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Post by Doctor Doom on May 26, 2007 14:48:18 GMT -5
Wow, talk about impatience. He's barely been on-page, like the Skull himself lately. Clearly there is much to be explained. By your rationale we should all boo the issue because we don't immediately know what the Red Skull's plan is! Not to mention that those "issues in which nothing happened" not only laid the foundations for this entire current saga but also fully explained the views of Cap and his supporting cast on the civil war which is the largest event to hit Cap in some time. Except no. There was an entire year long period after House of M where Hawkeye was not confirmed to be ebtiher. Everyone SUSPECTED he was alive, but no-one knew for certain until NA 26. And even beyond that, it's stupid to have Falcon talk to him and NOT bring up Ronin, AND it's not greatly relevant to the story being told, AND Brubaker by no means has the obligation to tell about this frontrunning character in another book, especially when we've just established that would require an entire seperate scene which overall would add nothing. No, it's not. That is idiocy. The funeral clearly does not have to be on-panel. What exactly does it contribute to the following: -Showing Sharon's guilt- Nada -Showing Falcon's regret- some, certainly, but no mere than we have already gleaned from Cap 26 -Showing Red Skull's scheming- zero -Showing Iron Man's feelings- some, which is already being hammered in HEAVILY in Fallen Son so is redundant. So what it is, in fact, is a load of pages which are definitely essential to be told somewhere, but are just a distraction from the entire purpose and plot of this arc in the main Captain America book. Glad to see you don't generalise! So let's see, I'm the biggest fanboy of JMS- he's one of marvel's top names, right? Well of course, I only read ONE of his many projects, which is very up and down and I read another and absolutely despised his entire run but CLEARLY I'm his biggest fanboy. Brubaker, who as I already mentioned I read 1 of his 5 books. Dan Slott, of whom I read.... one book.... which I find quite good but not great. Bendis of whom I read two books, one of which I disliked for some time, whose biggest stories I have repeatedly criticised, while not reading many more of his boks and still not finding either of his current books amazing. Greg Pak, whose work I have read briefly and intensely disliked. Thus leaving me with...? Oh right, I'm Mark Millar's biggest fan because I actually like most of his stuff. Well clearly, he is EVERY marvel writer. You don't have a leg to stand on in this particular argument, RSC. And yet if he did, there's no way you'd accept it. And I'm absolutely certain that if he recited a speech greater than Lincoln's Second Inaugural you'd sneer at it as inappropriate, tacky, cheesy and unworthy. [quote["The funeral [of Captain America] is a minor part that does not advance said story." I think I'll let the ridiculousness of that statement speak for itself.[/quote] Because by twisting it and stating it out of context, it actually WORKS... sadly, that's the only way it does so. I've already laid out the plot points going in Cap's book and how a funeral is totally redundant. Firstly, I find this comment rather shocking in it's bald-faced... well, accusatory... Geez, I guess I'll let it speak for itself. No matter how many times you are disproved about your beliefs of me, you still find that unique way to discard logic and replace it with a rant that despite being utterly wrong still contains your particular tone of snide arrogance and superiority. No, you think I bow and scrape because apparantly all your sense of logic has been diluted, perhaps by years of convincing yourself that you cannot possibly be wrong in any situation. As I mentioned above, the sheer enormity of your arrogance and refusal to accept that anyone else could POSSIBLY have a point when they disagree with you is simply mind blowing... really, truly extraordinary. Congratulations on that. So I can see.... Except of course, the writers and stories you like. BEcause an advocate of the GRUENWALD cap run above all others and someone who I presume is a great fan of the KREE/SKRULL WAR is going to lecture me about predictability. If Superman only had one book, it wouldn't have been surprising to see his funeral in a mini. But regardless, the death of superman was telling a COMPLETELY different story to "Death Of The Dream". Clones ARE a stupid plot device. Not just in the most recent stories but in almost any story. They are an insane deux ex machina and I think Bucky rather convincingly destroyed the Cosmic Cube for a reason. Except of course, firstly they're very very likely when they reach this point to pick up the black