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Post by woodside on Nov 14, 2007 22:05:53 GMT -5
I know some people have said that this story has slowed, but man-oh-man, what an epic. I just read all five issues of the mini. And I gotta say HELL YEAH!
The ending, esspecially, was simply mind-blowing.
The Sentry/Hulk battle was incredible. Not outside the realm of what we've seen thus far in WWH, but still it was pretty wild.
Meik's betrayal and THE DEATH OF RICK JONES was a stunning twist. And poor Hulk! When he went ape-nuts crazy in the end and eventually demanded that he get put down . . . I really felt for him.
"I'll hate you forever! But not as much as I hate myself!"
Drama!
A few threads left dangling, of course.
Oh. And that last page . . . THE SON OF THE HULK!
This was the perfect sequel to the epic "Planet Hulk."
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Post by Black Knight on Nov 15, 2007 8:50:23 GMT -5
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 15, 2007 12:01:52 GMT -5
Sorry, w. Stunning though it is, I just can';t agree.
The ending was stronger than I expected, indeed stronger than 2 or 4, but not great. 1 was great, everything afterwards went downhill. A few points though;
1- I'm pretty sure Rick Jones isn't dead
2- Miek was blatantly obvious. At least to me. We KNEW it wasn't the Illuminati, foir thematic progress it had to be one of the Warbound. And Miek was the obvious choice since he's been acting clearly evil.
3- I was supposed to feel sorry in some way for Hulk. Yeah, sorry Bruce, you lost that right when you beat the crap out of like twenty heroes, brutally tortured them then made them fight almost to the death before their family and friends for personal satisfaction. Oh, and did I mention... IT WAS THE WRONG PEOPLE!
4- The fight was awesome, no question. And even the ending rocked. But really... so much happened afterwords, it was redundant. Sentry can literally be removed from this mini and it can function.
5- Don't even get me started on Hulk's spotaneous radiation outburst and the sattelite rubbish.
6-The art was beautiful.
So maybe a 6 out of 10. Maybe. At least it saves the crossover from being bad (something 4 was close to) and makes it merely forgettable.
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Post by goldenfist on Nov 15, 2007 13:55:57 GMT -5
Who the heck thought of the Son of Hulk idea.
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Post by woodside on Nov 15, 2007 14:16:13 GMT -5
Didn't anyone read "Planet Hulk?"
The explosion was an accident. Hulk just saw to blame the Illuminati because they were the ones that sent him (and his ship) to Sakarr in the first place. Meik was to blame because he didn't stop anyone from loading up the untable and ruined warp core. His actions certainly stunned me!
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 16, 2007 5:06:45 GMT -5
The spoilers are surprising. The incredible... Hercules?!  For me WWH was a 5/10, nothing I'll remember for a long time but nice fighting scenes. I nearly expected Hulk to be dead by the end, but no such luck ;D Now it looks like there will be a
Red Hulk which for me is even less intriguing, but I'm not a fan of the Green goliath, so I don't care too much.
PS, I don't think that Rick is dead. Wasn't he still alive by the end of the issue? |
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Post by goldenfist on Nov 16, 2007 11:59:03 GMT -5
Well at least World War Hulk is over, How come some people
don't like the Hulk.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 16, 2007 15:51:40 GMT -5
Didn't anyone read "Planet Hulk?" The explosion was an accident. Hulk just saw to blame the Illuminati because they were the ones that sent him (and his ship) to Sakarr in the first place. Meik was to blame because he didn't stop anyone from loading up the untable and ruined warp core. His actions certainly stunned me! The explosion was never an accident. We always knew SOMEONE had to have set off the warp core. Simple drama suggests it couldn't be an accident and we'd have to find out who did it. Simple storytelling and characterization meant it couldn't be the obvious ones- the Illuminati. Hulk blamed the Illuminati's warp core but more astute fans knew otherwise- in Incredible Hulk 100's back-up story, Reed mentions that they never put a warp core in the ship. When I re-read that, I knew it wasn't the Illuminati. That meant probably the Warbound. And that in turn meant probably Miek. |
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Post by woodside on Nov 16, 2007 16:32:13 GMT -5
Hulk blamed the Illuminati's warp core but more astute fans knew otherwise- in Incredible Hulk 100's back-up story, Reed mentions that they never put a warp core in the ship. I didn't even notice that! Egads, I just assumed it was an accident, which led to the shock that is Meik. |
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 18, 2007 18:46:48 GMT -5
So obviously my viewpoint won't be shared by those who loved this story, however I do have several questions:
Hulk did actually hurt maim and or kill (at least according to Marvel solicits at the beginning of this saga) a good portion of Las Vegas. In the finale I read he never really accepts any culpability or accepts any punishment as being remotely fair in retaliation for this act. Is this ever addressed in the series?
