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Post by dlw66 on Feb 21, 2007 10:24:48 GMT -5
I'm afraid you old fogeys will just have to forgive me. I'm just a young, 24-year old whipper-snapper, what with my video games and DVDs and acne and New Avengers . . . ~W~ If acne is still a problem for you, I think I'd have that looked at by a physician...
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Post by thew40 on Feb 21, 2007 11:08:27 GMT -5
I'm afraid you old fogeys will just have to forgive me. I'm just a young, 24-year old whipper-snapper, what with my video games and DVDs and acne and New Avengers . . . ~W~ If acne is still a problem for you, I think I'd have that looked at by a physician... Well, to be honest, I really don't have acne anymore . . . with the exception of the occassional pimple here and there. ----- There was a reference to what Cap said to Kang about him being a "jacked-up little Hitler." Now, to me, that goes hand-in-hand with Cap's dialogue in "Civil War." ~W~
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 21, 2007 11:17:09 GMT -5
Question: does Cap, in terms of writing him "correctly" in speech and mannerisms, present the same problems for Marvel writers that Superman presents for DC writers? They are similar characters in terms of what they represent.
I don't keep up with Cap's own book, but I've gotten a bit of a sense that there's now a little more Batman in Cap and a little less Superman...
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Post by imperiusrex on Feb 21, 2007 12:49:20 GMT -5
W -- I wouldn't call a 40-year old man "Rexy", but that's maybe just me... 40! Really?!?! I wasn't even thinking! Sorry, ImperiousRex! I'm afraid you old fogeys will just have to forgive me. I'm just a young, 24-year old whipper-snapper, what with my video games and DVDs and acne and New Avengers . . . ~W~ Rexy?Even if I was still fifteen, might have issues with that ;D. W, believe me it's not a matter of age when it comes to these stories. I don't dislike the trappings of you young whippersnappers. I listen to the rap and watch the MTV... To me it's more about art critique. Like I tend not to say "this sucks." I tend to say "this doesn't work because the story has too many flaws to suspend disbelief." Like if we were both at an art museum and I said "Oh I don't like this painting, the perspective is wrong, the brushwork is too apparent and it doesn't evoke any emotion." and the reply I got was "you just don't get impressionism," that's not really a dialogue. And that was my main problem. If you could show me examples of why Cap would be reacting this way, I might have to reconsider my point. That's why i was really disappointed, because there wasn't any real rebuttal about the characterization. But believe me, I would love to love marvel comics. I hated the Liefeld/Lee/Portacio/Silvestri experiment with Heroes Reborn and loved the stuff that came after. The stories that came in their wake were well written, in character and well illustrated. I just want stories I enjoy. If you're enjoying marvel's current bent, that's good. I'm not and feel okay about expressing it as long as I have valid complaints that I'm willing to back up. But I hope you enjoy the issue. Comes out today, right?
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Post by imperiusrex on Feb 21, 2007 12:52:01 GMT -5
If acne is still a problem for you, I think I'd have that looked at by a physician... Well, to be honest, I really don't have acne anymore . . . with the exception of the occassional pimple here and there. ----- There was a reference to what Cap said to Kang about him being a "jacked-up little Hitler." Now, to me, that goes hand-in-hand with Cap's dialogue in "Civil War." ~W~ Well that's an angry outburst during a one on one battle with a dictator compared to a snarky obnoxious gloat during a fight between onetime allies. I myself don't think they're comparable.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 21, 2007 12:56:20 GMT -5
But believe me, I would love to love marvel comics. I hated the Liefeld/Lee/Portacio/Silvestri experiment with Heroes Reborn and loved the stuff that came after. By the way, in the new, now declassified solicits that Phantom posted, there is a reference in one of the upcoming Avengers tales to Marc Silvestri being something to the effect of a "modern master". Wow... Guess it all depends on your opinion and point of reference. I don't totally dislike his work, but he's just so... so... IMAGE!!! But, time tends to cloud the mind.
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 21, 2007 14:38:42 GMT -5
Well, to be honest, I really don't have acne anymore . . . with the exception of the occassional pimple here and there. ----- There was a reference to what Cap said to Kang about him being a "jacked-up little Hitler." Now, to me, that goes hand-in-hand with Cap's dialogue in "Civil War." ~W~ Well that's an angry outburst during a one on one battle with a dictator compared to a snarky obnoxious gloat during a fight between onetime allies. I myself don't think they're comparable. Thanks Rex, that's exactly the point I was trying to get across. It takes somebody like Kang (who at the time had wiped out Washington!) to set Cap off! I just can't see Cap making arrogant, nasty remarks to soldiers, former friends, etc.
