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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 3, 2008 18:25:28 GMT -5
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 10, 2008 16:09:52 GMT -5
Again, can't speak for anyone else- and this is a guy who DISLIKES Dan Slott and loved JMS's Spidey, but this is the best Spidey issue I've read in years. Like I said before- Spider-Man is back.
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 10, 2008 16:35:39 GMT -5
I will have to disagree with doom. This may be the 80's spidey back, but we don't live in the 80's. Two months ago Spidey was married, his id was public, his aunt was shot, and now poof, thanks to the unexplainable magic we have adult Ultimate Spider-man in the 616.
Enjoy the train wreck, I am exiting stage left.
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 10, 2008 17:02:20 GMT -5
Well, I could say that this issue was the best Spider story I've read so far in 2008 ;D Jokes aside, ignoring all the OMD stuff and considering the issue on its own (which is quite difficult), it was rather good. The problem is that it feels, like, "wrong", because to produce a good issue they had to throw away 20 years of continuity and all that came with it. Also I'm not sure when we are now, has Peter already had his relationship with the Black Cat for example? I would have enjoyed it more as a new "untold tales of sm" series.  Still, I'll stay on board, from now at least. |
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Post by woodside on Jan 10, 2008 17:14:07 GMT -5
I will have to disagree with doom. This may be the 80's spidey back, but we don't live in the 80's. Two months ago Spidey was married, his id was public, his aunt was shot, and now poof, thanks to the unexplainable magic we have adult Ultimate Spider-man in the 616. Enjoy the train wreck, I am exiting stage left. Ditto. But hey, Doom, if you like, like it then. There's no crime in it. But after OMD, this all just feels like a slap in the face. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 10, 2008 17:39:10 GMT -5
I still can't say I see how they "ignored 20 years of stories!" They still happened, just Mj and Peter weren't married. It doesn't radically change them at all- none of the ones I can think of. I've accepted much, MUCH harder things. (May being replaced by an actress, anyone?)
Marvel are in a no-win situation. If they printed a comprehensive list of how continuity was edited, people would say it was too late and damage control. If they don't... then people will say they should.
To be fair, I wasn't reading in the 80s so hey, maybe that's why I love this so much.
Well, Ultimate Spider-Man but older, with a completely different supporting cast, different relationships to them, different villains, different relationships to them, personality, and, well, really basically everything except a name, costumed identity and a few basics like web-shooters.
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 10, 2008 17:47:09 GMT -5
Well, the change doesn't stop to the wedding... Harry's death didn't have anything to do with it, nor did the organic webs and so on. The problem is that the wedding was heavily involved in a number of plots over the years, for example now Ben Relly never came to be (or died), or did he but Peter didn't move out of NY with his pregnant wife?  I think that until things are clarified a bit, it's better to take BND as a parallel universe other than earth 616, like with the Morgana world in Avengers V3 2-3  |
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 10, 2008 22:27:17 GMT -5
I still can't say I see how they "ignored 20 years of stories!" They still happened, just Mj and Peter weren't married. It doesn't radically change them at all- none of the ones I can think of. I'm at just as much of a loss as to how you can't see how the effects would ripple. Have you seen "The Butterfly Effect?" That movie shows a perfect example of how one changed thing can affect the entire future, and a marriage is no small thing. I was married with 2 stepkids for 8 years and then got a divorce. Now, if I hadn't done that, I still might have ended up in the same career I currently have and with a very similar life or things might have turned out very differently (For better or worse). There's no way to know. I can guarantee this, however. Even if I did end up being single, living in the same place, and with the same job, the details of how I got here would have been vastly different. That's what we've been reading for the past 21 years - the details of Peter Parker's life. There's no way you can convince me, or probably anyone else on this board, that nothing important was radically changed. I don't think you even believe that yourself - you just like to take the opposite side of an argument but during the time we've all spent on these boards, I've come to expect better reasoning from you. |
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 11, 2008 9:00:35 GMT -5
