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Post by dlw66 on Sept 18, 2006 12:42:10 GMT -5
With all of the talk on the boards lately about good/bad characterization, I thought I'd start a thread where each of us can post "our" solid example of a particular character(s) true self. That is, what have you read that really jumped out at you as -- "yeah, they nailed that." This thread will also serve as a recommendation list for those of us who might have these books or seek them out. I'll start with a shortlist:
Captain America: Avengers Vol. I, issue 20. Cap vs. the Swordsman while the rest of the Kooky Quartet watches. Great leadership, personal sacrifice, and battle leadership. Cap at his best.
FF: FF Annual 6. Desperation as Sue is about to deliver Franklin. Great battle with Annihilus. Angst, fantastic Kirby art and Lee dialogue. Each character's personality is showcased.
Spider-Man: Amazing Spider-Man 137. Peter vs. Harry in the conclusion of a two-parter. Perhaps defined the character of Harry Osborn as well. Peter has to act quickly as Harry has kidnapped Aunt May, Mary Jane, and Flash Thompson. Peter's sense of duty to not only the Goblin's victims but to Harry as his friend is handled beautifully.
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Post by bobc on Sept 18, 2006 13:35:31 GMT -5
Good thread, DL.
The Black Panther's best characterization came right when he was introduced in FF 52.
I think the Scarlet Witch's best characterization was when she was learning witchcraft from Agatha Harkness, while also trying to scratch Mantis' eyes out.
The Vision's best characterization, BY FAR, was when the Grim Reaper offered him the chance to become human by taking Wonderman's body--in return for betraying the Avengers. Even today, I still think that storyarch was possibly the best in Avengers history. When the Reaper asks the Vision one last time if he'd betray the Avengers in that last panel, and the Vision just replies "Yes" with that scary illustration of him, I just about wet myself! I was like OMIGOD--THE VISION IS A TRAITOR!!!
Of course the next issue I found out he wasn't a traitor, thank GOD. AND I didn't wet myself either, if you must know.
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 18, 2006 13:55:07 GMT -5
Excellent, excellent. Glad to hear you stayed dry. Shoot, you and I are about ready for "Depends" anyway...
Wolverine: X-Men 109, first appearance of Vindicator (later Guardian). The X-Men are on a picnic in the woods and Logan talks about going hunting. Storm attacks him verbally and he tells her to relax -- hunting to him is being able to get so close to a doe as to reach out and touch her without having spooked her. I thought that was awesome!
Of course, if you're more for the berserker Wolverine, issue #96 has a great scene, as does issue 133 in the midst of the Dark Phoenix Saga.
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Post by bobc on Sept 18, 2006 16:16:42 GMT -5
Funny you should mention Wolverine. Yeah that was a great moment for him, as far as his softer side goes. BUT--I was just re-reading the first few issues of the new X-Men, where they fight the Sentinels on that space shuttle (right before Jean Grey dies and becomes Phoenix)--and there were some GREAT Wolverine moments showing his obnoxious side! Like when Jean is trying to rip her evening gown so she could run and fight, and Wolverine just reaches over and rips the dress up to practicaly her uhhhhh, well you know! Jean says "Hey--Not so blasted short!!" and "Thank you very much--I think!" And another great moment was when the old X-Men were all talking about leaving, and everybody was all teary eyed and emotional, but Wolverine just blurts out something to the effect of "Well, if you're gonna go then SHOVE OFF--stop talking us to death!" It was so out of the blue, and so crankypants, that you had to laugh! Back then, it seemed like every other issue Jean Grey was telling him off! It was awesome!
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 19, 2006 9:16:21 GMT -5
Another great early X-Men story (and of course I begin to digress from the topic at hand...) is Iron Fist #15 by Claremont and Byrne. Case of mistaken identity, battle royale in Misty Knight's (or Colleen Wing's - I forget which) apartment, and Ororo ends up with a bowl of potato salad in the face! Wolverine is just back from the Starjammers/Imperial Guard battle and is wearing the Fang suit (looks just like TimberWolf).
Back to the thread:
For Hank Pym, I would choose Avengers #28 (first Goliath issue) and #139 (one-on-one against the Whirlwind -- first time he grows as Yellowjacket!). These two issues showcase his love and devotion to Jan, as well as his power.
