|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 23, 2007 12:37:38 GMT -5
www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/003563069.cfmNew interview with Bendis about Mighty Avengers. Speaking personally, he allays a lot of my fears and for the first time I think I'm actually looking forward to Mighty Avengers. i NEARLY was- I was so nearly there- and then came female Ultron, but now I am once more. Though worried about Doom. Specifically, worried about comments on Doom's love life and what happens to him at the end of the arc... We've barely had Doom back, I don't want him gone again! Anyway, though most of you will passionately despise every word he says I still think it's worth a look!
|
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Feb 23, 2007 13:17:39 GMT -5
Anyway, though most of you will passionately despise every word he says I still think it's worth a look! I wouldn't say every word, but there were too many to comment on today...  One thing I will say is that I just can't take him seriously when he talks about all of the stories that I treasure -- he treasures. Then show me!! |
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 23, 2007 13:19:29 GMT -5
Well if nothing else, DLW.... At least we get Beast  I think Beast makes up for half of what Bendis has done wrong myself, but that may be because I ADORE the Beast/Simon dynamic. |
|
|
|
Post by balok on Feb 23, 2007 13:25:17 GMT -5
Nothing he says makes me want to buy the book. Several things he says make me want to avoid it. Still a hater, I guess.
His answer to the first question seems to suggest the book will be short on action, long on those conversational stories where characters chat at each other and nothing ever happens. Which I didn't like about New Avengers, and so probably won't like here.
What is his fascination with ninjas? Hey, Bendis, the 80's called - they want their comic book ideas back.
I'm glad you're looking forward to the book, but in my opinion your critical bar is set rather low, so when you say something like that, it isn't a ringing endorsement.
|
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Feb 23, 2007 13:32:25 GMT -5
The comments about the Beast might have been the high point of the interview. Not looking forward to Ares. As I stated elsewhere, he has too much of a history as a baddie for me to see him in the mix. But, I didn't care for Magneto on the side of good, either.
|
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Feb 23, 2007 16:19:11 GMT -5
Anyway, though most of you will passionately despise every word he says I still think it's worth a look! Thanks. That's the way to show us that prejudging is wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by Tana Nile on Feb 23, 2007 16:36:36 GMT -5
The comments about the Beast might have been the high point of the interview. Not looking forward to Ares. As I stated elsewhere, he has too much of a history as a baddie for me to see him in the mix. But, I didn't care for Magneto on the side of good, either. Hey DLW, I know, I have been wondering what possible motivation Ares could have for joining the team, and why they would have him. Then again, we're talking about 'heroes' who think forcing people to serve the government is a good thing. I feel like I don't know these characters at all any more. |
|
|
|
Post by balok on Feb 23, 2007 19:42:17 GMT -5
The comments about the Beast might have been the high point of the interview. Since I won't be buying this book, I won't have an opportunity to see how Bendis plans to abuse yet another of my favorite characters. But thinking about it is bad enough. Not looking forward to Ares. As I stated elsewhere, he has too much of a history as a baddie for me to see him in the mix. But, I didn't care for Magneto on the side of good, either. Read Thunderbolts: in the emerging age of Marvel, villains are the new heroes!  |
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 23, 2007 20:03:10 GMT -5
Of course Balok, if you think for a single second that the Thunderbolts are MEANT to be the heroes of Thunderbolts right now you clearly have no ability whatsoever to read between the lines.
|
|
|
|
Post by balok on Feb 24, 2007 0:42:40 GMT -5
Of course Balok, if you think for a single second that the Thunderbolts are MEANT to be the heroes of Thunderbolts right now you clearly have no ability whatsoever to read between the lines. They're villains, operating with official government sanction. What's your point? |
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Feb 24, 2007 1:36:31 GMT -5
OK, I read the interview. My thoughts on his statements:
First, in all honesty I probably would not be nearly so angry, had the second Avengers title gone to someone else. Let Bendis and his fans have NA. That's fine, no problem. But give us something. I consider Bendis getting MA as well a personal slap in the face from Marvel. Bendis' fans want to complain about the lack of positivity here -- well, the reason is staring you in the face. Marvel had the opportunity to give the dissatisfied fans something to be positive about, and instead we got the middle finger.
