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Post by uberwolf on Apr 29, 2007 23:13:36 GMT -5
So I gave in and I'm reading Civil War. 'bout half way through it. All I have to say so far is I hope when the Hulk gets back to Earth he tears off Stark's iron shorts and gives him a gamma irradiated enema. Now I see why everyone's ticked at the Iron Bastard.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 30, 2007 1:55:18 GMT -5
I'm going to assume you read tie-ins then.
Because most people I know who only read the main series had no idea what the anti-Stark fuss was about.
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Post by uberwolf on Apr 30, 2007 7:42:19 GMT -5
Yeah, got all the tie ins. This is a lot of reading, heh.
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Post by balok on Apr 30, 2007 18:17:35 GMT -5
Welcome to the "haters" club. We "haters" feel that characterization was violated in this series to the point where the major players were close to unrecognizable, and that a great deal of what went on violates fundamental civil rights. We asked if Millar read any of these characters past their last year or so of appearance, and if he really understood America, and concluded that the answer was "no" to both. Our rhetorical opponents contend that we are "wildly exaggerating" when we make these claims, which is why some of us wear that phrase as a badge of honor!
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Post by uberwolf on Apr 30, 2007 18:55:12 GMT -5
So far I think only one character has been totally off characterization.
I can almost see why Tony believes he's doing what he thinks is right. Some of the stuff he pulled was really underhanded though. I'm not done with the series yet so I'm waiting to see what happens at the end for Mr. Stark.
Cap is a little off too. He's too set on being totally against the registration. He's had two oppertunities to sit down and discuss things with Tony, which the Cap I knew would have done. He wouldn't consider all out fighting to be the only course of action. Of course if I was attacked by SHIELD agents even before the registration deadline because I refused to hunt down those who didn't sign, I'd be a little ticked too.
The person I consider to be totally off is Reed. Mind you I've never been a big FF fan and haven't read any issues since the early '90's,but I don't see him jumping on the registration bandwagon. If anyone would have remained neutral I would have thought he would have before Ben, and the Reed I know would never ever have participated in the Clor program. So he did a little math equation. He of all people should know you can't boil down human reaction to simple numbers. There are way too many variables. And even if he would have grudgingly agreed to be on the registration side, I don't believe he would have showed up in person ready to do battle. His help would have been in the lab or trying to communicate with the rebels. No, I don't think Marvel did Reed well at all.
All in all, it's been a pretty good crossover so far. When writers create such a strong emotion whether for or against the characters involved, they're doing their job right.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 30, 2007 19:18:57 GMT -5
But the thing is, UnAmerican Avenger that, like many things Marvel does these days (IMO) it doesn't stand upon close examination: the premise for Tony (and I imagine this applies to Reed as well...) being Pro-Reg is that, being a futurist, he foresaw long time ago that this crisis would take place & started preparing for when the day would come... Now, I'm not against retconns per se, as long as they are cleverly done, but if you're gonna put forth such notion, you better have something to back it up & there's simply not the slightest hint in 44 years of IM's history or characterization to support the idea that he felt this way or thought that this would be the case... Not in anything he did, thought or said... imperius rex's quite valid (in my view) objections to this mess make sense to me: simply put, according to CW's canon, the way he (and the time when he decided to) handled things begs the conclusion that, if that's the kind of futurist Tony is, then he's a terrible one; I wouldn't put any stock on any SF he would write... In other words, poor planning, even worse execution...
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Post by balok on Apr 30, 2007 19:57:29 GMT -5
I initially regarded Tony and Reed as out of character. Doom convinced me that Tony wasn't as out of character as I believed (although I still don't see him doing some of what he's done), and that Steve was also out of character.