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Post by thew40 on Feb 21, 2007 20:10:26 GMT -5
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! Just read through the issue, along with the first six before hand. Great issue, full of a ton of "WOW" moments. Highlights include: - Namor showing up with the Atlantians - Hercules to Clor: "THOU ART NO THOR!" and using Clor's "hammer" to smash his head in (to which I actually shouted "YES! YES! AWESOME!") - Plus: nobody died! Er . . . except for Clor. But was he even really alive? - A happy ending . . . I was really impressed by this issue. It was a little anti-climatic and I wish that a little more time had been spent with Cap coming to terms with the fact that the public hates him now (really, if they had even just had an extra panel or two showing a larger crowd), but the ending worked for me. Awesome battle. Great ending, with the feeling of a new beginning. I love love love the Intiative idea. Makes a ton of sense. Plus "42" turning out to be just a number of an idea list? Brillant. Awesome comic. Can't wait to read the entire crossover as one uber-huge story. ~W~
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Feb 21, 2007 20:17:02 GMT -5
Spoiler
I liked the issue overall, but I absolutely hated the way the battle ended. Cap would have thought all of this through and would have seen it to the end once he determined his course. As a soldier, he would have recognized that some collateral damage was likely. I just bugged the he!! out of me. I must say I loved Herc crushing Clor's skull like a grape, even if his line was a lame rip off of Lloyd Benson.
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Post by Van Plexico on Feb 21, 2007 20:40:39 GMT -5
Okay, I've read it... and I have extremely mixed feelings about it.
A spoiler
space
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parts:
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I've been trying for the last couple of hours to figure out just how I feel about this whole thing.
For one thing, it surprised me. I didn't think we'd get such a... comprehensive... outcome and settlement, at least for now, at the end.
I also didn't expect Tony to suddenly seem like a "good guy" again, after being dragged through the mud for the last few months.
Perhaps the best thing for me to do would be to skim through the book and comment on specific things, since I can't quite seem to draw up a single, overall evaluation of it. So here we go:
A bunch of battle stuff for several pages. Okay, fine-- not *remotely* as well-presented as the Cheung art of a similarly massive battle in YOUNG AVENGERS #12 (how much better would this have looked if he'd drawn it? My mind boggles...).
Namor arrives. *yawn*
RoboThor arrives. Huh. And Mar-Vell-- who is promptly never seen again. Hoo-kay.
Cap fights dirty and somehow manages to take Iron Man down. Fine, dandy-- the Tony-haters have something to cheer, now. Woo hoo.
Taskmaster shoots Reed. Hey, I was cheering at this part.
Sue stomps Tasky. Funny.
Hercules (channeling Lloyd Bentsen) rather graphically kills RoboThor. Yuck.
The general public tackles Cap. HuhbuhsayWHA??
Cap surrenders. Okay: Approximately half of me sort of gets what Millar (and his collaborators) had in mind here, and says, "Yeah, that's the best way this could have ended."
The other half of me says, "Okay, after being Mr. Dedicated Leader to the Rebels for months--including everything he's said to/done with Tony-- and suddenly he has a flash of conscience and just surrenders? And sells out all his allies in the process?? THIS IS YOUR GREAT LEADER, Anti-Reg folks??
Suddenly my boy Tony doesn't look so bad.
Now, from an IM-fan perspective, I say "Yay. Finally, the downside of Steve's agenda, and the negative side of his actions, are portrayed. After months of Cap's every utterance being regarded as the gospel of God Awmighty, and Shellhead being pilloried as the worst villain since Ultron.... we finally see that Cap has feet of clay, too.
But from a neutral, just-reading-the-story perspective, this makes little sense. Again, I can see what Millar was going for, but... it just doesn't work, at least for me. No matter how happy it makes me.
The Neg Zone prison is still up and running. I swear, if the Reg folks had put a tenth as much effort into putting VILLAINS into that thing as they did (or were portrayed doing) putting HEROES into it, they wouldn't have seemed nearly as "evil." Gaah.
(42. And here I was thinking it was a tribute to Douglas Adams. Ah, well. I still think it was, though.)
(And I guess that means Mar-Vell still has a job-- it lasted more than the couple of weeks since THE RETURN-- I had suspected it wouldn't...)
Yellowjacket is TIME's Man of the Year. Who saw *that* coming, even last month? Hilarious.