rimmed comic with a giant bloody shield on it and "THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA" on it. Secondly, according to you all comic fans are idiots anyway and thus will find the "weak" miniseries to be awesome since that's the opposite of what you think. Well I'm sure the giant robot served zero purpose whatsoever in the story beyond to ensure Bucky didn't kill Lukin. that was definitely the sole reason for it's existence. I'm sure Brubaker had zero desire whatsoever to have Cap and Bucky fighting side by side one last time, or to use it to showcase the public return ofg the Skull, or any crap like that! Actually, I think it was Perkins taking on Skull in this book. Personally speaking I prefer the face which is an actual red skull, as opposed to the mask we have seen of the Red Skull since... issue 18 or thereabouts. He struck a bargain. The Skull showed him that some day he would travel back in time and become a baron in germany and do all this crazy stuff etc, and in return Doom gave some time travel tech good for one use only which Zola reverse engineered. Firstly, I doubt Brubaker ever really planned to tell the funeral in his book, secondly Jeph Loeb took over most of Fallen Son and the idea early on. And Brubaker has rather a lot of influence over all things Cap, considering he even contributed to Cap in Civil War.
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Post by Alchemist-X on May 26, 2007 17:22:51 GMT -5
If Cap's death was foisted on Ed Brubaker, I can see an attitude of "you deal with it." However, Mr. Brubaker was the proponent of this, and he should have demanded all the major plot points occur in his title. Ten years from now when people are reading back issues, they'll wonder why there's no funeral in the main title, and why it's in some weak miniseries. RSC I don´t think Ed Brubaker can demand that. The Fallen Son mini was JMS idea, probably he and Joe Q thought that the funeral belonged in the 'event' mini series. Brubaker doesn´t have all that influence at Marvel (and over the editors) that you think he has. I'm inclined to agree that this was the case. Since neither the Fallen son mini nor the Cap arc are completed, we don't know for sure if we will see said funeral/speech in some form, but It seems the way Marvel laid it out, it will most likely appear in Fallen Son if it appears at all.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 26, 2007 17:26:40 GMT -5
It DOES appear in Fallen Son 5. This is fact!
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 26, 2007 17:31:31 GMT -5
It still all feels very,... choppy, to me. But there is still a good many issues to go, they have time to tie it into something meaningful. I just hope they do.
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Post by thew40 on May 26, 2007 18:09:25 GMT -5
It still all feels very,... choppy, to me. But there is still a good many issues to go, they have time to tie it into something meaningful. I just hope they do. Agreed on all points, my South Cakalakian friend. ~W~
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Post by redstatecap on May 26, 2007 22:52:12 GMT -5
Wow, talk about impatience. He's barely been on-page, like the Skull himself lately. Clearly there is much to be explained. By your rationale we should all boo the issue because we don't immediately know what the Red Skull's plan is! Not to mention that those "issues in which nothing happened" not only laid the foundations for this entire current saga but also fully explained the views of Cap and his supporting cast on the civil war which is the largest event to hit Cap in some time. Of course you wounldn't delve into the current story about why he's working with the Red Lukin and what his goals are. But there has been time to explain how Faustas is alive, and there is a story reason now to explain why Faustas is alive. And in those issues, Cap barely appeared, and his supporting cast spent pages upon pages in mainly irrelevant activities. In no possible way can it be argued that these three issues were too packed with content to be able to support a Faustas retcon. Even if I grant you from HoM to NA #26, NA #26 still came before Cap #26 by some months, and not due to the unforseen "Fallen Son" delay. So by the time Cap #26 was due there would be nothing to spoil. And how would the Falcon know to bring up Ronin in a conversation, and why would Clint desire to bring up Ronin? And by the mere expedient of saying that #26 happened before Clint hooked up with the New Avengers (as in FS #3) the issue ceases to even be relevant, because Clint is not Ronin yet. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that a scene with Clint and Sam regarding Cap adds nothing, but I heartily disagree. You forgot the most essential thing -- showing Cap's funeral. I think it's highly instructive that you believe that Captain America's own funeral is extraneous to the direction of the Captain America title. That is just such a ridiculous statement that if if were anyone else it would shock me. And yet I never see you mention any of that. The vast majority of the time your posts are shills for Marvel's party line, be it in Civil War, Mighty Avengers, or Captain America. I accept that you don't like everything at Marvel, but what you do like, or at least what you post about liking, typically smacks of such homerism that it makes me wonder. I've always given him credit for good dialogue. You could verify this by reading my reviews at Alvaro. No, you've laid out the reasons you want me to accept that the funeral is redundant. And I believe that one of the reasons that is unspoken is very simply "because Ed Brubaker wrote it thus, therefore it must have been correct." Check your own posts for prime examples of "snide arrogance and superiority." And your ability to twist yourself into semantic pretzels in an abject effort to justify Marvel's party line never ceases to amaze me. If you'd read my historical posts about Gruenwald on Alvaro, you would know that this isn't the case. I liked a lot what he did, within limits. I also didn't like a lot of what he did. I didn't like his politicizing. I didn't like his "milquetoast" take on Cap. I didn't like the fact that he couldn't figure out what to do with Cap/DB once he got it to a certain point. Etc. Mark Guenwald did things right, and wrong, and I've said so. Ed Brubaker has done things right, and wrong, and I've said so. You, however, seem to think he can do no wrong. I've certainly seen no indidcation otherwise. The stories are both about the death of the title character. The fact that the characters are quite obviously different has no bearing on that fact. Clones using a machine are "stupid," but soul transferrance and brain-sharing using the Cosmic Cube are not. Time travel using a machine is also not stupid. At least not since Ed Brubaker is the one using it. It's very simple. The funeral is in the mini to give the sheep a reason to fork over their dough for a worthless 5-issue miniseries. Not so. The giant robot did absolutely nothing to prevent "Bucky" from assassinating The Red Lukin. What did prevent the assassination was the appearance of the flaming blimp. In fact, Ed Brubaker screwed up because he wrote "Bucky" as believing that Cap was on the blimp when there had been no indication to him that this was the case. RSC
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Post by thew40 on May 26, 2007 23:56:14 GMT -5
The funeral is in the mini to give the sheep a reason to fork over their dough for a worthless 5-issue miniseries. I find the sheep comment offensive. Would I be considered a sheep because I'm buying it? I don't insult you or call you an "old man" for looking older issues. Y'know, for all the griping you do, you're the one still buying this book. If you hate it so much, why not just drop it? Frick, man, you're the one that comes on-line every d**n day and complains about all the problems you have with Marvel . . . but still tends to buy (or read in the shop) the books. ~W~
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Post by redstatecap on May 27, 2007 1:21:33 GMT -5
I find the sheep comment offensive. Would I be considered a sheep because I'm buying it? I don't insult you or call you an "old man" for looking older issues. And if you did I would take it as a compliment, because what you "young guys" are supporting with your money these days doesn't measure up to my standards by a long shot. Actually I'm not still buying the book. I'll recap my purchasing history because if I don't, you'll ask. I bought the title until #9. I didn't buy #10 because it sucked, and I dropped it at #11 because it was confirmed that Bucky had been resurrected. I have not bought an issue since, but I have browsed many of them because I was interested in some aspects of what Mr. Brubaker was doing, like "21st C. Blitz." I have also browsed the issues to be able to offer intelligent criticism of (and opposition to) other aspects of what Mr. Brubaker is doing. That pretty much came to an end with this issue for a variety of reasons, one of which is that the current direction could not possibly interest me less. Yeah, I do. And I don't mind you saying so in a frank manner at all. Likewise, I don't mind saying in a frank manner why I do what I do. I believe that Marvel is going in a terribly negative direction. I believe that the people who like that direction have to turn themselves inside out to reconcile Marvel's current product with any reasonable standard of quality and historical precedent. I have and will continue to Byrne-steal Marvel product for the purposes of criticizing that product. I intend to do everything possible to withold money from Marvel. I intend to do everything possible to convince other people to withold money from Marvel. So, there it is in black and white. RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 27, 2007 5:36:14 GMT -5