I agree that Reed is the most egregious example. I felt that his "math equation" (Isaac Asimov did psychohistory first and better) was a plot device created only to motivate him towards the pro-reg position.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 30, 2007 21:08:55 GMT -5
you know, the more you look at it, the more Steve starts to seem to be written as borderline rabid in places.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 1, 2007 11:12:40 GMT -5
*coughjenkinscough* That said, read Fantastic Four 542. Even I, pro-registration AND a civil war fan, did not fully appreciate Reed's motives until FF 542. It not only explained them, but IO thought was one of the best issues in the war. I know most FF fans celebrated it as a return to greatness and praised the psychohistory concept, with the exception of several folk on this site who weren't so big into it. EDIT: I just noticed, I assume you HAVE read RR542 from your "little maths equation" comment. Well, maybe it's just in context bvut it makes fifty times more sense than any other explanation and even most F4 fans admit it would make Reed's character go pro-reg. And Bong, you're twisting it, the fact that he foresaw it long ago is a MINOR, MINOR part of why Tony went pro-reg. There were much bigger reasons than that. Glad you don't just outright hate it, Unamerican Avenger. Incidentally, if you got ALL the tie-ins that's good and bad. Good because you get gems like Iron Man 14, FF 542, Casualties of War, and bad because you get abominations like New Avengers 22, FF 540 and 541, and... well... Frontline
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 1, 2007 15:29:25 GMT -5
The one thing that I think the story did well was show that each side truly believed in what they were doing. Whether we agree with the characterization (sometimes even character assassination) They did at least make the characters dedicated to their belief.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 1, 2007 16:30:12 GMT -5
I still maintain the only case of character assassination in the war, if we ignore the existence of Frontline, is Typeface! Although I cguess Luke Cage shows character REGRESSION.
From actually unique character to stereotypical black man denied freedom and oppressed by THE MAN, believed of a crime he didn't... whatever, Bendis... :rolleyes:
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Post by uberwolf on May 1, 2007 17:46:52 GMT -5
Some things I find laughable so far...
When did Wolvie get a healing factor upgrade?? When I stopped buying comics he'd lost his healing factor, his adamantium skeleton and was just plain having a bad time. Nitro blasted him to bare bones and he pops up good as new a few minutes later. Not so laughable was the panel of his claws "snickting" through some guys head.
What's up with these new Sentinels?? They look prehistoric compared to the original designs. All sorts of wires, ammo tubes and geegaws sticking out all over. Somebody is an anime fan because the look a lot like the Big O cartoon. I guess they're supposed to look more vicious? They're funny, like giant clowns.
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Post by balok on May 1, 2007 19:31:37 GMT -5
I can't help but notice, Doc, that the issues you regard as great are the pro-reg issues, while the issues you dislike are those that illustrate the other side of that argument - that show the many, many drawbacks of giving government this much power...
Are you evaluating them on the skill with which they were executed, or on whether they aligned with your views?
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Post by Tana Nile on May 2, 2007 0:46:35 GMT -5
I can't help but notice, Doc, that the issues you regard as great are the pro-reg issues, while the issues you dislike are those that illustrate the other side of that argument - that show the many, many drawbacks of giving government this much power... Are you evaluating them on the skill with which they were executed, or on whether they aligned with your views? Oh come on, Balok, you're wildly exaggerating the situation. Besides, I hear Frontline 11 is being retconned out of existence.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 2, 2007 10:35:40 GMT -5
I can't help but notice, Doc, that the issues you regard as great are the pro-reg issues, while the issues you dislike are those that illustrate the other side of that argument - that show the many, many drawbacks of giving government this much power... Are you evaluating them on the skill with which they were executed, or on whether they aligned with your views? Honestly, I know you'll be sceptical but I truly found these some of the best. I don't think that's a co-incidence but not for the reason you think. Almost every writer is anti-registration, ergo in my opinion it is the much more skillful ones who craft a story sympathetic to both sides, thus it is a better story. I don't see how Casualties of War is very pro-reg, for example, I'd regard it as balanced. But just to demonstrate it's really NOT fgor solely that reason, I'll show some other sites that back me up: -Comic Book Revolution gave Iron Man 14 a 10/10 for story -One SilverBulletComicBooks reviewer gave it 5 stars Casualties of War recieved heavy praise from a majority of sites FF Plaza, a FF-centric website, ribs on FF 540 for all the reasons I do- NONE of the characters are acting in-character, and praises 542 for the opposite reason .THe majority of the FF online fanbase seems to feel the same way. I'm in a distinct minority on New Avengers 22 but I know one Cap site calls it the worst issue of Avengers ever, and I hate it not for it's anti-reg leanings, though it certainly has them a-spades with rubbish and wildly out of place references to slavery etc, but for being the single most formulaic comic in a decade. Government try to recruit angry black Suburban Male. Angry black suburban male goes on a self righteous tirade. Government threaten angry black suburban male. Angry black suburban male fights government. Government cause death of civilians. Angry black suburban male is about to go down fighting. Angry black suburban male is rescued by the "cavalry". I correctly predicted where the entire story would go by page three. And getting there was not enjoyable, with stilted dialogue and some heinous art. FF 541 is not anti-reg in any way, nor is it GOOD in any way. And the reason I didn't list, for example, the Cap tie-ins, also brilliant, is because they're great stories as opposed to great Civil War tie-ins.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 2, 2007 19:27:29 GMT -5
Some things I find laughable so far... When did Wolvie get a healing factor upgrade?? When I stopped buying comics he'd lost his healing factor, his adamantium skeleton and was just plain having a bad time. Nitro blasted him to bare bones and he pops up good as new a few minutes later. Not so laughable was the panel of his claws "snickting" through some guys head. What's up with these new Sentinels?? They look prehistoric compared to the original designs. All sorts of wires, ammo tubes and geegaws sticking out all over. Somebody is an anime fan because the look a lot like the Big O cartoon. I guess they're supposed to look more vicious? They're funny, like giant clowns. Don't those new sentinels also look a lot like the Stark armor from House of M?
