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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 6, 2007 16:07:08 GMT -5
From IGN; he Hulk is coming back to Earth, and he intends to make war with all who dwell there. After the planet of Sakaar was inadvertently destroyed by the Illuminati's prison spaceship, the Green Goliath set off with the few who survived the planetary holocaust. He seeks to balance the scales, body for body. The Hulk has his work cut out for him however. The Earth has no shortage of powerful beings. While it's true that Bruce Banner's monstrous alter ego is more powerful than most of them, surely some of the inhabitants will pose a threat? Marvel Comics previously released preview pages of World War Hulk #1. In it we see the Hulk arrive on the Moon to challenge Black Bolt, king of the Inhumans and member of the clandestine Illuminati. The Hulk challenges Bolt to a duel and seems to overcome the king's considerable power (Bolt generates massive levels of energy when he speaks; he typically remains mute due to the immense force that can be unleashed). With Black Bolt down for the count, who else might stand a chance? In the past we've seen Tony Stark a.k.a. Iron Man stand against the might of Bruce Banner. Stark has considerable resources and has invested in "Hulkbuster" technology. What that does is pretty self-explanatory. So perhaps Iron Man will prove to be decisive force in this war? Probably not. Marvel Comics has supplied IGN Comics with an exclusive teaser entitled "Hulk's Hit List". It seems to decisively determine the fates of a few possible contenders. Black Bolt, Iron Man and the Thing all appear to fall in battle with the former King of Sakaar. So perhaps we're asking the wrong question. Maybe it's not a matter of who can beat the Hulk. Maybe that question is pointless to ask. Maybe the only thing we can wonder is: Who's Next? Well I have to say that hel;ped make me excited for WWH! If Stark is taken down early on it's a great shock twist. My bet is still on a Thor return in 5- you mark my words! Though I must question why Hulk isn't after, say, Reed or Strange but instead... Wolverine, Spider-Man, Cyclops, Ms Marvel and Tigra. Meh, we'll see soon enough.
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Post by balok on Apr 6, 2007 18:08:41 GMT -5
I don't understand why Spider-Man, and not Reed or Strange either. For that matter, why the Thing, Wolverine, Tigra, and Ms. Marvel?
It's possible that this cover contains imagery intended to confuse, as did the classic "Death of Gwen Stacy" cover which contained heads of a number of people and asked of the purchaser who would die. (The answer is in the art, for those who don't already know that.)
Far as I can see, there's only two folks on this cover that deserve a Hulk-style a**-kicking for what they did. And if their ship somehow destroyed an entire planet, then they're lucky Shooter's not still running things, or they'd be dying for their role in that (as happened to Jean Grey until she was - incorrectly, in my view - resurrected.)
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 6, 2007 18:22:19 GMT -5
Well I still say the Illuminati were more than justified in what they did- that's not an anti or pro thing, it's just my view.
Oh, and there's a difference between "malevolent spirit destroyed an entire Galaxy" and "included a charge which, wildly improbably and unbeknownst to them would react with the tectonic plates of a planet to destroy it"
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 6, 2007 19:37:22 GMT -5
A difference, yes... but it would STILL be unvoluntary manslaughter of millions of human beings... to a degree, there would still bear the responsability for it...
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 6, 2007 19:38:04 GMT -5
..make that SENTIENT beings, not human...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 6, 2007 19:48:39 GMT -5
Though I must question why Hulk isn't after, say, Reed or Strange but instead... Wolverine, Spider-Man, Cyclops, Ms Marvel and Tigra. Meh, we'll see soon enough. I bet the reason Thing is on there is BECAUSE Hulk was looking for Reed. Ms. Marvel and Spider-Man are likely just some skirmishes he gets into. These are just speculations and do not neccissarily reflect the views of Marvel Comics, this board, Dr. Doom or my mother. My wife agrees with me tho'
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 6, 2007 20:42:57 GMT -5
TIGRA? Really?
