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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 27, 2007 13:27:54 GMT -5
Iron Man is not humble enough to handle it this way. And I believe there is no justification for the violation Tony, Reed, and Hank committed when they created Clor. The creation of Clor itself is an act of incredible arrogance, coming as it does from an ends justify the means philosophy which Tony fully embraced starting with Civil War and partially embraced prior to that. No explanation can justify it, and only the destruction of Clor, a promise never to try again, and a lot of time can heal it - if it can be healed at all. If I had Thor's power? I would probably use it to kill someone who cloned me, passed the clone off as me, and allowed the clone to do murder. I would probably make the attempt without Thor's power but I doubt I would succeed. It's a vile thing to do to someone. It is if you try to spin it like that. But please, let's remember Clor was a glorified robot. He was a cyborg, more machine than person, and nothing more. He had no emotions, no thoughts, no feelings. He was deployed for shock alone, and they never actually claimed it was the real Thor. I'm not saying it was great... but it's nowhere near as hideous as actually making a clone of someone and unleashing it. Heh, this is quite hilarious. He paid for the property, therefore he has a right to create a nation free from all US laws there? Yeah, I wish. That's like saying someone can murder people on their land since it's their land and they can do what they like there. A well written Iron Man would have and did do over half the things he did in the last year. Of course, I never pretended for an instant that they "didn't count" because of this but I understand if you have to twist everything I say until it conforms to your narrow worldview. I merely expressed the belief, as backed up by most of the marvel universe, that his behaviour in this book, and in JMS's Amazing Spider-Man, is unlike his behaviour anywhere else in the marvel universe. Still, this does happen, but there's not much you can say about it. It's not a huge blow to IM's character or anything. Thor shows up and Tony is a dick to him. Stupid, but still, considering these days the ratio of "Tony acting bad" to "Tony acting good" is about 6: 1 in favour of him acting good, I'm content.
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Post by balok on Aug 27, 2007 17:49:40 GMT -5
It is if you try to spin it like that. But please, let's remember Clor was a glorified robot. He was a cyborg, more machine than person, and nothing more. He had no emotions, no thoughts, no feelings. He was deployed for shock alone, and they never actually claimed it was the real Thor. I'm not saying it was great... but it's nowhere near as hideous as actually making a clone of someone and unleashing it. Oh, c'mon, Doc... Now who's spinning? In fact, you should change your name to match that of a DC villain - The Top! The tissue parts were grown from Thor's DNA. The mechanical parts augmented it so that it would be more like Thor. It was made to look like Thor. They gave it hammer like Thor had and the ability to use lightning. It was intended to be Thor. And with 500 IQ points between them, they somehow didn't realize they'd lose control over it. Yes, it is as hideous as making a clone. Heh, this is quite hilarious. He paid for the property, therefore he has a right to create a nation free from all US laws there? Yeah, I wish. That's like saying someone can murder people on their land since it's their land and they can do what they like there. I'll have to re-read my two issues. I don't remember Thor saying he intended to violate US law. Except maybe the morally unsound SHRA.
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Post by balok on Aug 27, 2007 17:50:27 GMT -5
I should add this to my signature!
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Post by Tana Nile on Aug 27, 2007 18:36:38 GMT -5
I think Thor is obviously ticked off about more than just Clor. From reading the pages prior to the Thor-Iron Man meeting, it looks like JMS is taking the approach that Thor is incredulous, and disappointed, that his former comrades spent time fighting each other and not helping people. I'm really wondering just how much contact or involvement Thor is going to want to have with other heroes as this point. He could show them complete disdain, or he could try to re-unite the two opposing sides (granted, there aren't many anti-reggers still out there running free). I'm really intrigued to see where the thunder god's path will lie.
