view but I thought it was necessary personally, otherwise Frontline 11 is coming in "in the middle" of the story and since one of the key thrusts of "The Initative" is actually the death of Cap, I wanted to get in Cap's arrest and the first conversation with him post-arrest, which occurs in 11, into the checklist.
...I hope that made sense posting it the way it did in my head! Thanks for the exalt, the w!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 7, 2007 14:21:50 GMT -5
how do you fit Falle Son in here? Or would you?
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Post by thew40 on Apr 7, 2007 16:25:43 GMT -5
I see your point and I did deliberate on Civil War 7, but in the end I felt it was necessary if only for the final few pages. As you can see, I don't break up Reed's letter since that wouldn't make sense- that's all in one chunk. I DO however intersperse the concluding scenes of CW7 with the scenes from Frontline 11 as that's the order they occur in. So I fully understand your view but I thought it was necessary personally, otherwise Frontline 11 is coming in "in the middle" of the story and since one of the key thrusts of "The Initative" is actually the death of Cap, I wanted to get in Cap's arrest and the first conversation with him post-arrest, which occurs in 11, into the checklist. ...I hope that made sense posting it the way it did in my head! Thanks for the exalt, the w! D'oh! That's what I get for not actually checking to see what exact pages you were using. In that case, it works just fine! As far as "Fallen Son" is concerned, I'd recommend putting it after the rest of "The Confession," simply because it's obviously not long after Cap's been brought aboard, but not long after his death. I mentioned over in the "Fallen Son" preview thread that I believe it takes place before "New Avengers." One of my reasons for this basis is that Wolverine could have claimed he may have been fooled or something. If it he really is in a state of denial (even after checking out the body), then he would have been one of the first to jump on the idea of Cap still being alive and worked on at Rykers. How's that sound, Doc? I don't mean to step on your toes or anything. ~W~ |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 7, 2007 16:40:43 GMT -5
Zero problemo, friend- I'm VERY glad of any criticisms or suggestions you can offer!  I haven't read Fallen Son yet (God...damned...LCS...) so for now I'll slot it in where you put it! |
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 7, 2007 16:45:45 GMT -5
Without knowing how the NA vs. MA thin turns out in NA, it's hard for me to decide if it would be before or after.
But your explanation is as good as any for now.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 7, 2007 17:13:05 GMT -5
Then that's what will have to work!
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Post by thew40 on May 16, 2007 16:21:47 GMT -5
Hey Doom! I'm not sure whether or not you're still doing this, but I think the most recent issue of "Fallen Son" firmly places it after "New Avengers" - probably right after this arch. One can see Wolverine's checking out the body as the offical confirmation of Cap's death, thus explaining the New Avengers raw emotions.
So it would go:
Mighty Avengers (first arc)
New Avengers (flashbacks to confrontation with Mighty Avengers)
New Avengers (first arc)
Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America
~W~
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 16, 2007 16:29:47 GMT -5
I completely forgot this! Thanks for reminding me and I'll do a BIIIG update tomorrow the w! However this is further complicated by the following: -ALL of Fallen Son takes place in roughly a WEEK between Cap 25 and Cap 26 -This in turn means the entire first Mighty Avengers arc HAS to take place within this week. (Since it is their formation and they are formed and all by the time Fallen Son starts) It seems too light for that but it's all that makes sense unfortunately. -This means the entirety of New Avengers first arc has to take place in this week (Since it only really makes sense before the funeral and Hawkeye presumably joins them just after his meeting with Iron Man) Which means a one week period with what will probably be 6 New Avengers issues, six Mighty Avengers, five Fallen Son and two Ms Marvels. And they say nothing happens in the marvel universe! (The order, were I to guess goes roughly- and I'll obviously be doing this with PAGES tomorrow: Day 1- Death of Cap Day 2- The Confession Day 3- Formation of Mighty Avengers Day 4- Fallen Son 1-3 (all on one day) Day 5- New Avengers vs Mighty Avengers, Hawkeye joins Day 6- New Avengers in Japan Day 7- ?? Day 8- Fallen Son 5: Funeral of Cap. Cap 26. |
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Post by thew40 on May 16, 2007 16:55:04 GMT -5
Wha? When is it said that Cap 25 and 26 take place with a week of each other?
