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Post by imperiusrex on Oct 16, 2006 22:34:46 GMT -5
Is it just me or does it seem that most major heroes of color are on Cap's side? (not counting She-Hulk 'cause well, you know...) Traditionally most heroes of color are depicted as liberal, politically and it appears that most "minority" (for lack of a better term) super folk are following Cap's lead. I find this interesting because by that very method, you practically assure a certain segment of the audience will sympathize with certain characters. Just like many of the organizers behind the registration are the fuddy duddy group (Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, et al. are much more like fatherly 1960s type in comparison to hip hoppin' Luke Cage) having a sharp divide in race seems to give me an impression that youth and vitality and energy all oppose registration. Which does make a certain amount of sense-- however when you're trying to create a pair of viewpoints that have equal weight, it seems kind of unfair to have one viewpoint that looks like it would belong to your dad...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 16, 2006 23:44:33 GMT -5
A major exception would be the Heroes for Hire, who include some racial-minority persons such as their leader Misty Knight…but then, maybe they’re not “major” heroes. And Misty, while she backs registration, is not so gung-ho about it, preferring to play peacemaker with the heroes on the other side, if she must get involved with them at all. Regardless, it’s an interesting observation and analysis. On the youth angle, the Young Avengers, who have racial (and species) and sexual-orientation minorities among their members, have joined Cap’s rebel army. The Runaways (also mixed—even more so) are also opposed to registration, though they were staying out of the fight due to a mix of ignorance and insouciance. On the other hand, Araña, who is young and Latina, has signed on, though she was reluctant at first.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 17, 2006 10:48:57 GMT -5
Maybe Reginald Hudlin is scripting it?
[whisper]For those unaware, Reginald Hudlin is the hideous Black Panther writer who is absoloutely convinced that everything Storm and Panther ever do is partially due to the fact that they are black, and that in order to make them look awesome he must insult everything else in the Marvel Universe. He's also convinced Doom is a racist. [/whisper]
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Post by Engage on Oct 17, 2006 13:19:23 GMT -5
You forgot that Doom is apparently also a terrible scientist who uses methods discredited for decades. I'm still waiting for the explanation that that was a Doombot.
And is it sort of interesting that the 1960's Alpha Males have backed registration, although I guess that fits in with their 1960's attitudes.
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Post by imperiusrex on Oct 17, 2006 14:43:09 GMT -5
Maybe Reginald Hudlin is scripting it? [whisper]For those unaware, Reginald Hudlin is the hideous Black Panther writer who is absoloutely convinced that everything Storm and Panther ever do is partially due to the fact that they are black, and that in order to make them look awesome he must insult everything else in the Marvel Universe. He's also convinced Doom is a racist. [/color][/quote] I know you're making a joke, but there is something to the idea that I think marvel didn't want to put very many black/latino/GBLT characters on the pro side of a fundamentally wrong idea. (and by fundamentally wrong I mean the SHRA is about forced registration, which is generally anathemic to US liberal attitudes. is it necessary sometimes to put collective rights above individual freedoms even though those being affected haven't inherently done anything wrong? yes, but we are still uncomfortable, intellectually). And even as a black man myself, I rankle at some of the things Hudlin has done with Panther. I grimaced when he said the Wakandans had a cure for cancer in one of the early issues. That would make them among the most cruel beings on Earth to not share that with the rest of the modern world. I think Priest did some of that too, where they felt compelled to make panther just better than anybody. I personally liked him best when Panther was noble, smart and humble. If I were writing the book, he'd almost never talk, just so you'd never have any idea of what was going through his head. There are plenty of ways of making a character cool and smart without turning him into an ass or a rip off Batman. As to Doom, well, I don't see him as a racist as much as a supremacist. And in fairness, he thinks he's better than everybody from T'Challa to Reed Richards, so it's not arbitrary. I see him having the same attitude that his bloodline and his genius can't be matched by any on Earth. He's been called a misogynist too, and I think these are faults of certain writers who don't realize that Doom thinks everyone, man, woman, black, white is beneath him...