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Post by balok on Aug 27, 2007 20:32:15 GMT -5
I think Tony ought to make him move Asgard. I think he ought to send every Initiative unit in there after Thor and make him leave! Yeah, that'd be kewl!!! Let's see: Cap's dead. Tony and Hank did him wrong. Jan is married to Hank. The Hulk is now a villain. That's pretty much all his buds from the old days. Maybe JMS should leave him out of mainstream Marvel. If he does, I could read one comic where I could at least pretend it was the good days of Marvel.
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Post by bendisbites on Aug 28, 2007 0:56:19 GMT -5
Being a God, isn't it kind of hard to say that Thor is not allowed some leeway in his actions legally? I mean if people believe in him and he is an earthly manifestation of some greater power, then it's not like you or I buying two acres and building a golden city is it? I just can't see it as being as cut and dried as all that. I mean what's next--since Death is a tangible manifestation can she be prosecuted for assisting twenty billion homicides? People die because Death is letting it happen. If Death the purple robed version the MU, is somehow captured or bound by an immense power like Thanos' with the Infinity Gauntlet, people stop dying. is she above all laws and regulations because she's special and a natural part of order? Well maybe, but it's very metaphysical and so is a thunder god doing just about anything, including shaping weather patterns to his whims. I mean, Thor shouldn't be allowed to do that either, right? Intense storms and high winds can damage crops, homes, and maybe wreak havoc on the atmosphere. Should we really bother to extrapolate this sort of thing, the MU would become even more ridiculous than it is now. the devil has appeared a hundred times, yet almost no superheroes seem even mildly bothered by the ramifications of knowing there is some sort of judeo-christian devil that does appear. How does that not change your religious beliefs? When you know that abstract ideas are concrete? I dunno. It would surely muck up my head something fierce...
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Post by balok on Aug 28, 2007 9:31:46 GMT -5
That would turn on whether people in the Marvel universe generally accept that he is a god. I think it has been said in the past that folks like Tony regard him as a powerful, but mortal, being.
Even so, if you plan on exercising the prerogatives of a god, you'd better plan on exercising the powers of a god, too. At least often enough to convince folks you're not to be messed with.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 29, 2007 7:03:16 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon, Doc... Now who's spinning? In fact, you should change your name to match that of a DC villain - The Top! It's no insult to be compared with a member of the best villains gallery in comics. It was not intended to be Thor, it was intended to be used once as a shock tactic. We've seen inside the clone/cyborg. It's 99% machine. It's hammer is machine. In fact, as far as can be determined, just about the only part of it that isn't a robot is it's appearance, which is what's Thor's DNA was used for. It's more machine than person by a mile, hence why it's referred to as a cyborg more than a clone. If someone made a clone of me and brainwashed it to hurt people I'd be horrified. If someone made a robot that looked like me and used ity as a shock tactic, I'd be pretty d**n angry, no question, but nowehre near as angry as I would if it was a clone. Well, isn't that just lovely. I'm sure Thor has every intention of paying his taxes to the US Government. But even beyond that, it's nice to see that if we say "I don't intend to follow Law X as I find it morally unsound", that's absolutely fine and the government have zero right to come after you about it. Awww- does this mean if I decide a law against killing is against my morally principles and shoot a man, the government will say "I'ts okay, he doesn't intend to violate a law except that one he finds morally unsound!" So idealistic, Balok. "Jan is married to Hank"? Correct me if I'm wrong but... there was a little... oh, I dunno, a minor divorce after some trivial incident in their history, right? And c'mon, "Hulk is now a villain"? Hulk swaps between hero and villain every 2 days as he always have. And I wouldn't exactly call him and Thor "buds". I anticipate him going "Screw you!" to both sides more than anything. Well actually, no, with JMS I anticipate Thor being hardcore anti-reg. But it's funny, JMS seems to imply Thor blames Hurricane Katrina on the Civil War. Even in Marvel-time, Katrina took place PRE Civil War.
