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Post by dlw66 on Nov 13, 2006 15:41:35 GMT -5
Go ahead and give us your list...
Mine --
1. New Avengers/Disassembled 2. Trial of Yellowjacket 3. The Geoff Johns orchestrated sex scene with Hank/Jan 4. Al Milgrom's art run on the book in the early 1980's 5. Dr. Druid -- plot vehicle, yes, but a truly despicable character and not a fond run of stories for me.
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ozbot
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 103
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Post by ozbot on Nov 13, 2006 20:09:25 GMT -5
[quote author=dlw66 board=classicavengers thread=1163450495 3. The Geoff Johns orchestrated sex scene with Hank/Jan 5. Dr. Druid -- plot vehicle, yes, but a truly despicable character and not a fond run of stories for me.[/quote]
Thanks for the reminder with #3. Shudder. But for #5, I disagree. I think that he was never a despicable character until many years after his fall from grace (read: Warren Ellis' series). Before that, he was simply unlikeable (at worst) or unremarkable (at least.) During his time AS an Avenger, I think he added needed tension and unpredicability.
How're these? Probably no surprises. (in no particular order)
- Avengers Disassembled - Avengers post-300 (Captain, Gilgamesh, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thor) up through recruiting Rage - The Crossing - The disbanding of Avengers West Coast/creation of Force Works - Heroes Reborn
The one controverisal choice I could add would be the one story that I don't enjoy as much as other people: the original Celestial Madonna story. I actually like Mantis as a character, but only because I got to know her in the Silver Surfer's series. Years later, when I went back and read the actual CM saga, it bored me to tears.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 13, 2006 20:14:23 GMT -5
1. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS. 2. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS. 3. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS. 4. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS. 5. BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 13, 2006 20:16:16 GMT -5
Okay, now that I'm (slightly) more rational, let's try it again:
1. Civil War. 2. House of M. 3. Avengers Disassembled. 4. The Crossing. 5. Avengers Reborn.
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Post by bobc on Nov 13, 2006 21:11:00 GMT -5
Bendis and Heroes Reborn. I'm pretty sure it's not possible to get worse than those two abominations. At least I kept buying the Avengers after "Heroes Reborn." I didn't really care one way or the other about the Trial of Yellowjacket--it just seemed like one of those low ebbs that come and go.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Nov 13, 2006 21:32:19 GMT -5
1. New Avengers/Disassembled 2. Trial of Yellowjacket 3. The Geoff Johns orchestrated sex scene with Hank/Jan 4. Al Milgrom's art run on the book in the early 1980's 5. Dr. Druid -- plot vehicle, yes, but a truly despicable character and not a fond run of stories for me. Doug, I recall your discussing #s 1 & 3–5 in other posts, and I remember your having a poor opinion of those stories. Offhand I don’t recall your discussing the trial of Yellowjacket (if only there were a way for me to check… ). Is it on the list because you think the story is a creative failure? or because it’s a sorrowful time for the characters? More broadly, are you asking us to cite examples of bad creative/editorial decisions? or events/eras that the characters would consider low points but may or may not be finely crafted? An example of the latter might be Helmut Zemo’s Masters of Evil taking over the mansion: an event the team would consider a low point but which many fans consider a superlative story. A similar question could be asked of your “high points” thread, too.
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Post by spiderwasp on Nov 13, 2006 21:52:58 GMT -5
- Avengers Disassembled - Avengers post-300 (Captain, Gilgamesh, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thor) up through recruiting Rage - The Crossing - The disbanding of Avengers West Coast/creation of Force Works - Heroes Reborn Wow! I thought about responding to this post earlier but wanted to put a little more thought in it. I didn't expect someone else to do my work for me. You've posted my exact list. The only good thing about Heroes Reborn was than when it was over, it fixed some of the problems created during the Crossing (Insect Wasp, teenage Tony). Maybe that can give us all hope for the Bendis era.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Nov 13, 2006 21:59:50 GMT -5
The only good thing about Heroes Reborn was than when it was over, it fixed some of the problems created during the Crossing (Insect Wasp, teenage Tony). Maybe that can give us all hope for the Bendis era. Hmm…Onslaught is coming back…
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Post by dlw66 on Nov 13, 2006 23:13:02 GMT -5
I guess the thread is whatever you want it to be -- in regard to the YJ story, I just feel like Hank's been through the wringer a time or two too much. The trial and the events that led up to it, even though he ended up redeemed, still left him on the outside looking in.
Avengers #28 and #51 are two of my favorites because he was the hero of the story. Of course, with #59 and the introduction of Yellowjacket coming less than a year after the return of the growth powers in #51, his rising status was short-lived before the psychological issues took on a very public face.
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 13, 2006 23:52:59 GMT -5
I'm holding my responses to runs on the actual title as opposed to crossovers that involved the Avengers. From worst to least worst: 1)Avengers Dissassembled 2)New Avengers issues 1-current . . . . . . . . and a long, long way down 3)Heroes Reborn (v2) 4)Austen's run 5)Johns' run with a particular dishonorable mention to the Hank/Jan sex scene. The guy should've been fired on the spot.