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 17, 2006 15:10:45 GMT -5
I think that's a good observation regarding people of color and which side they are on. My first thought when I was looking at the two sides was, it looks like the sides are divided between the haves and have nots, generally speaking. On the Pro side, we have a bunch of folks who are either rich (Stark, Wasp, the F4 in general), and/or well established, well connected heroes. Many of them had already publicly revealed their identities. The Anti side however, is made up of more "underground" heroes, people who are not on the big stage (with a few exceptions, like Cap). Isn't it interesting (and kind of sad) that so many heroes of color fall into that category? I have to applaud the fact that Marvel gave us the first black superhero, but we still don't have a black hero of major power in the MU.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 17, 2006 16:18:43 GMT -5
And wasn't the complaint about the 70's, when many black heroes/villains started to see print, that many of them had to be called "Black ..."??
Black Panther Black Lightning Black Goliath Black Manta Brother Voodoo (you get my meaning on this one) ... to name a few.
So should Ben Grimm be The Yiddish Thing or some such ethnic identifier??
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 17, 2006 16:38:07 GMT -5
You forgot that Doom is apparently also a terrible scientist who uses methods discredited for decades. I'm still waiting for the explanation that that was a Doombot. And is it sort of interesting that the 1960's Alpha Males have backed registration, although I guess that fits in with their 1960's attitudes. Bah! Doom forgot nothing! Doom simply chose not to impart that information That was an insult to Marvel's greatest villains, and if there's one subject Marvel-wise where I feel I can speak with great authority, it's Doctor freaking Doom! Key difference- Priest made Wakanda seem better than anybody. Hudlin does the same but feels a need to diminish other Marvel characters in order to do so. For example, the most recent Panther where Black Bolt respects the Panther more than any other human, apparantly. (Myself, I chalk it up in Hudlin's mind to him having 'Black' in the name.) As I said above, I feel I can speak on Doctor Doom, and I agree fully- the best way I heard it summarised was that Doom does not acknowledge as equals people who are not all of these: 1. Latverian 2. A King 3. Named Victor Von Doom Credit to whoever I saw say that! But he is still not a racist by any stretch of imagination- in fact I highly doubt he makes any major distinction between black people and anybody else. But the comic portrayed him as an out-and-out racist, convinced that black people were d**n, low, dirty, etc. It was completely out of character for Doom. And in the same issue of course, Panther and Storm remark that lots of Latverians are staring at them because they don't get black people in Latveria. Which is again a WTF moment? They couldn't be staring at them because they're STORM and the BLACK PANTHER- y'know, famous super-heroine and super hero/King of a major country? Now, to be fair, (And I don't mean to be racist when I write this) most black characters were originally created with the same basic background, making them 'distrustful of the law'- it was a product of the times. But it does fit into established continuity for these characters to be anti-reg. It's not a fault of Civil War, it's a fault of the time at which these characters were created. And in fairness, several black characters are beind built up more. THe Falcon was de facto leader of the Anti-reggers when Cap was out, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him on a New Avengers team- depending on whether or not Bendis likes him. The Panther has a pretty big role in the Marvel Universe. Storm is a very high profile black character, and Bishop's importance has also been rising in recent years. But yes, it is undoubtedly an issue with the industry in general.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 17, 2006 18:51:53 GMT -5
My first thought when I was looking at the two sides was, it looks like the sides are divided between the haves and have nots, generally speaking. On the Pro side, we have a bunch of folks who are either rich (Stark, Wasp, the F4 in general), and/or well established, well connected heroes. Many of them had already publicly revealed their identities. The Anti side however, is made up of more "underground" heroes, people who are not on the big stage (with a few exceptions, like Cap). Isn't it interesting (and kind of sad) that so many heroes of color fall into that category? I have to applaud the fact that Marvel gave us the first black superhero, but we still don't have a black hero of major power in the MU. This is an unfortunate legacy of race relations at the time the Marvel Universe was first developed. You can make a similar case for DC. Back in the Golden and Silver Ages, minority heroes were dangerous territory. If you tried putting them in comics intended for white boys and girls, you risked having your distribution collapse on you. There were similar problems with film and television distribution. There were channels for negro comics and films, but they were separate and unequal. (There were black characters “acceptable” for white audiences, but they were along the lines of manservants, miscellaneous jungle primitives, Little Black Sambo, etc.) Heck, in those days comics giants like Lee, Kirby, Schwartz, Siegel, and Shuster didn’t even create any Jewish heroes (did they?), and they themselves were Jewish! (The Thing, created by Lee and Kirby, is Jewish, but that tidbit was established only recently.) Many of the icons and stars of superhero comics date back to that period—and so, the Marvel Universe hero “establishment” tends not to be very ethnic. Today’s America is far more accepting of cultural diversity in its entertainment’s heroes in various media, and surely (for instance) Spider-Man would still be a cool character if he were black or Hispanic or Muslim or gay—but the fact is he isn’t those things. And it’s hard to add icons of equal stature to the existing pantheons.
