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Post by bobc on Jul 6, 2009 9:19:04 GMT -5
I used to call Deathcry Birdbrain. She was such a cheap character.
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 7, 2009 17:08:39 GMT -5
I used to call Deathcry Birdbrain. She was such a cheap character. Oh boy, she sure was. Was Harras the writer that brought her in and/or created her? Introduced as a young, ruthless, no-nonsense Shiar warrior who's clearly been around the ol' carnal block a couple of times (note her attempted seduction of Vision), and then about five issues later has a complete and unexplained personality transplant, and becomes a 16-year-old wise-cracking valley girl who has a completely assimilated knowledge of the pop trends, current entertainment, fads, and the idiosyncratic language of that tribe. Aaaaaaand she'd never been on earth before. Aaaaaaand she and Hercules were heading for a wild fling. Aaaaaaand then, as always, it didn't really matter, 'cause a re-boot happened, and all inconvenient plot issues just. . . evaporated. (Thank god for the re-boot, though. It was worth the continuity troubles. . . ) HB
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 7, 2009 17:32:22 GMT -5
I chatted on this thread quite a bit recently, and never did get around to naming a "least favorite" Avenger, as it turns out. Deathcry really isn't my least fave, much as I didn't care for her. Now there are still hairs that could be split, I daresay. Is Least Favorite the Avenger whose personality you like the least? Or is it the least effective member overall? Or one that was actually a bad guy, or what? Maybe there should be a caveat that we're only referring to Avengers that were active for more than, like, three issues? (D-man, Sandman, Original Torch-- there are several that are kinda like no-shows on the roster).
But I'm gonna stick my neck out and say Mr. Fantastic & the Invisible Woman. To this day, I don't understand what was going on with the writers and editors, thinking that this was a good idea. Truly, give me Gilgamesh, Deathcry, Silverclaw, Sersi, Ares, and Sentry before putting Reed & Sue back on the team. (Dr. Druid would be the only one that may give me pause in this potential trade. . . but I'll still hold firm). Very, very, very fond of the two of them, lord knows, but they couldn't have been a worse fit. PARTICULARY Reed. In fact, I wonder if Sue might have worked better on her own? Ah well. . . who can say. . .
HB
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Post by scottharris on Jul 7, 2009 18:30:01 GMT -5
To this day, I don't understand what was going on with the writers and editors, thinking that this was a good idea. It's my understanding that Reed and Sue being available was one of the main reasons Walt Simonson agreed to take over Avengers. Since Englehart had written Reed and Sue out of FF (I think that's right, I wasn't reading FF at the time), the characters were available. When Stern quit Avengers in protest of Gru's mandate that Captain America replace Captain Marvel as team leader, Simonson was lured to Avengers with the understanding that he would be allowed to use Reed and Sue as full time Avengers. He then spent 10 issues setting this up, with Reed and Sue finally joining in #300, only to be immediately told that editorial had changed their minds and Reed and Sue were being sent back to FF. At this point, Englehart blew his stack at having HIS plans overturned and at having editorial force Reed and Sue back on him, so HE quit FF -- and Simonson replaced him so that he at least could finish up his plans for Reed and Sue even if it was in FF instead of Avengers. I think Simonson was more interested in Reed, Sue and FF than Avengers to begin with and had only taken the Avengers gig because he wanted to write Reed and Sue, so this worked out fine for him -- but for the reader, the entire thing seemed weird, pointless and lame, with a huge buildup to absolutely nothing and the result that the Avengers and its creative team were both left in shambles. Thanks to this jerking around, we went from one of the all-time acclaimed Avengers runs (by Stern) to a rotating mess of creators and characters that the book never fully recovered from until Heroes Return and Busiek/Perez. Chalk up another victory for editorial policy! To see the point of Reed and Sue joining Avengers, you can check out Simonson's FF run, which included some of this plotlines for Avengers, mainly the Kang Council storyline he had built up in his Disassembled storyline from Avengers #291-297.
