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Post by Black Knight on Apr 2, 2007 14:28:32 GMT -5
The thing is Steve Rogers was the fallible human being, he could handle relationships, in fact he had a hard time handling anything in his private life. As Captain America he was as close to perfect a human could be. In the end it makes him the most human. A man unable to handle his life, can do almost anything when given a mask. And truthfully, that has so much more interesting then, oh his family died, and he can't handle the weight of being a hero, blah, blah, blah that marvel seems to spew now.
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 2, 2007 16:32:23 GMT -5
maybe just tar and feathers... now let's see if I can change your mind. first of the heroes there, Quicksilver Firebird, Black Knight and Cap, Thor is obviously most close to Cap. Ok, but he didn´t even mention the others... that was a little odd. He would at least think of Quicksilver and BK as his Brothers-in-Arms too... I think here is where we part ways. I like CA as Steve Rogers, the human being. You seem to like him better as some kind of perfect role model that even a God would worship. And Thor the norse Thundergod almost crying and all freaked out because of what the Presence did (he must have seen worse things happen to friends) was also a bit weird. It was out of character for him to be so melodramatic, but good point about the Valhalla bit, close to what Shiryu said. And if idolizing Cap is wrong then I don't want to be right. See my comment about what we expect from the character. the same Quicksilver who tried to kill him and the rest of the Avengers a couple of times? I think he might not hold him in the same esteem as Cap. And I don't think he expects the same from BK and Pietro that he does from Cap. And you don't have to think that Thor would hold Cap in such high esteem, but what other human warrior has Thor stood alongside for so long and so closely? I think he looks at Cap like a brother and not just a comrade in arms and losing a brother in such a way might be the cause of a well spring of emotion. In any case, I liked it. And thought the quote was relevant insofar as the death of Cap as it was hyped just didn't suit the character. And I'll just echo my previous statement and exalt BK for his explanation about Cap as well. He can be the perfect Captain America because he's so lousy at being Steve Rogers. Really if you think about the character being Cap is the only thing he does well.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 2, 2007 17:21:56 GMT -5
Thor as Siegfried? Don´t remember that. It’s in Thor #300 (evidently it started in #299 or earlier, but I don’t have the preceding issues). It was out of character for him to be so melodramatic By Odin’s beard, thou dost surely jest!
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 2, 2007 19:03:21 GMT -5
Zounds...!!! I do miss so the God of Thunder waxing Asgardianese in pseudo-Shakespearean dialogue...! It might have made no sense, but it was his gig, by the World-Tree...!!!
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Post by redstatecap on Apr 2, 2007 21:57:55 GMT -5
Maybe JMS will make an artistically courageous decision and bring Thor back talking like The Dude from Big Lebowski.
RSC
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Post by von Bek on Apr 3, 2007 12:40:34 GMT -5
And you don't have to think that Thor would hold Cap in such high esteem, but what other human warrior has Thor stood alongside for so long and so closely? Iron Man? The real one, not the current Tony Stalin. I think he looks at Cap like a brother and not just a comrade in arms and losing a brother in such a way might be the cause of a well spring of emotion. In any case, I liked it. And thought the quote was relevant insofar as the death of Cap as it was hyped just didn't suit the character. And I'll just echo my previous statement and exalt BK for his explanation about Cap as well. He can be the perfect Captain America because he's so lousy at being Steve Rogers. Really if you think about the character being Cap is the only thing he does well. Well, I prefer Cap as a human being too, like in the Englehart days, just to stay with one example. And how (and why) a 'lousy' Rogers can be a perfect Cap?
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 3, 2007 14:33:17 GMT -5
He was never "lousy" he was just human, he did not understand how to deal with relationships, or friendships like most humans don't. But he understood how to be Captain America.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 4, 2007 12:38:08 GMT -5
He was never "lousy" he was just human, he did not understand how to deal with relationships, or friendships like most humans don't. But he understood how to be Captain America. I would say he understood very well how to deal with friendship, that's why Bucky's death meant so much to him. And he didn't always understand how to be Cap, see the Secret Empire arc for that.
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 4, 2007 13:43:30 GMT -5
I was refering to people who where friends of just Steve Rogers, and did not know he was Captain America, he has always had a horrible time with them, and relationships with woman.
As for the Secret Empire, everyone has moments of disallusionment, even Captain America. One story does not a trend make.