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 3, 2007 10:31:21 GMT -5
Some things I find laughable so far... When did Wolvie get a healing factor upgrade?? When I stopped buying comics he'd lost his healing factor, his adamantium skeleton and was just plain having a bad time. Nitro blasted him to bare bones and he pops up good as new a few minutes later. Not so laughable was the panel of his claws "snickting" through some guys head. The writer defended that by pointing out other rather extreme things he's done through the years. Personally I'm not exactly happy, but I was more upset at his popping claws through a suit underwater. How exactly he doesn't explode is a mystery to me. Incidentally, Apocalypse restored his adamantium skeleton in the mediocre "The Twelve" storyline of 1999 or thereabouts. I'm sure an X-pert can correct me! I'm convinced David Hine is a transformers fan.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 3, 2007 11:54:43 GMT -5
So I'm not the only one who had a problem with Wolvie growing back from bare bones?
Doesn't the Maestro have wolvies skeleton as a fashionable wristband? Does he have to keep killing him every few minutes to keep him on there. Neat conversation piece.
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Post by uberwolf on May 3, 2007 19:07:18 GMT -5
The writer defended that by pointing out other rather extreme things he's done through the years. Personally I'm not exactly happy, but I was more upset at his popping claws through a suit underwater. Sue went to Atlantis with just a rebreather on. I guess we're supposed to assume she was using her force field to keep the crushing ocean depths at bay.
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Post by uberwolf on May 3, 2007 19:39:15 GMT -5
Well, I finished Civil War. I found the ending to be a let down after all the build up. Overall a good story. I do have a problem with a few things however.
Some of the tie ins .. um.. weren't really tie ins. Two issues of Moon Knight and the only thing I saw that even remotely came close to Civil War was Spiderman and then Cap trying to talk to him. Just a sales ploy there. Same can be said of Blade. SHIELD hires Blade to take down Wolvie. Nice story, hardly something that needed to have Civil War stamped on it.
FF 542. This explains the reason why Reed was Pro Reg. They had to come up with SOME reason to have him on Stark's side. It's not a bad idea, but anyone who's read the Foundation Trilogy knows that the Psychohistory equations failed. At first they were dead on, but then a creature called a Mule was born, a mutant if you will, that altered the universe to the point where the Foundation formula was totally incorrect. There's no way, especially in the Marvel Universe, Reed could formulate every weird event that could impact society as a whole. Impossible I tell you!
The Return was not all that impressive. Eight panels of Mar-Vell saying "let me think". I hope his title is written better than this.
At the end, Steve lost no matter what. If he hadn't given up he would have killed Tony, which for him would have been crossing the line and he would have given up being Cap all together. There's no way he could have walked away a winner and he should have seen that long ago. The biggest problem I have with this is the way Joe Q said Captain America has no place in the modern Marvel world. Cap is the hero that almost ALL superheros compare themselves to. Without Cap as a guiding influence I think Marvel is going to go down a darker, grittier road than they have before and I don't think that's something I wish to see. It's already gotten pretty dim the past few years.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 4, 2007 1:58:05 GMT -5
Nice points, but I have two counterpoints to make, UA
-Reed isn't just smart. He's scary smart. He's mind bogglingly give-me-five-years-and-I'll-cure-world-hunger smart. Now when we consider he's been studying at psychohistory for approximately twenty years, I don't think it's so unbelievale he could create a working model.