The Hulk being really angry now means virtually no force can overcome him? Sentry unleashed seemed to be his upper limit, but he also seemed to weather it fairly well, true? If so, what exactly will the limit should he ever come back as an anti hero?
Does Banner ever come out during WW Hulk or Planet Hulk? I recall any number of times where he considered suicide because of his affliction. I have to imagine he would not have approved of this course of action.
In the prior act of Planet Hulk, the Hulk was weakened to the point where he could barely survive this warworld. Wasn't he presumably angry at that point (being exiled) and shouldn't his being angry have just made him impervious to pain and fatigue? And shouldn't his anger have made him stronger so that his victory was never in doubt?
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Post by woodside on Nov 18, 2007 22:19:42 GMT -5
So obviously my viewpoint won't be shared by those who loved this story, however I do have several questions: Hulk did actually hurt maim and or kill (at least according to Marvel solicits at the beginning of this saga) a good portion of Las Vegas. In the finale I read he never really accepts any culpability or accepts any punishment as being remotely fair in retaliation for this act. Is this ever addressed in the series? This is a prime example of misinformation on the part of Marvel. While in "New Avengers: Illuminati," it was stated that the Hulk killed people, it was said in the WWH issues of "Hulk" that he didn't. In a post-WWH interview, it was then said that the Hulk has killed people, but never on purpose or only if said person is incredibly evil. Probably a good question for "Red Hulk." He came out once or twice in "Planet Hulk" and at the end of WWH. He was on the fence about being exiled, but was just as pissed as the Hulk in regards to the destruction of Sakarr and the death Cieria. [quote[ In the prior act of Planet Hulk, the Hulk was weakened to the point where he could barely survive this warworld. Wasn't he presumably angry at that point (being exiled) and shouldn't his being angry have just made him impervious to pain and fatigue? And shouldn't his anger have made him stronger so that his victory was never in doubt? [/quote] While he was angry when he was first exiled, he was also exhausted after the trip and the previous battle with that robot thing. Furthermore, in the end, not only was his new world, wife, and unborn child all killed by (who he believed) were his friends, but he also lost the peace he had found on Sakarr. Read together, all of these questions are answered throughout Planet Hulk, the WWH issues of Hulk, and WWH itself. It is a truly awesome Hulk tale. Among the best - if not the best - I've ever read. I'm a little confused as to why no one liked this (well, except for you, bendisbites; you don't like what seems to be 99.5% of what Marvel produces these days). |
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 19, 2007 1:34:06 GMT -5
I find the explanation of hulk being tired and weak after a lengthy space trip, yet has no problem pretty much beating up the entire heroic force assembled against him with ridiculous ease to not be to my satisfaction.
It just seems forced. You don't have to agree. But ultimately it's what you choose to be within your parameters of acceptable story liberties.
It's not in mine.
And my point is if Hulk comes back in anything similar to his original incarnation (and original flavor Hulk will likely come back at some point) what could possibly stop him?
As we've seen here, getting really angry allows him to stand up to the Sentry at full force, which has been described as a thousand bursting suns or some such?
A fight with the U Foes is going to be somewhat lacking in the drama after you've established this level of power.
And character-wise, The Hulk never owns up to the responsibility of his actions, which makes this epic somewhat lacking in full arc. What did the character learn from this war? Hulk remains fairly defiant and appears fully satisfied with much of what he's done. Only the betrayal seems to set him off, not the fact that he may have jeopardized the livelihood of millions of people in Las Vegas who may not be dead, but are almost certainly homeless and poverty stricken at this point and some deaths will result from his callous indifference to their lives.
For a story to be successful TO ME, I need that plot point addressed. Marvel introduced it, now FOR ME, they need to bring it full circle.
From all accounts, they did not. And I do not enjoy the story because it doesn't resolve a very major point, the catalyst for all their actions that lead to this circumstance.
And Marvel does this consistently now, which is why I don't enjoy 99% of their product.
I just think it's poor storytelling.
Look at Future Imperfect. bad Hulk in future, Less bad Hulk is snatched from past, realizes what a monster he is, decides to stop him. Horrible future full of death and destruction and absolute monarchy is prevented. The story has its conflict and resolves it in an interesting fashion.
I honestly don't understand why wanting a level of storytelling that reaches this standard makes me a bad marvel fan.
