|
|
Post by Engage on Aug 1, 2007 15:46:43 GMT -5
It's interesting that you cite the Zodiac stories of the #120's, as they were drawn by Bob Brown; you cited him as one of your least favorite Avengers artists in another thread. I happen to find Brown's art very tolerable (which is slightly outside of "I really liked him"), so my memories of those stories aren't too negative. However, you raise an interesting point -- with the diversity of powers exhibited by the Zodiac, are they really all that different from the Ringmaster's Circus of Crime? The problem I had with the Zodiac -and the subsequent attempts to power them up to make them suitable opponents for the Avengers, is the inherent limitations to their powers. How threatening is some guy dressed as a crab, for example? The Ringmaster comparison is pretty fair... One of these days the Zodiac is going to be used in a mind-blowing story. The concept is just waiting for someone to come along and write and epic story using them. I think there's much more to the concept than to the Circus. I think they should probably make some of the Zodiac a little less literal, however. And people will always remember Bendis. No matter what happens next with the group, Bendis has shaped the last few years of Avengers history with a stronger brush than most creators before him. The directions the characters have taken and the different relationships he's played up will always be a part of the dynamic of the comic. He's also brought characters into the Avengers family who can be used to bring new aspects to the title. |
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Aug 1, 2007 18:59:08 GMT -5
Hourman --
I remarked in another thread a couple of days ago about the first appearance of the Zodiac, which I just recently re-read. Yes, sir, they sucked in that 2-parter. Although I will say I enjoyed the multi-parter in the early #120's, but in hindsight I wonder if it wasn't just Englehart's way of launching the Celestial Madonna saga and the revelation that Libra was Mantis' father...
|
|
Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
|
Post by Hourman on Aug 2, 2007 10:33:53 GMT -5
More than likely... I agree, one of these days someone is really going to reinvent the Zodiac as something powerful -so long as they stay away from the trap of making the characters too literal.
I also agree with you that the 120's appearence of the Zodiac was really a vehicle to a) get rid of Van Lundt and b) to start explaining the mystery surrounding surrounding Mantis and the Celestial Madonna, by tying Libra in.
|
|
|
|
Post by balok on Aug 27, 2007 20:47:00 GMT -5
I do maintain Bendis is probably here to stay. Mmmm…I’m waiting for him to break into film and/or television. He might never look back… More power to him if he does. Anything that gets the hack out of comics is fine by me. |
|
|
|
Post by starfoxxx on Feb 25, 2008 14:58:53 GMT -5
1. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS. 2. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS. 3. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS. 4. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS. 5. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS. Well, Bong, after reading New Avengers #38, I hope I've seen the LOWEST point in an Avengers book that hasn't delivered for me since the first "Raft" arc. I actually was a big PM/IF fan as a kid, and I found ALIAS intriguing. But 2-3 years later I can't believe Bendis has turned a title I was so excited about into ALIAS Part II. |
|
|
|
Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 20, 2008 21:27:29 GMT -5
Whoa whoa whoa, what's this about a sex scene between Jan and Hank?! Have I really been not reading comics for that long? So much for the innocent days...
Lowest point? I'd have to go with the whole Yellowjacket saga, where his whole personality changed in the span of two issues. Most of Shooter's run had these odd, darker storylines, I think the court-martial/Henry Pym's trial was the ultimate epitome of it all. Didn't like the odd change in direction one bit.
|
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Jun 21, 2008 0:19:39 GMT -5
I think it's interesting that you resurected this thread just I was thinking about where I think things went wrong. As I've mentioned before, I am in the process of rereading all my old Avengers. I am currently in the 390s. I think that the 5 year Stern run was one of the best ever (Captain Marvel, Starfox, The Vision takeover, The formation of the West Coast team, The Wasp's character development through her leadership, The Masters of Evil mansion takeover, The adventure in Olympus, etc.) At this time, the Avengers were really starting to rival the X-Men and had they continued in this vein they may have caught up in popularity. In #388, Mark Gruenwald had an editorial explaining why Stern was leaving the book. Gruenwald and Stern were working on a new direction for the book but then Stern decided it wasn't working and should be abandoned. Gruewald disagreed so he took Stern off the book in order to replace him with someone else who would go with the planned direction. From there the book ventured into the attempted Dr. Druid takeover and the storyline where the members left the team one by one and were replaced in #300 with the infamous Gilgamesh, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman lineup. The cover to #396 said "The beginning of the end" and I think that's pretty accurate. The 300s certainly had some high notes but I don't think the book really recovered to the point it was when Stern wrote the book and eventually the deminishing sales led to the Crossing and Heroes Reborn. Busiek certainly made some great strides with volume 3 but the book could never quite regain the footing it had previously had. What a shame Gruenwald didn't listen to Stern and let him take the book in another direction. After all, if the book could have had the level of popularity it deserved there would have been no need for Disassembling it. This is all just my viewpoint on the situation and I'm sure some of you will disagree but I'm throwing it out there anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 21, 2008 12:05:20 GMT -5
spiderwasp:
Ahhh yes, and what makes that line-up in #300 so pointless is that I'm pretty sure Reed and Sue weren't even on the team for that long! Didn't they leave after like, eight or nine issues after? I also never liked Gilgamesh as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by The EVIL Dr. Bolty on Jun 21, 2008 22:25:42 GMT -5
OK, I really have to ask: WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH THE HANK/JAN SEX SCENE?! I hated Johns' run and all, but the hatred for this just seems really overblown to me. It was a two-page sexual gag about shrinking powers. That's it. That merits mention above hundreds of issues worth of outright character defamation and crappy stories?