-Cap didn't need to "win". All he wanted to do was keep heroing until the government repealed the law, which wasn't totally impossible really, especially had he won the FInal Battle, in which case the government would have had their entire hero force crippled publically, proof that even the gathered heroes they had couldn't stop HEROES, let alone villains, and his own gigantic army of what, around sixty heroes or something.
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Post by uberwolf on May 4, 2007 9:33:17 GMT -5
Nice points, but I have two counterpoints to make, UA -Reed isn't just smart. He's scary smart. He's mind bogglingly give-me-five-years-and-I'll-cure-world-hunger smart. Now when we consider he's been studying at psychohistory for approximately twenty years, I don't think it's so unbelievable he could create a working model. -Cap didn't need to "win". All he wanted to do was keep heroing until the government repealed the law, which wasn't totally impossible really, especially had he won the Final Battle, in which case the government would have had their entire hero force crippled publicly, proof that even the gathered heroes they had couldn't stop HEROES, let alone villains, and his own gigantic army of what, around sixty heroes or something. I was thinking on that, Reed is super smart ( a mutant maybe? ) and he has seen enough strange things in his life time to include it in his formula. The problem I have, is he hasn't seen everything in the multiverse that could pop up and impact the Earth. A planet that is a magnet for strange invaders and multidimensional entities. As for world hunger, there was a book that I totally cannot remember the name of that proved there can never be an end to world hunger without severe programs to enforce birth control. The more food you create, the more people will live and propagate thereby increasing population exponentially. We've already seen this happen the last half a century with medical advances and increased food production. So maybe Reed could devise a plan to end world hunger. What sanctions would he have to enforce on the people of the world to make it happen? For Cap, he did need to win. This is what escalated the whole war. He went from disagreeing with Registration to being a fugitive to standing on his beliefs with the unshakable resolve that his was the only way. He fell back on his military training and years of fighting the good fight but lost his way. When he took in the Punisher he started crossing the line. If he had actually killed Tony he would have said " Oh my God what have I done??!!!" and just walked away never to be seen again, or hand himself over to the authorities and demanded the surrender of his army. I don't see a way Cap could have come out on top this time.
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Post by Doctor Bong on May 4, 2007 10:57:16 GMT -5
Nice points, but I have two counterpoints to make, UA -Reed isn't just smart. He's scary smart. He's mind bogglingly give-me-five-years-and-I'll-cure-world-hunger smart. Now when we consider he's been studying at psychohistory for approximately twenty years, I don't think it's so unbelievable he could create a working model. -Cap didn't need to "win". All he wanted to do was keep heroing until the government repealed the law, which wasn't totally impossible really, especially had he won the Final Battle, in which case the government would have had their entire hero force crippled publicly, proof that even the gathered heroes they had couldn't stop HEROES, let alone villains, and his own gigantic army of what, around sixty heroes or something. I was thinking on that, Reed is super smart ( a mutant maybe? ) and he has seen enough strange things in his life time to include it in his formula. The problem I have, is he hasn't seen everything in the multiverse that could pop up and impact the Earth. A planet that is a magnet for strange invaders and multidimensional entities. As for world hunger, there was a book that I totally cannot remember the name of that proved there can never be an end to world hunger without severe programs to enforce birth control. The more food you create, the more people will live and propagate thereby increasing population exponentially. We've already seen this happen the last half a century with medical advances and increased food production. So maybe Reed could devise a plan to end world hunger. What sanctions would he have to enforce on the people of the world to make it happen? For Cap, he did need to win. This is what escalated the whole war. He went from disagreeing with Registration to being a fugitive to standing on his beliefs with the unshakable resolve that his was the only way. He fell back on his military training and years of fighting the good fight but lost his way. When he took in the Punisher he started crossing the line. If he had actually killed Tony he would have said " Oh my God what have I done??!!!" and just walked away never to be seen again, or hand himself over to the authorities and demanded the surrender of his army. I don't see a way Cap could have come out on top this time. Yes but, as it has been pointed out before, obviously, at any given moment the characters can only do what the writers allow them to do, and situations can only develop the way said writer says so, so yes, the WAY they wrote Cap to be here, taking in the Punisher & almost killing IM, there's no way he could have won, but... no doubt another writer (and another EIC) would have come with a different Cap & a different scenario, where perhaps Cap would not have tried to kill IM...