Of course you wounldn't delve into the current story about why he's working with the Red Lukin and what his goals are. But there has been time to explain how Faustas is alive, and there is a story reason now to explain why Faustas is alive. And in those issues, Cap barely appeared, and his supporting cast spent pages upon pages in mainly irrelevant activities. In no possible way can it be argued that these three issues were too packed with content to be able to support a Faustas retcon. Firstly, I find it interesting that the bigger Cap fan here apparantly does not know how to correctly spell "Faustus". Secondly, you say Cap barely appeared. Well actually no, he appeared in, I'd say, roughly half the pages of those three issues which is not as much as usual but a helluva lot more than "barely", but that's by the by. Certainly, a Faustus retcon COULD have been in there. But it would break the theme Brubaker was doing to shove it into issue 2 or 3. Now could we have gotten a line or two about it in the two Faustus pages of 22? Yes, we could have. Would it have worked? Sure thing. But, for whatever reason, we didn't, I'm going to assume one is pending and if not I too will be irritated. However, while that is a quite valid criticism of 22, it would have been stupidly out of place in 26 and it's better we wait for an explanation that makes sense than have one crammed in where it does not belong. Except that again, Clint spent MONTHS at Wungadore, when he got back he went straight to Doc Strange and got the Ronin costume, and thus was already Ronin by the point he could have met Falcon. 26 has to have happened after NA 27, otherwise it makes no chronological sense. Beyond that, we'll just have to agree to disagree on Clint. Bear in mind I'm not saying a scene would make it worse, and I do think Ronin should have spoken in Cap 26. But, especially when we have a whole issue elsewhere centred on Clint's views, I don't think it's necessary when this character has never been a major part of Cap's own book. It's a story for New Avengers. If the story was all about the death of Cap, maybe. But that's just it, it's not. The death of Cap is the vehicle used to bring the story to where it needs to go. and I think it's amusing that you believe Brubaker should completely cease telling the story for which the death was written so he can focus on what you want. I'm amazed you have not yet complained that we haven't had an issue on Diamondback's reaction. Could this possibly be because I love these books? Unlike you, if I like a book I do not buy it or even read it therefore naturally I'm mostly positive- I'm positive about things I like and if I don't like it, I don't read it! And I accept that you don't like anything at marvel but the things you complain about and the sheer depth of your seeming hatred makes the mind boggle. And yet I'mstill certain you'd say the speech was not what it should have been. How about that! I trust Ed Brubaker better than you to know what story he is telling. If the funeral weren't being shown anywhere, I might agree with you. But given that it's primarily a distraction in the main book and can CLEARLY be told in somewhere else ALSO appropriate, I don't see it as a problem. Why should I when I'm quoting the ultimate examples right now? Except you've already admitted I only agree with Marvel on SOME issues. Which is what most people tend to do. You have, you juist love to ignore it. But do I feel Brubaker is better than Gruenwald? Yes, yes I do and I'm far from the only one. "Death of the Dream" is not primarily about the death of Cap at all. If you can't see that, you're being obtuse and have zero sense of subtlety. Oh no, believe me, they're all stupid ideas. But I find clones stupider than any other, dating back to I first read them, and the Clone Saga, etc. If you don't believe me look up my reaction to Clor, believe me this is nothing new since Brubaker said so. I dunno why, it's just personal preference. Rather hilarious how you demand a reaction from Clint and a funeral and then call a series which SHOWS said reaction and funeral worthless and just an excuse to demand money. Actually, he did have reason to believe this. He knew that Cap had found plans for an air attack on London, he knew Cap would be there at the Kronas thing, when he saw a giant flaming blimp it's hardly difficult to put 2 and 2 together. But yes you're right about it being the blimp, sorry bout that.