Sue comes home. Waaaaaaaaay too soon for that. When Namor showed up, I was *soooooooo* hoping we'd get months of Sue as Namor's consort in Atlantis. Now *that* would have been fun. Then, maybe a year or two from now, she could have a falling out with him and go back to Reed. I'd have bought that series.
Cap sits in jail. Am I supposed to feel sorry for him? Yeah, he'd earned that, up until this issue. But now? I don't seem to find much sympathy for him within myself. Stew a little bit, Steve. Think on what you have wrought, both in leading this rebellion and in handing it over to the law. It might do ya good.
And finally, My Boy is running SHIELD, and he's all polished up and heroic (eat $#it, Hill!!), and everything seems pretty darned good again.
But I know.... I don't just suspect, I know, regardless of how hard it is to tell from the art at the end... that he has something else in mind. Not just items 43-100 as he mentioned, but something else. Part of my li'l ol' IM-lovin' heart is excited by this. And part of it is very, very nervous.
Okay, there you go-- the whole comic. Some parts I liked, some parts I thought were ridiculous. My overall evaluation? Impossible to give. We don't know what will come of this.
I'll say this much, though. I'm glad it's over. For better or for worse (and mostly for worse, despite Millar surely doing the best he could with it), I'm very glad it's over...
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Post by thew40 on Feb 21, 2007 21:03:00 GMT -5
A fair review, Van, though I obviously enjoyed it much more than you did.
Iron Man is and always was a good guy. I've been saying that since the beginning.
But as I noted, Cap surrendered way too fast I liked that he succumbed to public pressure, but it was just waaaay too fast. Hopefully some of the other tie-ins and whatnot will expand on his feelings at that moment.
Tony telling Hill to get him coffee? Oh man, I laughed out loud! Eat $#!^, indeed!
I've always been a little underwhelmed by Iron Man, to be honest. To me, he was just "that guy in that cool armor." But now? "Civil War" made me like Iron Man more than Captain America.
~W~
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 21, 2007 21:41:41 GMT -5
Spoiler - - - - - - - - - - Okay, I was actually a fan of the Civil War series up till now. I think it's been fairly well written and something needed to shake up the MU. However, I was very disappointed with the end. Months and months of build up, sides being chosen, people dying, marriages being broken, secret identities being revealed, double crosses, clever prison breaks, a cloned Thor, and the biggest super beings war I've ever seen which included the suprise returns of Captain Marvel, Thing, Namor... all to result in... a surrender. Not a surrender from the losing team but by one man who let down all of his followers because he ... changed his mind. Suddenly, months and months of damage are supposedly undone and the world is a great place where people can feel good about their heroes. Former super villains who haven't really proved themselves and new heroes who nobody's ever heard of (There has to be if there are enough for a team in every state) somehow assure people that there won't be another disaster like the one at Stamford. I just don't buy it. Even the whole "Now I can reveal why we called this prison 42" just fizzled with "Because it was the 42nd idea we came up with." There was even so much hinting that there would be a major death here but there wasn't, unless you consider Clor major.
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Post by Van Plexico on Feb 21, 2007 23:55:40 GMT -5
Spoiler - - - - - - - - - -
If anyone here has watched BABYLON 5 as religiously as I did, you will maybe understand why I find it mildly ironic that Joe Straczynski was in the room when all this was planned and plotted.
The Minbari had wiped out everything we had, and they had crushed us at the Battle of the Line, and they stood poised to utterly destroy the Earth, and then... they surrendered...
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Feb 22, 2007 13:27:22 GMT -5
SPOLIERS REFERENCED
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I haven't read 7 yet, but I have read all the spoilers (spoilers never ruin anything for me... I'm lucky like that).
I am going to have to read it myself, but as I was reading all the stuff on 7, I got to thinking about what were the writers trying to say about real-world state of affairs.
But then after hitting the marvel.com website, and seeing their "solicit" list... it just dawned on me. There was no statement being made by Civil War at all... everything that Marvel now does is solely for driving the movie business.
Which really puts a damper on things for me. I always used to view the Marvel Universe as this whole other world, where the stories of all these people developed naturally alongside our world. Major events would happen that would play out through all the books, and as much as that was about selling more comic books, at least there seemed to be more to it. To help drive new stories and fresh ideas.
Now it feels so forced and contrived, in order to trump up interest and help market movies only. And to me, that will lead to nothing but poor product both on screen and on paper. Would anyone who has read CW7 have said that is how you would have predicited it to end? Maybe I am repeating themes found in other posts through the board (W's xover to xover, and I recall someone mentioning the whole movie build-up issue as well)... I don't know, I suddenly felt like the last bit of evidence was now in. It seems as much like a smoking gun as any.