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 7, 2009 20:37:15 GMT -5
Boy, Scott, this explains a LOT. I now very much remember Walt Simonson's bouncing around-- but of course at the time I took it to mean that a) He was having focus/commitment issues now that his Thor glory days were passed, and/or b) sales were dropping due to the unpopular direction both books (FF & Avengers) seemed to have taken, and there was panic at the helm. Kind of the latter, I suppose-- but this account really lays the burden solidly upon editorial interference and intransigence. Bad combo. What's unfortunate is that I don't think Walt ever had a good feel for writing the FF, and especially not Reed or Sue. He had that grand, sprawling "Reed the Chrononaut and His Timesled" arc-thingy going-- but the characterization was so wooden and one-dimensional that for all of its wild plot points and grand concepts, it was just dull as dry toast. Same with the multiple-villain courtroom drama-- "You're kiddin', right". The magic he worked in Thor just never struck fire, IMO, in either the Avengers or the FF (quite the opposite), which is just too bad. And yep, it was a long time before either title recovered.
Great job on the Sharkar-like backstory, there, Scott!
HB
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Post by bobc on Jul 8, 2009 9:57:41 GMT -5
Yeah I had no idea any of that stuff was going on--thanks Scott. I just went back and looked at the covers from that era--and honestly I thought the stuff Simonson wrote was okay up until Gilgamesh and Reed/Sue joined up--and after that I don't really remember many of the stories. You know back in those days I noticed artists waaaay more than writers. One thing that really just struck me was how mediocre a writer John Byrne was. I never really noticed that before. He should have stuck to drawing.
Hey Scott--since you seem to know way more than I do about behind the scenes stuff--what's the deal about Byrne becoming a writer? He never wrote that early X-Men stuff did he? He just drew it, correct? When did he make the jump to writing?
You know after looking at all those back covers and finally taking note of who wrote what, I think Stern is far and away the best writer for the "middle years" of the Avengers, along with Kurt Busiek. Those are the stories that were, to me, extremely memorable.
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Post by scottharris on Jul 8, 2009 10:54:45 GMT -5
Hey Scott--since you seem to know way more than I do about behind the scenes stuff--what's the deal about Byrne becoming a writer? He never wrote that early X-Men stuff did he? He just drew it, correct? When did he make the jump to writing? I don't know all that much about X-Men history, but I believe Byrne actually did have a hand in the plotting of many of those X-Men storylines. It's my understanding that as the series progressed, he took a more active role, to the point of almost co-plotting the series with Claremont. I recently read over on the Comics Should Be Good blog about a list of plotlines that Byrne had cooked up for future X-Men issues before he left the title -- plots that would have taken them through #150, several issues after he ended up actually leaving the book. I forget the details -- something about a robot Cyclops and some Wolverine stuff. As far as when he made the jump to writing, though, I actually just read about this as well on the same blog. Seems that he wrote a 2-issue story in Fantastic Four, a good while before his regular run. But it wasn't written for FF at all -- it was intended to be a promotional comic sponsored by (iirc) Coke. They objected to some of the violence in the comic (which seems weird to me; what's the point in commissioning an FF story if you don't want anyone to fight in it?) so the project was canceled, leading to it being used as a sort of fill-in on the real FF title instead. As far as I know, this was Byrne's first gig as writer as well as artist. Perhaps sharkar or someone else could shed more light on Byrne's writing career. When I have the time I'll try to track down the links to the blog entries I mentioned.
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Post by bobc on Jul 8, 2009 11:36:22 GMT -5
Thanks Scott.
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Post by scottharris on Jul 8, 2009 23:47:52 GMT -5
I've looked into it a little bit further, and from what i can tell, Byrne and Claremont were at each other's throats quite a bit throughout their run on X-Men, disagreeing quite a bit on plot points and character arcs. I'm not sure he can be counted as a full co-plotter, but from what I gather he wanted to be a co-plotter but had to fight with Claremont to get his ideas in the book. As far as I can tell, that FF fill-in two-parter was his first writing work; towards the end of his run on X-Men, he also began drawing Captain America and is credited as co-plotter along with Roger Stern. He then left both titles to take over FF as writer and artist. Here's the link to some of Byrne's abandoned plotlines from when he left X-Men (it's the second story). Who knows how many of these Claremont would have ended up agreeing to: goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/09/28/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-70/And here's the one about his first FF story (third one down): goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/04/27/comic-book-urban-legend-revealed-48/As a bonus, a detailed explanation of Byrne's original plans for the Dark Wanda story in WCA (which actually sounds kind of cool): goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/05/18/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-51/
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Post by bobc on Jul 9, 2009 8:41:40 GMT -5
Thanks Scott--I kind of lost track of Byrne in the 90's, after reading that Hidden Years stuff on the X-Men, which was pretty bad, and then Spiderman (only read one issue and that was more than enough).
