steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Jul 27, 2006 21:34:15 GMT -5
OK Here we go.
Is there anyone out there among us who doesn't think that this whole "Civil War" thing isn't a plot conceived by some lame Marvel villian to destroy the Marvel Universe as we know it?
My vote for "villian behind the curtain" is....
THE HATE -MONGER!!!
Or Animus as we know him now. Boy this would explain so much.
Think about it. The last time I remember this "guy" showing up was in Avengers #341 which guest starred The New Warriors!! ( que ominous music).
Think about it. It's perfect. Iron-Man and Reed are acting sooooooo out of character that someone must be controlling their minds. What the heck is going on with Reed Richards? Why is he so wrapped up with this pseudo-technolgy that he doesn't care what is happening with Johnny?
Why did Tony have to swear Peter to an oath of alliance that would exclude Cap? Why would Peter agree to this? Why did Tony fake an attack on himself to "seal the deal" with Spider-Man?
I'll give you that bad writing is bad writing but you gotta believe there is more than "Brian Michael Bendis" bad writing and charatorization happening here. There has to be some "Marvel" reason for this unconscievable story line to happen.
When did Reed get so stupid. Why are all the "science guys" (Iron Man, Spider-Man and Reed) team up against the "Heart and Soul" guys (Cap and Falcon and Herc and DD)?
I think Animus has a big grudge against the Warriors, The Avengers and Cap. I think this is a perfect way for Marvel to shake things up for a little while.
I think Bendis can't wait to write the 1st Avengers/Secret Avengers Annual wheren Tony and Steve finally resolve their differences.
I think we're all being played.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 27, 2006 23:42:18 GMT -5
OK Here we go. Is there anyone out there among us who doesn't think that this whole "Civil War" thing isn't a plot conceived by some lame Marvel villian to destroy the Marvel Universe as we know it? My vote for "villian behind the curtain" is.... THE HATE -MONGER!!! While I wouldn't put it past Marvel to do that, during a lot of the mainstream interviews, Joe Q has made a strong point to say that there is no villian behind the curtain. I can't honestly belive that he would pull that sorta deception when dealing with the mainstream media. Newsarama, Wizard, and Comic Book Resources? Sure. But the New York Times and other venues? Nope. While I do believe there is more than meets the eye, I think also that what happened in Stamford forced the characters to change. Richards is pouring himself into his work (which is nothing new) because he's afraid of what will happen if he can't help. Remember, he's a father too. He can probably relate to what happened with the parents at Stamford and all his paranoia that bubbles under the surface regarding his children's safety has just come bursting outward in an intense amount of work. It's not that he doesn't care about Johnny, it's just that his first priority is that no one loses any more children. As for Tony . . . I honestly feel as though Tony think this is the best for super-heroes. Like Reed, Stamford has changed his position and his outlook on super-heroes as a whole. I really feel like Iron Man is becoming a very powerful force in the Marvel Universe. In a world that has been dominated by whatever is happening with the X-Men this month, it's great to see Iron Man finally standing up into the spotlight and bringing about changes to the Marvel Universe. To a lot of people, Tony has been placed into the "recovering alcholic" category for years. Despite the changes made to him, that's been his stereotype. But now . . . now, we're seeing Tony as a force to be reckoned with. Smart, powerful, and even still willing to talk Cap down (as seen in "Civil War" # 3). More than anything, though, Tony is doing what he feels best to help his comrades as well as the citizens. I think that there is more to this than meets the eye. I'm not sure if Tony really trusts Peter, to be honest. Peter is probably the guy who has had the most to lose and could very easily hop the fence. I'm sure that Tony sees this and was hoping to "seal the deal" with the oath. Actually, I'd say this is the most realistic and smartest storyline to happen within Marvel in the past . . . ever. Seriously. There's actual thought and emotion being portrayed here. It's not so much about heroes fighting heroes as it about ideals being challenged. Looking at the broad picture, the actual "Civil War" mini-series is about the main characters and the core of the fight, but the tie-ins is where you'll get into the character's heads, understand what it's like to be in their situation and their reasons for chosing their side. I really don't think Reed is coming off as stupid. Good point about the science versus "heart and soul" guys, though. I'm a little confused here. No offensive, but you mentioned that the story was bad and inconcieveble . . . but then you say it's the "perfect way to shake things up?" Are you saying you like it? Don't like it? Think it's good? Bad? I guess we'll just see. ~W~
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 28, 2006 4:12:47 GMT -5
Well firstly I believe this is one of the best ideas for a storyline to ever come out of Marvel, second I think it's the best crossover they've ever done and third I think it is being executed brilliantly and everyone is acting perfectly in character.