And what pains me even more, now that I have rediscovered my love of comics from years long gone, is that they have the next couple of cycles already planned out. There will be another major event following WWHulk, that will really put Cap in the spotlight.
I just hate being able to predict how Marvel stories will flow, by looking at their upcoming film schedules, rather than by understanding or having a knwoledge about the characters themselves.
I know I went all over the place with this post, so my apologies to those who end this and go... "huh?!?"
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Post by Black Knight on Feb 22, 2007 13:59:55 GMT -5
Spoiler - - - - - - - - - - If anyone here has watched BABYLON 5 as religiously as I did, you will maybe understand why I find it mildly ironic that Joe Straczynski was in the room when all this was planned and plotted. The Minbari had wiped out everything we had, and they had crushed us at the Battle of the Line, and they stood poised to utterly destroy the Earth, and then... they surrendered...d**n you Sinclair.. SOrry I just had to.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 22, 2007 14:56:37 GMT -5
SPOOOILERS
Okay, I'm betting this board hated it. So this is my full review, biased towards CW as it is. Copy pasted from me at CBR. If you want a summary; I loved it.
Oh and RSC, your post on the first page of this thread is ridiculous. Firstly, trim it out to the named characters. Then take one look at the death lsit for Infinite Crisis. Civil War killed an INSANELY small number of characters in comparison- in fact, only one hero died in the main mini, whereas dozens died in IC 4 or 7 alone, not to mention an entire city's population.
Plus Battle of New York kicked Battle of Metorpolis' asses.
I'm fully aware you will mostly disagree with every word I say:
I think this may be the best issue of any comic I have read in well over a decade.
The Cap surrender is now my favourite moment of civil war. The simpel... the realisation that he has been on the WRONG side, the sudden moment where he finally realises that he's fighting for his super heroes, fighting for HIS guys rather than for the people, is the most powerful image of civil war for me.
And it works because that's his character.
Because that's Captain America.
Because that's what he DOES. He HAS caused all this damage, and he HAS created a war which has injured or brought down so many, and it IS his fault... and now he KNOWS it.
Honestly, Mark Millar is my favourite writer but I just never for a moment believed he was capable for scripting that utterly shocking, incredible and in-character moment. Joss Whedon's hand is evident.
The arrival of the Atlanteans and the Initiative forces were both excellent shocks- kudos to whoever predicted the former, cos I remember someone did.
Also nice redemption of Reed in there! Brought things full circle, and our showing that the Initiative was not an evil diabolical torture device but rather a functioning, incredibly benificiary project- just as so few of us in the readers had said it would be- was another reversal. I was expecting the pros to win with the revelation that the antis were RIGHT... the cheap way out. I was not to be disappointed.
And Hercules killing Clor has to be another great moment for the list.
But seriously guys.. just because Tony DOESN'T have a sinister ulterior motive, just because he DOESN'T have a clone army, and "Number Forty-Two" isn't some evil indicator, and Miriam Sharpe ISN'T Loki etc, no reason to bash on a fantastic issue which really makes me very excited for the new status quo- Cap #25 especially!
I cannot, in good conscience, give this issue less than 10/10. A perfect score for an issue which was not perfect, but isd the most entertaining I've read in a long time.
Oh, and even for you haters, you should know better than to say THIS was more anticlimatic than Infinite Crisis. IC 7 opened with a "By the way, the villains are all attacking Metropolis. Why? So we can have a giant battle. I mean, they ahve no real purpose and you won'e ven see the end of said battle and it will ultimately have no effect at ALL but let's all go there and fight."
At least the climax to civil war actually took place AT the battle site!
PS: Enormous kudos for not having a gratutious deah. Millar stood by his promise, even though I myself was sucked into the Fallen Son promos.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 22, 2007 15:55:22 GMT -5
Doom --
Did you read Identity Crisis? It was very good and it wasn't necessary to have any debates about who was and who was not in character...
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Post by thew40 on Feb 22, 2007 16:19:51 GMT -5
Doctor Doom . . . you're my new best friend and I agree with just about everything you just said.
~W~
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Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 22, 2007 16:37:31 GMT -5
Thew40- Yeah well I have always agreed with your views myself. Well, not always. But I do get annoyed at the constant cynicism here, as I know do you.
Dlw66- You just went down in my estimation I'm afraid! Identity Crisis was hideous. Not only was the last issue the definition of anticlimax but I DO consider so-called "Heroes" BRAINWASHING and TAMPERING WITH THE MINDS of their so-called friends is ten thousand times worse and more out of character than anything Iron Man has done in Civil War.
