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Post by thew40 on Sept 20, 2006 14:24:44 GMT -5
Non-Spoilers: Pretty good. Same quality as we've seen with some interesting turns and twists. A few surprises, but they've all been pretty small. Spoilers: The Thor on the Pro-Reg side is a clone! I felt a little copped out, but I'm curious to see just what role this fake Thor will take in the overall series, so I'm trying not to judge it quite yet. I have to hand it to Millar and Marvel, though. A clone of Thor? Sounds waaaay silly, but it seems to work okay for now. The Cap/Iron Man confrontation is interesting. Goliath's dead. Who was this guy? Even though I didn't know him, his death was very much a shock to the Pro and Anti-Reg guys. It's either brought people to their cause of taken them away from it. Sue has left Reed . . . kinda. She and Johnny have left to join with Captain America, giving Reed an ultimatium: stop this or we're through. The New Thunderbolts?! A surprise here, but I'm interested. Having super-villians being recruited into the Pro-Reg side has been used in the Thunderbolts regular series, but we're seeing an off-shot of that group here. Also, I wanted to point out this interview: www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/WarRoom/04/CWroom04.html which should answer a lot of questions about this issue. I'll be getting a new read order up this afternoon/evening. ~W~
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Post by The Night Phantom on Sept 20, 2006 21:27:15 GMT -5
Uh…did they also clone Thor’s hammer?
Goliath was Bill Foster, formerly known as Black Goliath and Giant-Man. He’s an old-time Avengers supporting character, having debuted way back in Avengers #32. He was a Stark employee who became Hank Pym’s friend and assistant. He was sort-of a prototype of a black superhero, before Marvel introduced the Black Panther. Eventually he joined the super-ranks as Black Goliath in Power Man #24, before going on to star in his own short-lived eponymous series (just five issues). He eventually befriended the Thing, who suggested the monicker “Giant-Man” during the Pegasus Project saga in Marvel Two-in-One. He made the occasional appearance here and there (“Evolutionary War” comes to mind); but alas, Foster never reached Marvel stardom. Still, he had a long history and, as an early prominent black character, was of historical significance himself. When I couple Foster’s death with that of Hector Ayala (the White Tiger), I wonder at Marvel’s treatment of pioneering minority characters. Is Red Wolf next?
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Post by Tana Nile on Sept 21, 2006 0:26:35 GMT -5
Actually, I was relieved he was a clone. I just couldn't see the real Thor behaving like that. And since Thor is coming back, how will he feel about his good friends making a clone of him? Could be some very interesting stories right there. Boy, I would not want to be in Stark's or Richard's shoes: they'll have both Thor and the Hulk ticked at them!
I was sad to see Goliath die. I remember those old Marvel Two in One's with Project Pegasus, and Ben Grimm suggesting the name change.
It was good to see Sue Richards take a stand - basically halting the fighting all on her lonesome. When you think about it, she's been a superhero longer than most of the people there. She should command some respect. Her leaving Reed is not unexpected; I just wonder how long of a separation it will really be.
Did anyone else feel like cheering when Hercules knocked Iron Man on his ass?
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Post by Doctor Bong on Sept 21, 2006 1:42:38 GMT -5
There already was a Thor clone, created by the High Evolutionary his name was (is...?) Nobilus, though he was a brunette. But the Night Phantom raises an excellent question: since Thor's weather powers come from the enchantments bestowed on Mjollnir by Odin, how could the clone replicate them...? Unless they use the cope-out of some new type of Stark weather-controlling technology...