There's really very little I can say to supplement the EXCELLENT answer above me but I notice you manage to pin all the blame for what you (wrongly, IMO) percieve as problems for this on Brian Michael Bendis. People talk about bendis's cult fanboys- I think he has just as many blind cult haters who aren't willing to give anything he does a chance. And this isn't even anything to do with him! He's only writing one series!
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Post by imperiusrex on Jul 28, 2006 11:16:46 GMT -5
well, the fact that it is the most realistic series marvel has ever done is precisely the problem I have with it. honestly what government could allow any superhero with a power level higher than bucky to have any sense of autonomy? daredevil? he could be within a block of the white house and hear national secrets. no telepath could possibly not be strict govt. supervision. missile launch codes for the entire US arsenal would be just one second away. and there wouldn't be a squad of capekillers; there would be a black ops psi shielded sniper squad who would kill heroes and villains from far away and just make the bodies disappear. and this talk of responsibility and concern over what heroes do; well wouldn't reed richards want to do something about the fact that he opened up the negative zone and we've been invaded a dozen times because of it. reed has yet to solve the problem of galactus who in his own way is a billion times more of a problem that reed chose to take responsibility for when he saved galactus. given marvel time being what it is, he comes about every six months looking for a meal; that's more urgent to me, personally. there's a lot of other stuff that seems so much more pressing (earth has been invaded by aliens conservatively 2,659 times and boy we're lucky nobody got hurt...sigh) I sigh because the idea that this is the first time that something horrible has happened is completely ridiculous. Annilihus covered the city in a null field; nobody died in panic or inability to reach locations? doom ripped the baxter building up into space; no debris fell, at all? namor had a giant ten story walking whale trod through midtown, and thousands weren't killed in the ensuing panic? dormmammu unleashed hell on earth and no one got hurt by a single demon? without exaggeration i could do this continually for the next two years without running out of stories where hundreds, thousands maybe millions of innocents should have died. and not once has anyone ever said, "hey maybe we should start killing these supervillains" or "gee we should really have a space defense so the kree/skrull/ sh'iar/aakon/stone men from saturn/z'nox/badoon/mercurians/etc. don't blow up our entire planet next time they show up." y'see to me, comics are like a painting. you look from far away and all the elements come together. the brush strokes, the technique, the colors, the composition. get too close and you see the elements broken down and they lose a bit of their magic. comics are ridiculous. everything about them is ridiculous. tony stark's armor is ridiculous-you can't have two palm sized jets on the bottom of a boot and have any real thrust, and you certainly wouldn't be able to achieve supersonic speeds with them. human torch can't breathe- he would burn oxygen before it ever got to his mouth. getting realistic with characters who can't exist seems silly and a waste of a great medium. for example you can't have a love triangle on rescue me or the shield (which are shows that bendis and others like to quote as some of their inspiration for the grit and realism) where one is a mutant, the other is a man brought back from the dead and the third is a synthezoid with the dead man's brain patterns. But you can have that story in superhero comics. And it can be great. why waste that ability to be impossible and instead do these mundane overly grounded in reality tales that don't work if you put two seconds of thought into it? that's not to say you can't do real issues. starman by robinson explored family dynamics like no other book I've ever read, but he did it with a sense of wonder and realization of the art form that was beautiful. civil war is a drama where the characters just happen to have superpowers, but you could easily take away the powers and just have a society of rogue "vigilantes" and a terrorist nicknamed nitro who set off a bomb in a residential neighborhood when he was chased and pretty much tell the same story. that's hardly using the medium, to me.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 28, 2006 21:20:53 GMT -5
imperiusrex:
I think it's possible for comics to be both fantastic and realistic at the same time. Ultimately, I believe it comes down to where the limits of realism ends and also, just what kind of "rules" exist in this universe.