Really?
I mean, she'd be nothing more than a little smudge on the bottom of Hulk's size 26 dogs. That art has got to be totally misleading.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 6, 2007 21:26:39 GMT -5
It's because no matter how hard he's tried to train her, she just WILL NOT go in the litterbox.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 6, 2007 22:04:53 GMT -5
TIGRA? Really? Really? I mean, she'd be nothing more than a little smudge on the bottom of Hulk's size 26 dogs. “Dogs”? I thought they were called “apes” now, or do I misunderstand? In any case, I think the Hulk’s looking for Tigra because she is one bodacious babe. He wants to hit on her. I just hope he can be gentle…
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 6, 2007 22:26:37 GMT -5
when did we stop calling them boats?
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 6, 2007 22:53:15 GMT -5
I'm really of two minds on this First, I really hope Hulk does confront Reed and Dr. Strange in addition to everyone else. Regardless of their intent, the idea that you ship a 2 ton mass of destuction anywhere and know very well The Hulk can survive and escape almost anything is really just giving up. Hasn't he escaped Hell? Beaten down everything short of a Celestial? he's been in space hundreds of times and always come back. Hulk was going to become a problem again if not for them, then someone else. Plus what they did constituted cruel and unusual punishment sending Hulk to live out the rest of his life (which Reed should realize will be quite long given his gamma enhanced capabilities) in solitary confinement, which would likely lead to madness. I personally would prefer to be euthanized in such a situation and I imagine bruce banner would've chosen death over several centuries of madness as well. this was a bad cop out, and poorly thought out by the illuminati, who despite their mastery of mind, sorcery and technology couldn't think of anything better than shipping the hulk off. which seems to be the modus operandi for marvel characters these days. I hope hulk cuts a bloody swath through these characters. they pretty much deserve it. However on second thought, the idea that they would've let the Hulk live this long, given how dangerous he is is fairly silly. according to the new more real marvel, hulk has amassed a big body count, so he's a mass murderer which means he should've been sentenced and killed a long time ago. well him and just about every other villain who's ever had a grand scheme in the MU. Seriously, most Marvel villains make saddam Hussein look like dakota fanning, so there should be mass executions every other week. Uh-oh I hope I havent given Joe Q his next big idea, the summer super villain snuff spectacular. justice is served!! but uh who are they gonna fight once you kill all the villains...?
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 6, 2007 23:03:08 GMT -5
If Hulk were to completely flatten Reed Richards, except for his head, could he use him like one of those old-school paddle-ball things?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 7, 2007 7:24:44 GMT -5
Every time I see this thread’s title, I imagine Grover Dill saying it with a growl, followed by the girlish shrieks of the rabble of his would-be victims. (R.I.P. Bob Clark.)
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 7, 2007 9:21:33 GMT -5
There was nothing else to do. THey'd already established that if he could have killed himself, he would have long ago but they didn't want to go that far. They didn't just say "Right, random planet!" The finest scientific mind on Earth, along with it's Sorceror Supreme, two men rivalled in their particular fields only by one other individual (who rivals both, in each field. Three guesses who ) thought the Hulk would be able to live out his life there peaceful and contended. There was NO magical way, they already established that. His good friend Strnage thought he would be happy there- and Hell, maybe he would have. To have left him on Earth would have been monstrous, to kill him euqually obscene. They chose the lesser of several evils. To be fair, I think that whether or not you like Nu Marvel, you have to admit that's a pretty obvious retcon. Suspension of disbelief can be taken so far but to say Hulk NEVER killed ANYONE on his rampages is insane. That said, I'm against the death penalty in all cases. Every single one. No exceptions. Hell, I MADE the thread and every time I see it I picture a scene from the end of a West Wing episode where the characters are all solemnly gathered over the bedside of their compatriot, who has been shot, and as he recovers he whispers two words- "...What's next...?" ...Okay, it made sense in-context.