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Post by bendisbites on May 27, 2007 11:39:54 GMT -5
Of course you wounldn't delve into the current story about why he's working with the Red Lukin and what his goals are. But there has been time to explain how Faustas is alive, and there is a story reason now to explain why Faustas is alive. And in those issues, Cap barely appeared, and his supporting cast spent pages upon pages in mainly irrelevant activities. In no possible way can it be argued that these three issues were too packed with content to be able to support a Faustas retcon. Firstly, I find it interesting that the bigger Cap fan here apparantly does not know how to correctly spell "Faustus". And you don't know how to spell "apparently." This is the pettiest way to conduct an argument. I'm smiting you. Feel free to smite me back, but I think you deserve it.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 27, 2007 13:49:42 GMT -5
I argued in full to every single point RSC made, and pointed out his incorrect spelling. Unlike mine, which was clearly an error, he made the mistake consistently. The pettiest way to conduct an argument is to resort to insults and attacks. Clearly, BOTH of us have done that already. To smite me therefore for pointing out an issue is just ridiculous.
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Post by Alchemist-X on May 27, 2007 15:11:22 GMT -5
I believe that Marvel is going in a terribly negative direction. I believe that the people who like that direction have to turn themselves inside out to reconcile Marvel's current product with any reasonable standard of quality and historical precedent. I have and will continue to Byrne-steal Marvel product for the purposes of criticizing that product. I intend to do everything possible to withold money from Marvel. I intend to do everything possible to convince other people to withold money from Marvel. So, there it is in black and white. RSC I can see how you feel and mostly understand you, but the point about the people who like that direction have to turn themselves inside out to reconcile Marvel's current product with any reasonable standard of quality and historical precedent doesn't sit right with me. If nothing else because 'quality' in an artistic medium is largely opinion based so people don't need to reconcile anything to enjoy something based on their opinions. But more to the point people only have to turn themselves inside out defending Marvel to you. And I don't really buy the whole good old days theory either, I've read lots of old era Marvel comics, and I've never seen anything in them that tells me they are some kind of head and shoulders better than modern stuff. Hell more often than not, the old Marvel is drastically INFERIOR to New Marvel. The ART IS INFERIOR The dialogue is inferior The plots are silly at best, and were so so often cleaned up with sloppy use of some deus ex machina. This is how I feel about so much of Old Marvel, if you want examples I could tear down your classics with my own criticism, it really isn't hard.
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Post by bendisbites on May 27, 2007 15:42:02 GMT -5
I argued in full to every single point RSC made, and pointed out his incorrect spelling. Unlike mine, which was clearly an error, he made the mistake consistently. The pettiest way to conduct an argument is to resort to insults and attacks. Clearly, BOTH of us have done that already. To smite me therefore for pointing out an issue is just ridiculous. Nah, dude. Arguments get heated and people get a little messy with each other but you made a mistake into a bulletpoint, which was wholly lame and weak so I smited ya. Feel free to go to the mods, but I ain't apologizing or taking it back.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 27, 2007 16:07:31 GMT -5
[ Nah, dude. Arguments get heated and people get a little messy with each other but you made a mistake into a bulletpoint, which was wholly lame and weak so I smited ya. Feel free to go to the mods, but I ain't apologizing or taking it back. Apparantly we have wildly different standards in terms of what earns a smite but sure thing, of course you have a right to your own.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 27, 2007 17:16:48 GMT -5
RSC, back to that sheep point. I'm one of the fogies, but I tend to have a little more optimism. While I tend to agree that Marvel is taking what, in our opinion, is a negative turn, holding out hope isn't the same as being sheep. I hope for so long, give it an honest try, then wash my hands of it. But just because some of these younger guys are enjoying what is being produced doesn't make them stupid. It just means they have different tastes. I think some of our dissappointment with the company we tend to take out on our fellow readers. That may be a mistake. But I luv ya anyway. Just not with a sheep love tho' that's gross.