For Jan, I'd have to choose an issue during her tenure as chairperson -- no specific one comes to mind. I thought that run showed that she was far more than the fashion plate, wealthy heiress and was a leader and a warrior.
My Vision story for characterization of his powers is probably Avengers #158 where he battles Wonder Man. What a showcase of what the synthezoid could do! Of course, Wanda comes off looking helpless (as was all-too-often the case), but Vizh and Simon really mix it up!
Ultron: never better than in the Bride of Ultron arc (actually over 4 issues almost a year apart!). Evil, scheming, and oh-so-powerful. Not quite yet to the era when he referred to Hank Pym as "daddy", although I believe he refers to him as "father", at least in his thoughts. Also no hint of the army of Ultrons that we'd see later.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 19, 2006 12:17:20 GMT -5
Well for myself, (and I'm going to go Avengers first, then outside.)
Captain America- Two big examples for me.
Avengers V3 #54. Cap INCREDIBLY mad at Kang for the devastation of Earth. He then beats him in a fight without killing him, proclaiming that the only honour to be had is in making sure there wil never again be men like him. I thought this was fantastic insight into Cap's character, showing his frustration and fury and sorrow yet never being pushed too far by emotion alone.
Captain America (hides from redstatecap) Volume 5.... I don't know the number, I'm afraid, but it was when I realised that..... Brubaker can write Cap like few men before. He had a monologue about, of all things, France- and how he hated it when people called the French cowards after how hard he'd seen the people fight in World War II. Not on,ly do I agree with that sentiment, but it was written SO well that I just knew he had nailed Cap right off.
KANG: Avengers V3 #53. His plan has failed, his capital ship blazing and going down, his army in ruins, his foes victorious and his own death imminent. Does Kang care? Hell, no. He just packages his son off to safety- he himself is content because he's achieved almost everything- all that's left is an honourable death. He stands on the prow of the falling ship roaring "KANG THE CONQUEROR FIGHTS TO THE END!" Again, I thought Busiek basically NAILED right off Kang, in a way that no other writer since has equalled.
DOCTOR DOOM: Fantastic Four #499 by Mark Waid. Doom has beaten and captured the FF, torturing them. Naturally, he makes a speech (as that's what villains do.) What's it about? It's about how exceedingly arrogant Reed Richards is for resisting him and calling himself 'Mr Fantastic', and 'continuing to impede an ascension which would benefit everybody!" Waid had a (forgve the pun) fantastic take on Doom, and it d**n well showed. Doom is one of those characters who, written well, is simply pure joy to read.
J. JONAH JAMESON- ....Words can't really express this one- you need to see it yourself. Amazing Spider-Man #533. The Unmasking reaction of JJJ. Not played for comedy or anything, just authentic and gut-wrenching. Very recent but.... seriously, JMS just redeemed everything in my eyes.
THE THING- A lot of stuck choices for this one, but I narrowed it down to two.
Fantastic Four... around 510? 'Hereafter'. The FF go afyer Ben Grimm into Heaven itself to recover him and he has a deep, meaningful conversation followed by an amazing tribute to Jack 'The King' Kirby. Got Ben brilliantly.
VERY recently- FF #539. JMS is by no stretch of imagination the best writer FF has ever had. But he gets Ben, without doubt. This Civil War tie-in was all about Ben, who IMO is with Spidey the very soul of the Marvel Universe. So when that universe tears itself apart, when a kid dies and both sides beseech him to join them, what does Ben Grimm do? He walks out. particularly loved his AMAZINGLY insightful speech. ("LOOK WHAT YER FREAKIN' WAR HAS DONE!)
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 19, 2006 12:23:04 GMT -5
Doom --
Very recent examples -- it makes me want to check out these books that I don't have. I hope you, in turn, will seek out some of the Silver and Bronze Age stuff bobc and I have been promoting.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 19, 2006 12:24:56 GMT -5
DLW66- I deliverately cited newer examples, knowing that there'd be no shortage of older ones. And of course, I can always be counted on to seek out Silver and Bronze age books!