I have had several friends who work in comics tell me that Byrne is a real jerk and that he yells at people on his website--and one friend thinks Byrne has basically lost his mind. Sad, really, for a guy who worked on some of Marvel's best comic runs (early New X-Men) in the 70's.
Is Chris Claremont still around? I heard he and Byrne hate each other--but a lot of artists do their best work while at each others' throats (Fleetwood Mac, Beatles, Labelle, ect). Artists tend to be temperamental
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Post by sharkar on Jul 9, 2009 10:13:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the links and info, Scott. I'd agree that during the Claremont-Byrne X-Men collaboration, after a while (not surprisingly) there were power struggles between the two. It's probably inevitable anytime strong-willed, creative individuals are involved. And as in many work environments , there were charges of favoritism: Salicrup supposedly favored and encouraged Byrne to do more, while editor L. Simonson supposedly gave more weight to the writer of any given series. Both guys also butted heads with Mr. Shooter at times (though they later acknowledged that Shooter's insistence that Jean/Phoenix die is what put the X-Men--and by extension, Claremont and Byrne--on the map). BTW, it could be said that Byrne is the one we have to thank for keeping Wolverine on the radar. Supposedly at some point fairly early on tptb wanted to get rid of Wolvie (or reduce his role) but Byrne refused to abandon Marvel's only Canadian character (Byrne hailing from Canada and all...) CLARIFICATION/EDIT: British-born, but moved to Canada with his family when he was a kid) As for the Coke story that was used for FF #220-221 (1980): as far as I know, the first "official" Marvel writing credit Byrne received was for a Thing story for Marvel Two-in-One #50 (April 1979). Despite its earlier publication date, I'm not sure if this Thing story was actually written before or after the Coke story. (The Thing story--which Byrne also penciled-- is pretty good; it's about Ben and an alternate world Ben. Byrne later wrote a follow up story about this that appeared in the last issue of MTiO, #100, with Ron Wilson art.) So how did he become the FF's writer/artist? From what I've read, Byrne wanted to write more and eic Shooter offered him the FF (because Doug Moench was about to leave it). The FF's artist at the time was Bill Sienkiewicz, so Byrne would handle the writing only. But then Shooter wanted Sienk on another assignment (Moon Knight with Moench?). Anyway, this game of musical chairs left Byrne as the logical choice to do the art for FF. He'd had an earlier stint as the FF's artist, mostly doing breakdowns (Sinnott provided the finishes/inks)...but now Byrne was now essentially a one-man FF machine: writer, penciler (full pencils), and often inker. I have the FF Visionaries: John Byrne series (volumes 1-8) and it's like reading chapters in a loooong and very multilayered novel. I just read these volumes a couple of years ago or so and I was surprised I liked these as much as I did! The 20th anniversary issue of the FF, #236, has one of the best stories ("Terror in a Tiny Town") I've ever read in a comic, it has everything: FF history, Dr. Doom, great characterizations and dialogue, pathos, etc. I admit I am not a huge fan of his art...but IMO his writing (at least here) is top notch: the plots, subplots, characterizations, dialogue--all very compelling.
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Post by bobc on Jul 9, 2009 10:28:07 GMT -5
I've seen the movie "Terror of Tiny Town" --any relation?
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Post by sharkar on Jul 9, 2009 10:50:32 GMT -5
Bob, I haven't seen the movie but yes, in interviews, Byrne has said he used that movie as an inspiration for the FF story...though from what I gather, the movie was a farce of sorts and the FF story is quite poignant. The FF's (and Alicia's) souls are trapped in tiny "puppets" in a tiny city (courtesy of the Puppet Master and Doom).
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Post by bobc on Jul 9, 2009 11:10:44 GMT -5
He really said that? I own "Terror of Tiny Town!!" It is a cowboy musical from the thirties starring an all midget cast. It is just awful. I love it!