Maybe it's because I feel like one of the younger posters here - there's so much discussion on the Silver Age, and here I am at age 20 after growing up on Busiek. Maybe it's just a generational gap, but I can't see what's so outrageous about a brief dirty joke in a superhero comic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 22, 2008 13:17:13 GMT -5
OK, I really have to ask: WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH THE HANK/JAN SEX SCENE?! I hated Johns' run and all, but the hatred for this just seems really overblown to me. It was a two-page sexual gag about shrinking powers. That's it. That merits mention above hundreds of issues worth of outright character defamation and crappy stories? Maybe it's because I feel like one of the younger posters here - there's so much discussion on the Silver Age, and here I am at age 20 after growing up on Busiek. Maybe it's just a generational gap, but I can't see what's so outrageous about a brief dirty joke in a superhero comic. The EVIL Dr. Bolty: Honestly, I haven't seen it myself, but I can imagine why some people here would be a wee bit... disgusted by it? I for one, would probably find it pretty hilarious, yet at the same time would be going "Ewwwww...!" Honestly, I didn't read The Avengers because I was interested in knowing how big High Pockets' butt was! It probably also doesn't help that a lot of readers here probably grew up in the age where things like that were best kept to their imaginations... and not displayed in a 12 cents comic book! Plus, can you imagine how uncomfortable it can be for some people to be just reading a comic book and WHAM: Henry Pym butt? I personally did most of my growing in the 80's, so my tolerance is higher, and my taste is low-brow sometimes, so I probably wouldn't object to it all that much. But, I can definitely see how it would bug some people. No offense to anyone! It's not an insult, I'm just saying how different things get different reactions out of people. |
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Jun 23, 2008 9:15:36 GMT -5
OK, I really have to ask: WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH THE HANK/JAN SEX SCENE?! I hated Johns' run and all, but the hatred for this just seems really overblown to me. It was a two-page sexual gag about shrinking powers. That's it. That merits mention above hundreds of issues worth of outright character defamation and crappy stories? Maybe it's because I feel like one of the younger posters here - there's so much discussion on the Silver Age, and here I am at age 20 after growing up on Busiek. Maybe it's just a generational gap, but I can't see what's so outrageous about a brief dirty joke in a superhero comic. My good Dr. -- I, and many of our "older" posters, began buying comics off the newsstand at the ripe old age of 7. You tell me -- if you were a parent, would you want your 7-year old in possession of this magazine? Call me a stodgy old fart, but comics are no longer safe for younger readers. doctorhankpym, the issue in question is Avengers Vol. 3, issue #71.  |
|
|
|
Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 23, 2008 10:15:40 GMT -5
dlw66: Thank you! I'll certainly pick it up next time I head to my local comic shop (And that's +1 karma for dlw66!)
Ahhhh... to be 7 again! I agree with dlw66 that comic books have very much heavily matured over the years. I've seen all kinds of things I'd NEVER see in the 60's!
|
|
|
|
Post by scottharris on Jun 23, 2008 23:11:46 GMT -5
OK, I really have to ask: WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH THE HANK/JAN SEX SCENE?! I hated Johns' run and all, but the hatred for this just seems really overblown to me. It was a two-page sexual gag about shrinking powers. That's it. That merits mention above hundreds of issues worth of outright character defamation and crappy stories? Maybe it's because I feel like one of the younger posters here - there's so much discussion on the Silver Age, and here I am at age 20 after growing up on Busiek. Maybe it's just a generational gap, but I can't see what's so outrageous about a brief dirty joke in a superhero comic. The problem was that as far as dirty jokes go, it wasn't much of a joke. It was just dirty. There was nothing really funny about the way it was done, it was just tossed in there in what seemed to me a crass attempt to be edgy. If something actually funny had been done, that would have been different. But that is a really cool cover, anyway. |
|
|
|
Post by ultron69 on May 6, 2009 11:35:58 GMT -5
1. Avengers Disassembled
2. The Crossing
3. Civil War
4. Heroes Reborn
5. Disbanding of Avengers West Coast
|
|
|
|
Post by bobc on May 6, 2009 12:43:50 GMT -5
I don't remember the Crossing.
|
|
|
|
Post by ultron69 on May 6, 2009 12:58:14 GMT -5
Kang controls Iron Man. Iron Man kills some people, including Yellowjacket 2. It was bad enough to get retconned, at least partially.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobc on May 6, 2009 13:30:46 GMT -5
hmmmmm--I must have zoned on that one.
|
|
|
|
Post by ultron69 on May 6, 2009 14:54:20 GMT -5
I think your mind blocked it out, as a defense mechanism, the way some people forget childhood traumas.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobc on May 6, 2009 15:49:39 GMT -5
I had post-traumatic stress disorder after Heroes Reborn. Man when I think of that mercifully short period--I just shudder. You know what I remember most from that? The stupid costumes. I don't know why. Remember that god-awful costume for either Hawkeye or the Swordsman (I can't remember which it was), that looked like a cross between the Black Panther''s mask and Hawkeye's? Only brown? My God the suckage is off the Richter Scale.