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Post by imperiusrex on Sept 19, 2006 15:26:18 GMT -5
Well for myself, (and I'm going to go Avengers first, then outside.) Captain America- Two big examples for me. Avengers V3 #54. Cap INCREDIBLY mad at Kang for the devastation of Earth. He then beats him in a fight without killing him, proclaiming that the only honour to be had is in making sure there wil never again be men like him. I thought this was fantastic insight into Cap's character, showing his frustration and fury and sorrow yet never being pushed too far by emotion alone. Captain America (hides from redstatecap) Volume 5.... I don't know the number, I'm afraid, but it was when I realised that..... Brubaker can write Cap like few men before. He had a monologue about, of all things, France- and how he hated it when people called the French cowards after how hard he'd seen the people fight in World War II. Not on,ly do I agree with that sentiment, but it was written SO well that I just knew he had nailed Cap right off. KANG: Avengers V3 #53. His plan has failed, his capital ship blazing and going down, his army in ruins, his foes victorious and his own death imminent. Does Kang care? Hell, no. He just packages his son off to safety- he himself is content because he's achieved almost everything- all that's left is an honourable death. He stands on the prow of the falling ship roaring "KANG THE CONQUEROR FIGHTS TO THE END!" Again, I thought Busiek basically NAILED right off Kang, in a way that no other writer since has equalled. DOCTOR DOOM: Fantastic Four #499 by Mark Waid. Doom has beaten and captured the FF, torturing them. Naturally, he makes a speech (as that's what villains do.) What's it about? It's about how exceedingly arrogant Reed Richards is for resisting him and calling himself 'Mr Fantastic', and 'continuing to impede an ascension which would benefit everybody!" Waid had a (forgve the pun) fantastic take on Doom, and it d**n well showed. Doom is one of those characters who, written well, is simply pure joy to read. J. JONAH JAMESON- ....Words can't really express this one- you need to see it yourself. Amazing Spider-Man #533. The Unmasking reaction of JJJ. Not played for comedy or anything, just authentic and gut-wrenching. Very recent but.... seriously, JMS just redeemed everything in my eyes. THE THING- A lot of stuck choices for this one, but I narrowed it down to two. Fantastic Four... around 510? 'Hereafter'. The FF go afyer Ben Grimm into Heaven itself to recover him and he has a deep, meaningful conversation followed by an amazing tribute to Jack 'The King' Kirby. Got Ben brilliantly. VERY recently- FF #539. JMS is by no stretch of imagination the best writer FF has ever had. But he gets Ben, without doubt. This Civil War tie-in was all about Ben, who IMO is with Spidey the very soul of the Marvel Universe. So when that universe tears itself apart, when a kid dies and both sides beseech him to join them, what does Ben Grimm do? He walks out. particularly loved his AMAZINGLY insightful speech. ("LOOK WHAT YER FREAKIN' WAR HAS DONE!) reading these picks really makes me wonder why we never agree on any other topics. several of these are right on the money. you should listen to busiek's podcast as he explains in a great way just how a bada$$ like Kang is running around in purple dominatrix boots. he had a lot of insight into the character... |
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 19, 2006 20:39:20 GMT -5
Rex -- I assume you were addressing Doom, because you and I are always pals on our posts  ! I think the common thread in Doom's choices are that his stories cited were all written by writer's who care about the mythos, not just about a shock/gimmick/so what paycheck. |
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Post by imperiusrex on Sept 19, 2006 21:17:08 GMT -5
Rex -- I assume you were addressing Doom, because you and I are always pals on our posts ! I think the common thread in Doom's choices are that his stories cited were all written by writer's who care about the mythos, not just about a shock/gimmick/so what paycheck. Indeed I quoted Doom's post and that was the one I meant. I often agree with your posts doug, and I admire your good taste in sharing my opinions ;D |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 23, 2006 8:49:43 GMT -5