In the acclaimed Robert McKee's "Story," he discusses that each story establishes its own set of laws within its own universe. Perhaps for the MU, it can be both fantastic and realistic.
Also, it should be pointed out that the people of NYC expect a super-hero/super-villain/alien creature/whatever attack. To the NYC denziens of the MU, they ficitional citizens are aware that they live and work in a super-hero battleground.
Not the residents of Stamford, Ct. They probably figured that was the last place they would see a battle was in front of the school. And yet here are the New Warriors, saying they're doing this battle for ratings and money and bringing their battle to suberbia.
Hence the reaction and the anti-super-hero resentment.
~W~
~W~
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Post by imperiusrex on Jul 28, 2006 23:37:35 GMT -5
yeahhhh, but I mean Galactus is about to destroy the entire world. it doesn't hit home more than that. that's the entire planet in one fell swoop. Im not old enough to remember the bay of pigs but my mom does and it was according to her the most terrifying moment even more than 9/11 because the missiles were close to launch and everywhere would've gotten it (don't forget for the first several hours we didn't know what had actually happened with the towers whereas bay of pigs the president was essentially saying we're real close to armageddon). Look at marvels when busiek touches on the galactus thing and the way people react to it; it's much closer to what would likely happen. Plus I live in westchester which isn' t that far removed from NYC and can tell you anything that effects New York City affects us as well. Transit strike, snow, etc. Connecticut also isn't that far and several hundred thousand commute back and forth from manhattan (less than two hours by train) every day. Many of them would have first hand experience seeing superhero battles. As far as the Warriors tv exposure, I still maintain that was the most contrived bit of scripting I've ever seen. Look at Namorita in New warriors #1 when she's fighting Terrax and takes great pain to lure him away from any residential area and civilians. I would love to get Fabian Nicieza on the board and ask him if the namorita he wrote for several years was that kind of careless that she'd punch a human bomb into the middle of a school zone. Plus Iron Man's old SI plant was on Long Island, another area very much like Connecticut, a well to do suburban area, and they had any number of world beaters there. I think there's a place for some aspects of realism in stories (temporality, emotion, conflict, life death are the basis for storytelling) but the ones that bring the stories to the mundane aren't the ones I appreciate. I remember when Bill Loebs was writing the flash and there was a story where the rogues were wondering why with all their great powers they didn't just take over the world and they surmised that the flash preoccupied them. they were so busy trying to prove they could rob a bank under his nose that they never even bothered to try to be kings and rulers. and that in a weird way is what a good comic does for me. it can be so out there, so ridiculous, and explore the medium in all these great wild ways, and if it engages me, I'll never wonder why superman can lift a building by grabbing the corner. but when the stories become about these fine technical details, bogged down in law and the phsyics and mathematics of it all (i.e. the speedball incarceration, the reed theory on superhuman activity), it takes away the magic a bit and I start to see other little cracks and soon the story is just about lost for me.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jul 29, 2006 15:25:25 GMT -5
Well firstly I believe this is one of the best ideas for a storyline to ever come out of Marvel, second I think it's the best crossover they've ever done and third I think it is being executed brilliantly and everyone is acting perfectly in character. One vote for nomination as Most unintentionally funny post of the month.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 30, 2006 3:31:58 GMT -5
Let me guess, someone else who thinks they are all acting totally out of character? Well it's each to his own, based on my own views of the characters I've read about for so many years, I can see Reed, Tony etc doing exactly what they have done here. Please, cite me some examples of 'radical out of character' behaviour everyone complains about.
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Post by redstatecap on Jul 30, 2006 8:47:33 GMT -5
OK, how about Cap lambasting the American people as cattle and wallowing in an orgy of self-pity and politically-motivated tripe?
RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 30, 2006 13:33:04 GMT -5
That's Bendis, we can't count that as Civil War's fault, just... Bendis's
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Jul 31, 2006 12:53:23 GMT -5
How about Reed in Wakanda admiring the technology when the Panther asks him about Johnny and Reed's reply is something like "Ok I guess. Sue sees him evryday but I haven't seen him for a couple of days." to which the Panther tells him he should go talk to his wife. Even the Black Panther is questioning Reed's response.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 31, 2006 14:02:45 GMT -5
I am a regular FF reader and have been for man yyears. Reed buries himself in his work for things like this chaos. It's EXACTLY what he does. After Doctor Doom was defeated, he also ignored his family, even going so far as to indirectly insult Sue.