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Post by woodside on Nov 19, 2007 15:11:08 GMT -5
The trip wasn't just Hulk hangin' out in a ship. Bare in mind that moments before he crashed, he had his gamma energy leeched off and was fighting in space. That, as well as the vortex itself, is what exhausted him.
Hulk's power is fueled by his anger. If he calms down, then his enemies will become viable threats once more because his strength won't be as high.
As far as Las Vegas goes, I'm sure it does sit on Hulk/Banner mind, but correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't he mind-controlled then? BUT, the fact is, he was sentenced without even being tried. He was just launched into space, lied to, saved the world from an AI, then launched into the depths of space by those he considered to be his friends.
As far as the plot point being unresolved, I must argue that this is an on-going story. It's unresolved because it's a subplot. Resolving it would be like saying "Okay, well, Vision and Wanda are married. Now, let's send them on their way and let them raise a family and every now and then, the Avengers will get a postcard from them." And then we never see them again.
"Future Imperfect" is a one-shot story. It was intended to be open-and-close. And, as time went on, it was re-opened more than a few times. Planet Hulk/WWH/Red Hulk is all part of a larger story.
And I didn't say you were a bad Marvel fan, just that you obviously just don't like anything Marvel puts out. Nothing personal, but you critize a comic for having a subplot or a mystery element. Want's wrong with that?
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 19, 2007 16:06:09 GMT -5
The trip wasn't just Hulk hangin' out in a ship. Bare in mind that moments before he crashed, he had his gamma energy leeched off and was fighting in space. That, as well as the vortex itself, is what exhausted him. Hulk's power is fueled by his anger. If he calms down, then his enemies will become viable threats once more because his strength won't be as high. As far as Las Vegas goes, I'm sure it does sit on Hulk/Banner mind, but correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't he mind-controlled then? BUT, the fact is, he was sentenced without even being tried. He was just launched into space, lied to, saved the world from an AI, then launched into the depths of space by those he considered to be his friends. As far as the plot point being unresolved, I must argue that this is an on-going story. It's unresolved because it's a subplot. Resolving it would be like saying "Okay, well, Vision and Wanda are married. Now, let's send them on their way and let them raise a family and every now and then, the Avengers will get a postcard from them." And then we never see them again. "Future Imperfect" is a one-shot story. It was intended to be open-and-close. And, as time went on, it was re-opened more than a few times. Planet Hulk/WWH/Red Hulk is all part of a larger story. And I didn't say you were a bad Marvel fan, just that you obviously just don't like anything Marvel puts out. Nothing personal, but you critize a comic for having a subplot or a mystery element. Want's wrong with that? If hulk was mind controlled why wasn't it made clear? Again, this is a hallmark of bad storytelling. The catalyst for your story is never recapped in a miniseries that may pull readers who don't read the regular books. If I, as a casual reader, pick up World War Hulk because of all the hullabaloo there should not be huge points that started the story that are omitted or barely covered from the miniseries or series within a series. Also you don't take a huge reaching character arc in a miniseries and then say "you don't get a third act- you don't get a resolution"- buy the regular book instead. Let's take Vision and Scarlet Witch. Their 12 issue miniseries from years back involved the birth of their children. The conception and delivery were covered. It would have been a poor story if they'd introduced the pregnancy, made it the focus of the story and then said "we'll let you know the repercussions and what happens to these characters because of this specific event at some other time. Buy Avengers for the next two years and maybe there we'll explain it." I dunno, that wouldn't have satisfied me. And again the explanation I found was that the warp had weakened Hulk to the point where he could be killed, yet no other power on Earth seemed to weaken him even slightly. Black Bolt's scream, which is supposed to be the equivalent of a nuclear weapon without resultant radiation and Hulk walked through it like a summer shower. yet a space warp nearly killed him. Sentry, thousand suns, full power, Hulk seemed to be holding his own. yet a space warp nearly killed him. And the Hulk's been really mad before. Jarella was killed, Betty died, he was a creature of pure rage during crossroads and never displayed this level of unstoppablility. I just think there was a way to do this story without these storytelling omissions and what I consider overreaches. Re-read Peter David's cunning Joe Fixit Hulk to see how a cruel cunning weaker Hulk was beating his opponents in a way that made you think (eg. when he beat the Thing by luring him underwater and giving him the Heimlich maneuver). I think much like the unstoppable Skrulls now in Secret Invasion, it's just lazy storytelling. How do you make someone or something a threat? Just amp up the power level and ignore previous stories. And while Future Imperfect served as a launch pad for future stories, the original story still gave you the ABC of storytelling. Introduction, conflict, resolution. Keep