Heh, thanks Rex. Indeed, it is very odd that we disagree on so much yet we can agree on this  Where is this Busiek podcast, anyway!? Also, just wanted to add another one, again more recent. (Thank you, back issues!) Fantastic Four #507 or thereabouts.... It's what I think of when I think of Reed Richards, part of the 'Authoritive Action' arc. He has been acting VERY oddly for a time now- insulting his family, being very cold, acting as a cruel ruler, taking over Latveria with the others.... but this is where we get our explanation. A less skilled writer might have had him mind controlled. Mark Waid? Like Hell! Reed snatches Doctor Doom from hell, where he was trapped, and takes him to a pocket Mobius Dimension. With no exit. He then reveals that the whole thing was done just to drive away his family so he could do this- sacrifice himself by trapping himself in this dimension with Doom, so that Doom could NEVER, EVER hurt his family again. His passionate anger, love for his family and hatred of Doom all come across brilliantly. Waid really got Reed in pure Reed mode this issue. He also had a dead-on Doom. This issue is 'Fantastic' in name, fantastic in Reed characterization and Fantastic in story as well. (As a side note, unrelated to the characterization; it also has a phenomenal cliffhanger ending. In fact, that entire arc is one of my favourite comic arcs EVER.) Funnily enough, 2 of my cited issues were JMS, and I'm sure there are both Spidey and FF fans who will tell you that JMS doesn't care about their particular mythos  But yeah, I know what you mean, certainly in regards to Brubaker, Waid and Busiek. I must also say I loved Sue's characterization in Civil War #4- it seemed right on the money. I find it impossible to choose the definitive Spidey or Thor- two of my top four favourite characters- because there are frankly too many to choose from. |
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Post by imperiusrex on Sept 23, 2006 17:24:24 GMT -5
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Sept 23, 2006 19:00:31 GMT -5
Old fart time. Issue #51 vol #1 defines what the FF is all about for me. Everything else builds on this. In fact, in some other thread someone says Reed has a history of manipulating his family. Not in my book. Reed has more respect for the other three than most modern writers can understand. Reed would be another Doom without Ben, Sue and Jonny keeping him sane. That's why I say the Reed in Civil War ain't the Reed I grew up with.
Definitive Spider-Man is issue #31 or #32 of vol #1. Spidey's beat and trapped underwater when he starts to think of his responsibilities to his family and friends. Once again, everything builds on this. It happened first.
JJ Jameson_ Issue #10 of Amazing S-M.
The defining moment of the whole MU, pre-Shooter was MTU where Spidey knew what was going on in the personel lives with other major Marvel characters like the X-Men. Love or hate Clairmont, the man really tried to unify Marvel in the 80's to a point where everything we grew up with solidified so the super-hero society knew and respected each other. Jim Shooter quickly killed all of that and destroyed Marvel as we knew it.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Sept 23, 2006 19:24:39 GMT -5
Other quick definitive moments.
Cap- Somewhere in the #120's or so of the original series Cap supports the right of college students to protest against the college authorities. Write that today. And in a recent (within the last 8 years) series of Cap, someone (and for the life of me I can't remember who) rewrites history repeatidly so he can conquer mankind and in each rewrite Cap defeats him spouting that the human will is more powerful than any other force. Cap always win because he's right. Pretty much defines Cap.
Iron-Man. Before someone got the stupid idea that Tony was an alcoholic, IM stood up to the government, SHIELD and any other megla maniac corperate raider that tried to take Stark Enterprises from him. Don't believe me? Read the last ten or twenty issues of Tales of Suspense and the first ten issues of I-M. Tony was a man feared by both unscubiloud government agencies and fellow super powerful business rivals. Don Trump, kiss my ring.
Thor In this corner, the Prince of Asgard. In the other corner, Mangog, a being composed of a thousand thousand alien warriors all with the major hots to kick Asgard butt. Odin is in his now famous "Odin Sleep" so Thor is on his own. I can't tell you how many times this story pulled me through tough times.
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 23, 2006 19:51:24 GMT -5
Steed, I believe the Thor story you mention was collected in a Marvel Treasury Edition, which I have. Kirby art?
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Sept 23, 2006 20:16:49 GMT -5
Talk about beating a dead horse, how about defining moments in the Marvel Universe. As a kid, here are my top 3.
The death of Capt. Stacey. I remember standing in Curtiss's Drugstore that afternoon and reading this. Capt. Stacey, who for a long time, was Peter's serogut father and the father of the woman he loved. Capt. Stacey dies the hero death saving a kid in a battle between Spidey and Doc Ock. Stacey's last words are something like "Peter, take care of my daughter". He knew that Peter Parker was Spidey long before it became fashionable. I think I asked my mother if I could skip school the next day because this devastated me. After all those years reading DC, I knew Marvel meant business.
A few years later, those bastards killed Gwen. This was back in the time when death meant something other than increased sales at Marvel. Someone back then decided they couldn't write a "married" S-M so they killed that idea quickly. This was also the death of my childhood following of comic books. Let's face it, DC really didn't cut it anymore. Marvel really measnt business.