Spellcheck is telling me "suckage" is not a real word. Apparently it hasn't read Heroes Reborn.
|
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on May 6, 2009 16:11:56 GMT -5
I don't remember the Crossing.[/quote Oh how I envy you |
|
|
|
Post by bobc on May 6, 2009 16:38:41 GMT -5
Can you jog my memory? Was that the time when the Wasp turned into that moth creature?
|
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on May 6, 2009 19:25:32 GMT -5
Yes, yes, yes-- the Wasp becoming insectile was indeed all part of that Crossing/Timeslide debacle. There was just a horrifying amount of creative death-flailing going on at that point, and all of the inexplicable plot gyrations were hastily swept out the door to get everyone off-continuity for the brilliant salvation of Heroes Reborn. Yeesh.
But the Wasp's transformation was just ridiculous. She had absolutely no reaction to it at all, and it was never explored. She ALSO had been financially ruined by Tony Stark at the same time. . . . but that seemed to magically resolve itself, as well.
Like many folks who, I imagine, are not entranced with the current state of Avengers affairs, I've been reading the entire run (well, vol's 1 & 3), and am nearly finished. The question of "Low Points" is interesting, as it can be taken from an In-Story perspective (Things like the huge Masters of Evil thread, where Jarvis was tortured, Herc crippled, Cap rendered useless, etc; or perhaps when Dr. Druid single-handedly wrecked the team from within during a mid-life crisis), or from a Creative Process perspective (Crossing/Timeslide; Walt Simonson's short tenure; the last two years. . . . ). Anyone care to revive this quasi-academic discussion, hmm?
|
|
|
|
Post by bobc on May 7, 2009 8:58:49 GMT -5
I went back and looked up The Crossing. In hindsight I guess that story arch just bored me because I barely remember it. About the only thing I remember is a big splash page of the Wasp flitting into the air in that ridiculous form, as if we were all supposed to gasp in exhilaration at the mere sight of her! That was really goofy. At that point the Avengers seemed to be drifting so I didn't take it very seriously.
Speaking of the Masters of Evil story-arch, I'd probably say that was my all-time favorite Avengers story. I also loved the Olympus story arch.
|
|
|
|
Post by ultron69 on May 7, 2009 11:48:21 GMT -5
Color me stupid, but which Masters of Evil story-arch?
|
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on May 9, 2009 6:23:50 GMT -5
I checked the cover gallery to refresh my memory. It was late 86/early 87. Issue #'s in the 270's. Jan was the chairman (which Hercules was chafing at); mansion was taken-over (for the umpteenth time); Herc got brain-damaged; Jarvis & Dane were captured and tortured; Cap's few remaining personal effects were trashed. . . . .
Rough times.
But having just finished Chaos/Disassembled last night. . . . . . . Yeesh, DEFINITELY the in-continuity low-point for the team! I was so appalled by it, that I'd already distanced it in my memory. . . . .
|
|
|
|
Post by ultron69 on May 9, 2009 10:50:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, humanbelly.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobc on May 11, 2009 8:54:28 GMT -5
Ultron--that isn't a stupid question. I'm the dummy for not specifying. I'm talking about the 80's Masters of Evil storyline where they take over Avengers Mansion. I think Roger Stern wrote it but I'm not sure--John Buscema certainly drew it!
|
|
|
|
Post by bobc on May 11, 2009 8:57:40 GMT -5
Humanbelly--most of us on this forum have already blocked Disassembled from our memories. When even the most fleeting and dim memory of Bendis rears its ugly head, I hit myself with a hammer. Sure it sounds extreme, but a hammer strike is far less painful, trust me.
|
|
|
|
Post by ultron69 on May 11, 2009 9:40:40 GMT -5
I can't even watch Bend it Like Beckham now, because the first two words sounds too much like Bendis.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobc on May 11, 2009 10:25:40 GMT -5
As Humanbelly points out--if you go back and re-read that Masters of Evil story arch, it is almost mind-boggling how much characterization was going on. You had the Wasp really coming into her own as a leader, you had her obliviousness to Dane's crush on her, and you had her using her powers in creative ways to take out the Absorbing Man and Titania was really cool for us trendy Wasp fans! Even the way Captain America came to warn Jan that something was wrong at the mansion was very creative and unusual. Man! The good old days! Makes me sad...
|
|