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Post by Shiryu on Sept 21, 2006 6:02:26 GMT -5
I'm quite relieved about that ! The idea is silly, but in the end that's not our Thor. And I'm looking forward for the real deal to be back and see this copycat. PS, we owe an apology to Doom, who was the first to figure out this Thor could not have been the real Thor
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 21, 2006 11:30:35 GMT -5
Well, my personal in-depth review: An issue of two halves HALF 1: Fantastic. Simply fantastic. Thor KICKED ass in an extremely major way. He ripped through the anti-reggers- exactly as he should have done, really. Great Iron man/Cap dialogue, and nice trick by Iron man. Then the Hercules wrath- again, great. A big fight-back, and things ar elooking pretty.... GOOD GOD! He literally BLOWS A HOLE through Goliath. I mean, I had predicted Goliath, but in-issue I was convinced it was Hercules. What I loved was that this was a B or C lister death, yet it MATTERED. It really seemed to matter. Everyone stunned... they try to run..... Thor readies to strike.... Sue's betrayal was handled phenomenally. Really, she looked INCREDIBLY badass. This section was great, right until they vanished. Then it all began to go wrong- shutting down Thor? HMMM.... still, they all look in horror on the body, the Watcher is seen.... HALF ONE: 9.5/10. Maybe even 10. Simply superb. HALF TWO: Hank's reaction- GREAT!. Whatever they're doing to Thor- Uh.... what? Also loved the way Peter still has a little optimism about their cause. Then it all goes to Hell. A CLONE? Good God Marvel... a CLONE? I mean, the one aspect I HATE about Marvel, and they bring it into Civil War. I despise cloning! I knew there was something up.... but still, I never thought... a CLONE? My bet was a radical mind-change, the Sentry, or brainwashing. Gotta admit, cloning is a little more ethical than brain washing, but.... Nice to see the scale of the war increasing- is that Triathlon and Firestar in the background of Cap's HQ? I thought Firestar quit? Why the hell is Nighthawk here when he was never at the battle!? Is that Justice? Anyway, this scene is alright. I thought Cap was too cold, not upset enough about Goliath's death and the new Thor. I did like the idea that some people were leaving Cap- the Stature part was well written. Masked man? Punisher? The funeral: Inbteresting. Some very nice dialogue here in general, especially the exchange between Miriam Sharpe and Tony Stark. It really buoyed me up as well as Tony. Ah now; the letter. Fantastically written. While he may be making Reed a little colder than I'm used to.... still great. I also liked her referencing past cries for attention, and leaving the kids for Reed. Did we really need the reference to love making? Nice idea with the umbrellas, very well written dialgue. And poor Ben... my heart just broke. Final scene: They are worried about losing guys: Well, I like that, makes sense. The scale of the war is clearly radically increasing. New Thunderbolts? Disappointing to say the least, given the old ones WEREN'T DEAD. Villains? Hmm.... Last page was disappointing. Not really a cliffhanger- might have been better if we didn't know the CW5 solicit or cover. Also, the villains chosen were.... random? Venom- Sure, great. Bullseye- yup. Songbird- ...ok. But the others? Deathstrike, jack 'O lantern... these guys are B-list or C-list! 7.5/10, maybe 8. So in conclusion; great first half, disappointing second half, some great ideas but THEY BROUGHT IN FREAKING CLONING! Felt like they copped out on Thor. FINALE: Yup. I told you guys Marvel would have a good excuse for Thor But no, the cynicism took over. So, I'm waiting for all the people who talked about how OOC this was of Thor to come out and say how this was a sell-out.
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Post by Tana Nile on Sept 21, 2006 12:37:04 GMT -5
regarding the hammer, there is a small picture in one panel (when they are "fixing" the clone Thor) that clearly shows the hammer with a panel open on the side and circuitry inside.
As far as Cap's demeanor, my assumption is that as this situation really becomes a war, he is getting a bit harder and shutting off some of his emotions as a way to get through the thing.
The question for the long term is, have Stark and Richards done so many morally questionable things now that the rest of the hero community will never truly trust them again? Then again, we have already seen Iron Man will be in Mighty Avengers...unless that is not Stark...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 21, 2006 13:04:49 GMT -5
Honest to God, I flet it was a great issue ruined by the Clone connection.
Still, I don't think Tony's anywhere near as bad as some people claim.
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Post by imperiusrex on Sept 21, 2006 14:11:57 GMT -5
ever see star trek 5? I think that's the one where Kirk asks "why does God need a spaceship?" I'm going somewhere with this... If the government's side can recreate the arguably most powerful superhero on Earth then why a registration act? why any of this at all? You could have an army of Thors at your disposal, no one, not galactus, not the celestials, no one short of eternity himself could fight an army of thunder gods, even with just 70% of the true Thor's ability. And realistically the first thing an army does (or at least someone with stark's military background) is test a weapon and make more if it works. Thor would not have been sent into the field unless they knew he was functioning, which means they've got more than the one prototype. i'll ignore the fact that unlike say the Hulk, Thor is a supernatural being having gained his abilities from the union of Gaea and Odin, to be a wholly unique and unnaturally powerful hero. If only the all father had had some test tubes...(what about Nobilus? Yeah well I'm willing to grant the High Evolutionary who has been shown to be about 50,000 years ahead of us, has got a slightly more advanced system of cloning-although note that even he couldn't cleanse Nobilus of the beserker strain Loki imbued within him). the idea is just annoying and makes me dislike this series even more. Didn't think it was possible, but sadly whatever low marvel sinks to, they always find the dank dirty cellar underneath it. someone remarked on another site that with this issue the series didn't jump the shark, it jumped over seaworld. i'm inclined to agree.