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Post by starfoxxx on Jul 9, 2009 15:21:24 GMT -5
I like to believe that Byrne was another victim of the 90's dearth----and he was just trying to keep up with the "Extreme" writers and artists of the time, in effect, lowering his standards and quality of his work.
Another example that very recently surprised me..... I was leafing through some 90's comics at a "book warehouse" and checked out Guardians of the Galaxy #28. This issue is Avengers-centric, as it's Doc Ock's Masters of Evil attacking Avengers Mansion (in the future, I think). Anyway, the artist is Herb Trimpe, who I remember from the 70's and 80's as a decent, if forgettable artist. Well, ol' Herb adopted the Jim Lee/Liefeld/etc. 90's style for this ish, and it is GOD-AWFUL!!!!! or maybe the inker TOTALLY sabotaged poor Herb, but it reminded me of how it seemed like just about EVERY creator sold-out during the (first) low period of comic-bookdom.
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Post by scottharris on Jul 9, 2009 15:48:59 GMT -5
Anyway, the artist is Herb Trimpe, who I remember from the 70's and 80's as a decent, if forgettable artist. Well, ol' Herb adopted the Jim Lee/Liefeld/etc. 90's style for this ish, and it is GOD-AWFUL!!!!! or maybe the inker TOTALLY sabotaged poor Herb, but it reminded me of how it seemed like just about EVERY creator sold-out during the (first) low period of comic-bookdom. Now, Herb Trimpe is an interesting story. You're absolutely right, in the 90's Herb went to a Liefeld style of art, with everything exaggerated to the Nth degree and billions of little crosshatchings instead of solid inks. And it sucked. He began getting less and less work at Marvel during this time period, and eventually he was fired after 29 years at the company (and it was handled very badly, as he was fired by form letter -- here's a really interesting and pretty sad account of Marvel's mid-90's implosion that Herb wrote for the New York Times in 1996: www.hulklibrary.com/hulk/info/news-herbtrimpefired.asp ). I have heard a number of times that Herb was basically forced to adopt this "kewl" style by editorial, making his subsequent firing seem even worse. However, on the same site I've quoted a few times in this thread, they actually talked to Herb directly on this subject and it turns out that Herb changed his style on his own. In fact, he actually thinks that work is some of his best stuff! Here's the quote and link: "I’ve been asked that question before, with some fans going so far as to feel sorry for the way Marvel made me change my style. Unfortunately, these were misdirected sympathies. Truth was, it was a lark–but a lark with a purpose, all devised by myself. No one at Marvel suggested I change the way I draw or ink. I looked at the new guys’ stuff, and thought, hey, this is great. Very exciting. You can always learn from somebody else, no matter how long you’ve been doing a thing. I did, however, think the style might lead to new work at a time when Marvel was already in trouble, and it did. FF Unlimited was my last series at Marvel, and contrary to what a lot of fans think, I think it was the best work I’d done–and, I had a whole lot of fun doing it. Very expressive. I think the newer influences in comic book art brought out a better me. Like I said, most of the fans of the earlier stuff would not agree. On one occasion, I inked a whole story with a brush, which is what I was raised on, and the editor objected asking me not to do that anymore. But in general, no one pressured me into a change." goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/02/19/comic-book-legends-revealed-195/
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Post by sharkar on Jul 9, 2009 18:08:46 GMT -5
He really said that? I own "Terror of Tiny Town!!" It is a cowboy musical from the thirties starring an all midget cast. It is just awful. I love it! Yes, it was supposedly a starting-off point. I recall reading more than once that it was actually ed.-in-chief Shooter who suggested the movie to Byrne...but it sounds like the only thing Byrne really used from the movie was a similar title, as I can assure you there are no cowboys of any size in FF #236. I also recall Byrne has said that the X-Men's Days of Future Past was inspired by a favorite Dr. Who episode of his. Then there's an X-Men story (IIRC #143) that was supposed to be somewhat based on the movie Alien. (Not surprising--artists/creators/writers/others since time immemorial have looked to a variety of sources for inspiration.) And Shooter suggesting the movie makes sense to me, because that was part of his "comics education" when he was writing DC stories for Mort Weisinger. Weisinger liked his writers to use popular and classic movies, novels, stories, TV shows, etc., as inspiration. Take a look at the 1960s Legion series, for example, and you'll see 30th century versions of Moby Dick, Stalag 17, the Dirty Dozen, Fantastic Voyage, etc. I remember a reader wrote in and accused DC of plagiarizing a short story for one of its recent Legion stories. In response (in the letter column) Weisinger wrote yeah, we deliberately based it on that story, we always like to adapt good stories for our readers, etc...and he then proceeded to ask fans to send in suggestions of other literary/cinematic/classic material they'd like to see adapted for future Legion stories!