I'm sure I'm forgetting one or two bad eras, but these are pretty much the low spots for me.
RSC
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Nov 14, 2006 9:31:21 GMT -5
Ok, I can't help but to play aliong,
1. volume I, issue 1 -- not a very good origin story, admit it. It had a convoluted plot that's not worthy of the legacy that followed. 2. Avengers Disassembled -- outrageous nonsense 3. The Crossing -- only worse than Disassembled because it took longer 4. Onslaught/Reborn -- more nonsense 5. Issue 300 -- Giglamesh, Mr and Mrs Fantastic? Absolutely rotten.
The sex scene didn't bother me a bit. A bit fan fictiony, I guess. I suppose I would feel differently if I had kids reading comics.
I'm on record elsewhere as liking Austen's run. Search for She Hulk had an awesome battle in it.
Disbanding of West Coast/Force Works -- didn't read that, so can't comment.
New Avengers I'm ok with in principle, but the books turned out to be pretty boring.
Haven't read Civil War either, but it can't be worse than any of my 5.
I loved the Trial of Yellow Jacket. For me, that's one of the high water marks of 1980s comics.
I'm also on record for liking the Dr. Druid plot device, even though the character should be Disassembled.
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Post by von Bek on Nov 14, 2006 12:43:39 GMT -5
Doctor Druid could have been a great character if only Stern stayed longer on the title. Walter Simonson's run, Heroes Reborn, BENDIS! reign (from bad to awful). The sex scene was at least funny (c'mon guys, let Hank and Janet have a good time)...
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Post by Tana Nile on Nov 14, 2006 20:39:47 GMT -5
I posted on the 'High Points' thread, I guess I may as well hit this one too. In no particular order:
1. Avengers Disassembled - no surprise here right? 2. Heroes Reborn - was there a point? 3. the Milgrom years - I'm sorry, I'm sure he's a great guy, but his art makes me physically ill. 4. most of New Avengers - could the team please do something? 5. Avengers 200 - thank god Claremont gave everyone involved a serious thrashing in Avengers Annual 10.
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 15, 2006 3:38:42 GMT -5
Let's see. I'd say The Austen run Disassembled The Crossing Heroes Reborn The issues before Onslaught, with the leather jackets and so on.
I didn't include NA because I'm too many issues back, so I'll wait until I'm closer to present. Dr. Druid had some potential but he joined too closely to Stern leaving, and Simonson didn't make good use of him. I think that, had Simonson joined earlier, Photon would not be nearly as appreciated as she is now. The trial of YJ was actually the very very first Avengers' story I read, guess this is why I like it and Milgrom's art so much.
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Post by balok on Nov 15, 2006 21:28:01 GMT -5
- It's been downhill, mostly, since Avengers: Disassembled. Bendis simply cannot write this book. Turning Wanda insane should have been the handwriting on the wall.
- Heroes Reborn. When it came out I remember thinking, well at least I'll never read someone worse on the book than this. Ha! The cool thing is that Liefeld is all but out of the busines. One can buy hope the same fate awaits Bendis when saner heads prevail.
- Byrne's work on West Coast Avengers. It's not the core book, but I'm thinking here of the disassembly of the Vision. Just... dumb.
- The Crossing, although the passage of time has dimmed my dislike considerably - I remember not being enthusiastic about it at the time, but not the same degree of dislike as I had for Avengers: Disassembled.
There are also dotted here and there stories I didn't like.
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 17, 2006 21:44:41 GMT -5
the Crossing (did I say Crossing? I meant Crapping) is what got me off Marvel for quite a while. Heroes Reborn was crap too. and I totaly hated the disbanding of West Coast Avengers for Force Works (because it don't).
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kingb
Force Works-er
Posts: 16
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Post by kingb on Nov 28, 2006 14:37:06 GMT -5
1) Disassembled/New Avengers (including House of M) 2) Austen 3) Heroes Reborn 4) The Crossing & its aftermath 5) Shooter's portion of the Yellowjacket saga 6) Byrne's run which started in WCA and continued in both books for a while. It was such a huge letdown after Stern & Englehart, I could barely stand it.
I can't help but point out that the first four items on my list account for about six of the last 12 years. In other words, my favorite comic has been stinking up the joint a lot lately.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 28, 2006 15:45:29 GMT -5
Austen's the worst, but seriously guys...
I mean, I know we all hate Bendis but if HE is what you guys are listing as the worst thing to happen to the AVengers, then we Avengers fans have had extraordinary luck. When I think of some of the UTTER RUBBISH that Spidey, FF, Cap etc have had over the years, New Avengers is much better by comparison.