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Post by imperiusrex on Feb 22, 2007 17:51:03 GMT -5
SPOOOILERS Okay, I'm betting this board hated it. I'm fully aware you will mostly disagree with every word I say: Oh, and even for you haters, you should know better than to say THIS was more anticlimatic than Infinite Crisis. . Well as long as your mind is open... But seriously, what's the point of even trying to respond to this sort of thing? It's obvious we're miles apart and you have the attitude that there's no way we can't present a good response about how poor some of find the issue. Is this really any different than anyone who comes on here saying how bad the issue is? You've got a concrete point of view and you'll defend it to the death. Bravo. But how is that any different than those of us who won't like it? Look, there's no way I would go to Millarworld and try to get the people there to see my point of view and then be surprised when they didn't agree. I'd be outnumbered fifty to one. Five minutes of reading this board would tell you the tone; there's a lot of traditionalists who don't enjoy the current storytelling style (and make no mistake it is a style-in the same way Marvel had their grim and gritty period and their big shoulder pads Liefeld era, it's a storytelling style), so why are you harping on what you already know? I personally hope this miniseries joins the ranks of Secret Wars II in the annals of best left forgotten, but that's just me. And a bunch of other members here. But if you're going to come here shouldn't you expect that?
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 22, 2007 19:00:17 GMT -5
Well as long as your mind is open... But seriously, what's the point of even trying to respond to this sort of thing? It's obvious we're miles apart and you have the attitude that there's no way we can't present a good response about how poor some of find the issue. Is this really any different than anyone who comes on here saying how bad the issue is? You've got a concrete point of view and you'll defend it to the death. Bravo. But how is that any different than those of us who won't like it? Look, there's no way I would go to Millarworld and try to get the people there to see my point of view and then be surprised when they didn't agree. I'd be outnumbered fifty to one. Five minutes of reading this board would tell you the tone; there's a lot of traditionalists who don't enjoy the current storytelling style (and make no mistake it is a style-in the same way Marvel had their grim and gritty period and their big shoulder pads Liefeld era, it's a storytelling style), so why are you harping on what you already know? I personally hope this miniseries joins the ranks of Secret Wars II in the annals of best left forgotten, but that's just me. And a bunch of other members here. But if you're going to come here shouldn't you expect that? As is often the case, I agree. I'm not sure why we can't just be people who post on the same board but have different opinions without having to be labeled as "haters" just because we don't love the direction the current books are taking. (Of course, for the record, I don't hate everything Marvel does. I do, however, hate the direction certain books have taken and have particulary expressed my displeasure with one particular writer.) What really bugs me is that certain people don't respect our right to post our thoughts. Thew keeps saying he wants a board where everyone can come on and just discuss how much they like things. I personally can't imagine anything more boring. I guess it would look something like this. Poster #1: Wow, I sure loved the new issue of NA. It's the best ever. Poster #2: I agree, and the artwork is fantastic. Poster #3: I'm glad you said that. I especially liked the part where Wolverine... Poster #4: Hey, you guys are right, but that wasn't nearly as good as when Spidey said to Cage... Poster #5: Hey, did anyone notice that Dr. Strange's mustache was longer on page 6 than on page 5. That was kind of odd. Poster #1: What's a hater doing here? Poster #2: That kind of comment was uncalled for. Poster #3: Let's ignore the old guy. He must be one of those that thinks that mustaches all have to be the same length. Poster #4: Yeah, he probably just wants Roy Thomas to come back and thinks thinks that every issue shouldbe the same. Poster #1: Ha. Ha. You guys are great. I can't wait till next issue. I hear there's going to be ninjas.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 23, 2007 2:52:58 GMT -5
spiderwasp, you're secret identity wouldn't happen to be Tom Tomorrow, liberal cartoonist of "This Modern World" fame, would it...?