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Post by bobc on Jul 10, 2009 8:26:34 GMT -5
Well Sharker--Queen of Comics Trivia--speaking of "inspired by," do you know the pop culture reference in the title "Days of Future Past?"
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Post by sharkar on Jul 10, 2009 10:31:55 GMT -5
Gee, do you suppose Byrne and Claremont were feeling moody or blue when they created their epic?
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Post by bobc on Jul 10, 2009 15:17:22 GMT -5
VERY GOOD!!! I should have known better than to challenge your encyclopedic knowledge of all pop culture! I stand B-slapped!
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Post by sharkar on Jul 13, 2009 11:11:53 GMT -5
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Post by bobc on Jul 13, 2009 13:17:04 GMT -5
I like it! That song is a Moody Blues hit that you never really hear anymore, so it's nice to hear it.
My two favorite MB songs are the spooky "Knights in White Satin" and "For My Lady." I'm really surprised the Dungeons and Dragons crowd hasn't discovered "For My Lady"--it really has that Midieval sound and lyrics:
"Oh I'd give my life so lightly for my gentle lady give it freely and completely for my lady"
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 13, 2009 13:42:17 GMT -5
Ha! Hahahahahaaa! How did we get here?? Howwwwww did we get here? These are the BEST. TANGENTS. EVER!! IKYN!! (I just made that acronym up, for- "I Kid You Not!") Favorite Moody Blues Songs from Least Favorite Avenger? Supplanting the discussion of '30's midget-exploitation films? And the beauty of it is that no one's ever rude or dismissive. . . what a lovely utopia we have here. . . For the record, that sweet middle part in The Question is without a doubt my favorite. Usually makes me cry. ('Course, I cry easily with music-- don't know why--) HB
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Post by bobc on Jul 13, 2009 14:03:49 GMT -5
I'll take full responsibility for the incoherence of this thread. My brain is like a pop-corn popper. Remember there's a thin line between artistic genius and insanity and I am pretty sure I know which side of the fence I landed on.
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Post by sharkar on Jul 13, 2009 15:02:51 GMT -5
LOL! For those who may have wondered, Bob and I were alluding to the Moody Blues' "Days of Future Passed" as being the inspiration for the title of Claremont/Byrne's "Days of Future Past"... and it just spiralled from there.
Though I guess I really should come up with a least favorite Avenger one of these days...
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Post by bobc on Jul 13, 2009 15:16:24 GMT -5
See HB? Sharky and I had ingeniously woven complex threads of related information to the original topic, which dazzled you to the point where you were momentarily dizzied. Take a deep breath and simply review our incisive posts, and try to absorb rare insights into all things Marvel.
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 13, 2009 19:48:52 GMT -5
See HB? Sharky and I had ingeniously woven complex threads of related information to the original topic, which dazzled you to the point where you were momentarily dizzied. Take a deep breath and simply review our incisive posts, and try to absorb rare insights into all things Marvel. Yes, yes. You're right, of course. And in fact I had forgotten that my least favorite Avenger was that time-traveling, bi-polar, sharp-shooting Munchkin cowboy, "The Cerulean Kid", who appeared in the bottom left corner of the 9th panel on page 5 in SALT LAKE AVENGERS #1. I thought the treatment of his personality disorder was a tad shallow-- really missed the mark. . . . (sigh). Hey, hey, hey! Can I talk about Chekov some more? (Actually, I'm MUCH more keen on PG Wodehouse. . . ) Heh- youse guys are great. . . HB
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Post by bobc on Jul 14, 2009 8:29:36 GMT -5
Hee hee! The Salt Lake Avengers!! I envision a sea of possibilities! Oh wait...Utah is landlocked.
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