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Nov 28, 2006 16:25:28 GMT -5
Yeah, usually, to shake things up, a writer can just change the roster. They don't have to turn beloved characters into implausible menaces -- well, until recently that is.
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Nov 28, 2006 16:33:35 GMT -5
Absolute lowest point in Avengers history --
Hank Pym slapping Jan.
It ruined a founding member's credibility as a hero forever after.
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 28, 2006 21:06:28 GMT -5
Absolute lowest point in Avengers history -- Hank Pym slapping Jan. It ruined a founding member's credibility as a hero forever after. I kinda liked it. *shrug* RSC
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 28, 2006 21:14:19 GMT -5
Austen's the worst, but seriously guys... I mean, I know we all hate Bendis but if HE is what you guys are listing as the worst thing to happen to the AVengers, then we Avengers fans have had extraordinary luck. When I think of some of the UTTER RUBBISH that Spidey, FF, Cap etc have had over the years, New Avengers is much better by comparison. On an absolute basis, Cap Vol. 4 may have been worse. The difference is that craptastic eras usually tend to last a fairly short time -- a few issues (Austen) to a couple of years (CA vol4). On the other hand, it appears that we are stuck with Bendis indefinitely. And not only Bendis in NA, but Bendis in MA. RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 29, 2006 3:04:11 GMT -5
Howard Mackie, the "Bendis" of Spidey books, wrote every Spider title for a few years. This just AFTER the hideous reboot which featured the "climatic" battle between Spidey and Goblin OFF PAGE, this just AFTER the obscenely long and torturous Clone Saga.
That long, long era was far worse than the Bendisvengers.
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 29, 2006 3:55:01 GMT -5
Absolute lowest point in Avengers history -- Hank Pym slapping Jan. It ruined a founding member's credibility as a hero forever after. I actually quite liked that, possibly because it happened in my very first Avengers issue and therefore I had no emotional ties to Hank and no idea what he had done in the past. As a longtime fan I'd probably been pissed off, but as a newcomer and enjoyed Jan's reaction, especially when she proposed herself for Avengers' leadership. In a way, it was possibly thanks to those events than Jan became the capable leader we still appreciate now (and I liked Hank commenting on this during the Kang war in V3).
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Nov 29, 2006 9:25:01 GMT -5
I didn't mind the event itself. It was handled well the original books -- but somehow it's been blown out of proportion since then by some fans. That's my regeret about it. I'm glad and refreshed to see so many people liked the story. But still, I read too often that Hank is a wife beater. I won't say anymore about it, less I perpetuate that misconception further. My point is not that that story was so awful, but that it has regrettably hampered the character's development since then.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 20, 2007 9:46:10 GMT -5
Anything with Dr. Druid in it Any issue featuring Mantis Moondragon making Thor her love slave
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Apr 26, 2007 19:55:44 GMT -5
1. The 13 odd issue series after Onslaught (is that Heroes Reborn, or is that the Busiek stuff?). Unspeakable. 2. The Crossing/Timeslide/Onslaught period. Revolting. 3. The Gatherers storyline. Atrocious. Harras was always mediocre but his rewrite of the Black Knight as some kind of projection of his fantasies was truly risible. 4. The Englehart/Milgrom WCA issues (I'll duck Force Works here). It's probably worth mentioning Joe Sinnot here. There's some Milgrom art in a short story in one of the annuals where Sinnot doesn't ink him and his obvious Kirbyisms are shown to some advantage. It's unfortunate that on both his runs on Avengers and WCA he was inked by Sinnot who showed his work in the worst possible light. 5. The earlier Englehart stories. The later part of his run had some okay stories (after all that Celestial Madonna nonsense). I gather he's quite popular round these parts but I always found his writing extremely soapy. Anyway I'd give this period a mediocre rather than really bad rating.
I suppose it's heresy but some of Stan Lee's later Avengers stories aren't that great. The Kang story with a spaceship shaped like a sword (!) is pretty dumb too. Apart from Avengers Forever which is truly ace I'm a bit conflicted about Busiek. He obviously loved the Avengers and features many things Avengers fans love and wanted to see. At the same time a few things really grated and the run had an odd feeling of being more like a DC book than a Marvel one (to me anyway).
Actually that's the last Avengers stuff I know so there could be much worse stuff afterwards. I gather there's a series of Avengers with the word 'New' before it and one with 'Young' as well. I imagine it's safe to assume that these are both awful.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Apr 26, 2007 19:59:04 GMT -5
Drat!
I forgot about the Simonson run leading up to number 300. That goes in at number 4 on my list. That was really disappointing as I was always a Simonson fan. Best Thor comics ever.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 27, 2007 19:14:32 GMT -5
I have to go along with Cowl
Although I would put reborn at #3 and move the other 2 up a notch. That's my top 3.
It all felt like a drug indused hallucination.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 28, 2007 0:19:41 GMT -5
Verily, I doth protest...!!! I remember the Gatherers storyline quite fondly...! I must take umbrage...!!!
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