The death of Jean Grey. I had read some of the early X-Men issues, but let's face it, after the first 17 or20 issues, this book sucked. Hard. They fought Frankenstein's Monster. Suck, Suck. Suck. Wernmer Roth came over from the Doom Patrol to draw this. Suck Suck Suck. Then , Neil Adams does a few issues, Roy the Boy shines on the writing, everything looks great for about 4 or 5 issues andf they decide to reprint the earlier issues. Strangly enough they sell well enough to keep th X-Men in the public eye until 1975 when they decide to relauch the series. And I may not be Chris Clairemont"s biggest fan but at the time, he was what Marvel needed. Clairemont seemed to be one of us and he loved the MU as much as we did and his X-Men proved it. So when he decided to make Jean Grey the Phoenix, he had me sold. When he had her go crazy and destroy a planet I understood what he was dong. When out f nowhere they kill her, I thought "What the F@#$?" Come to find out, Jim Shooter felt she should pay for killing an alien race. Shooter was out to make Marvel more acceptable and decided to punish Jean. Yay Jim Shooter.
Despite the stupidity of Shooter, Clairemot and Bryne made Jeans death memorible. I was shocked. Jean sacrifices herself. Classic Marvel that meant something until Marvel cheapens her death by bringing her back in 22 different ways and killing her again. But when she first died, it was memorable.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Sept 23, 2006 20:40:17 GMT -5
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Steed, I believe the Thor story you mention was collected in a Marvel Treasury Edition, which I have. Kirby art?
You bet your booties. Defining Kirby art. This is what drew me into Kirby so hard. To this day when life gets difficult, I think of this and try just a little harder. Tell me what book out there today
inspires kid today.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Sept 24, 2006 3:14:07 GMT -5
You're definitely unto something there, steed... What, indeed, could a kid these days find inspirational in today's Marvel (NOT your father's... or even your grandfather's Marvel)?
Even if the notion of comic book characters being inspirational may seem ridiculous to some jaded spirits, there is certainly the potential for this... It only takes a good writer with respect for what he writes & respect for his readers...
These days Marvel writes most of their "heroes" as if they not only have feet of clay, which I think would be perfectly acceptable, but as if they were all anti-heroes at best, beings who are half-good & half-bad... and what would make them different from the villians then, you say...? Silly, the difference, obviously, is that the villians are written half-bad & half-good, see...?
It's writers (most of them, that is) are also hell-bent into churning out stories which depict a world of ever increasing grimness & darkness, as if trying to out-darken the real world...
As a result, we end up with stories where nobody trusts anybody, everybody fights everyone else but the reasons of why we should give a d**n or why it's worthy to fight for this world at all get lost in the shuffle.
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Post by bobc on Sept 24, 2006 11:12:25 GMT -5
I agree Steed and Ua2. I am so tired of the whole dark thing. It's been 30 years of dark, dark, dark. It was great for a while but good GOD.
Funny you guys are talking about X-Men, or the beginning of the New X-Men to be precise. Those initial stories were incredible--some of the most classicc, fascinating storylines ever in Marvel history. I've been re-reading them here lately and they still completely hold up. I also agree that after those first few years, Chris claremont became one of the most annoying writers on the planet where it seemed like the X-Men became morose, self-pitying losers issue after issue. The endless self questioning, the dreary soul searching, the mindless self pity...blech.
What happened to a little humor and happiness? Those early issues had lots of humor and lots of happy moments. It's all about balance.
And yeah most of those original X-Men stories from the 60's were craptastic. In fact, I never read those last few issues (just before the series was cancelled) until just a year or two ago, and I can honestly say that those issues are the WORST WRITING I HAVE EVER SEEN IN ANY COMIC BOOK. I am talking about the Steranko issues which introduced Lorna Dane. JUST DREADFUL. The art doesn't even match the words in many of the panels. For example, Marvel Girls whines that a "tidal wave of metal" is enveloping her, but the panel shows like three nuts and bolts clinging to her leg! Listen, if Marvel girl can't fend off a few nuts and bolts, maybe she shoulda tried the Food service industry.