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 20, 2006 13:07:59 GMT -5
I haven't been reading Black Panther, but from your comments and the few reviews I've read, I gather he is something of a jerk now. A shame, he was always a hero that seemed confident yet not arrogant, regal but not swaggering.
Influence-wise, he's probably the most important black character in the MU. But who is the most powerful black hero? I might have to say Storm. But I am still waiting for a black hero who can stand toe to toe with some of the heavyweights. Where is the black Thor or Iron Man or Wonder Man? Cage is tough, but no where near those guys.
As a woman I've been pleased to see women heroes grow more powerful (and not just be decoration and/or hostages), but it seem like the heroes of color have not quite gotten there yet.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 20, 2006 13:30:07 GMT -5
Had you been at the last Chicago Wizard Convention, tananile, you'd have had the chance to see, strutting his stuff among the mere mortals, a very regal, magnificent Black Thor... But, seriously folks, there was, sometime ago, in the actual MU, a black Iron Man, who even got to participate in my favorite Marvel "event" ever, "Secret Wars"... Jim Rhodes did replace the original IM for (I think) at least 2 years (perhaps more...?). Then he went on to become War Machine until he was returned to the ranks of civilians by the Powers That Be. Probably the most powerful african-american (or black) individual currently at the MU is a woman as well: Monica Rambeau... Too bad she's sufffered so many "identity crises", even more than her fellow Avenger Ms. Marvel/ Warbird... And, for the record, I LIKED the name Warbird... it had significance, since she had been an Air Force career woman and, on the other hand, Ms. Marvel seems too derivative from the good ol' Captain, not to mention (even if I'm doing it, anyway...) that the "Ms." bit seems a little dated these days...
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 20, 2006 13:58:27 GMT -5
But, seriously folks, there was, sometime ago, in the actual MU, a black Iron Man, who even got to participate in my favorite Marvel "event" ever, "Secret Wars"... Jim Rhodes did replace the original IM for (I think) at least 2 years (perhaps more...?). Then he went on to become War Machine until he was returned to the ranks of civilians by the Powers That Be. I thought of Rhodey too Ua2, but as you said, he's not in the armor any more. Also, he didn't create the armor, it was given to him. Somehow that lessens his cred a bit, unfortunately. I do think that Monica is pretty powerful, but she seems to be in semi-retirement.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 20, 2006 14:27:16 GMT -5
Let's take a look at DC. Cyborg, Black Lightning, Invisible Kid (sometimes -- depends on who's writing the Legion), isn't there a female character in Wonder Woman named Nubia or something like that?, Mr. Terrific, and...