I still can't say I see how they "ignored 20 years of stories!" They still happened, just Mj and Peter weren't married. It doesn't radically change them at all- none of the ones I can think of. I've accepted much, MUCH harder things. (May being replaced by an actress, anyone?) Marvel are in a no-win situation. If they printed a comprehensive list of how continuity was edited, people would say it was too late and damage control. If they don't... then people will say they should. To be fair, I wasn't reading in the 80s so hey, maybe that's why I love this so much. Well, Ultimate Spider-Man but older, with a completely different supporting cast, different relationships to them, different villains, different relationships to them, personality, and, well, really basically everything except a name, costumed identity and a few basics like web-shooters. Marvel placed themselves into a no-win seniro, they have nobody to blame but themselves for this. I guess you would like the idea of rehashed stories, if you had not read the first ones. That is a good point. Hmm, I have fliped through USM, and they look like the same old villians, the same old crap, just with a teenage peter. So now we are going to get the same rehash with an adult ultimate spidey. Like it all you want doom, I really don't care, I just find your grasping at straws to convince others how great this train wreck is kinda amusing. |
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 11, 2008 9:36:19 GMT -5
Somehow I had missed this when reading the book. www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Spider-Man/BND/StatusQuo.htmlCheck on the far right: "Absolutely no one knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man: not Daredevil, not the Avengers, not anyone. Although some people seem to recall that Spidey unmasked himself during Civil War, no one quite remembers whose face was under the mask" I'm more than a bit sorry about Daredevil not knowing, they revealed this secret to each other years ago and it was the center of some very nice crossovers. The CW thing is interesting though, sounds like the events still took place as we know, but no one can recall the face under the mask (and i suppose it's been erased from cameras, newspapers, videos etc) |
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Post by goldenfist on Jan 11, 2008 9:43:26 GMT -5
The story of OMD made it in the USA TODAY paper I read it on
yahoo last night.
I was told from other fans that the OMD story does not effect his
status on the New Avengers he's still part of the team.
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 11, 2008 9:48:07 GMT -5
Except that now they don't know who he is, unless Strange can detect Mephisto's hand at work.
Wolverine will be happy to know that they messed up with his head *again* ;D
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 11, 2008 13:04:43 GMT -5
I'm at just as much of a loss as to how you can't see how the effects would ripple. Have you seen "The Butterfly Effect?" That movie shows a perfect example of how one changed thing can affect the entire future, and a marriage is no small thing. I was married with 2 stepkids for 8 years and then got a divorce. Now, if I hadn't done that, I still might have ended up in the same career I currently have and with a very similar life or things might have turned out very differently (For better or worse). There's no way to know. I can guarantee this, however. Even if I did end up being single, living in the same place, and with the same job, the details of how I got here would have been vastly different. That's what we've been reading for the past 21 years - the details of Peter Parker's life. There's no way you can convince me, or probably anyone else on this board, that nothing important was radically changed. I don't think you even believe that yourself - you just like to take the opposite side of an argument but during the time we've all spent on these boards, I've come to expect better reasoning from you. Oh no, Spiderwasp, I can of course defend my rationale. I can offer you one piece of indefatigable evidence that nothing else was changed except that they weren't a couple. There is one thing that contradicts my proof, and that is Harry Osborn- but that's deliberate, and a mystery Marvel are already going to explore. Allow me to quote one line from the book which provides definitive proof that the "butterlfy effect" does not occur normally in this case: "Your marriage is but a stitch in time that I will simply, painlessly remove. All else will remain the same." And there it is. All else will remain the same. Mephisto has altered reality so that they were never married but all events until that time happened just the same way... just that they weren't marriage. The ONLY exception is that he says "COnsider his identity forgotten"- IE: No one can recall who Peter is. Other than that? It's right there in black and white (Well, red and white). All else will remain the same. As I said, Harry is the wild card here, but I'll wager it's related to MJ's whisper which was also outside the terms of their deal. So even if you disagree with it... I do have some pretty sound logic behind my conviction. ...You've flipped through it, I've read 60 or so issues, yeah, I'm sure we both have roughly equal amounts of knowledge on it to make us BOTH equally qualified to judge, right? Err... grasping at straws to convince others how great it is? I liked the story. I find it great. I haven't tried to convince anyone, I've just argued back when someone said something I believe to be wrong (Like the butterfly effect thing.) I haven't listed what I felt went right with this issue, I haven't listed reasons to buy it. If you want THOSE, you can read my review at Independent Comics Site, but I certainly didn't give them here. |
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 11, 2008 13:53:13 GMT -5