MY GOD you have to read those issues--they are high CAMP. Just horrifyingly bad. The issues preceeding them were at least just boring with third rate villains and dull storylines--but the last few issues before cancellation were the worst writing I've ever seen in 30 years of reading comics. They made Bendis look like Alan Moore.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 24, 2006 15:40:58 GMT -5
Honestly, marvel isn't spiralling as much 'into the dark' as some have claimed. Until JMS took over FF a year or so back, FF tended to be fairly light-hearted- even when dealing with heavy issues. Even under JMS it's never really 'dark'. Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man tends to be light-hearted, as do She/Hulk, Ms Marvel and Cable/Deadpool. Thunderbolts is never bogged down that heavily, even Wolverine, while gory, hasn't ventured int othe really dark since 'Enemy of the State. Astonishing X-Men never gets into the 'so dark it's feet drag', X-Men has been stuck in the rubbish ages for a decade so I don't care anymore... Speaking for the books I read, I honestly don't agree with the idea that everything is getting woefully dark. I WILL agree gladly that ASM seems to be going there a lot, but ironically civil War has LIGHTENED the atmosphere over there, at least in my view. I can't comment on Iron Man- Cap has been pretty dark since the reboot but most reviewers and me and pretty much 90% of people not named 'Redstatecap' (joke, cappy. You know I respect you.) will tell you it's been far better for it. And let's face it, if there's one book which SHOULD be dealing with terrorists and the like it's Captain America. (Sensational Spidey is also pretty dark but it suffers for it.)New Avengers can be too dark at times, yes, undoubtedly.... I just ran through a lot of major marvel titles, right there and honestly, I don't see this problem. The Marvel Universe as a WHOLE may have been gradually darkening since Avengers Disassembled it's true, and certainly CW is a much darker story, but I INTENSELY disagree with many opinions stated inthis thread. You think I don't know a LOT of kids- Hell, there's loads in my family, and a lot read comics and they do admire and respect these guys, and it isn't for their violent tendencies. ASM has become darker since JMS took over, undoubtedly. But 'Anti-hero'? One of JMS's major plotlines was about Spider-Man doing what he hadn't in some time. HELPING people again. Going on the street, caring about his students and trying to save people from problems like drugs. He started to care about the families of people he put away, about the MOTIVES for people stealing things. And all that stuff is very dark, but there have been few times I was as proud of Spidey as when he was exploring all those issues. It made him, in my eyes, even more of a hero. When the Fantastic Four went into Latveria after Doctor Doom's defeat, they were implementing a military coup. they were fending off governments, dealing with the problem of a dictaitor who kept his people down, who EXECUTED rebels, who made weapons of mass destruction, and Mark Waid didn't skim over all that- it wasn't all joy now that Doom was gone, it was a reflection of Iraq and whatnot in that the people were ANGRY. That was a dark issue to explore in a comic, but the FF faced up to it. And I was proud of being a Marvel fan, very proud that these heroes were addresing these concerns. Now those were dark arcs, but when someone tells me that they were 'worse' for the realism, or that kids can't admire heroes who face real, down-to-earth and dark issues, I can't disagree more. Someone here complained about heroes being turned into anti-heroes- again I disagree. I like Iron Man- guess what, now that he's doing what's necessary, no matter how difficult, during the Civil War, I have never found him more interesting, more admirable than he is now. Captain America- in taking down terrorists, some of them die. I don't agree with American foreign policy or any of that, but when someone dies in something like that in a comic it doesn't make me think "Cap is now a murderer!" It makes me think that there are real reprucussions, and that just because you beat up the bad guys and saved the day, it doesn't mean you've won everything and can forget about the aftermath- a REAL hero will stand up and do what has to be done in that aftermath. My two cents. |
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 24, 2006 16:04:04 GMT -5
Doom -- "dark" doesn't necessarily mean storylines. It means a decline in the morality of characters, pushing vigilantism past what a hero would do/stand for.
bobc -- you have trashed one of my fave runs of all time!!! Are you really referring to the Roy Thomas/Neal Adams collaboration circa X-Men 58-65??? Cuz you'd better not be or we're gonna box!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 24, 2006 16:05:31 GMT -5
DLW66- please provide some examples.
I certainly haven't seen a decline in said morals for the Fantastic Four or Spider-Man, I have for Iron Man but it's kind of a 'only when needs absoloutely must' and I have for Cap but it has seemed logical.