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 23, 2007 8:04:16 GMT -5
Dlw66- You just went down in my estimation I'm afraid! Identity Crisis was hideous. Not only was the last issue the definition of anticlimax but I DO consider so-called "Heroes" BRAINWASHING and TAMPERING WITH THE MINDS of their so-called friends is ten thousand times worse and more out of character than anything Iron Man has done in Civil War. But, my young friend (and I hope we can still be that despite my lesser status in your message board universe...), had you been a reader of the DCU from the Bronze Age forward, with its whitebread, cardboard cut-out characters, you'd have recognized that the mindwiping PROBABLY COULD HAVE HAPPENED (remember -- it's a retcon) and would certainly have been a reason as to why the DCU was the way it was. Perhaps Meltzer and his cohorts used this as a plot device to again attempt to wipe away some of the reputation DC has had for being so non-confrontational with its readers. Sure, there's been the occasional edgy story in the DCU, but DC has taken great pains to preserve the "truth, justice, and the American way" of their characters in the public eye. Edgy generally gets moved over to the Vertigo imprint. It's my opinion that this story was a bold attempt to break down those stereotypes, put it in a world that is much more dark than light... If you want a comparative take on this, witness only the commentary by the DCU heroes as they leapt to the Marvel Universe during the Avengers/JLA mini. Time and again Superman and others comment on what a loose, out-of-control world the Marvel characters inhabit, while Cap and others rebuke them for controlling their own DC world. I think this is what Meltzer was getting at -- attempting to put a little Marvel in a DC world. Maybe I'm dumb, but I was certainly captivated by the story and eagerly awaiting each issue. And careful -- you might be a hater on Identity Crisis. There's constant cynicism here, you know.
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Post by balok on Feb 23, 2007 9:27:13 GMT -5
"Hater" checking in here... (SPOILERS) If you want a summary; I loved it. I have mixed feelings. It ended about as well as it could end. I don't like the way it ended, and I have made that statement to Marvel by ceasing to purchase most of their books. That's all I can do. At some point, if they change their universe from the unpleasant place it is now to a pleasanter one, I may return. The Cap surrender is now my favourite moment of civil war. The simpel... the realisation that he has been on the WRONG side, the sudden moment where he finally realises that he's fighting for his super heroes, fighting for HIS guys rather than for the people, is the most powerful image of civil war for me. It is, in fact, my least favorite moment. I understand why he did it - he saw the collateral damage. But let's face it, as much of that was caused by Tony's people as was caused by Cap's. Cap's surrender was enormously out of character. Had he taken this attitude during World War II, the Marvel Universe would all now be speaking German. Because what Cap forgot was that the fight was about freedom. Tony's side represents authoritarianism and slavery, albeit only for those unfortunate enough to be born with powers. Cap's side represents freedom. I guess it's okay to enslave a minority if you're the majority. I liked the book because of the parallels to the current political situation and certain things the United States is doing that are morally wrong, like torture and rendition. But I immediately disliked the book when the wrong side won. Ultimate Cap once asked someone if the "A" on his cowl stood for France, when it was suggested he surrender. And while that's a mischaracterization of France, I suggest that 616 Cap replace the "A" on his cowl, with a "J" for Judas, or an "S" for Surrender, or even a "C" for Coward. And Hercules killing Clor has to be another great moment for the list. What difference does it make? They'll just build another one. Oh, sure, Reed says he won't - but c'mon, when the chips are down, you know he will. But seriously guys.. just because Tony DOESN'T have a sinister ulterior motive, just because he DOESN'T have a clone army, and "Number Forty-Two" isn't some evil indicator, and Miriam Sharpe ISN'T Loki etc, no reason to bash on a fantastic issue which really makes me very excited for the new status quo- Cap #25 especially! Well, supposedly we find out next week what the 'real' reason for the Civil War was, in Frontline #11 (if the solicitations are right), but let's assume Tony didn't have an ulterior motive. Ever heard what the road to Hell is paved with? Tony's building that road by teaching people that freedom isn't important. General hero amnesty? What th'? While we don't know exactly what motivated each member of the anti forces, it seems astonishing that many of them who were passionate enough to go underground and risk indefinite imprisonment for an ideal would simply... accept the new status. We don't know, yet, who is a member of the underground and who is not. There's no way Sue should have returned this quickly. I think they could have mined that separation for a lot of story material. But, Tony Stark, you've certainly accomplished something here. I brought you a gift - a bottle of 25 year old Lagavulin. Drink it in good health!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 23, 2007 12:00:37 GMT -5
Actually, I'd say you wouldn't- the Millarworld populace is surprisingly unbiased, all things considered Five minutes of reading on this board would tell me that most of the posters here are negative towards anything and everything Marvel does and have closed minds, that's true. But that means I shouldn't join? I love the Avengers, I want to talk about them on a message board. I disagree wit hthis forum. Okay, so that means I come here and I DISAGREE- I argue, I debate and I present the opposing side of view because someone has to. Only it becomes frustrating when I see the same arguments again and again and again, repeated over and over, even when disproven, even when discredited, just repeated in a long rant and then someone ELSE agrees with the rant and rants themselvesm and so it goes on. SOmeone needs to argue back. You're implying I should just go. And I think that would And I'm telling you there's no way it will EVER attain that status, and that's basically a fact. Expect it? Yes. Do I have to like it? No. You become a "hater" when you are so deeply set in your ways that The W, or I, or any number of unbbiased forummers who look at this board, can say "Imperiusrex will absoloutely despise issue 28 of New Avengers." or "Imperiusrex will dislike civil war intensely" or "Imperisurex will hate everything that comes out of civil war"- and KNOW it's true, and KNOW oyu'll ahte it, more on principle than anything else.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Feb 23, 2007 12:44:56 GMT -5
This seems to be a COLOSSAL misunderstanding. Read the book again ,Cap did NOT surrender just because of collateral damage. People wanted registration, and the common people- firemen, hospital workers etc, feared him and supported Tony. Cap was WRONG...