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Post by bendisbites on May 27, 2007 20:29:16 GMT -5
[ Nah, dude. Arguments get heated and people get a little messy with each other but you made a mistake into a bulletpoint, which was wholly lame and weak so I smited ya. Feel free to go to the mods, but I ain't apologizing or taking it back. Apparantly we have wildly different standards in terms of what earns a smite but sure thing, of course you have a right to your own. My standards involve taking a simple mistake and turning it into a big bulletpoint during an argument. Look if two guys start slugging it out and they start hitting each other I'm okay with it. But if one gives the other guy a low blow, I think it's a cheap shot. You two have a heated argument and you delivered a low blow--it didn't make your argument any stronger and it just served to be nasty to your opponent. For me, cheap shots get a smite. That's my standard. I don't think it's a bad one.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 27, 2007 20:32:16 GMT -5
For me, cheap shots get a smite. That's my standard. I don't think it's a bad one. cheap shots!?! who's serving cheap shots and why didn't I get invited?
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 28, 2007 4:48:51 GMT -5
As opposed to
"WWHulk hasn't even started yet, but perhaps if it features nonsensical plots and stunningly bad characterization, you will find it more to your tastes that you initially thought."
Which is apparantly not a cheap shot?
I'm going to drop the issue now bendisbites, but I made a snide remark, I didn't turn it into a maor bullet point.
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Post by von Bek on May 28, 2007 8:30:49 GMT -5
Firstly, I doubt Brubaker ever really planned to tell the funeral in his book, secondly Jeph Loeb took over most of Fallen Son and the idea early on. And Brubaker has rather a lot of influence over all things Cap, considering he even contributed to Cap in Civil War. Actually, I doubt that Brubaker planned to show the funeral in CA too. I didn´t say anything about Loeb not being involved in Fallen Son, but the original idea came from JMS´. Brubaker may have something to say about "all things Cap", but he didn´t have as much influence in all things Marvel as other writers, many industry in-jokes are about Brubaker having to change his plans every time Marvel´s next event begins.
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Post by von Bek on May 28, 2007 8:50:42 GMT -5
Except that again, Clint spent MONTHS at Wungadore, when he got back he went straight to Doc Strange and got the Ronin costume, and thus was already Ronin by the point he could have met Falcon. In the scene when Falcon speaks with Cage and the rest of the NA Ronin/Clint is in the background, and is the only one that doesn´t say anything, even Jessica Jones had an on-liner. Brubaker could have made Clint at least say something...
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Post by bendisbites on May 28, 2007 8:58:40 GMT -5
As opposed to "WWHulk hasn't even started yet, but perhaps if it features nonsensical plots and stunningly bad characterization, you will find it more to your tastes that you initially thought." Which is apparantly not a cheap shot? I'm going to drop the issue now bendisbites, but I made a snide remark, I didn't turn it into a maor bullet point. I'm sure you will respond to this, but snide remarks are fine. You and many of your debaters use them and as such, they're fair game. But attacking things like spelling errors is not the same thing. People use their smarts as a tool sometimes, to deflect an argument---like if I said "camarros are better cars because of the fuel injected engine" and then you said "if you so much about camaros, you should be able to spell it." that just has a different connotation---you're not challenging my knowledge of camaros and you're not challenging my argument. even if you guys get heated and nasty, there's still some rules of decorum. shoot, even in the UFC they don't allow the fighters to fishhook eyes and mouths, although a headbutt to unconsciousness is fine. They all hurt, but some moves are cheaper than others.
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Post by von Bek on May 28, 2007 9:04:55 GMT -5
Nah, dude. Arguments get heated and people get a little messy with each other but you made a mistake into a bulletpoint, which was wholly lame and weak so I smited ya. Feel free to go to the mods, but I ain't apologizing or taking it back. Apparantly we have wildly different standards in terms of what earns a smite but sure thing, of course you have a right to your own. You misspelled "appar ently" again...