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 24, 2006 17:21:09 GMT -5
Oh, Doom, you back me into a corner. You know I don't read enough these days to give you specific examples. I guess what I am referring to is the late 90's movements with Wolverine, Punisher, Venom, and Ghost Rider becoming the "face" of Marvel, not Cap, IM, Thor, and Spidey. Marvel made it a point to add more gore to their comics and crossed the line between heroism and "dark creature of the night, doing what HAD to be done". Some of the villains of the period were equally as dark, including Carnage, Lady Deathstrike, etc. Whilst comics should be a fun retreat into the classic good vs. evil battle, there should be a line between which side is which.
Other than that, I really can't put it any better than ua2 did up above.
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Post by bobc on Sept 24, 2006 18:06:07 GMT -5
DL--no--I'm not talking about the issues with Neal Adams, I'm talking about the last few issues that Steranko drew. I thought the X-Men got cancelled after that. I just read those issues in an Essential X-Men volume. I'll snoop around and see if I can find the exact issue numbers.
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Post by bobc on Sept 24, 2006 18:15:18 GMT -5
Okay--I am talking about issue 50 with Polaris on the cover. Trust me, Roy Thomas couldn't have written this crap. I'm not sure who wrote it. I loved the Neal Adams/Roy Thomas stuff--I was wrong about the X-Men being cancelled after 50, in fact the X-Men went on for quite some time apparently. I better keep my snout in Avengers history, where it belongs, because I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about in regards to 80's era X-Men. I'm just now reading up on it!
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Sept 24, 2006 21:52:23 GMT -5
OK' off the top of my head, the original X-Men run went well into the 60's and I believe they ended on #66. Roy and Neal breathed alot of life into the last few issues (Neal didn't do the last "Hulk" issue) that Claremont carried into the "New X-Men".
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Post by Doctor Bong on Sept 25, 2006 0:37:06 GMT -5
Allow me to try to clarify my previous posting further: in my eyes, it's not only a matter of the MU as a whole feeling like a (a lot more) nastier & darker place. In my view, it goes way beyond the perception of a pervading atmosphere of gloom & doom (no pun intended); for many of us, "grumpy old men", it feels like not only many of the main players of the MU have strayed far from their heroic roots & personas but, even worse, like lately they live in a fatallistic world where chaos, darkness & despair seem destined, preordained to overcome most (or at least many) of their best efforts & intentions... I'm not saying always, but quite often.
For me, one of the central themes or "messsages" you could find in the "classic" MU, if indeed a message it was, was that corageous individuals -heroes, more precisely,- could make a difference in the world... That compassion, faith, hope & courage could win the day & defeat evil... In other words, the MU & other comic book universes were the old mythology under the pretence of modern trappings... We were often reminded that, at heart, it wasn't the powers that made the hero, but his inner qualities.
Nowadays, I think, this message can only be heard far & in between in the MU,as we very often are witnesses to scenes & situations showcasing the impotence & frustration of our heroes, who very often find themselves unable to overcome the forces of evil & inhumanity.
So, to summarize, when I say the MU is a darker place these days, what I really mean by that is this: that this message of hope is, in my eyes, becoming ever dimmer, fainter & rarer in the current MU, which, in turn, is destroying our sense of wonder by suffocating the inner child in us.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Sept 25, 2006 0:52:21 GMT -5
Having said that, Doomsie, I must admit that yes, Spidey is the one big exception (that I know of, that is...) when it comes to this mess... Peter is clearly still written (for the most part) like the quintaessential hero of the Marvel of old, but even then, for me, there exists the excetion within an exception of his behavior during CW, as the Spider-Man I love & know would not have fought Cap & his Secret Avengers under the circumstances depicted there.
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 25, 2006 7:37:17 GMT -5
Whoo, bobc, for a second I was thinking you were going senile on me! Yeah, I'd agree with your assessment of the issues prior to the Thomas/Adams run. And yes, X-Men did stop new material with that Hulk issue, around #65 or #66.
But despite the poor art leading up to Adams, I did like when the team "graduated" from the blue and yellow uniforms and got their own individual ones. Funny I say that, because I did think it was really cool during Jim Lee's run on the title when they went back to those same yellow unis...
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Where is this Busiek podcast, anyway!? Also, just wanted to add another one, again more recent. (Thank you, back issues!)