I think this is exactly what I could see Reed doing.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Jul 31, 2006 17:30:54 GMT -5
How about Tony going along with the government after all the times they tried to take Stark Enterprises (or whatever they call it today) away from him for th good of the country.
How about Pym working for the government after they through him in jail on trumped up charges.
How about Reed going along with the government right after they tried to create an army of FF's and take his kids away?
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Jul 31, 2006 17:42:02 GMT -5
And to realy show how stupid this whole thing is, what's to keep all the unregistered heroes from moving to another country.
And I thought SIELD was part of the UN. How can they be rounding up people in the US?
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Post by imperiusrex on Jul 31, 2006 20:40:57 GMT -5
Let me guess, someone else who thinks they are all acting totally out of character? Well it's each to his own, based on my own views of the characters I've read about for so many years, I can see Reed, Tony etc doing exactly what they have done here. Please, cite me some examples of 'radical out of character' behaviour everyone complains about. Well, here's the problem. Because the characters have been written by fifty different writers, each of whom have their own take and nuances, there'll be a hundred different issues where one can quote one or two instances where something justifies this level of behavior. However, let's look to the core of these characters, the fact that they've devoted their lives to a certain ideal, a certain creed and are often willing to put their lives on the line just for these ideals. For justice, for freedom, for the right thing. See what they have Tony, Reed and Hank doing is the most prudent thing. Which makes sense to an extent. They're men of science, pragmatic in their approach because that's generally what scientists are. But by that token, why do they fight crime or interstellar conquerors in the first place? Wouldn't the world be better served by Reed saving the ozone layer, and Tony ending our dependency on finite fossil fuel? Of course. Two of the smartest thinkers EVER should not be putting their lives on the line every day fighing megalomaniacs. Sadly it seems any joe with a third grade science kit can figure out how to work pym particles so Hank isn't as indespensible, but just think how the world could save money, fuel, time, etc. if thousand of pounds of material could be shrunk and transported via a pym particle machine. worth far more than punching out sandman for the fiftieth time. these heroes they do it because they feel they have to. And that kind of calling makes the characters work. given this current characterization one wonders why they fight the good fight in the first place. it's obviously not prudent.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 1, 2006 4:01:18 GMT -5
Imperiusrex, I do take your pont- really, I do- but I think people have convinced themselves Registration is wrong when it's really not. I myself am a liberal, but I genuinely believe the Registration Act is a good thing. It WILL prevent another Stamford, and I can see very little of a downside. Plus, even if I didn't agree with it, I couldn't sanction an open rebellion because there's a law I don't like. I think Reed, Tony and Hank are leading te charge because they know the law is right, not just because it's practical.
How on EARTH is that really relevant? That's like saying it's out of character for him to pay taxes because that is going along with the government! Of COURSE it's in-character for Tony to help the government on something like this. There are many places you could consider Tony as acting out of character but that isn't really one of them.
The exact same applies. Are you really saying that because the government did that Hank will never work for them again? Now THAT would be out of character. he is a hero, he helps to enforce the law and rules of the government.
The exact same applies. They are heroes because they rise above this kind of thing.
How in the name of God is that stupid? That's like saying 'what's to keep all the bank robbers from moving to another country?' That is a ridiculous argument. And yeah, SHIELD is a UN task force. However they have been given special permission by the Untied States- and they enforce international law. The SHRA is a law.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 1, 2006 12:47:00 GMT -5
The fact that other countries have bank robbing laws too...
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 1, 2006 13:08:49 GMT -5
The Marvel Universe characters were all very consistent until superstars, prima donas, and hollywood hacks came along.
First in the 90's, then in the 00's.
Geniuses like Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Steve Englehart, Roger Stern, Jim Starlin, et al, overwrote and oversold amounts that would embarass the current crop sitcom writer wannabee's.