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Post by von Bek on May 28, 2007 9:17:19 GMT -5
RSC, back to that sheep point. I'm one of the fogies, but I tend to have a little more optimism. While I tend to agree that Marvel is taking what, in our opinion, is a negative turn, holding out hope isn't the same as being sheep. I don´t think it´s about optimism, but rather about RSC´s opinion. If he called the "young folks" jerks or assh--es, I would have been against it too, but in this case he´s the right to post his opinion that many Marvel readers behave like... sheeps. It´s a valid point. But I do agree with you that sheep loving is gross.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 28, 2007 14:21:31 GMT -5
RSC, back to that sheep point. I'm one of the fogies, but I tend to have a little more optimism. While I tend to agree that Marvel is taking what, in our opinion, is a negative turn, holding out hope isn't the same as being sheep. I don´t think it´s about optimism, but rather about RSC´s opinion. If he called the "young folks" jerks or assh--es, I would have been against it too, but in this case he´s the right to post his opinion that many Marvel readers behave like... sheeps. It´s a valid point. But I do agree with you that sheep loving is gross. as long as we can agree on the most important point. When it comes to sheep lovin' just say no.
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Post by balok on May 28, 2007 14:32:53 GMT -5
Boy, this thread has gotten off track. We're supposed to be discussing Marvel's mishandling of Captain America (the title) here, folks!
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 28, 2007 14:57:15 GMT -5
(Unfortunately for Balok, sales, critical opinion and Hell, the opinion of the vast majority of the internet are against him. But that's never stopped him before, guys!)
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Post by von Bek on May 28, 2007 15:29:37 GMT -5
Follow Nutcase´s advice, just say no.
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Post by balok on May 28, 2007 20:28:32 GMT -5
(Unfortunately for Balok, sales, critical opinion and Hell, the opinion of the vast majority of the internet are against him. But that's never stopped him before, guys!) Nope. Because I don't need to have other people agree with me to validate my opinions. Perhaps you do; you seem to sink your teeth in when people disagree with you as through it were a personal affront.
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Post by redstatecap on May 29, 2007 12:15:28 GMT -5
Firstly, I find it interesting that the bigger Cap fan here apparantly does not know how to correctly spell "Faustus". Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Cap appeared little if at all in #22-23. Cap appeared substantially in #24. Therefore the point stands. Of course it would have been out-of-place in #26, as it needed to be explained before, not after Cap's death. And Mr. Brubaker is the one writing the story, so it was ultimately in his power to plan out the issues so it was possible to expound on Faustas' resurrection before it impinged on the CW story. And even so, with little of any import going on in his CW arc, it would have been perfectly feasible to do so anyways. The fact that he did not simply represents poor planning. Which does nothing to address the fact that bringing up that Clint was Ronin is totally irrelevant to the story of Clint's reaction to Cap's death. "Ronin" does not need to be referenced at all. It's equally possible that it's just a case of poorly executed continuity as has happened throughout Civil War. And if Clint's reaction is for New Avengers, then why isn't Iron Man's reaction for Mighty Avengers as well? Why isn't Cage's reaction a subject for New Avengers? Just about every Avenger got panel time and a speaking role in Mr. Brubaker's story, except Clint, who is without question the closest to Cap of all of these characters. See, that's where I believe that certain fans, as well as Mr. Brubaker himself, are going wrong with this story. Cap is almost being treated as an expendible vehicle to tell stories about his supporting cast. That is total crap. The book is about Captain America, not Sharon, Nick Fury, the Falcon, or "Bucky" busting heads and angsting amongst themselves. I know that Ed Brubaker does not like Diamondback and has no plans to use her (per his own statements) so I understand that seeing that is outside the realm of possibility. It would make sense, and it would be a good story if not to the extent as a story with Clint, but it just won't happen. On the other hand, seeing a story about Clint was eminently possible. He was in fact already present in the comic. He was available to use, but the opportunity was forfeited. And such is your right. It's equally my right to criticize things I don't like. And the