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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 13, 2007 15:26:50 GMT -5
Actually Balok, Reed was written as a spineless flunky who did what he did because he suddenly believed, in contrast with DECADES which said otherwise, that the law was the law. Ask almost any FF fan and they'll defend the issue where it's revealed that it was because of equations as 100% in-character for Reed.
What you regard as "theft" is not regarded as such even by a majority here on this decidedly anti-reg site.
Carol's deception is VERY far from conscienceless and is no worse than the despicable move by Strange of making Jan relive being hit by her husband, in addition to several other things.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 16:07:34 GMT -5
To be fair, Carol thought he was alive at the time she passed the info, and had no chance to change that perception.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 13, 2007 16:10:27 GMT -5
...No, she didn't though. It was after his death.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 13, 2007 16:18:18 GMT -5
I have to take you to task when it come to Ulysses S. Grant, Nutcase. Now, about the general during the American Civil War I don't know, but many reputed historians consider president Grant's term as one of the most corrupt periods in american government's history...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 16:31:51 GMT -5
I have to take you to task when it come to Ulysses S. Grant, Nutcase. Now, about the general during the American Civil War I don't know, but many reputed historians consider president Grant's term as one of the most corrupt periods in american government's history... As a General though, he was highly respected. Not that there may have been some corruption there as well. Just pointing out, that there are good and bad folks on either side of most conflicts and that it is not always correct to lump them all together under one banner.
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Post by balok on Apr 13, 2007 17:25:27 GMT -5
Carol's deception is VERY far from conscienceless and is no worse than the despicable move by Strange of making Jan relive being hit by her husband, in addition to several other things. Have you read the actual issue? Because, again, this scene isn't in the pages linked in the original post. Nevermind. I found the post on the other thread where you read the actual issue. I suspect that instead of a "zombie Cap" this spell drew out buried fears. I doubt Dr. Strange actually reanimated Cap's corpse and brought it there. Whether on not Tony's worst fear would be of a zombie Cap still remains an open question; there are many, many things in his life that matter to him more than Cap following the Civil War - the two of them fell out rather bitterly over that, and I doubt Tony cares much whether Cap lives or dies, and likewise for Cap (were he still alive). Betrayal, which each of them feels the other did, tends to kill friendships.
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Post by balok on Apr 13, 2007 17:34:27 GMT -5
Actually Balok, Reed was written as a spineless flunky who did what he did because he suddenly believed, in contrast with DECADES which said otherwise, that the law was the law. Ask almost any FF fan and they'll defend the issue where it's revealed that it was because of equations as 100% in-character for Reed. But there's the question of whether he would even have supported that law without the sociological math they stole from Asimov. That silly plot device is what turned him spineless. What you regard as "theft" is not regarded as such even by a majority here on this decidedly anti-reg site. That's okay with me. I know theft when I see it, and Pym stood by and watched it happen. But he was already in the rotten book for his work on creating Clor, along with Reed (again) and Tony (again), if you need more. PLUS he's in the rotten book generally for dotting his wife's eyes. Carol's deception is VERY far from conscienceless and is no worse than the despicable move by Strange of making Jan relive being hit by her husband, in addition to several other things. She knew Cap was dead. She perpetrated that hoax, and drew the New Avengers into a despicable trap. She stays in the bad book. In fact, one might make the case that Dr. Strange sought to defend his friends using the most non-lethal method in his arsenal, when none of them could use their powers and after they'd been drawn into that trap. In creating that trap, Tony and Carol moved the game to a new level of despicable, and now you're whining on their behalf because they caught a bloody nose? They're lucky they're not Iron Toad, Wonder Skink, Ms. Newt, The Wasp-Frog, and Sentry the Gecko!
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 13, 2007 19:21:19 GMT -5
Hah! That reminded me of the time Loki turned Thor into a frog...!!!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 23:20:20 GMT -5
She knew Cap was dead. She perpetrated that hoax, and drew the New Avengers into a despicable trap. She stays in the bad book. I was under the impression that when she talked to spider-woman, Carol believed it herself. It was when she got back to Tony that she found out that HE had used her to set the trap. So she didn't intentionally do any of that. Also while she was talking to SW she wasn't trying to set a trap but to truly convince her friend to come back into the fold. Again something that Tony would not have allowed. Her intentions were sincere.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 14, 2007 2:42:54 GMT -5
I haven't weighed in on any of the points being discussed here so here goes.