They wrote in three issues what now takes one full year and, still, doesn't come out on time. They wrote the Avengers without Wolverine crutches. And they sold five times more without alternacovers, deaths per second, reboots per minute, or cheesecake per hour. Then again, well, they did have this thing called talent...
And since then, as someone put it once:
Welcome to Marvel Continuity city! Population: WTF?
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 1, 2006 17:15:08 GMT -5
okay, a different tack, then. why had the us govt never tried to do anything with superhumans before? you see i'm not against registration, i'm against contrived scenes that force a plot like this into action. honestly with teenagers able to blast apart mountains since the very beginning of the mu, somebody would've had to have had the good sense to say "we should make sure these people know what they're doing." i can't buy a gun without paperwork, yet johhny storm can go nova burst flame in midtown without anyone ever making sure it doesn't cause irrevocable damage? ridiculous. someone would've done something long before now. and reed richards is extrapolating the negatives of superhuman activity in mathematic abstracts, yet never once thought to say to shield "maybe I should get together a braintrust to help this burgeoning superhuman community to prevent some tragedy or accidental use of excessive superhuman force." again, ridiculous. also, why I think these heroes would not back the registration act is simple. it's a reaction out of fear and anger and people will never act rationally when they act out of fear. to back it is to give in to mob rule and no smart hero would let things go down this path because they know it's the beginning of the end. i could make a ton of 9/11 comparisions and how they haven't made the US any safer, but let's leave the imaginary politics to marvel...
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 1, 2006 20:19:55 GMT -5
wow, I lost a karma point after this discussion. who's hating on my treatises?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 2, 2006 4:29:25 GMT -5
It's not me! To prove it, I shall karma you up, since you are making an excellent argument!
PS: though I seem to have lost a karma point myself, and I have absoloutely no idea why; all I've done on this forum is argue that Civil War is an excellent crossover and new Avengers might not be that bad.
Well I'm going to offer two suggestions here. Firstly, let's remember (all in the Marvel Uni) the first real super-humans they encountered where Namor, Captain America, the original Human Torch and Toro. These- The Invaders- were (in Marvel Uni remember!) responsible largely for winning World War II. That immediately puts them off to a good start.
The next major batch of super-humans are the Fantastic Four, who again do good- they are heroes, they save lives and the planet time and time and time again/ They are inspirations- these two groups immediately put super human relations extremely high! Others- like Spider-Man- are considered to be menaces by some, but for the most part most super humans are people like the Avengers, the Fantastic Four etc. If a Registration Act was introduced in these times- as it probably was- it would have been shouted down.
For a long time it continued that way. But in the more rcent years- (as cited in NA: Illuminati) Wolverine, a 'hero' threatened to kill the president, the Avengers were torn apart by one of their own, super-heroes illegally agreed to help Nick Fury's secret war, etc, etc. The illusion has been shattered once and for all at Stamford and it's only now the public are really willing to accept Registration- and indeed, they cry out for it. I don't think that is so implausible at all.
And the second reason- the real one- Marvel simply didn't think of it before. But just because they didn't think of it before, it doesn't mean they shouldn't do it! That way many of the best stories would never be told.
I don't agree- I think that is EXACTLY what he, Hank and Tony are doing during the Civil War. They never did it before because Reed has been pretty busy in recent years- y'know.... battling Doom, taking over Latveria, saving his kids, etc. Besides, I don't think even Reed ever thought it would come to this, because he couldn't predict many of the things which led to Registration.
The heroes aren't backing the registration act out of fear or anger, I really believe they are backing it because they think (and I agree) it is the right thing. They look at Stamford and they know- if the New Warriors had been registered heroes, that would not have happened. Don't try to make excuses otherwise- it wouldn't have! They know that if super-heroes are registered, it is far, far easier to beat super-villains. Think about it once it's all complete: Count Nefaria is attacking? Send in Sentry. Venom is coming? Send in Siryn and the Human Torch. They can perfectly co-ordinate super hero to super villain- and with 42 they have a place to put them where they can't be rescued. It isn't fear or anger- it's rational thought.
I must agree, the US is not any safer since 9/11. But though the allegory is intended, I don't believe the two are parallel.