I'm at just as much of a loss as to how you can't see how the effects would ripple. Have you seen "The Butterfly Effect?" That movie shows a perfect example of how one changed thing can affect the entire future, and a marriage is no small thing. I was married with 2 stepkids for 8 years and then got a divorce. Now, if I hadn't done that, I still might have ended up in the same career I currently have and with a very similar life or things might have turned out very differently (For better or worse). There's no way to know. I can guarantee this, however. Even if I did end up being single, living in the same place, and with the same job, the details of how I got here would have been vastly different. That's what we've been reading for the past 21 years - the details of Peter Parker's life. There's no way you can convince me, or probably anyone else on this board, that nothing important was radically changed. I don't think you even believe that yourself - you just like to take the opposite side of an argument but during the time we've all spent on these boards, I've come to expect better reasoning from you. Oh no, Spiderwasp, I can of course defend my rationale. I can offer you one piece of indefatigable evidence that nothing else was changed except that they weren't a couple. There is one thing that contradicts my proof, and that is Harry Osborn- but that's deliberate, and a mystery Marvel are already going to explore. Allow me to quote one line from the book which provides definitive proof that the "butterlfy effect" does not occur normally in this case: "Your marriage is but a stitch in time that I will simply, painlessly remove. All else will remain the same." And there it is. All else will remain the same. Mephisto has altered reality so that they were never married but all events until that time happened just the same way... just that they weren't marriage. The ONLY exception is that he says "COnsider his identity forgotten"- IE: No one can recall who Peter is. Other than that? It's right there in black and white (Well, red and white). All else will remain the same. As I said, Harry is the wild card here, but I'll wager it's related to MJ's whisper which was also outside the terms of their deal. So even if you disagree with it... I do have some pretty sound logic behind my conviction. ...You've flipped through it, I've read 60 or so issues, yeah, I'm sure we both have roughly equal amounts of knowledge on it to make us BOTH equally qualified to judge, right? Err... grasping at straws to convince others how great it is? I liked the story. I find it great. I haven't tried to convince anyone, I've just argued back when someone said something I believe to be wrong (Like the butterfly effect thing.) I haven't listed what I felt went right with this issue, I haven't listed reasons to buy it. If you want THOSE, you can read my review at Independent Comics Site, but I certainly didn't give them here. Well according to you, we should have about the same knowledge, since you have told me I was not knowledgable about things in marvel, even though I have been reading Marvel comics since the late seventies. I know, you never said that right. LOL Oh yea, and he now has webshooters instead of organic webs. And oh yea Aunt may is not shoot anymore, and oh yea nobody knows his identity. Yep nothing has been changed. LOL What a joke. Keep buying what Joe Q is spinning. and then trying to explain the plot holes you can drive mack trucks through. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 11, 2008 14:27:09 GMT -5
Let me ask you again- and you haven't replied ANY of the previous times I asked you this, so feel free to this time.
Cite one time- ONE time, with a link, where I said you weren't knowledgable about something and it ws NOT because you weren't reading a book or something similar. Just one. Come on, it can't be that hard if I've said this lots, right?
The deal was as follows: "I save aunt May, you are no longer married. EVERYTHING else except what we're talking about specifically stays the same, just that you are not married and never were." Then, due to Mary-Jane, he tacked on, "Oh, and everyone forgets who you were." What is so hard to understand about that? As for organic webshooters- read One More Day part one, Peter says he empties everything he has in him, all the webbing. Of course, we see him swinging again after that so either he was lying, or he grabbed a metal webshooter. A minor plot hole, sure, but it is indeed a plot hole.
Again, it's VERY, VERY, VERY clearly set out in the issue, the EXACT changes- except organic webs, you'd be right, and Harry which is clearly deliberate. No longer married. Aunt May saved. Identity forgotten. All else is the same.
You have yet to point out any of these huge plot holes, but don't worry, I'm sure you'll just claim you did and then ignore me when I ask for an example.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 11, 2008 16:26:30 GMT -5
I guess since Peter and Mary Jane still had the daughter that was stolen (Only the marriage changed, nothing else.) they must have had her out of wedlock. Deals with the devil and now children without a ring - If I had kids I'm not sure I'd point them toward Spidey anymore as a role model.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 11, 2008 17:09:43 GMT -5
Nope.
Because again, it's a specific cited by Mephisto. He brings up the child, who is clearly their baby girl, May, and says she will *never be* now that they have decided to get married. You can read into it in your own way, but mine is simple; BECAUSE he wiped out the marriage, he wiped out marriage-SPECIFIC things. As in, yes, veerything basically remains the same, but they're clearly not going to have a honeymoon for example. And thus, logically, the child is wiped out as well.