Second, I take major exception to Bendis' contention that "now people care about the characters, and that was his intention." I value character development very highly -- far more so than I do pointless action. And as much as a lack of action is a criticism of Bendis' NA, the total lack of character development is a far more egregious failure. Think about it -- two and a half years of stories, and what have we learned about these characters and their relationships with each other? Almost NOTHING. OK, Spider-Woman has a great rack. There has been absolutely nothing to make me care about the characters on this roster.
Third, I also take exception with his contention that the "classic" fans are not being marginalized. Perhaps it's finally dawned on him that he at least needs to control his tendency to verbally belittle fans -- but that's as far as it goes. We already know his viewpoint. His statements are also conflicting -- he states that he understands that a certain faction do feel marginalized and that at least some of their criticisms are valid, and he says that he doesn't want to drive those people away. Then he says that he expects MA to be even less appealing than NA to the "classic" fan. OK -- can someone reconcile these positions? Logically, the "classic" fan will be even more alienated by Mighty if it's what he says it is.
If I took anything away from the interview, it's that Bendis is even more determined to do things his way. Before, I had at least considered that he might throw a bone to the "classic" fans and make an attempt at least to appeal to them. But not now.
RSC
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 24, 2007 2:08:09 GMT -5
Oookay... So, unless Bendis' trying to feed us misinformation, the mother of Ares' child is either Ms. Marvel, the Black Widow or the Wasp...  |
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 24, 2007 7:23:20 GMT -5
It'#s not meant to be a slap. It's Marvel doing what Marvel do; making a move that will earn them money. I wish it wasn't Bendis as well but taking it as a personal slap is ridiculous.
In your opinion. I agree, but THOUSANDS don't, so let's not accept your word as the Truth of God, okay?
It's incredibly easy to reconcile them. He said they have valid points, I'd assume he means with his writing style rather than how close or far from "classic" it is.
|
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Feb 24, 2007 12:38:45 GMT -5
It'#s not meant to be a slap. It's Marvel doing what Marvel do; making a move that will earn them money. I wish it wasn't Bendis as well but taking it as a personal slap is ridiculous. In your opinion, as you are so fond of saying. Marvel has decided on one particular direction under Bendis that they believe will make them money, to the exclusion of other directions and other voices. Avengers was a top-selling title under Busiek/Perez. Therefore there is money to be made and a fanbase to satisfy with "classic" stories. Saying otherwise is simply false. Again with the borderline personal insults. Obviously, almost everything said in here is personal opinion. I happen to believe I'm right and moreover I can actually back it up with concrete arguments, unlike the other side. As usual, you gloss over the real issue while claiming it solved. Let's repeat. Bendis contends that they don't want to drive the "classic" fans off. Bendis then states that (in his opinion) MA will be even less likely to appeal to the "classic" fans. Are these statements logically consistent? One would think that if Bendis and Marvel were truly serious about wanting to keep the "classic" fans around, then it would reasonably follow that they would give those fans something they could enjoy. Instead, he is coming right out and saying that they probably will not enjoy MA. Therefore it seems to me that they are doing something they already admit will drive away the "classic" fans (NA and now MA), while simultaneously saying that they don't want to drive away the classic fans. RSC |
|
|
|
Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 24, 2007 13:07:35 GMT -5