Not much in the "really powerful" category there either.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 20, 2006 14:36:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see your point when it comes to Rhodey, tananile. On the other hand, not too long ago, I don't know if it was under Priest or Hudlin, the Black Panther had a confontation with IM & kicked his can (bad pun intended) 7 days till Sunday... T'Challa seemed to outthink Shellhead at every turn of the road during that episode(s). In my eyes, although I guess I can hardly be called impartial, as I'm a huge IM fan, whoever wrote that, be it Priest or Hudlin, made Tony look like a chump. To me, there's only 3 "good" guys smarter than Tony in the MU: Reed Richards, Bruce Banner & Hank Pym.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 20, 2006 15:01:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see your point when it comes to Rhodey, tananile. On the other hand, not too long ago, I don't know if it was under Priest or Hudlin, the Black Panther had a confontation with IM & kicked his can (bad pun intended) 7 days till Sunday... T'Challa seemed to outthink Shellhead at every turn of the road during that episode(s). In my eyes, although I guess I can hardly be called impartial, as I'm a huge IM fan, whoever wrote that, be it Priest or Hudlin, made Tony look like a chump. To me, there's only 3 "good" guys smarter than Tony in the MU: Reed Richards, Bruce Banner & Hank Pym. I was about to loudly protest until I saw "good" I can't judge on Bruce Banner since Hulk is just about the only major marvel title I've never read- I wouldn't have seen him as smarter than Tony, but as I said- I can't judge. Seriously, I can think of a few who'd come close. The Panther himself, while definitely below, wouldn't be too far off, nor I'd wager would Dr Hank McCoy. Magneto might be close, depending on his semi-regular shifts between good and evil, and Prof X is pretty smart.... But no, I can't think of anyone initially at least who is both 'good' and smarter than Tony besides the ones mentioned.
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 20, 2006 15:03:02 GMT -5
Let's take a look at DC. Cyborg, Black Lightning, Invisible Kid (sometimes -- depends on who's writing the Legion), isn't there a female character in Wonder Woman named Nubia or something like that?, Mr. Terrific, and... Not much in the "really powerful" category there either. Well, there's also John Stewart/Green Lantern, and we all know the Lanterns are a pretty tough bunch. The current Firestorm is also black, although I don't know much else about him. They also have Steel, who may be somewhat different after 52 - or even dead! - but he has been shown to be fairly powerful, and also scientifically skilled.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 20, 2006 15:29:32 GMT -5
Duh -- how could I forget John Stewart?!? Thanks for adding to the list (which as has been said, isn't as impressive as it should be).
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Post by imperiusrex on Oct 20, 2006 16:38:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see your point when it comes to Rhodey, tananile. On the other hand, not too long ago, I don't know if it was under Priest or Hudlin, the Black Panther had a confontation with IM & kicked his can (bad pun intended) 7 days till Sunday... T'Challa seemed to outthink Shellhead at every turn of the road during that episode(s). In my eyes, although I guess I can hardly be called impartial, as I'm a huge IM fan, whoever wrote that, be it Priest or Hudlin, made Tony look like a chump. To me, there's only 3 "good" guys smarter than Tony in the MU: Reed Richards, Bruce Banner & Hank Pym. I was about to loudly protest until I saw "good" I can't judge on Bruce Banner since Hulk is just about the only major marvel title I've never read- I wouldn't have seen him as smarter than Tony, but as I said- I can't judge. Seriously, I can think of a few who'd come close. The Panther himself, while definitely below, wouldn't be too far off, nor I'd wager would Dr Hank McCoy. Magneto might be close, depending on his semi-regular shifts between good and evil, and Prof X is pretty smart.... But no, I can't think of anyone initially at least who is both 'good' and smarter than Tony besides the ones mentioned. If you read the earliest appearances of the Panther in FF, Reed Richards definitely thinks the Panther is on his level. This was downplayed a bit in his later appearances, but the panther was in his earliest showcases, a polymath, just as Reed is. According to current marvel lore, Peter Parker is just as good as Hank Pym in biochem, but with the exception of webbing and the spider tracer, I've yet to see Pete whip up anything terribly impressive. I always wonder how smart Professor X is? Let's face it, while he doesn't necessarily have the application ability and creativity that a Reed Richards has, he can pluck a million ideas from the smartest people, making him a living think tank. And he does appear to have a genius level IQ, so he can interpret it and that in turn would lead to more ideas. While not an inventive genius, he's got access to the best and brightest minds at his whim, so who knows how smart he could be if he just applied himself... Oh and on black heroes and their power levels, I'm actually more concerned with their stature within the respective comic universe. Batman and Captain America are hardly powerhouses, yet their stature is unquestioned, their importance unrivaled. A character of that magnitude would mean a lot more to me than a black Superman type (like Icon from the Milestone universe...)