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 7, 2007 12:59:21 GMT -5
There was nothing else to do. THey'd already established that if he could have killed himself, he would have long ago but they didn't want to go that far. They didn't just say "Right, random planet!" The finest scientific mind on Earth, along with it's Sorceror Supreme, two men rivalled in their particular fields only by one other individual (who rivals both, in each field. Three guesses who ) thought the Hulk would be able to live out his life there peaceful and contended. There was NO magical way, they already established that. His good friend Strnage thought he would be happy there- and Hell, maybe he would have. To have left him on Earth would have been monstrous, to kill him euqually obscene. They chose the lesser of several evils. To be fair, I think that whether or not you like Nu Marvel, you have to admit that's a pretty obvious retcon. Suspension of disbelief can be taken so far but to say Hulk NEVER killed ANYONE on his rampages is insane. That said, I'm against the death penalty in all cases. Every single one. No exceptions. Hell, I MADE the thread and every time I see it I picture a scene from the end of a West Wing episode where the characters are all solemnly gathered over the bedside of their compatriot, who has been shot, and as he recovers he whispers two words- "...What's next...?" ...Okay, it made sense in-context. Really? I suppose with all these fine minds no one ever thought to create artificial companionship (a la the Vision) with the capacity to transfer their minds in case of a rampage ( a la Machinesmith) so that his exile wouldn't be a living hell? And have Strange instantly transport him to said planet so that no space distrubances could occur? And can I point out Reed Richards has a fairly lousy record when it comes to spaceships? Not to mention that any space flight has any number of factors and variable risks? whereas Strange's virtually instaneous transportation has almost none. How come I think of these things and the world's finest minds don't? These are the men whom have taken on the onus of being judge and jury, but won't be executioner if necessary? And the death penalty is one thing, but justifiable murder is another. If the Hulk is a mass murderer who is liable to kill hundreds in the blink of an eye, with enough power that virtually no force on earth can contain him (unlike any regular human) he's an impossible situation to justify. His death is not only a likelihood, it's a necessity. And deciding to exile someone to a solitary existence for the better part of several hundred years sounds at least as bad as death and the fact that you can't endorse killing someone doesn't make it the less right choice, especially since it probably would be what Bruce Banner being a good and decent human being would want instead of the possibility of killing more people than Hitler's SS, right? And of course given his rampage why wasn't there a super hero resolution years ago? And if the Hulk retcon was such a given why were able to live without it for forty years or so? In fact, this retcon really undoes much of the MU for me. First, Civil War should've happened the day after Hulk's first wholesale slaughter. Second, Bruce Banner has lived with the fact that for the last several years his multiple personality disorder has been the cause of thousands of dead men, women and children in addition to millions left homeless and destitute and amazingly he hasn't just put a gun in his mouth or that the gov't hasn't had snipers waiting to put a bullet in his very human head every second of every day. Not to mention that he probably has a higher body count than any villain so heroes would be after him, every second of every day as he would be the greatest threat in their current universe. Of course that would also put Doc Strange in the unenviable position of having had as one of his best friends the most powerful mass murderer on earth... And the Avengers wanting him as a member again or letting him go a couple of times. Spider man did too. FF too. And they've saved his life a couple dozen times too, so they're all liable for his past crimes as well. There comes a point where you have to suspend disbelief one way ot another. My suspension allows for the however ridiculous idea that in order for the Hulk to be a super hero, he hasn't killed people and that the marvel universe hasn't been woefully negligent in stopping a mass murderer. I just find it less ridiculous than the alternative.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 7, 2007 14:41:21 GMT -5
Second, Bruce Banner has lived with the fact that for the last several years his multiple personality disorder has been the cause of thousands of dead men, women and children in addition to millions left homeless and destitute and amazingly he hasn't just put a gun in his mouth or that the gov't hasn't had snipers waiting to put a bullet in his very human head every second of every day. Not to mention that he probably has a higher body count than any villain so heroes would be after him, every second of every day as he would be the greatest threat in their current universe. […]There comes a point where you have to suspend disbelief one way ot another. My suspension allows for the however ridiculous idea that in order for the Hulk to be a super hero, he hasn't killed people and that the marvel universe hasn't been woefully negligent in stopping a mass murderer. I just find it less ridiculous than the alternative. For what it’s worth, Jennifer Walters outlines a similar thought process in She-Hulk vol. 2 #4 (2006):
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 7, 2007 15:08:26 GMT -5
That whole argument is undermined by the FACT that Doc Strange probed Bruce Banner and found out that if he could have killed himself, he would have long ago.