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 2, 2006 9:07:19 GMT -5
It's not me! To prove it, I shall karma you up, since you are making an excellent argument! PS: though I seem to have lost a karma point myself, and I have absoloutely no idea why; all I've done on this forum is argue that Civil War is an excellent crossover and new Avengers might not be that bad. Well I'm going to offer two suggestions here. Firstly, let's remember (all in the Marvel Uni) the first real super-humans they encountered where Namor, Captain America, the original Human Torch and Toro. These- The Invaders- were (in Marvel Uni remember!) responsible largely for winning World War II. That immediately puts them off to a good start. The next major batch of super-humans are the Fantastic Four, who again do good- they are heroes, they save lives and the planet time and time and time again/ They are inspirations- these two groups immediately put super human relations extremely high! Others- like Spider-Man- are considered to be menaces by some, but for the most part most super humans are people like the Avengers, the Fantastic Four etc. If a Registration Act was introduced in these times- as it probably was- it would have been shouted down. For a long time it continued that way. But in the more rcent years- (as cited in NA: Illuminati) Wolverine, a 'hero' threatened to kill the president, the Avengers were torn apart by one of their own, super-heroes illegally agreed to help Nick Fury's secret war, etc, etc. The illusion has been shattered once and for all at Stamford and it's only now the public are really willing to accept Registration- and indeed, they cry out for it. I don't think that is so implausible at all. And the second reason- the real one- Marvel simply didn't think of it before. But just because they didn't think of it before, it doesn't mean they shouldn't do it! That way many of the best stories would never be told. I don't agree- I think that is EXACTLY what he, Hank and Tony are doing during the Civil War. They never did it before because Reed has been pretty busy in recent years- y'know.... battling Doom, taking over Latveria, saving his kids, etc. Besides, I don't think even Reed ever thought it would come to this, because he couldn't predict many of the things which led to Registration. The heroes aren't backing the registration act out of fear or anger, I really believe they are backing it because they think (and I agree) it is the right thing. They look at Stamford and they know- if the New Warriors had been registered heroes, that would not have happened. Don't try to make excuses otherwise- it wouldn't have! They know that if super-heroes are registered, it is far, far easier to beat super-villains. Think about it once it's all complete: Count Nefaria is attacking? Send in Sentry. Venom is coming? Send in Siryn and the Human Torch. They can perfectly co-ordinate super hero to super villain- and with 42 they have a place to put them where they can't be rescued. It isn't fear or anger- it's rational thought. I must agree, the US is not any safer since 9/11. But though the allegory is intended, I don't believe the two are parallel. well, I think your argument is well thought out as well, but there are some gaps that I notice. first namor prior to WW II was one of the most aggressive enemies of the human race, often threatening to kill everyone. I remember Roger Stern touched on this when he inducted Namor into the Avengers. But he has ordered the Atlantean army to attack the surface and just gone on rampages a dozen times. The fact that hundreds weren't killed when an invading army rose from the oceans seems fairly ridiculous as does the fact that no one ever decided to declare Atlantis an enemy to freedom with weapons of mass destruction. second when the FF got their powers, The Thing was liable to go off at a moment's notice-often wreaking havoc over his condition. Plus the Hulk has caused untold billions of dollars of damage as well as (according to the illumnati special) loss of life for several years. If the Hulk, the most terrifying hero in marvel who I've seen destroy entire towns (and it's been captured by news crews often), couldn't galvanize the federal government and people at large, I don't think anything could. I think there were hundreds of incidents where the white house was attacked, whole cities held hostage, people were murdered or threatened by superhumans and nothing of any magnitude has ever happened in the marvel universe as a result. I think, because the creators knew you couldn't really have the brotherhood of evil mutants threaten the white house without being executed for crimes against the state. so this whole build-up seems as forced as namorita being so stupid as to punch a human bomb into a crowd of children... and what i got from Reed's speech about the negatives of super hero activity was that he had, from numerous sources of information, an understanding that something severe would happen as a result of unchecked superhuman activity. now given that, and the fact as you say, it makes more sense to have Siryn and the Torch team up to effectively fight villains, why wouldn't he have made the time to do something about it? He would've saved hundreds of lives, helped the superhuman community maintain autonomy by creating their own set of rules, and done something that absolutely needed to be done, which is train all kinds of heroes in the usage of their powers. It could've been brought up at one of those illuminati meetings they've supposedly been having for years. Panther and Stark could've bankrolled it, Pym who puts on his labcoat often enough that he's not too busy could've run it and the whole thing could've been set up within a week. With a couple of Avengers and the head of the FF offering to help train people with powers, a large number of inexperienced superhumans (maybe even some who otherwise would eventually became villains btw) would've been at least interested. I just think this whole plot would've worked far better in the Ultimate Universe where superheroes haven't been around as long and in the numbers they are in the Marvel U. But now with decades of history where any number of lives have been taken by Magnteo, Doom, et al. it seems silly that this one incident finally set off the powder keg. Also I don't think the heroes are reacting out of fear and anger, I think the public is. And the heroes can't have their behavior dictated by the fear and anger of the public because that's the beginning of the end. For example, the world at large wouldn't feel comfortable with an isolationist superhuman community like attilan. do we have to go to war with them and make them register? or the eternals? and the superheroes would have no choice, if they're now gov't sanctioned because in order to keep that sanction they'd have to jump when told to jump.