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Post by balok on May 4, 2007 14:13:33 GMT -5
-Reed isn't just smart. He's scary smart. He's mind bogglingly give-me-five-years-and-I'll-cure-world-hunger smart. Now when we consider he's been studying at psychohistory for approximately twenty years, I don't think it's so unbelievale he could create a working model. Hari Seldon, the Asimov character who created the science for the Foundation books, worked on the theory his entire life and still did not complete it. While it's questionable that he was as smart as Reed (although he was darn smart) he had advantages Reed lacks, like computing power and advances in mathematical theory ten thousand years in advance of what's available now. Even given that Reed's equipment is more advanced that what's generally available, he's not at that level. Additionally, Seldon's theory only worked for large groups - millions of people - because the actions of individuals tended to average out in predictable ways. (See also: new theories on the use of carbon nanotubes in electronics.) Reed's theory would have to be far more sophisticated even than what Seldon derived to predict the long term effects of even the few thousand powers in the world. The writers can certainly say that Reed did this, 'cause they can write anything into the book they want. They just can't make me, at least, believe it. It's too much.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 4, 2007 14:47:53 GMT -5
Seldon also showed that the opposite end of the Universe is right here. It has absolutely no bearing on this conversation I'm just proud that I remember it.
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Post by uberwolf on May 5, 2007 7:36:28 GMT -5
Good memory! Give Nutty a cookie!
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 6, 2007 16:32:33 GMT -5
Better yet, give him some HostessĀ® snack cakes, to distract him long enough for us to catch up with his posts!
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Post by Engage on May 6, 2007 23:12:18 GMT -5
I was thinking on that, Reed is super smart ( a mutant maybe? ) and he has seen enough strange things in his life time to include it in his formula. The problem I have, is he hasn't seen everything in the multiverse that could pop up and impact the Earth. A planet that is a magnet for strange invaders and multidimensional entities. As for world hunger, there was a book that I totally cannot remember the name of that proved there can never be an end to world hunger without severe programs to enforce birth control. The more food you create, the more people will live and propagate thereby increasing population exponentially. We've already seen this happen the last half a century with medical advances and increased food production. So maybe Reed could devise a plan to end world hunger. What sanctions would he have to enforce on the people of the world to make it happen? The thing with Reed is that he could do it anyway. It might involve alternate universes and Kirby machine, but he could make it happen. His predictions fits his character exactly, and even if it felt slapped onto the end of Civil War my McDuffie to explain what he was doing it was enough for me. It wasn't like he was predicting what a single person would do in a hundred years, but it was where society would generally move in the relatively near future. That seems pretty reasonable for the level of science that Reed's practiced for the last sixty years.
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Post by uberwolf on May 7, 2007 7:29:42 GMT -5
The thing with Reed is that he could do it anyway. It might involve alternate universes and Kirby machine, but he could make it happen. His predictions fits his character exactly, and even if it felt slapped onto the end of Civil War my McDuffie to explain what he was doing it was enough for me. It wasn't like he was predicting what a single person would do in a hundred years, but it was where society would generally move in the relatively near future. That seems pretty reasonable for the level of science that Reed's practiced for the last sixty years. It makes sense why he went pro reg, but this math formula in no way explains to me why he had anything at all to do with the Clor project. Sure he had no idea knowing it would go berserk and kill someone, but with that kind of power how could you not fear the worst. That's aside from the fact he was making a clone cyborg of a fellow hero and friend. The Reed I remembered would have politely refused to be a part of that project.
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Post by Engage on May 7, 2007 12:21:26 GMT -5
It makes sense why he went pro reg, but this math formula in no way explains to me why he had anything at all to do with the Clor project. Sure he had no idea knowing it would go berserk and kill someone, but with that kind of power how could you not fear the worst. That's aside from the fact he was making a clone cyborg of a fellow hero and friend. The Reed I remembered would have politely refused to be a part of that project. I agree. Clor made no sense at all. If it was all the hammer, why did they even need to clone Thor? Why not just give someone the hammer?
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