in mind resolution doesn't mean happy ending, just the points you introduce in the beginning of a story are addressed by the finale of the story. I don't think Civil War was a good story, but it did do these things. There were still unresolved plot points, but if you bought Civil War to find out whether registration or anti registration forces would win in their conflict and if their viewpoints would be explored, you got that facet of the story. WWHulk should as well. Now if I buy WWHulk as a trade paperback, I'm an unsatisfied reader. And I now have to go buy a bunch of books I didn't necessarily want to buy to resolve the storyline. Maybe. there's no guarantee they're going to bring the various plot points about the mind control or what banner did or anything of that nature to the forefront for several years given the new Hulk after all. I just don't think that's good for your readers. |
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Post by woodside on Nov 19, 2007 16:52:42 GMT -5
And again the explanation I found was that the warp had weakened Hulk to the point where he could be killed, yet no other power on Earth seemed to weaken him even slightly. Black Bolt's scream, which is supposed to be the equivalent of a nuclear weapon without resultant radiation and Hulk walked through it like a summer shower. yet a space warp nearly killed him. Sentry, thousand suns, full power, Hulk seemed to be holding his own. Did you even read what I wrote? He was even more angry at the fact that heroes betrayed him and (as he thought) killed his peaceful little world. And the space warp didn't nearly kill him. If someone picks up WWH and sees that they need to read Planet Hulk (which, if they're a Hulk fan, shouldn't be that big of a problem), then what's the big deal? It makes money for Marvel and we can keep getting quality comics.  I'm done debating this with you. Your arguement just doesn't hold up at all to me. "A continuing storyline that links various stories? Gasp! Curse those Marvel people! Joe Quesada should have just stuck to eatting babies before he approved this crazy idea!" |
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 19, 2007 17:09:16 GMT -5
And again the explanation I found was that the warp had weakened Hulk to the point where he could be killed, yet no other power on Earth seemed to weaken him even slightly. Black Bolt's scream, which is supposed to be the equivalent of a nuclear weapon without resultant radiation and Hulk walked through it like a summer shower. yet a space warp nearly killed him. Sentry, thousand suns, full power, Hulk seemed to be holding his own. Did you even read what I wrote? He was even more angry at the fact that heroes betrayed him and (as he thought) killed his peaceful little world. And the space warp didn't nearly kill him. If someone picks up WWH and sees that they need to read Planet Hulk (which, if they're a Hulk fan, shouldn't be that big of a problem), then what's the big deal? It makes money for Marvel and we can keep getting quality comics. I'm done debating this with you. Your arguement just doesn't hold up at all to me. "A continuing storyline that links various stories? Gasp! Curse those Marvel people! Joe Quesada should have just stuck to eatting babies before he approved this crazy idea!" Wow. Well folks, this is why so few people stay around here. The one point I'll concede is that the space warp didn't nearly kill Hulk, instead it weakened him severely to the point where he could be easily killed in a hostile environment and not recover with his usual intensity. I wonder why no hero or villain on earth in all their years of dealing with the Hulk never managed to find a way to weaken him like this. And while a story can lead to interest in preceding storylines, a miniseries should not force you to buy an open ended book for perhaps the next three or four years to get a satisfactory conclusion to the storyline. What if I don't read Hulk but want to know what's going on in Marvel in their big crossover events? Am I now forced to read Hulk for an indefinite period of time just to get a story in full? That does not seem fair at all. That's not good storytelling-- so yes maybe Joe should stick to eating babies. At least that has introduction conflict and resolution, unlike World War Hulk. Oh and considering the idea that if the Hulk was mind controlled makes a HUGE difference in the reasoning of what should happen to him, of course it needed to be addressed to the reader. Even if the heroes don't know, the reader should be clear at some point during the course of the story. It's like watching the movie M with Peter Lorre and wondering why the villagers are chasing him. Well it's because he's a child molester. If you the viewer don't know that, it just seems like he's being persecuted for no good reason. Even if it comes as a revelation at the end, you can't leave that out of the story. If he was mind controlled, the Hulk was not in control of his actions. That's vitally important for the reader to know. And considering that WW Hulk was a huge crossover event story that involve many players in the MU, you have to expect that some readers were coming in without prior knowledge. And many of those will not pick up other books like Planet Hulk because it doesn't involve the entire MU. So you've just left those readers without the proper understanding of character motivation. I'll say it again. Poor storytelling. |
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Post by goldenfist on Dec 6, 2007 14:09:44 GMT -5
Hulk wasn't mind controled at all.
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