...Except he was not Judas, nor was he a coward. He surrendered not because he had lost- he had WON, but because he was WRONG. Wow. Cap was right to quit and admit he was wrong in his beliefs, because he realized that the majority of people wanted something that he didn't? Is that what you are saying?? The Captain America that I grew up reading, would never give up his principles based on popular opinion. And there is a long laundry list of evidence over the course of Marvel history to support that.... of course that's something that Joe Q and Co. don't seem to really care about anymore (which is the main gripe of most people on this board). Cap's falling out with the Avengers who wanted to kill the Supreme Intelligence, or Cap becoming The Captain are a couple of prime examples. There are certain inalienable rights that can't be revoked or encroached upon based simply on majority vote. Captain America would never deny his own conscience, and allow a certain minority sector of the population have somethign forced on them by the majority. What happened to all men being created equal? Being treated equally? You only lose your inalienable rights in this country if you essentially take away or restrict (or attempt to do either) the inalienable rights of others. Not because you MIGHT attempt to do that to others. It is the weakness of the government and those who have supposedly sworn to serve and protect it, to not uphold the rights of the individual out of fear of unapproving majority. The fear of losing their own power that the approval of the majority gives them. To afraid to go against the majority. In my estimation, if more people held to their convictions, like the Cap I remember, like the Cap who existed up until CW #7, then the whole CW would have been averted, or at least stopped not long after it began.
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Post by imperiusrex on Feb 23, 2007 12:58:40 GMT -5
I don't say you should leave, merely not be surprised when a lot of people don't like something here. And hey, plenty of comics have fallen by the wayside and ignored. Spider Clone was a big seller and had a pivotal event and someone decided to essentially ignore it because it wasn't good for long term business. if there's a regime change and someone looks at CW the same way, it'll go away. You can't say it'll never happen. It could happen next year if Joe's sales figures drop... And that'll be business. And here's what's missing from your post doom, one when I don't like something I present a thorough reason as to why I don't like it. Bendis, Millar et al have a very similar writing style and approach to comics for example so it's not impossible that I wouldn't like a lot coming out of marvel. It's as if Tarantino was directing every movie coming out of United Artists. People would say I didn't like UA because I disliked everything he was doing. But if I don't like his style and he's doing a vast majority of what they're putting out, then it's kind of hard to not dislike it. What you do is say "you're haters" which invalidates my well thought out opinions and that's just far worse. And it's fairly easy to say that every big marvel event will get the "doom seal of approval." you're just as predictable which is my point. you're drinking marvel's kool aid and I'm not. and my point is we know this going in. after reading your posts to hear you say you're unbiased is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read and if that's the way you truly feel, I can't even bother to continue this. and I've been to millarworld and jinxworld and I wouldn't call them unbiased at all...
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Post by balok on Feb 23, 2007 13:03:00 GMT -5
toneloc, thank you for exactly stating the heart of my objections to Cap's actions.
Doctor Doom, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. You might even be right about Frontline #11, although I wonder why such a story couldn't be printed. Certainly Marvel isn't going to make this kind of permanent change [1] and then suggest maybe they were wrong. Enjoy Marvel in good health, but I'm sure you'll understand why I hope they falter and fail, and that Bendis, Millar, and Quesada get ridden out of town on a rail for perpetrating this mess.
And I'll ask you this: suppose YOU were born in the 616 universe with some ability. You don't even know it, until all the sudden you see person pinned under a car. Rushing to help, you find yourself easily able to lift the car from the person. They're grateful, but some people saw you do it, and one of them called you in. You now have three choices: (1) imprisonment for an indefinite period of time in a hostile dimension, subject to the whims of Tony Stark and SHIELD, or (2) work for Tony Stark, doing whatever he asks whenever he asks it, or (3) get hunted down by the Thunderbolts or some other team, and if you're lucky enough that they don't sever your spinal column while they create massive collateral damage that they blame you for, then you get nanites injected into your bloodsteam, and enslaved by Norman Osborne, or sent to that prison indefinitely. And all of that because you tried to help someone.