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Post by Engage on Sept 21, 2006 17:08:27 GMT -5
I liked it. The parts with the FF were great and I sort of like the flawed clone. As far as concerns above, with the possibility of an army of Thors, I think that in a comic book that sort of thing is fine. You just suspend disbelief and keep going because its not like half of anything in comics makes sense if you stop and think about it. This issue is going to be the turning point and now things are going to start to turn on their heads in the typical Marvel fashion.
Good stuff.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Sept 21, 2006 17:21:08 GMT -5
Doom, who was the first to figure out this Thor could not have been the real Thor Are you sure he was the first?
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Post by Shiryu on Sept 21, 2006 17:43:46 GMT -5
I though she was one of the good ones, possibly even destined to become an Avenger
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Post by imperiusrex on Sept 21, 2006 19:29:19 GMT -5
I liked it. The parts with the FF were great and I sort of like the flawed clone. As far as concerns above, with the possibility of an army of Thors, I think that in a comic book that sort of thing is fine. You just suspend disbelief and keep going because its not like half of anything in comics makes sense if you stop and think about it. This issue is going to be the turning point and now things are going to start to turn on their heads in the typical Marvel fashion. Good stuff. I'm glad you're enjoying it. It's obviously not my cup of tea. However let me clear up one thing. I'm the first to say that anything can happen in comics. In fact I bemoan the ordinary; but by the same token, this looks like shock value and "won't this be cool" without understanding the ramifications. Ever seen any of a dozen issues of Iron Man where Shellhead recruits several more people to wear the armor only to have it cut down to maybe one or two people by the end. why? because most of those writers understand that by adding too much power you make most threats irrelevant. So if you can now pull Thor out of your butt anytime you need him with a one, then why worry? Sure he'll fall in battle, but just make a new one. Next time Nefaria comes along, why can't Tony and Hank just clone five Thors? You make the character less special and mostly irrelevant when you make him essentially replaceable. the fact that they're not going to do it over and over again, doesn't make it any less silly, in fact, it makes it even sillier to me. if you can have the most powerful immortal at your beck and call, people would obviously do it... oh and of course there's always the possibilty that this "Punisher Thor" will catch on and next thing you know we've got a darker gritter Thunder Lord...I dunno, just makes me groan.
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Post by thew40 on Sept 21, 2006 20:07:32 GMT -5
oh and of course there's always the possibilty that this "Punisher Thor" will catch on and next thing you know we've got a darker gritter Thunder Lord...I dunno, just makes me groan. Heh. "Punisthor." I still like Newsaram's "Clor." ~W~
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Post by imperiusrex on Sept 22, 2006 0:54:11 GMT -5
oh and of course there's always the possibilty that this "Punisher Thor" will catch on and next thing you know we've got a darker gritter Thunder Lord...I dunno, just makes me groan. Heh. "Punisthor." I still like Newsaram's "Clor." ~W~ it would all be much funnier if ares wasn't joining the new avengers. however I easily see "Punishthor" sticking around the nuAvengers to give them some edge...
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Post by Shiryu on Sept 22, 2006 10:31:41 GMT -5
I've read it yesterday, and I think it was ok overall. By far not the best issue I've ever had, but not bad either. The thing that I liked the least was Hank saying that Tony had Thor's hair ever since the first Avengers meeting. Once again this sounds like a retcon, making Tony look as if he had always been ready to turn on his friends, not to mention that, as others said, if he could clone the Thunder God, why didn't he do so earlier ?
Besides that, and Nighthawk defining Cap "another old man", I enjoyed it, specially Sue's decision (why didn't anyone say anything when she helped Cap's group to escape ?) and Peter's growing doubts. Also, the heroes that were captured are probably those who Cap frees in Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four.