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Post by thew40 on Apr 7, 2007 16:34:51 GMT -5
That whole argument is undermined by the FACT that Doc Strange probed Bruce Banner and found out that if he could have killed himself, he would have long ago. That was Professor X. I like the idea of the Illuminati doing this, but at the same time, it would have been nice if they had talked to Banner about it first somehow. Maybe Professor X and Doctor Strange having a telepathic conversation with Banner (not the Hulk), then wiping it from his memory. Oh well. Right or wrong, Hulk's going to get his revenge. And I seriously doubt it'll be on Tigra. ~W~
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 7, 2007 17:09:49 GMT -5
That whole argument is undermined by the FACT that Doc Strange probed Bruce Banner and found out that if he could have killed himself, he would have long ago. Um, how? Bruce is a pretty smart guy. How could he kill himself? Pretty easily. here. I'm Banner and am smart enough to call Tony Stark and say "give me five million dollars and I guarantee the Hulk will cease to be a problem." Take said five million dollars, hire any of a hundred assassins in the MU and say "this is me. follow me, no matter where I go, wait until I'm sleeping and when I am you take a shot and put a bullet right through my brain. An explosive bullet. One that will leave no possibility of survival. If you do not do this exactly, there is an excellent chance that my metahuman ability will manifest and kill you." plus there have been numerous times where Bruce has been in control of the Hulk and could've said to the Avengers "please drop me in the heart of the sun, or a black hole with no oxygen." This treatment of the Hulk is a new development and clearly goes against so much history that it is weakened by virtually every existing story up until the Bruce Jones era where I stopped reading the title (as such I can't really say...). even banishing him to the crossroads only happened when Bruce was supposedly lost within Hulk and gone forever. The MU has always worked to save banner. I personally would enjoy this type of story if it took place in the Ultimate Universe. There it would make sense and not contradict so much established history
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Post by balok on Apr 7, 2007 18:47:46 GMT -5
Doctor Strange could also have checked in on him once in a while to make sure he was doing okay. The Orb of Agamotto makes such a scan childishly easy. Doom, if you're suggesting your namesake rivals Reed Richards in scientific ability - yes, that's true. If you're suggesting he rivals Doctor Strange in sorcery, that is assuredly not true. That issue would be a "what happens following page 2?" special... Note that I'm not saying Doc Doom couldn't take Doc Strange if he planned properly and used all his resources - but spell to spell he stands no chance against the Sorcerer Supreme of the entire planet. He'd last longer than Brother Voodoo, though, for whatever that's worth...
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Post by thew40 on Apr 7, 2007 18:52:04 GMT -5
Note that I'm not saying Doc Doom couldn't take Doc Strange if he planned properly and used all his resources Which he did in "Unthinkable." ~W~
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 7, 2007 22:36:22 GMT -5
I agree with you, imperiusrex: clearly yet another stab from the current Marvel administration & creators at altering, nay, erasing, retroactively changing the past... I hardly think it'll be the last one...
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 8, 2007 1:49:49 GMT -5
The fact that Hulk hadn't killed anyone was always a testament to the innate goodness inside of him (i.e. Banner). To take that away is to really negate a huge part of his appeal, IMHO. It certainly makes it hard to see him as a hero, even an anti-hero.