Bendis contends that they don't want to drive the "classic" fans off. Bendis then states that (in his opinion) MA will be even less likely to appeal to the "classic" fans. Are these statements logically consistent? One would think that if Bendis and Marvel were truly serious about wanting to keep the "classic" fans around, then it would reasonably follow that they would give those fans something they could enjoy. Instead, he is coming right out and saying that they probably will not enjoy MA. Therefore it seems to me that they are doing something they already admit will drive away the "classic" fans (NA and now MA), while simultaneously saying that they don't want to drive away the classic fans. Yes, those statements can be logically consistent. Where your chain of logic breaks is that you are equating “not wanting to drive ‘classic’ fans off” with “wanting to keep ‘classic’ fans”. There is a middle ground of not having either goal, i.e., of considering the “classic”-fans question negligible (if indeed considering it at all). That may be the case here; if so, then driving away “classic” fans would merely be a side effect. Also, it’s possible to have a goal but to lack the means (or to be unaware of the means) of achieving it. Probably there are multiple goals, which might compete against each other. |
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Feb 24, 2007 13:54:00 GMT -5
Yes, those statements can be logically consistent. Where your chain of logic breaks is that you are equating “not wanting to drive ‘classic’ fans off” with “wanting to keep ‘classic’ fans”. There is a middle ground of not having either goal, i.e., of considering the “classic”-fans question negligible (if indeed considering it at all). That may be the case here; if so, then driving away “classic” fans would merely be a side effect. Also, it’s possible to have a goal but to lack the means (or to be unaware of the means) of achieving it. Probably there are multiple goals, which might compete against each other. First, the fact that Bendis is discussing it is prima facia evidence that Marvel does consider the question of reaching the "classic" fans. Now, what they really think behind closed doors may be (and probably is) different from what they are saying publically. But, for the purposes of Bendis' interview, it has to be taken at face value that they do consider the issue of keeping the "classic" fans. Otherwise you would have to argue that Bendis is, well, lying. Either way there is a problem here, as Bendis is either: a)lying when he says he is concerned about keeping the "classic" fans, or b)being inconsistent when saying he wants to keep the "classic" fans, while doing something he acknowledges will probably alienate the "classic" fans. Second, having a goal but lacking the means to achieve it is also a questionable argument here. Marvel has to know at least one very simple means of achieving the goal of appealing to "classic" fans, that being an Avengers title written by someone other than Bendis. The quesion then becomes the willingness to take the course of action that they should already know will appeal to "classic" fans. RSC |
|
|
|
Post by balok on Feb 24, 2007 17:12:03 GMT -5
Bendis probably does want to keep the "classic" fans. After all, when Coke invented New Coke, they wanted to keep both existing customers, and gain new customers [1]. Every fan is $3 a month, $36 a year - add a few of them up and you're talking real money. But what I think is that he wants to keep those fans on his terms. That is, he expects the classic fan to "broaden his perspective" or "change his expectations" or "keep and open mind" and adapt to the kind of stories Bendis wants to tell. Like many creators, he probably thinks he's doing excellent work - and the sales figures can only reinforce that view. Down in his id, he probably regards his detractors as a**hats because they don't see things the way he does.
[1] They had other goals as well, but these are not relevant here.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 24, 2007 17:35:14 GMT -5
Can I throw in the opinion that the fact that he wants to KEEP old-time fans on New Avengers doesn't mean that when he does something else, it has to be to cater MORE to old time fans? If he feels classic fans should be amply sated by New Avengers, what's wrong with him trying to appeal to those who aren't yet avengers fans?