Black Goliath's death was nice as a symbol, even though I didn't care much for the character
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 22, 2006 11:04:05 GMT -5
Doom, who was the first to figure out this Thor could not have been the real Thor Are you sure he was the first? Ah, sorry. I think what he means is that I was arguing constantly that people shouldn't just assume it was the real Thor and there was no logical explanation, and I argued consistently that folk should have more faith in Marvel then they do. I assume it's the fact that I was arguing persistently which is referred to.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Sept 22, 2006 19:34:10 GMT -5
Granted & duly noted, Doctor Doom, but I seem to recall most of us qualified our objections, arguing it was a case of poor charcterization IF it was indeed the true Thor. I agree with shiryu's objection to the retcon of Tony possessing Thor's DNA since the beginning... why the heck, then, didn't he use it before, when Cap & him were trying to stop the last lord of Asgard from meddling in human affairs...?
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Post by Doctor Bong on Sept 22, 2006 19:36:15 GMT -5
I mean when he fought Thor wearing that Destroyer-like armor empowered by an asgardian mystical shard...?
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Post by balok on Sept 22, 2006 19:51:47 GMT -5
I very much disliked this issue. The entire concept of cloning Thor... didn't these people learn from the Spider-Man clone debacle? It fails on so many levels, not the least of which being that a clone wouldn't automatically gain Thor's magical powers or the use of his hammer, or, or... argh!
I already suspected I wouldn't like the end of Civil War or the new face of the Marvel Universe. Now I'm questioning whether it's worth even purchasing their books anymore, if this is the kind of story they're going to tell. I have never, in more than two decades of collecting, questioned whether it was time to abandon an entire company's books... until now. This book and this event are designed to appeal to those who like to see characters die and who revel in pointless violence. Who care little for the long established history and continuity of the characters as long as they do something "kewl."
YMMV.
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Post by thew40 on Sept 22, 2006 22:09:46 GMT -5
This book and this event are designed to appeal to those who like to see characters die and who revel in pointless violence. I disagree. I think it appeals to people that are looking for change in the Marvel Universe. I think it appeals to people that are interested in seeing their favorite characters interact in realistic situations. I think it's a story that more about real-life ideas and impacts rather than more sci-fi. Goliath's death had an impact. It served a purpose in the overall story. And let's be honest? When was the last time you saw or cared about Goliath? I'm not one for shoot-them-up pointless violent stories and I'm certainly enjoying this story. I'm liking it because it's a smart comic. It actually has thought behind it and makes me think. ~W~
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Post by Doctor Bong on Sept 23, 2006 1:49:32 GMT -5
I've been asking myself the same questions that you have, Balok; unfortunately, as tough to swallow as the concept may be for us, perhaps we simply aren't in touch with the prevailing tastes of the times... Well, universes are born and universes eventually die... maybe not even fictional universes are exempt from this law... maybe, I reckon, as sad as it may be for some of us, the time has simply come for the ol', familiar universe birthed by Lee, Kirby & Co. to simply become extinct and to be replaced by something more in touch with the present.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Sept 23, 2006 8:15:11 GMT -5
I think it's a story that more about real-life ideas and impacts rather than more sci-fi. Maybe you should be reading/viewing better sci-fi, which is about real-life ideas and impacts. …Such as showing that Marvel doesn’t care enough about its pioneering minority characters to keep them around and develop them, or at least to give them a ceremonious sendoff… That might have been Thing #1.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 23, 2006 8:38:20 GMT -5
Yawn. Goliath was, to be blunt, not a good character anymore. He was rarely used, and used badly when he was. He was not killed because he was black, or a minority, or any of that stuff, which is frankly rubbish. Goliath has most likely never been as well known as he is now, ironically.
His death was given impact. This has re-affirmed my faith in Millar. Anyone could take Captain America's death and make it meaningful. To do that with Goliath is much harder. But the point of the death in CW4 wasn't that GOLIATH died, as it would be with Cap, Iron Man, Yellowjacket etc. It was that a HERO died. That's what counts, and that was played wonderfully.
I'm with thew40 on this one.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Sept 23, 2006 11:21:10 GMT -5
He was not killed because he was black, or a minority, or any of that stuff, which is frankly rubbish. Well, I’m glad you settled your own straw-man argument. Neither I nor anyone else here claimed Goliath was killed off because he was black or a minority. I did raise the concern that Marvel is failing to respect its legacy of pioneering minority characters such as Bill Foster and Hector Ayala. But why not resort to misrepresentation? After all, “it works in arguments like these”… Bill Foster was not, in my opinion, a great character, but he was an important one in Marvel’s history, and I feel the sendoff lacked the proper respect. Perhaps this oversight will be rectified in time…but my reaction to Civil War #4 is that it was at best a fumble.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 23, 2006 12:46:15 GMT -5
Firstly, Phantom, you don't know hoe to let a tiny thing go, do you? Secondly, I never for a second claimed that you WERE saying he died for those reasons. It has been said on other sites, like CBR. I'm afraid this is MISINTERPRETATION, not misrepresentation.