1. I don't agree that Ms. Marvel has shown evidence of being corrupt. I haven't agreed with many of her decisions including her arrest of Julia Carpenter in front of her daughter or her general mindless backing of the registration. However, I do believe that she has been trying to do the right thing. My lack of agreeing with her doesn't make her corrupt. If she had done the things she's done for personal gain instead of because she thought it was right, that's corruption.
2. I don't necessarily think that there couldn't be a reason to take Armory's weapon away from her. If someone has a deadly ability that they use carelessly and it takes someones life, wouldn't removing the ability and allowing that person to lead an otherwise normal life be more humane than locking that person up (She certainly could be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter) for life? The downside, in this particular case is that I think the people initiating the punishment were just as guilty as she was. As nutcase pointed out earlier, before doing any of the training that these kids were supposedly there for, they just launched them into a dangerous situation. I can't imagine that the police academy starts off on day one by saying "Okay, here's some real guns with real ammunition. Let's have a mock drug raid. Half of you are the cops and half are the drug dealers. Let's see what happens. Go!" That's not training. For that reason, I think a better decision here would be to try to nuetralize or put some kind of control on the weapon so that Arsenal would not be able to use it in uncontrolled situations until she has proper training. With Stark technology behind them and Reed Richards to boot, I'm sure they could come up with something like this.
3. One of the main problems I have with the registration backers and the initiative in general is the assumption that, with proper training, these heroes won't repeat a situation similar to what happened in Stanford. The thing is, with the exception of the fact that the NW were grandstanding for a reality show (Which was dumb in itself) they did not handle this situation much differently than the way the more experienced Marvel heroes have always done it. The Thing, Human Torch, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, Quicksilver, Hercules, Spider-man, and many others have long histories of barrelling in first and asking questions later. Without this, half the issues of Marvel Team Up would never have happened. They were constantly filled with heroes battling heroes until they realized they acted too hastily and should be working together. The Avengers themselves have often fought battles in public places. In one of their greatest and most dangereous conflicts, a large number of Avengers took a battle directly to Michael Korvac in the middle of a populated residential area. And several of these Avengers are the ones doing the training now. Look at one of the primary teachers, Ms. Marvel. Just recently, when the New Avengers were facing the Collective - Ironman was successfully communicating with him and calming him down when Carol showed up and attacked him, forcing the situation out of control again. This could have easily become another Stamford if not for the (And saying this hurts me as much much as Simon Cowell giving a compliment to Sanjaya) Sentry taking the battle away from the populated area. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for training, I just don't buy the arguments I've seen appearing many times that the Initiative will prevent future incidents like Stamford.
4. As an overall review of the book, I found it interesting, and am planning to continue buying it. I did hate to see, what seemed like the character with the most potential, get bumped off so quickly, but maybe they're planning on him being the new Thunderbird. I just hope that the book will focus on the few new characters already introduced on long established characters. One aspect I really don't like about the initiative is the sheer number of characters. I stopped buying and books with X in the title some time back because the number of mutants I had to keep up with just got to be too much. I see that happening here. Several new characters were introduced in another book (I can't recall the title but involved some new Hercules character), several more here, and I was clueless as to who half the cast of the latest She-Hulk were. Combine this with coming up with enough characters, new or obscure, to create 50 teams and things are just out of control. Marvel encyclopedias can be fun to look at and are a great way to bring new readers up to date, but they shouldn't be required for long term readers. This actually made me not mind the mutant decimation because it brought the number of characters back down to a slightly more reasonable range, however here we go again. This just makes me wonder if the whole thing isn't just a set up for a great crossover event in which hundreds of super powered heroes die in a great purge that can't happen unless the MU has a cast of thousands.