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Post by imperiusrex on Oct 20, 2006 16:44:27 GMT -5
Duh -- how could I forget John Stewart?!? Thanks for adding to the list (which as has been said, isn't as impressive as it should be). Well you could always use this reference so you won't get caught flatfooted again... www.blacksuperhero.com/there's actually tons not listed here in this thread, many of whom are quite powerful (Bishop, anyone...?)
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 20, 2006 18:35:51 GMT -5
Batman and Captain America are hardly powerhouses, yet their stature is unquestioned, their importance unrivaled. A character of that magnitude would mean a lot more to me than a black Superman type (like Icon from the Milestone universe...) True, true. Even the Falcon, who as a black man in the turbulent late 60's/early 70's made a nice, politically correct partner for Cap, has always been second fiddle. When in the Avengers he never shows leadership (where is the line between leadership and leadership ability? He is never portrayed as having either), nor is he ever really looked to for ideas, tactics, etc. While a longterm member of the Marvel hero community, he is definitely a second-stringer. Yes, T'Challa is the most prominent of Marvel's black heroes, but this chip on his shoulder these days makes him an unlikable character, and certainly serves to enhance in the minds of the white reader demographic the "angry black man" stereotype. Although they have tried to convince me for years how brilliant Peter Parker is, I am never shown. Don't you think, if he is as brilliant as Hank Pym, that he would have cured Curt Connors by now? Why doesn't Peter ever run to the labs at ESU when in a battle? Reed Richards constantly takes a leave to cook up some device for victory.
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Post by imperiusrex on Oct 20, 2006 19:46:10 GMT -5
Batman and Captain America are hardly powerhouses, yet their stature is unquestioned, their importance unrivaled. A character of that magnitude would mean a lot more to me than a black Superman type (like Icon from the Milestone universe...) True, true. Even the Falcon, who as a black man in the turbulent late 60's/early 70's made a nice, politically correct partner for Cap, has always been second fiddle. When in the Avengers he never shows leadership (where is the line between leadership and leadership ability? He is never portrayed as having either), nor is he ever really looked to for ideas, tactics, etc. While a longterm member of the Marvel hero community, he is definitely a second-stringer. Yes, T'Challa is the most prominent of Marvel's black heroes, but this chip on his shoulder these days makes him an unlikable character, and certainly serves to enhance in the minds of the white reader demographic the "angry black man" stereotype. Although they have tried to convince me for years how brilliant Peter Parker is, I am never shown. Don't you think, if he is as brilliant as Hank Pym, that he would have cured Curt Connors by now? Why doesn't Peter ever run to the labs at ESU when in a battle? Reed Richards constantly takes a leave to cook up some device for victory. Hank Pym has redefined physics. Mass and size are no longer a consideration in the marvel universe. He can shrink ten tons of metal, plastic and steel to fit in his pocket. He can make a human body grow to fifty feet without crushing under its own weight. The applications, scientifically, for Pym particles defy imagination. Subject a processed wheat field to Pym particles and shrink it down for transport. You could transport tons on a tricycle. You could've airlifted everyone out of Katrina's path by bringing transport planes in a small briefcase, all without a massive expenditure of energy like teleport.ation would take. No one else in the MU has made a discovery of that magnitude. People don't seem to get how amazing that is. It is the most amazing and accessible and powerful discovery in the Marvel Universe.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 20, 2006 19:53:57 GMT -5
It is my understanding that Peter has always been shown to have the POTENTIAL of, one day, become one of the most brilliant minds in the MU. Thinking about this & what imperiusrexmentioned earlier about an earlier portrait of the Panther as smarter made me think that maybe the whole bunch of 'em used to be portrayed as smarter than today... Anyone agreees with me on this? Peter, seems to me, used to use his brain more in the past to find scientific means of defeating enemies who were more powerful than himself... Banner used to be shown in the past more often as a creator or extraodinary devices, not just as a brilliant theoretical physician; Hank created such advanced, self-aware, mechanical creatures; Iron Man, in the early Avengers days used to wipe out dohickeys every bit as whacky as Reed's... and so on... Nowadays, the only "good" guy who is shown to be as brilliant as before, it seems, is Reed. If anyone agrees with me on this, why do you think this is so...? Could it be that, as we live more & more in the realm of what used to be "the future", on one hand we're more aware of science's limitations & therefore extremely whacky devices seem too ridiculous to us and, on the other, we're in awe over the REAL wonders of science, so it's a lot harder for writers these days to come up with new, amazing concepts...?