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Post by balok on Aug 2, 2006 11:42:15 GMT -5
I believe Reed Richards, Tony Stark and Peter Parker are all being written out of character. Peter at least is having some trouble with what he's been asked to do - questioning the wisdom of it. But Reed and Tony are out in left field somewhere.
I think Luke Cage was well-written in the most recent issue of Avengers, and considering I don't really like Bendis' work on that book (I enjoyed him on Alias) that's a complement.
Having someone pulling strings, an idea I've advanced on this board previously, certainly seems possible but there isn't enough evidence yet. People under stress act out of character, and it could be this is what Millar and others are trying to convey. Cap, after all, has never known what it is to be hated by the public (unless one counts the German public during World War II, but I digress). Tony and Reed both have that experience. So does Peter. They could be panicking although they're not really being written that way, either.
If there IS someone pulling strings... well, that would turn a realistic story highly unrealistic and in a big hurry. After all, this has been done to the heroes on many previous occasions and they even have (or are supposed to have) some defenses in place.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Aug 2, 2006 12:17:14 GMT -5
I'm not against the idea of a "registration" either. I just think that someone in the government who had the brains to put together SHIELD way back when would have thought of it. I know at one point back in the '70's or '80's they tried it but it was such a half hearted attempt that most people have forgotten it.
I think back after WWII and during the Cold War someone would have thought it would be a pretty good idea to have a government sactioned "Invaders" or "Liberty Legion" on hand all the time.
Look at all the times the government has asked the FF to chase down the Hulk only to the FF decide they really didn't want to. Why not have your own group out there doing the dirty work and getting the results you want.
If the Invaders were so effective in WWII. Sub-Mariner attacking New York. Doom sending th Baxter Building into space. Magneto attacking military post. Kang trying to conquer the world. Galactus trying to eat the world. The Kree-Skrull war. Neferious taking over a misslie base. Any of the number of times the Hulk went on a public rampage. Any of the number of times the city of New York has been attacked by super terrorist like Zodiac or aliens or demons.
If none of these sparked an interest in forming a government run group of super heroes in the past, why suddenly now?
And with intelligent people like Tony and Reed running the show, why does it have the feel of something out of Nazi Germany when the Gestapo brutally pulled people out of their houses in the middle of the night?
It would make more sense if the government said "We want you to register with us if you plan on continuing to be a super hero. If you don't want to register then hang up your cape and dissapear back into society. If you show your mask in public doing any "super hero" stuff after that, we will be forced to take you in and have you register or go to jail."
Even that seems harsh but it beats the heck out of what happened to Luke Cage.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Aug 14, 2006 22:22:54 GMT -5
Richards is pouring himself into his work (which is nothing new) because he's afraid of what will happen if he can't help. Remember, he's a father too. He can probably relate to what happened with the parents at Stamford and all his paranoia that bubbles under the surface regarding his children's safety has just come bursting outward in an intense amount of work. Of course, Reed’s children are terrible threats to safety, or at least Franklin is. Reed once shut down his son’s brain to prevent it from destroying the Earth. By comparison, Nitro comes out looking as threatening as a hangnail.
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