depths of your ability to ignore reason and good taste to justify Marvel's party line boggles my mind. You have a brain but you function as a shill. I don't understand that quality of comic fans as a whole. Would not. "Cap's funeral is a distraction in the main book." Do you also believe that prior appearances of Captain America within the title "Captain America" were distractions and extraneous to telling stories about Sharon, Sam, Nick, "Bucky," and others? The only reason any important content is in "Fallen Son" is to give the sheep a reason to buy it. Period. It's not for any other story reason. And on other issues you sound like a paid advocate. Ed Brubaker is better on Cap in certain areas than Mark Gruenwald. His characterization, broadly speaking, is more appropriate for Cap's background. His willingness to use deadly force to win is more appropriate. He is generally a more talented writer of dialogue. On the other hand, Guenwald typically managed to write great stories without relying on shock or gimmicks. His work was usually fun, fast-paced, and exciting. The heart of his Cap/Diamondback story was fantastic, far better than Mr. Brubaker's retread Cap/Sharon story. His work was much more about creation than destruction. The landscape of the Cap title and in particular the supporting cast to this day are legacies primarily of his efforts. If I could mix the two writers I might be happy. Pardon me for believing that the Captain America title was about, you know, Captain America.Which is my point. If a plot point is stupid for one writer whose work you are not impressed with, it's stupid for a writer whose work you are impressed with. You may quite understandably prefer one's execution over the other; that's legitimate. But fans of Ed Brubaker who excuse or even applaud such plot points while he simulataneously discredits them elsewhere as "stupid" are just being hypocritical. "Fallen Son" is a cash-in. It has no other reason to exist. Any important content should have been in the Cap title and is only in "Fallen Son" to give the sheep a reason to buy it, Not only is "Fallen Son" an extraneous cash-in, it is a poorly-written extraneous cash-in. #1 was the obligatory Wolverine appearance -- a character with almost zero relation to Cap. Wolverine is, himself, a cash-in and the story was pointless. #2 was total garbage with a throwaway goon-fight for the Mighty Avengers and zero introspection on their part, while New Avengers played poker and moped, with zero introspection on their part. #3 was better than #2 at least, but the only real content is Hawkeye giving the Cap suit a spin. Hawkeye's role was poorly written and Iron Man continues to be written as Fascist Tony, although there is at least no surprise there. #4 and 5 remain, but I fully expect a continuation of the pathetic, thrown-together cash-in that 1, 2, and 3 were. Any important content, notably Cap's funeral and Hawkeye's appearance, is utterly wasted on this pile of trash. Wrong. First, Bucky had no idea that Cap had discovered plans for an air attack. Go back and read the comic or at least the review. Second, even if Bucky made a spectacular leap of logic in deducing that Cap, whom he (Bucky) didn't know was present, was trying to stop an air attack that he (Bucky) didn't know was going to happen, the scene still fails because there is no reason as written not to shoot Lukin anyways. "Bucky" has Lukin in his crosshairs with only a 2-pound trigger squeeze between The Red Lukin and a long dirt nap. He sees the blimp on fire, and omniscently knows that Cap is on it despite no information whatsoever to support that. OK, rather than a)taking an extra half-second to shoot the Red Lukin and then going off to chase a flaming blimp that he can't do anything about, he instead throws away the chance to shoot Lukin, and goes off to chase a flaming blimp he can't do anything about. It's a poorly-thought-out scene, plain and simple. RSC
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Post by von Bek on May 29, 2007 13:03:48 GMT -5
Ed Brubaker is better on Cap in certain areas than Mark Gruenwald. His characterization, broadly speaking, is more appropriate for Cap's background. His willingness to use deadly force to win is more appropriate. I don´t see how the willingness to use deadly force to win is appropriate for Captain America at all. We already have ultra violent characters in the MU (Wolverine, Punisher) to whom Cap has always been a counterpoint. Captain America was the one who wouldn´t use lethal force; one of the few things that BENDIS! got right in HoM was that even recognizing the Scarlet Witch as a menace CA was against killing her. To make him more violent was just an attempt to turn him into Ultimate CA-lite, hoping that this would bring the Ultimates readers to the book.
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