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 20, 2006 20:17:37 GMT -5
It is my understanding that Peter has always been shown to have the POTENTIAL of, one day, become one of the most brilliant minds in the MU. Thinking about this & what imperiusrexmentioned earlier about an earlier portrait of the Panther as smarter made me think that maybe the whole bunch of 'em used to be portrayed as smarter than today... Anyone agreees with me on this? Peter, seems to me, used to use his brain more in the past to find scientific means of defeating enemies who were more powerful than himself... Banner used to be shown in the past more often as a creator or extraodinary devices, not just as a brilliant theoretical physician; Hank created such advanced, self-aware, mechanical creatures; Iron Man, in the early Avengers days used to wipe out dohickeys every bit as whacky as Reed's... and so on... Nowadays, the only "good" guy who is shown to be as brilliant as before, it seems, is Reed. If anyone agrees with me on this, why do you think this is so...? Could it be that, as we live more & more in the realm of what used to be "the future", on one hand we're more aware of science's limitations & therefore extremely whacky devices seem too ridiculous to us and, on the other, we're in awe over the REAL wonders of science, so it's a lot harder for writers these days to come up with new, amazing concepts...? I think part of the explanation may be the difference between the 60's (when these characters were established) and now. Back then, we were in the heart of not only the Cold War, but its most visible extension, the Space Race. People were terrified that the Soviets would build orbiting missile platforms and rain death from the skies. Control of "the high ground of space" was a national imperative. Front and center in this battle were engineers and scientists. It was good old American know-how that was going to save us and the free world. Science was serving a higher purpose, and people had much more respect and admiration for scientists then. Today we are surrounded by the products of our technology - cell phones, computers, etc - but technology serves more for practicality and leisure activities. The makers of the IPod are not saving the world! Scientists are still doing great things that will benefit people but most of it is not out in the general public and certainly doesn't have the visibility the space program did. OK, I'll jump off my soap box now. You have to forgive me, I am a biologist so this is near and dear to my heart. One comment - why oh why did they have to kill off Bill Foster (Goliath), one of the few heroes of color who was also a scientist?!