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Post by bendisbites on Aug 29, 2007 9:41:06 GMT -5
That would turn on whether people in the Marvel universe generally accept that he is a god. I think it has been said in the past that folks like Tony regard him as a powerful, but mortal, being. Even so, if you plan on exercising the prerogatives of a god, you'd better plan on exercising the powers of a god, too. At least often enough to convince folks you're not to be messed with. well, if you look at the MU, guys like Doom have gotten away with all kinds of crimes in the US and pretty much get away with it because of their diplomatic status. I HAVE to imagine that visiting Norse Gods have got some amount of similar status. A benevolent Norse deity isn't Joe Blow from slapnuts USA and he has to merit some special consideration... And if Clor was almost all robot, why was he so hard to control? Either he's more clone/cyborg or three of the smartest men ever now can't even make a robot that takes orders. Clor seemed to be capable of independent thought and autonomous and seemed to have some semblance of an organically functioning brain. And his entire exterior seemed to be Thor flesh and blood and that has to count somewhat. In any case for a funny look at why Clor went nuts follow the bouncing link. be forewarned kiddies, there's a curse word or two on this page and the Thor/Clor stuff is near the bottom of the page... polyvicitus.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=marvel&action=display&thread=1172727582&page=1
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Post by balok on Aug 29, 2007 10:56:26 GMT -5
well, if you look at the MU, guys like Doom have gotten away with all kinds of crimes in the US and pretty much get away with it because of their diplomatic status. That's true! Post SHRA, Doctor Doom (a foreign villain) has more rights and a home grown superhero! I HAVE to imagine that visiting Norse Gods have got some amount of similar status. A benevolent Norse deity isn't Joe Blow from slapnuts USA and he has to merit some special consideration... I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm suggesting that Tony and the government might. We don't know yet because that story has not been written. And if Clor was almost all robot, why was he so hard to control? He's not "almost all robot." He had enough robot parts to simulate the things the clone couldn't do and to (at least theoretically) enable the <sarcasm>awesome threesome</sarcasm> to control him. Doom is trying to spin it differently so Clor's creators don't look as bad. Either he's more clone/cyborg or three of the smartest men ever now can't even make a robot that takes orders. Clor seemed to be capable of independent thought and autonomous and seemed to have some semblance of an organically functioning brain. And his entire exterior seemed to be Thor flesh and blood and that has to count somewhat. Yeah, 500 IQ points between them and they screwed the pooch on that one big time.
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Post by balok on Aug 29, 2007 11:12:30 GMT -5
We've seen inside the clone/cyborg. It's 99% machine. It's hammer is machine. In fact, as far as can be determined, just about the only part of it that isn't a robot is it's appearance, which is what's Thor's DNA was used for. It's more machine than person by a mile, hence why it's referred to as a cyborg more than a clone. Aren't you the lucky one! The comics I saw he was entirely cased in flesh and there were mechanical parts inside. You must have got your hands on some special edition books. But even were I to accept that, it doesn't address: (1) it was made to look like Thor and used Thor's DNA to grow its flesh. (2) it had Thor's hammer and Thor's electrical powers. If they'd wanted a simple shock troop, they could have given it any number of forms. They chose to make it look like Thor because they wanted people to think it was Thor, so that (1) opponents would presumably be demoralized and (2) those on the fence might reconsider, thinking that if Thor supported them, the pro-reggers must be right, and (3) for public PR purposes. If someone made a clone of me and brainwashed it to hurt people I'd be horrified. If someone made a robot that looked like me and used ity as a shock tactic, I'd be pretty d**n angry, no question, but nowehre near as angry as I would if it was a clone. I'd regard them both as a lot closer. In each case, my identity was co-opted to endorse something I may not support, without asking me (and if I can't be asked, the default answer should be assumed to be "no"). And that thing, that was made to look like me, was then permitted to do murder because its makers couldn't control it. Hell, there's even a precedent - Hank Pym's last attempt at an autonomous robot was an unmitigated disaster! Well, isn't