That one is less clear than the others, I grant you, but it IS still spelled out in the issue.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 12, 2008 11:41:03 GMT -5
I am so glad I'm not reading these comics, or much Marvel at all anymore...
I am sad about where this has all gone.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 12, 2008 15:44:45 GMT -5
Back to the time period you guys have been saying Marvel should return to for AGGGGEEEESSSS?
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that in. But yeah, I honestly think if Marvel did the same thing to the Avengers (Bringing back the old, original Avengers etc), SOME of you would still complain bitterly. I say some, because it's not fair to apply that to all of you and I've done that a bit lately.
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 18, 2008 11:26:12 GMT -5
Just for doom,
You told me I lacked knowledge when I compared this to crisis. Thanks for playing on that.
Plot holes like harry being alive, Plot holes created by somehow people not knowing his id now.
Sorry this is a big stinker...
As for bringing back that time period, well that would be great if they did it in a way that was not ignorant.
Go read Erik Larsons column on CBR, he actually calls this stupid. Oh well, I know your opiniong is always the correct one. Later
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 18, 2008 11:47:25 GMT -5
Just for doom, You told me I lacked knowledge when I compared this to crisis. Thanks for playing on that. No. I did not. My language is EXTREMELY clear and even a cursory knowledge of the English language would show that. Since I'm assuming you have that, I can only assume you are either deliberately misreading my words or else ignoring them. I very, very clearly stated that EITHER you lacked knowledge OR we had different views on things. This is not an opinion, it is an absolute fact. But go ahead, you can either try to explain how the english language does not in fact mean what it does, or else you can pick another "Example?" (My personal bet is that you will simply claim my fact is wrong without any actual evidence, it does seem to be a hobby of yours. Alternatively, you could pick an opinion of mine, say it's wrong, and then claim I'm the one who believes myself to be always right, another gem.) Harry being alive is a hole which they are going to fill, clearly. As in, not a hole. As in, a deliberate ambiguity. That's like saying it's a "plot hole" that we don't know how the characters got where they are at the start of Heroes season 2 because they don't explain it until episode 7 or so. You have yet to name any actual holes caused by people not knowing his ID, so go on- elaborate. Oh, and the "somehow" has an extremely clear explanation. Ignorant? Of what? Of who? You think, perchance, they did not know what they were doing? ....Lol. I find it rather hilarious how you can simultaneously accuse ME of arrogance and in the same sentence state that Erik Larson has an opinion ergo it must be a fact. |
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 18, 2008 12:28:57 GMT -5
Thank you for once again misinterpeting so much, you are so good at that doom.
I was saying that you would feel your opinion is correct and everyone is wrong, not Erik larson. LOL Oh well...
Ignorant as in stupid, not as in lacking knowledge.
You believe what you want. Truly this would be the time for the ignore feature, so I dont' have to read you arrogant posts. Oh well, thanks for showing you lack of understanding of anything but your own ideas.
Bye
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 18, 2008 12:54:34 GMT -5
But go ahead, you can either try to explain how the english language does not in fact mean what it does, or else you can pick another "Example?" (My personal bet is that you will simply claim my fact is wrong without any actual evidence, it does seem to be a hobby of yours. Alternatively, you could pick an opinion of mine, say it's wrong, and then claim I'm the one who believes myself to be always right, another gem.) Damnation. Guess I lose my bet, you actually went for the option of "totally ignore what I say and make general, sweeping statement to assert that you think you're still right without actually responding to a single one of the arguments put forth". Ah well, there's always next time someone decides to insult me, lie about what I said, and then maintain an air of incredible arrogance while accusing me of the same while never actually responding to any arguments put forth! I'll be comforted in the knowledge that despite having repeated the claim a minimum of 3 times, you were STILL never even able to cite a single example of my claiming you were stupid/ not knowledgable about Marvel things. |
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 18, 2008 18:59:16 GMT -5
Easy guys, the conversation has been pretty civil so far, let's keep it this way or I'll have to lock the topic |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 19, 2008 8:26:11 GMT -5
You're right, shiryu. I apologize for my misconduct, which was beneath me.
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Post by goldenfist on Jun 23, 2008 22:15:00 GMT -5
I know not everyone is reading Brand New Day but that's the way
it goes when you have Joe Q as the Editor in Chief at Marvel.
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