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 20, 2006 23:08:37 GMT -5
I have liked Bill Foster since the days when he was Hank's asst. I personally had hoped for Avenger status for him after all of this mess. He would have filled the role that Hank and Clint filled, as well as being the resident scientist. He would have been accessible to this generation of fans, and a great bit of nostalgia for those of us who recall him from his pre-hero days as well as the groovy Black Goliath days!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 21, 2006 5:30:56 GMT -5
Batman and Captain America are hardly powerhouses, yet their stature is unquestioned, their importance unrivaled. A character of that magnitude would mean a lot more to me than a black Superman type (like Icon from the Milestone universe...) True, true. Even the Falcon, who as a black man in the turbulent late 60's/early 70's made a nice, politically correct partner for Cap, has always been second fiddle. When in the Avengers he never shows leadership (where is the line between leadership and leadership ability? He is never portrayed as having either), nor is he ever really looked to for ideas, tactics, etc. While a longterm member of the Marvel hero community, he is definitely a second-stringer. Yes, T'Challa is the most prominent of Marvel's black heroes, but this chip on his shoulder these days makes him an unlikable character, and certainly serves to enhance in the minds of the white reader demographic the "angry black man" stereotype. Although they have tried to convince me for years how brilliant Peter Parker is, I am never shown. Don't you think, if he is as brilliant as Hank Pym, that he would have cured Curt Connors by now? Why doesn't Peter ever run to the labs at ESU when in a battle? Reed Richards constantly takes a leave to cook up some device for victory. To be fair, Falcon appears to be virtual second-in-command of the Secret Avengers during the Civil War and as I said before, I wouldn't be surprised to find him a member of the New Avengers when this is all done. (Though I'm not sure I want that given bendis's portrayal of him in NA #21.) I'm not honestly sure that I've ever seen anything to give me the idea Peter was as brilliant as Hank Pym. After all, whereas Hank is a dedicated scientist, Peter just teaches high school science. As said above, I think he always had the POTENTIAL to achieve that greatness, but his responsibilities and duties as Spider-Man prevent him from achieving that.
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 21, 2006 14:10:53 GMT -5
Batman and Captain America are hardly powerhouses, yet their stature is unquestioned, their importance unrivaled. A character of that magnitude would mean a lot more to me than a black Superman type (like Icon from the Milestone universe...) First I have to say I am so glad I found you guys; this site is constantly interesting and entertaining, not to mention thought-provoking. This whole subject of minority heroes and their role(s) in comics is really fascinating. As a woman, I have some appreciation of what it feels like to be marginalized, although obviously it is a different experience than what many people of color face. This discussion here has led to some real-world discussions with my boyfriend, who is black, and when I brought up Rex's comments about Cap and Batman, he heartily agreed. Having a black hero, regardless of power level, who is looked upon as a pillar of the hero community, would be huge. I think it would also be very significant for youngsters to have that character around as they grow up. So what is preventing a minority hero from becoming a major hero in comics these days? Is there still enough prejudice out there that it can't work? Is it because the majority of creators are white and an effort is not being made to develop characters? Or is it like Phantom mentioned, that it is very hard for any newer characters to get on the level of these old 60's icons?
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 21, 2006 17:53:06 GMT -5
DC made a serious attempt in the early '90's with their minority-controlled imprint... Was it called Icon? Or was he the main hero? I was not interested in this DC splinter universe, nor Valiant, Image, or any other "universes" that came along in that period (including Shooter's New Universe at Marvel). So, perhaps whilst I was overcome with a slight sense of guilt as I began to type this (white guy didn't buy the "black" comics ), the larger issue may be tananile's last point that cracking the Silver Age universes of Marvel and DC might be the largest problem with consumers. To be honest, most of us would say that there are several notable black creators (Keith Pollard, Denys Cowan, Dwayne McDuffie to name a few), but certainly fewer notable black characters. And I thought of another "Black" name that fits with my complaint several posts above; this one ties into the Avengers, too! Do you remember Black Talon, the voodoo priest who raised Wonder Man from the dead in Avengers #151-52??