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 4, 2007 15:04:20 GMT -5
And you don't have to think that Thor would hold Cap in such high esteem, but what other human warrior has Thor stood alongside for so long and so closely? Iron Man? The real one, not the current Tony Stalin. I think he looks at Cap like a brother and not just a comrade in arms and losing a brother in such a way might be the cause of a well spring of emotion. In any case, I liked it. And thought the quote was relevant insofar as the death of Cap as it was hyped just didn't suit the character. And I'll just echo my previous statement and exalt BK for his explanation about Cap as well. He can be the perfect Captain America because he's so lousy at being Steve Rogers. Really if you think about the character being Cap is the only thing he does well. Well, I prefer Cap as a human being too, like in the Englehart days, just to stay with one example. And how (and why) a 'lousy' Rogers can be a perfect Cap? because Steve Rogers is a man with 1940s values in a current world. he understands computers and reality TV, but he longs for radio comedies and big bands. he believes more in his mission than his personal life. he's completely battle ready and a master strategist, but has only had a few deep relationships with women and invariably his lifestyle comes between them. ever met someone who became a mom at 17 and was excellent at being a mother? and then when the kids left had no idea what to do with their life because every moment was spent being this other part of their personality? that's how Cap can be great at being Cap and lousy at being himself. his other part of his life has taken such precedence that he's ignored developing himself in other ways. you may prefer the Englehart Cap, but I think waid touched on what I'm talking about here and I recall reading one of his plans had he stayed on the book was to have Cap try to groom a successor and realize that maybe he needed to be Cap more than the identity needed to be him. again, a very interesting tack to me. but preference is preference and you're gonna like what you like. but I prefer this style of Cap; it's different from a lot of other heroes and compelling to me. And while I think Thor holds Tony's friendship in high regard--as high as Cap--I don't believe he sees him to be the same in terms of being a true warrior. A fine warrior and good ally, one he trusts implicitly, but not as much a true warrior.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 5, 2007 0:53:27 GMT -5
In the beginning, Thor & Iron Man were shown to be closer to each other among the Big Three, so much so that they new each other's civilian identities a while before Cap or the rest of the Avengers knew them, but I think it's obvious that, as time went by, Thor developed a respect, admiration & even love for Cap which is now unparalleled among the mortals he knows...
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Post by Alchemist-X on Apr 10, 2007 15:53:26 GMT -5
I was refering to people who where friends of just Steve Rogers, and did not know he was Captain America, he has always had a horrible time with them, and relationships with woman. As for the Secret Empire, everyone has moments of disallusionment, even Captain America. One story does not a trend make. One story does not make a trend. I will now channel that logic into absolving Tony Stark of everything he did during Civil War. One story does not make a trend. As for Cap being More than perfect, If he was really more than Perfect He would have stayed with the Government during Civil War and fixed things from the inside. Civil War was at least partially his fault, something he seems to dodge all blame for, but it is a solid example of his own flawed character.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 12, 2007 12:15:44 GMT -5
Anybody else remembers a song by Jimmy Buffett which goes:
"Captain America we love you! Captain America you're grand...! Oh Spiro Agnew eat your heart out...! Captain America's our man!"
...?
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 13, 2007 10:51:55 GMT -5
I was refering to people who where friends of just Steve Rogers, and did not know he was Captain America, he has always had a horrible time with them, and relationships with woman. As for the Secret Empire, everyone has moments of disallusionment, even Captain America. One story does not a trend make. One story does not make a trend. I will now channel that logic into absolving Tony Stark of everything he did during Civil War. One story does not make a trend. As for Cap being More than perfect, If he was really more than Perfect He would have stayed with the Government during Civil War and fixed things from the inside. Civil War was at least partially his fault, something he seems to dodge all blame for, but it is a solid example of his own flawed character. Lets not get into that, because there is a lot of Iron Man stories that could be shown as leading to this. Not the least of which is the Armour Wars.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 13, 2007 13:11:26 GMT -5
There are a lot of Cap stories that also show the character as less than perfect too, and not just during the great Englehart days.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 15, 2007 5:24:46 GMT -5
Anybody else remembers a song by Jimmy Buffett which goes: "Captain America we love you! Captain America you're grand...! Oh Spiro Agnew eat your heart out...! Captain America's our man!" ...? I guess we don't have any parrotheads around...
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