Oh, one suggestion. When starting a new thread such as this one it might not be a bad idea to tell which number 1 is being discussed in the title. With the number of new titles coming out every month it would make it easier to be sure whether we're discussing Initiative:Avengers, Initiative: Civil War, Omega Flight, Mighty Avengers, etc. without having to look back at the first page when posters get off subject midway through, which invariably happens.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 14, 2007 4:10:13 GMT -5
Very nice post Spiderwasp. I still maintain that Julia was worse than Carol in that confrontation since she tried to use her daughter as a shield and should never have put her parents in danger anyway.
Civil War #6 showed us the new Champions, with a new Hercules in them. THey're getting a maxi-series this July by the most excellent Matt Fraction (Current writer; Punisher War Journal, Co-writer of Iron Fist) and are entirely new characters except Tony Stark and Pepper Potts, though the concept they've taken is, as far as I know, unique in hero history.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 14, 2007 10:16:36 GMT -5
Very nice post Spiderwasp. I still maintain that Julia was worse than Carol in that confrontation since she tried to use her daughter as a shield and should never have put her parents in danger anyway. I more recall that Julia was trying to get away and take her daughter with her more than trying to use her as a SHIELD shield however, I would agree that a more logical move would have been to take her daughter and head to Canada or some other country right away rather than throw herself in the line of fire by pretending to be on the registration side. After all, she had to have registered in order to pull that off, so they would have let her leave and then couldn't have called her into service till she returned. She could have acted more logically if getting her daughter out of the country was her primary concern, but on the other hand, if Carol had let her go, it wouldn't have exactly been like letting Bullseye, Green Goblin, or Venom run free, but then no one would intentionally let real criminals like that run free. But hey, even though we may differ concerning who was right, at least we are in agreement that Carol wasn't acting out of corruption. We can celebrate one small step into the land of consensus. Civil War #6 showed us the new Champions, with a new Hercules in them. THey're getting a maxi-series this July by the most excellent Matt Fraction (Current writer; Punisher War Journal, Co-writer of Iron Fist) and are entirely new characters except Tony Stark and Pepper Potts, though the concept they've taken is, as far as I know, unique in hero history. Thanks, I remembered reading it but just couldn't recall where.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 14, 2007 23:23:35 GMT -5
Very nice post Spiderwasp. I still maintain that Julia was worse than Carol in that confrontation since she tried to use her daughter as a shield and should never have put her parents in danger anyway. [ Doom, there was a scene in NA I liked. The scene where Cage just wants to buy some milk. He just wants some normalcy. I don't think she was using her daughter as a shield. I think she just wanted life to be normal, and if she acted normal, maybe life would BE normal again. Walking out to your car is a very normal thing. Maybe not the best or smartest thing in the given situation, but a normal act. That's what it seems to me they are portraying here.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 16, 2007 14:43:40 GMT -5
Did he get to say "Got milk...?"?
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Post by scottharris on May 11, 2007 12:44:44 GMT -5
Ulysses S. Grant was not corrupt, either as a general or in office. There was a great deal of corruption during his term but none of it was from Grant himself. As far as I know the only time he has ever been accused of being personally corrupt is on this forum thread.
I haven't read this comic, but I find it interesting to read these reviews of it; the scenes described seem in some ways to be very reminiscent of scenes in the Watchmen. The idea that the government is sending people with powers to Iraq reminds me of the section showing Dr. Manhattan decimating Vietnam; similarly, the part where Yellowjacket stands by during the death of MVP echoes the sequence where Dr. Manhattan watches and does nothing as the Comedian murders a pregnant woman, only to protest afterwards.
Of course, the Watchmen presented these scenes as both a political indictment and a commentary on the folly of attempting to bring "realism" into comics without the attendant breakdown in the "heroic" aspect of superheroes. At times it does seem as though this whole SHRA arc in Marvel is attempting to do the same, which seems to me to be a strange thing for a comic book company to do, epecially as the execution of this idea has on a whole been quite poor compared to Watchmen or even Squadron Supreme. I certainly hope that somewhere down the road there is some payoff, but with sales as strong as they are, I find it unlikely.
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