Also, I now firmly believe that "Fallen Son" takes place AFTER "New Avengers" first arc because at the end of the most recent issue of "Fallen Son," Tony mentions Clint going back to Peter and Luke.
~W~
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 24, 2007 18:19:59 GMT -5
It would still have to be crammed into roughly the same time fram because it NA fights the already formed MA
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Post by thew40 on May 25, 2007 16:33:10 GMT -5
Agreed, Nutcase. It should be pointed out that the nonfrontation between the New and Mighty takes place within 24 hours of their arrival in Japan (let's spare the ninja jokes for now). And the first arc in Mighty takes places within the span of a few hours (thus far).
So, I believe the order goes something like this . . .
Day One
Captain America # 25
Civil War: The Confession
Day Two
Civil War: The Intiative
Mighty Avengers # 1-current
Day Three
New Avengers Flashback material
Day Four
New Avengers # 27-current
Day Five
Fallen Son (thus far, all takes place within the same time peroid)
Captain America # 26
It's a little shakey. I would have placed Captain America # 26 a week or two after his actual death, but five days works.
As far as explaining the lack of raw emotions involving Cap's death in NA, it could be said the New Avengers team just doesn't know what to think. Is Cap dead? Tony (Carol, really) decieved them before. Why should they believe it?
But then, after the mission in Japan (theoretically), Wolverine confirms that he's dead. Plus, they have a chance to realize that he really is dead with all the coverage and maybe even hearing the truth from Nick Fury.
~W~
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 26, 2007 6:42:01 GMT -5
The sad thing is that we are paying a lot more attention to placing this into a correctly occuring timeline than,... say,... the writers.
I don't think they really worry too much about timelines, just put out the product. I know that's a negative point of view but there is a lot of stuff crammed into a short period of time here. I just don't think they're focused much on time frame.
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Post by thew40 on May 26, 2007 12:16:34 GMT -5
The sad thing is that we are paying a lot more attention to placing this into a correctly occuring timeline than,... say,... the writers. I don't think they really worry too much about timelines, just put out the product. I know that's a negative point of view but there is a lot of stuff crammed into a short period of time here. I just don't think they're focused much on time frame. Agreed. Plus, things could get messed up between editors. People could simply not be getting e-mails or something and don't realize the mistakes until someone else (ie. fans) point it out. ~W~ |
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 26, 2007 19:15:15 GMT -5
I do think you and Doom both deserve exalts for even attempting to wade through this read order. One for you now and one for him later.
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Post by thew40 on May 27, 2007 9:39:54 GMT -5
Thanks, Nutcase!
In the meantime, it occured to me also that Bendis probably had his plans for MA and NA set out before Fallen Son story was even concieved. Hence, even more problems.