|
|
|
|
Post by balok on Feb 24, 2007 20:41:28 GMT -5
Can I throw in the opinion that the fact that he wants to KEEP old-time fans on New Avengers doesn't mean that when he does something else, it has to be to cater MORE to old time fans? If he feels classic fans should be amply sated by New Avengers, what's wrong with him trying to appeal to those who aren't yet avengers fans? He may feel that classic fans should be amply sated by New Avengers, but that remains his opinion, and it is not borne out by the reactions of classic fans. It still works for him, at least for now, because obviously a lot of people DO like what he's doing. Proving only that there's no accounting for taste. The faint ray of hope is that he has tapped into the video game generation - they have short attention spans and will soon move on to the next kewl thing, and when that happens his sales should plummet. And perhaps then, we classic fans will return...  |
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Feb 24, 2007 23:57:45 GMT -5
He may feel that classic fans should be amply sated by New Avengers, but that remains his opinion, and it is not borne out by the reactions of classic fans. It still works for him, at least for now, because obviously a lot of people DO like what he's doing. Proving only that there's no accounting for taste. The faint ray of hope is that he has tapped into the video game generation - they have short attention spans and will soon move on to the next kewl thing, and when that happens his sales should plummet. And perhaps then, we classic fans will return... I think you hit the nail on the head, Balok. What Bendis' statements -- translated -- mean is that he wants the "classic" fans to drop their objections and buy his book as is, without him changing anything. Obviously, the "classic" fans are not sated and never will be sated by Bendis' style of writing the Avengers. Over two years of watching this debate, I believe that opinions against him have hardened considerably. Not that he doesn't still have his fans, because he does. However, the "classic" fans that gave him the benefit of the doubt for a time have deserted the title for the long term. I bought NA though issue #15 thinking that Bendis eventually might get things together, but I finally decided that nothing was going to change. RSC |
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 25, 2007 0:23:21 GMT -5
But the whole discussion might very well be a moot point if most of those Avengers classisists are also diehard completists who'll buy the book no matter how unsated or unsatisfied they might be by Bendis' style.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 25, 2007 7:56:19 GMT -5
Plus that for every classic Avengers fan who hates New Avengers, I'd bet there's two classic Avengers fans who love it.
|
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Feb 25, 2007 11:08:42 GMT -5
Plus that for every classic Avengers fan who hates New Avengers, I'd bet there's two classic Avengers fans who love it. lol! What are you smoking, and where can I get some? RSC |
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 25, 2007 11:56:03 GMT -5
It's a bitter fact RSC, and I don't like it any more than you do but there you go.
|
|
|
|
Post by balok on Feb 25, 2007 13:02:34 GMT -5
Plus that for every classic Avengers fan who hates New Avengers, I'd bet there's two classic Avengers fans who love it. You can bet that way all you like - it's your money. But are you basing that assertion on anything more than wishful thinking? And if you are, what? |
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 25, 2007 13:11:09 GMT -5
Wishful thinking!? I'm a classic Avengers fan who does NOT particularly like New Avengers- even if I rate it much higher than much of the rubbish we used to put up with like the Austen run. But besides sales, I suggest you check out the CBR avengers forum and you'll find PLENTY of oldschool Avengers fans who like New avengers.
|
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Feb 25, 2007 15:24:39 GMT -5
Plus that for every classic Avengers fan who hates New Avengers, I'd bet there's two classic Avengers fans who love it. It's a bitter fact RSC, and I don't like it any more than you do but there you go. Wow! I wish I could get my random bets to turn into facts like that. I'd move to Vegas so I could bet on things all the time. |
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 25, 2007 15:30:58 GMT -5
Spiderwasp, might I entreat you to repost that last bit over at the Civil War thread rather than hijack this thread from our friends' conversation? Oh, and VERY nice play reversing my backing out thingg to Balok. I'll retaliate fully back at the thread, but very sly move and I congratulate you and karma you for intelligence and making me chuckle  |
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Feb 25, 2007 18:55:19 GMT -5
Spiderwasp, might I entreat you to repost that last bit over at the Civil War thread rather than hijack this thread from our friends' conversation? done |
|
daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
|
Post by daned on Feb 28, 2007 6:03:25 GMT -5
"I’ve never seen another writer take a full issue to write to another writer: “You a--hole!” "
Yeah? Let me at the book.
|
|
I think Beast makes up for half of what Bendis has done wrong myself, but that may be because I ADORE the Beast/Simon dynamic.