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Post by balok on Sept 23, 2006 13:44:27 GMT -5
It wasn't Goliath's death that bothered me nearly so much as bringing Thor back this way. It's beyond absurd and it suggests to me a total disdain for the character and the traditions of the stories in which that character has appeared. I believe Iron Man and Mister Fantastic are both being written out of character and Spider-Man is the most out of character of all (that comment, obviously, refers to more than just this issue).
I guess I just can't see any way this will end well for Marvel. Even if registration is eventually rolled back for one reason or another, it would be impossible for anyone in the heroic community to trust either Iron Man or Mr. Fantastic again. They are betrayers.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Sept 23, 2006 15:56:38 GMT -5
The blatant ethnocentrism of your argument—in an article that pretends to scholarship in world cultures and history, no less—is disappointing, to say the least. Yes, there are differences between our cultures; but your portrait of the Other as almost irreconcilably alien is not just fatalistic, but it’s wrong. The fact is, the tribalistic streak you describe does exist in our culture (not just in fictive mobsters). The price of democracy is eternal vigilance, and we battle that tribalism every day. I hope my rebuttal hasn’t confused or upset AA! readers; I was merely responding to an opinion piece on another Web site. I suppose I shouldn’t worry about your interpretations, though—after all, integrity in communications is such a tiny thing. I'm not one for shoot-them-up pointless violent stories and I'm certainly enjoying this story. I'm liking it because it's a smart comic. It actually has thought behind it and makes me think. I’ve been thinking about this comment of W’s. I’ve been skeptical of and disappointed by Civil War, and maybe W’s offered the key. Maybe the story is a smart, well-plotted one…but not necessarily for these characters. I find the premises of a superpower-registration act and a superhero civil war interesting, but I don’t care for a lot of the characterizations, simply because they don’t gel with my understanding of the characters’ portrayals over the decades. Maybe Civil War is an Ultimate Universe story (I think one of you may have suggested this elsewhere) or an ad hoc universe story that’s simply been miscast.
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Post by spiderwasp on Sept 23, 2006 21:35:48 GMT -5
I liked this issue a lot. I actually like the direction Civil War is taking. The MU needed to be shaken after the last big shake up was a disaster (IMO) - namely dissassmbled and New Avengers. I do get a little confused by continuity however. Already in FF, the Thing pulled out and announced he was leaving the country. I guess that happened after this issue since he was still around, so why was it told before the departure of Sue and Johnny? I knew someone was going to die and figured it would be Goliath. Although I agree with other people that the death and it's impact were handled well,I still didn't like the predictability. I thought from the beginning that it seemed odd to have pulled this character out of obscurity and then have him be one of the leaders in Cap's team. It seemed obvious that they needed to establish someone as a major Civil War character and then have him killed but didn't want it to be someone too important.
On a slightly different subject, I am looking forward to the upcoming "Choosing Sides" one-shot that shows Civil War's impact on characters we haven't seen yet, including Howard the Duck but I have to wonder where Power Pack is in all this. It seems to me that they would be especially impacted by the registration since their parents no longer know about their powers, but Reed Richards does so they should clearly be outed. It has been firmly stated that there are no lower age restrictions. Would anyone else besides me be interested in seeing this addressed?
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Post by thew40 on Sept 23, 2006 21:55:12 GMT -5
I liked this issue a lot. I actually like the direction Civil War is taking. The MU needed to be shaken after the last big shake up was a disaster (IMO) - namely dissassmbled and New Avengers. I do get a little confused by continuity however. Already in FF, the Thing pulled out and announced he was leaving the country. I guess that happened after this issue since he was still around, so why was it told before the departure of Sue and Johnny? The simple reason is that "Civil War" was delayed, but because that particular issue of FF did not spoil the events of "Civil War" # 4, it was released before hand. But yes, it does take place after "Civil War" # 4. For more info on continunity, check on the "Civil War Read Order" thread: vplexico.proboards60.com/index.cgi?board=civilwar&action=display&thread=1153952008&page=1~W~
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