that just lovely. I'm sure Thor has every intention of paying his taxes to the US Government. He hasn't said he won't. Why assume that? Oh, right, because like the SHRA, you seem to endorse a philosophy that assumes people will do wrong until they prove they'll do right. That's true in aggregate but far from true individually, based on on experience. I hope you don't work for any law enforcement or court system! But even beyond that, it's nice to see that if we say "I don't intend to follow Law X as I find it morally unsound", that's absolutely fine and the government have zero right to come after you about it. Awww- does this mean if I decide a law against killing is against my morally principles and shoot a man, the government will say "I'ts okay, he doesn't intend to violate a law except that one he finds morally unsound!" Strawman. Thor has said none of this. "Jan is married to Hank"? Correct me if I'm wrong but... there was a little... oh, I dunno, a minor divorce after some trivial incident in their history, right? Hmmm, good point. I guess Thor *does* have someone in the old crew he can get along with. And c'mon, "Hulk is now a villain"? Hulk swaps between hero and villain every 2 days as he always have. And I wouldn't exactly call him and Thor "buds". Mostly prior to this his rampages were the result of being attacked, especially repeatedly by Thunderbolt Ross (whose survival demonstrated that the Hulk was governed by a core of basic goodness). Now he's killing people in large numbers in WWH, isn't he? If not, I'd guess that's only because discussing such deaths doesn't buy Marvel anything - like discussing superhuman conflict related deaths never bought them anything until they wanted a Civil War, so you never heard about them. I don't see how The Hulk can ever again be perceived in a sympathetic light, although as a result of what they did to him I would have equally little use for Reed, Tony, Doc Strange, Namor, Black Bolt, and Xavier. I anticipate him going "Screw you!" to both sides more than anything. Well actually, no, with JMS I anticipate Thor being hardcore anti-reg. I hope so. Someone needs to keep the candle of personal freedom burning as Iron Man marches Marvel towards a police state enforced by his tamed superhumans. But it's funny, JMS seems to imply Thor blames Hurricane Katrina on the Civil War. Even in Marvel-time, Katrina took place PRE Civil War. Is #3 actually out yet? I haven't read it, but I don't recall Thor saying or implying this in #1 or #2 or in the previews.
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Post by bendisbites on Aug 29, 2007 12:00:09 GMT -5
well, if you look at the MU, guys like Doom have gotten away with all kinds of crimes in the US and pretty much get away with it because of their diplomatic status. That's true! Post SHRA, Doctor Doom (a foreign villain) has more rights and a home grown superhero! I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm suggesting that Tony and the government might. We don't know yet because that story has not been written. He's not "almost all robot." He had enough robot parts to simulate the things the clone couldn't do and to (at least theoretically) enable the <sarcasm>awesome threesome</sarcasm> to control him. Doom is trying to spin it differently so Clor's creators don't look as bad. Either he's more clone/cyborg or three of the smartest men ever now can't even make a robot that takes orders. Clor seemed to be capable of independent thought and autonomous and seemed to have some semblance of an organically functioning brain. And his entire exterior seemed to be Thor flesh and blood and that has to count somewhat. Yeah, 500 IQ points between them and they screwed the pooch on that one big time. I didn't think you were disagreeing but rather I was providing a specific example of how things might be seen i.e. even if you don't believe Thor is a "god" he would at least be treated with the same respect and powers as a foreign dignitary. And 500 IQ points is actually a little low--I'd go for 200 plus for each member of that triumvirate, so we're talking at least 600.
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Post by mrblaque on Sept 15, 2007 13:54:23 GMT -5
Iron Man still comes off as evil here to me. "You're with the government or against it." Ugh. Come on, JMS! Be better! Be like Millar! But . . . other than that . . . it's so on! Well Tony has NEVER considered Thor to be an intellectual giant, so talking down to him in such a simple and condesending manner, especially when he thinks he has the upper hand, is somewhat par the course for him.
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Post by fyrehand on Sept 16, 2007 19:33:13 GMT -5
um Balok, Just for the record namor was against sending hulk away
other than that yeah pretty much
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