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Post by bobc on Oct 21, 2006 19:09:05 GMT -5
Why are black people always put in a separate category and fretted over by white people? I never saw the Falcon as "second fiddle" to CA because everybody is second fiddle to him. The Black Panther is and always has been my favorite Avenger, but now that he's being written to conform to phony American racial cliches, he's really lost something.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 21, 2006 22:07:59 GMT -5
I would say that the main obstacle for the Black Panther to really achieve the major position he so richly deserves among the main Marvel icons is his status as an "outsider"... All the other major icons at Marvel, I think, are good ol' americans... Okay, so Thor is not, but I think in his case there was a sort of assimilation or aculturation similar to what happened to Superman over at DC. On the other hand, T'Challa remains at heart a Wakandan king who doesn't even live in America, and I think this fact creates a type of "emotional distance" for many american readers, precluding for them a larger emotional investment on the Panther.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 22, 2006 3:18:32 GMT -5
There’s been a lot of interesting discussion in this thread! (I was afraid that my last post in this thread had killed the conversation, as my longish, serious posts seem to have a tendency to do!) As a woman I've been pleased to see women heroes grow more powerful (and not just be decoration and/or hostages), but it seem like the heroes of color have not quite gotten there yet. Several months ago, discussion in the “She-Avengers” thread turned to the very topic of Marvel superheroines becoming more powerful. I think this dynamic fits well into some of the thoughts advanced in the present discussion; contrary to the case with race, being of the traditionally disenfranchised gender is not a good indicator that a character will be on the anti-registration side. There are several females on both sides—and indeed, I think the pro-registration side actually wins in terms of having major super-women (Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Wasp…). (I call a draw in the Invisible Woman’s case…) In terms of my previous “pantheon” comment, some women do belong in the superhero establishment. Had you been at the last Chicago Wizard Convention, tananile, you'd have had the chance to see, strutting his stuff among the mere mortals, a very regal, magnificent Black Thor... Did he have long blond tresses? I do think that Monica is pretty powerful, but she seems to be in semi-retirement. She’s a member of Nextwave, which has its own series (albeit not for long). She was seen attending a “Secret Avengers” meeting in CW #4. One comment - why oh why did they have to kill off Bill Foster (Goliath), one of the few heroes of color who was also a scientist?! I’ve bemoaned Bill’s death before; I wasn’t looking at the scientist angle (good observation, though!) but rather at his status as a pioneering character (a black superhero prototype, in his original Avengers appearances). For that matter, I wasn’t too pleased with the death of his personality (Millar wrote his dialogue as though for a macho Samuel L. Jackson role). In my opinion, killing off Bill wasn’t necessarily a racist act, but I feel it does show a disrespect or ignorance of Marvel’s legacy. So far as I know, only one other death has occurred in the Civil War conflict. The other fatality was Bantam, a minor pro-registration hero who died in a one-on-one fight against another minor character called Thunderclap, in Civil War: Front Line #3. Bantam was Hispanic. Interesting that both fatalities have been racial minorities. In the real world, it has been observed since the Vietnam War that blacks and Hispanics (especially economic-lower-class members of these groups) have been doing a disproportionately great deal of the serving and dying in the US Army. Are Civil War’s death statistics an intentional reflection of that reality, just as other aspects of the storyline mirror realities of America at war? First I have to say I am so glad I found you guys; this site is constantly interesting and entertaining, not to mention thought-provoking. The feeling is mutual! Of course, then there’s the experience of being a woman of color…! Not just for blacks or other minorities. I think that, for example, Ben Sisko (the commanding officer on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, played by black actor Avery Brooks) has had a positive impression on many white persons as well. Such characters can reinforce or introduce the notion that minority individuals can be valuable people too, and furthermore they can serve as role models that transcend the barriers of race or other traditional divisions. Well, you know my answer. It is hard, but possible. Two post-’60s Marvel characters who have attained that icon status are Wolverine and the Punisher. Of course, they’re both white (the Punisher is Italian-American, and that is a white subgroup that has suffered an ample history of prejudice from other white Americans; Wolverine is Canadian, which I suppose makes him a minority in America, but I suspect that’s not an oppressed group that would be significant to this discussion). DC made a serious attempt in the early '90's with their minority-controlled imprint... Was it called Icon? Or was he the main hero? Icon was the Superman analogue within the Milestone imprint. Why are black people always put in a separate category and fretted over by white people? Your premise is false; as a white person, I can assure you that I do not always put black people in a separate category and fret over them. It is merely an occasional occurrence.
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