Even if we accept this premise, that Hulk's actions have caused the deaths of innocent people, it disturbs me that Reed Richards, the man who argued to save Galactus' life, wouldn't find some other way to help Banner/Hulk.
I forget who said it, but Reed is the guy who if faced with two equally awful choices, will find that third option instead. It just seems like what he and the Illuminati have done is purely for the sake of expediency. Although in reality, it is just another case of a writer "dumbing down" characters to reach a plot point.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 8, 2007 4:46:04 GMT -5
You are aware, Balok, that Doctor Doom is the number two sorceror on Earth? It's long established canon that when Strange is gone, Doom is the next Sorceror SUpreme, as he is currently "first in line" after Strange.
PS: And as the w says, when he made a deal with several helldemons he briefly became the STRONGEST sorceror on Earth.
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 8, 2007 11:51:54 GMT -5
I agree with you, imperiusrex: clearly yet another stab from the current Marvel administration & creators at altering, nay, erasing, retroactively changing the past... I hardly think it'll be the last one... My problem is isn't this EXACTLY why they created the Ultimate Universe? To be free from 50 years of established story constraints? There are plenty of good stories to be told within the realms of what has transpired before without having to retcon virtually every appearance of the Hulk. This is like having your cake and eating it too, and then going back for pie...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 8, 2007 12:29:13 GMT -5
This is like having your cake and eating it too, and then going back for pie... mmmmmmmmmm, pie.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 8, 2007 13:01:58 GMT -5
That whole argument is undermined by the FACT that Doc Strange probed Bruce Banner and found out that if he could have killed himself, he would have long ago. That was Professor X. I’m guessing you guys are pulling this FACT from the New Avengers: Illuminati one-shot. (In it, Strange delivers the line, answering Iron Man’s rhetorical question as to what was learned when Xavier met with Banner.) Even taken at face value as unassailable, it doesn’t necessarily contradict the notion that Banner would kill himself if he had reason to believe the Hulk had taken innocent life. Maybe, if he had reason to believe thus, the proscription Xavier reported would break down.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 8, 2007 13:09:06 GMT -5
You are aware, Balok, that Doctor Doom is the number two sorceror on Earth? It's long established canon that when Strange is gone, Doom is the next Sorceror SUpreme, as he is currently "first in line" after Strange. Refresh our memory: where is this established? (I recall Doom [the Marvel character] being essentially runner-up in a contest which affirmed Strange as Sorcerer Supreme, in the graphic novel Dr. Strange and Dr. Doom: Triumph and Torment, but I don’t recall it being established that Doom was necessarily “first in line” to succeed Strange—though obviously his performance there paints him as a serious contender, as does his renewed dedication to sorcery in “Unthinkable”, should he stick with it. But perhaps Doom [the Avengers Assemble! “character”] had some other evidence in mind.)
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 8, 2007 13:33:46 GMT -5
No Phantom, I apologize - you cited my evidence. Perhaps I have made a leap in logic but the fact that the Doc was SECOND to Strange in the "competition" to be Sorceror Supreme seemed a logical reason to me that he would be the most likely choice to replace Strange. You are, of course as always, free to disagree.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 8, 2007 15:50:47 GMT -5
No Phantom, I apologize - you cited my evidence. Perhaps I have made a leap in logic but the fact that the Doc was SECOND to Strange in the "competition" to be Sorceror Supreme seemed a logical reason to me that he would be the most likely choice to replace Strange. You are, of course as always, free to disagree. Well, the contest didn’t establish an automatic path of succession. It just picked a Sorcerer Supreme and determined whom the Sorcerer Supreme would owe a boon. Of the contest participants, Doom was clearly a close second to Strange; but the participants were not necessarily all the best sorcerers—Mordo wasn’t there, for instance (he might have been dead at the time…). And of course, things may have changed since then. I think it’s clear that Doom is way up there; he might be #2 and he might accede to the position if and when it becomes open, but I don’t think these are firm facts.
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