Does that sound like a world where you'd like to live?
[1] as permanent as anything is in comics.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 23, 2007 13:03:01 GMT -5
Doom, you get an exalt from me. You and I don't often see eye to eye, but I really appreciate the time you put into writing your position.
I don't necessarily think everyone on here sees the current Marvel in black and white terms. If you go on the NA threads, I made a post in the Issue 27 thread about a few issues I'd recently read. Some stuff I liked, but overall (OVERALL) I don't like NA. Does it have high points? Sometimes. But the low points, for me, always outweigh the good stuff. And that is how I see it.
And, as an older reader, I still feel alienated. You and I grew up with different Marvel Universes. I thought the point made elsewhere that some feel the Marvel Universe ended with Heroes Reborn was a good one. While there have been some good stories told since then, it's just not the same Marvel anymore. Some of our readers just don't have that frame of reference -- you can't "get it" just from reading back issues. It's kind of a "you had to be there" sort of thing.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 23, 2007 14:46:51 GMT -5
I'm saying Cap was right to quit and admit he was wrong in his beliefs because... *shock* Cap was wrong in his beliefs.
Except that this isn't JUST that he knows the people are against him, not JUST that he realises he's fighting democracy. He's caused a war among friends with much collateral damage... because he personally disagrees with a law which has been OVERWHELMINGLY supported by the people. Anmd if the Cap I knew got to grips with that, he wouldn't keep fighting cops.
Except that the majority of that minority want this as well.
And in my opinion, if more people did what was right, did what they could and stayed true to their people like Iron Man, we would also never have had a civil war at all.
Honestly I try, but the imaginativeness and sheer mind-boggling lunacy of some suggestions I encounter here- not, thank goodness, from most folk in this thread- still manages to amaze me!
I just don't think it will ever be as obscure as secret wars II. It will always be remembered- whether positively, or negatively.
We radically disagree now. I think Bendis and Millar are polar opposites. One is the most radical example of decompression, the other does mostly 3-issue arcs, one drags things out, the other is famed for afast pace, one is famed for exposition without fights, the other is famed for "mindless" action, one will rip apart any team at will to put his favourite characters on it, the other will use old, time-honoured characters will creating new ones, etc, etc, etc.
Hell, Millar's my favourite writer by a mile and I dislike much of Bendis' stuff.
I don't. I make long, reasoned arguments myself. You just seem to repeat the same points, or the points of others- but maybe that's just my imagination. But I like to think I argue back rather than just saying "You're haters." It seems we both feel the other side dismiss our long, reasoned arguments with some mere words!
So apparantly, you don't pay attention to my thoughts on Disassembled or House of M, or my expectations for World War Hulk. Apparantly Civil War now equates to "Every single Marvel event." Because it is the first major marvel crossover event I've GIVEN my Doom Seal of Approval to.
Except you just predicted wrong on quite a number of things.[/quote]
Oh no, that was a joke. Next to this forum though, I'm as biased as someone who has never touched a comic.
Nor would I. Jinxworld is biased. Millarworld is too, just not as biased as I expected it to be.
Well you'll be pleased to know that Millar plans for 2008 to be his last major year with Marvel anyay. I doubt very much that I will understand that, ever, but it's just a difference of opinions.
Oh terrible. Except that WOULDN'T happen. Because as of post civil war, you'd be imprisoned in a NORMAL prison, not a giant prison in another dimension. And you CAN retire. All you need to do is register and you have further choices:
(4) Retire- agree not to register and never use your powers (5) Be a hero and work as a hero. It's not like Tony Stark is gonna call you out on everything (6) Register and go back to a quiet life, but you can use your powers if you need to.
As I do you and I hope you are still aware even in our debates that I have nothing but the deepest respect for you.
Of course, and I can fully sympathise and you always express your views- even if I disagree with them- well.
Heh. I can't help but wonder if there isn't a group of fans who feel that EVERY new marvel administration means a "different marvel universe."
You may be right though. In the Marvel I grew up with, "quality" was a Holy Grail barely ever reached. My Marvel was a poor man's impersonation of yours.... which is maybe why I adore the new marvel of today, because it's ten thousand times worse than the marvel I grew up with- even if my marvel was pre- Heroes Reborn as well. Though no matter how much of the old days I red, I prefer today's, and maybe it is a "Had to be there" thing.
Regardless, I appreciate you all taking the time to respond.
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