~W~
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 24, 2007 7:32:53 GMT -5
Here is the most updated version, sorry for the delay. Note that I haven't been able to fully check it and divide up by pages, which is necessary especially for Punisher War Journal and Mighty Avengers #2, but it will do for now. Still not perfect, in fact ion many places it doesn't workj but not my fault. The week after the death of Cap (Between Cap #25 and Cap #26) is INCREDIBLY crowded. During ttis week: A) The Mighty Avengers HAVE to be formed (Can be no later or earlier) B) The New Avengers HAVE to get Clint (Cannot be later or earlier) C) The entire Fallen Son series takes place D) The Ms Marvel tie-ins to Mighty Avengers #1 happen. E) Part of "The Initiative" special takes place. This obviously does not make logical sense as it means the Skrull discovery was made before most of the initiative had taken place and within mere weeks of civil war #7 but it's all that works. Where this checklist ends, the w's begins! (Thank GOD he did a WWH one before I tried ) Black Panther #26 pg 1-2, 6 Civil War #7 pg 1-21 CW: Frontline #11 pg1-5 Black Panther #26 pg 3-4 Civil War #7- pg 22 panels 1-3 CW Frontline #11 pg6-32 Civil War #7 pg22 panel 4-pg28 Black Panther pg 5-10 Fantastic Four #543- All Black Panther #26- pg11-12 Fantastic Four #544 pg 1-6 Black Panther #26- All Remaining Fantastic Four #544- All Remaining Fantastic Four #545- All Fantastic Four #546- All Black Panther #27- All CW: The Confession Pg 14-22 Thunderbolts #110 pg1-5 Thunderbolts #111 pg 1-2 Thunderbolts #110 pg 18-20 Avengers: The Initiative #1- All Captain America #25- All CW: The Confession pg 1-13 Ms Marvel #13 pg 1-5 CW: The Initiative pg22-34 Mighty Avengers #1 pg4-5 Ms Marvel #13 pg 6-15 (This happens in the space of about 3 hours apparently) Mighty Avengers #1 pg 6-7, pg12-14, pg 16 RHC, pg 18 RHC, pg20 RHC, pg 22 RHC, pg 24-27, pg 1-3, pg8-11, pg 15, Page 16-23 EXCEPT RHC, pg 28-End Mighty Avengers #2 Mighty Avengers #3- All Ms Marvel #13 pg16-End Avengers: The Initiative #2- All New Avengers #28 pg5-19 New Avengers #29 pg New Avengers #30 pg Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America- Wolverine Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America- Avengers Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America- Captain America Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America- Spider-Man Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America- Iron Man Captain America #26 New Avengers 27-All New Avengers #28 pg 1-4, 20-22 Punisher: War Journal #6- All Punisher: War Journal #7- All Punisher: War Journal #8- All Captain America #27 Omega Flight #1- All Omega Flight #2- All Omega Flight #3- All Ms Marvel #14- All Avengers: The Initiative #3- All CW: The Initative pg 1-12 Moon Knight #11 Thunderbolts #110 pg 6-17, 21-22 Thunderbolts #111- All Thunderbolts #112- All Ms Marvel #15- All Ms Marvel #16- All New Warriors #1 CW: The Initative pg 13-21 Iron Man #15- All Nova #2- All Nova #3- All Thunderbolts #113- All Thunderbolts #114- All Iron Man #16- All Sub-Mariner #1 Iron Man #17- All Iron Man #18- All World War Hulk #1 |
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Post by thew40 on Jun 25, 2007 8:26:33 GMT -5
Looking good, Doom. How many "Intiative" issues are left, by the way?
Also . . . has anyone attempted to do a "Disassembled" Read Order? I only have the Captain America, Avengers and Fantastic Four issues of "Disassembled," otherwise I would have tried it out.
~W~
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 25, 2007 10:41:25 GMT -5
For Disassembled it's utterly pointless because so few of the tie-ins are remotely related. As far as I remember, the ONLY FF tie-ins consisted of "Hmm. Wonder where those Avengers are." That was basically it.
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Post by thew40 on Jun 26, 2007 10:44:45 GMT -5
For Disassembled it's utterly pointless because so few of the tie-ins are remotely related. As far as I remember, the ONLY FF tie-ins consisted of "Hmm. Wonder where those Avengers are." That was basically it. Yeah, I remember that. But I always thought it was part of the story in a different sense. Like, because the Avengers weren't around the handle the problem, the Fantastic Four were called in and saved the day, thus boosting their reputation again. I did a House of M read order a few years ago. I'll be using it again when I get to it with the Uncanny X-Periment. ~W~ |
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Post by Nutcase65 on Jul 13, 2007 20:37:08 GMT -5
reading what is happening currently your timeline is a little frayed toward the end. I think the timeline you lay out would be better, I just still don't see them paying a lot of attention to sticking to a timeline.
I think, as a rule, they arent really comsidering our collective intelligence. They don't take into account that things for most comic readers have to have a certain logic to them. This is one of the thing that I think tends to disappoint some of the longer term individuals.
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