Least favorite period

[Shiryu]

Talking about Volume 1 only, what's your least favorite period / arc ? (the one you regret having bought basically, or that you are more than happy you didn't buy).
And why ?

[dlw66]

As stated elsewhere, the Avengers in the early-mid 200's were a waste of my money. Yes, I know the whole Trial of Yellowjacket arc is in that material, but the art was so bad (see the writer/artist poll elsewhere on these boards), and some of the stories as well, that if I were not such a completist (NA, anyone??) I wouldn't have bought those issues. Thank the Lord that Buscema was there to rescue the book!

[bobc]

hmmmm I can't really answer this question because I tend to just forget the periods that were bad or lame or just plain boring. For instance, I barely remember the Yellowjacket trial because it seemed so histrionic and trashy--and just plain dumb. I kinda recall those Shadow Wraith thingees as being really stupid.

[bobc]

Okay--I just looked at the covers gallery and Dlw66, you hit the nail on the head. That whole period of the early 200's through the time John Buscema came back was just dreadful. My GOD I'm suprised any of us stuck with the Avengers through that craptastic period. I actually bursted out laughing at some of those old covers--and a few I have no memory of whatsoever, which is probably even worse.

[Bored Yesterday]

Oh come on now, people. I LOVED that period. I really did. It wasn't the BEST. Sure, but there is at least one extended run of issues that was much worse. Bob Harrass lost his edge after the Gatherer's storyline. And Deodato's artwork, while sometimes exhibiting interesting panel layouts, and exhibiting some good static scenes -- fails to tell a story. Let me elaborate on the inanity that became the Avengers from issue 382 to 402. In stream of conciousness format, I don't know which particular creators are best blamed for the travesty of these issues. Many of the problems began in preceding years, but became worse and worse as bad plot point and characterization was piled onto one another.

The last 50 issues of volume I made almost no sense whatsoever. Hercules switched from being an ancient warrior to being a gym sock jock type. Wasp turned into a bug person. Black Widow provided leadership to the team through the shear presence of her buxom self and lack of personality. Giant Man had a bunch of little pouches sewn onto his shirt where his arms protruded out. Whitman, Crystal, and Sersi wore matching jackets like a bunch of fire fighters. Deodato's artwork absolutely failed to tell stories. Instead we had people standing around looking grim and posing like a bunch of catalog models. Quicksilver was built like Hercules. Some of these things were tolerable through many of the stories, up through the climax of the Gatherers, I say. But it all fell apart after about issue 382, an I suppose I can see why Onslaught looked like a good idea at the time.

I could go on, but it would just sound whiney. I'm just trying to make a point. The trial of Yellow Jacket at least had coherant stories, artwork that told the stories, and a lineup that looked like the Avengers.

[Bored Yesterday]

And the Trial of Yellowjacket period featured Egghead as a really cool villain. I LOVED how they brought him back out of the Silver Age to reassemble the Masters of Evil -- and they were extremely villainous in traditional 4-color fashion. Captured Pym to make him do work on evil machinery type stuff. I liked that. That's good comic book fun. And it really built up the pressure over several issues, and developed the story until it was kind of plausible. Seeing Pym, a founder of the Avengers bottom out was wicked.

Was this before Frank Miller had Kingpin put the screws on Daredevil or did Egghead's plot against Pym simply copycat it? Either way, it's the same kind of thing, but with a different tone. That devious character assassination type of villainy is presented Avengers-fashion. And I say it was done successfully. That storyline was a defining moment for Pym and the Avengers. It led up to his divorce from Jan and his departure from the team. Interesting stories grew out of that period.

Can anyone say as much for the last 20 issues of Avengers Volume I?

[Shiryu]

I actually totally agree with BoredYesterday. Maybe it's because I started reading Avengers exactly during the trial of Yellowjacket, but that period is one of my favs, and I even like the art a lot (that's how the Avengers look for me when I think about them).

As for the worse period, I haven't read every single issue of Volume 1 (not even a third of them I'm afraid), but I think the Crossing and the issues just before Onslaught and Heroes Reborn were pretty bad.

[Bored Yesterday]

Take another look at those early 200s. Jim Shooter's second run had a lot of high points, like the fight with Ghost Rider, the Miracle Man issue where the big 3 teamed up with Silver Surfer and Tigra joined. Spider-man almost joined the Avengers in 236. She Hulk and Captain Marvel join for the first time in there someplace. Hawkeye returns after being gone a few years. Some real landmark issues.

And as far as that fight with Ghost Rider, I just loved the part where Thor throws his hammer, GR dodges then turns his bike around and catches up to the hammer in mid flight. Grabs ahold of it -- and as the hammer comes streaking back to Thor's hand, GR is along for the ride -- and POW -- thumps old Goldilocks good. GR's hellfire really does a number on Cap and Tigra too. And in the old days when Iron Man had to open and close his eyeslits manually, GR puts his hand on the face plate and lets loose with that hellfire and roasts old Tony Bologna in his armor. It's a really good fight. I think at the end, the Avengers regroup and take him all together. Dang, but that's a good fight. Issue 214 is a winner.

[bobc]

I'm curious--how old are you guys? I'm thinking this might be a generational thing. I'm 40. Seems like a lot of people's favorite eras were when they first started reading. I started reading in the mid 70's, but quickly collected the older stuff via Marvel Triple Action. I've seen the Avengers ebb and flow over the years, and have many favorite runs.

By the way I didn't mean to imply that the early-mid 200's were the absolute worst, I just didn't like them much. Heroes Reborn was infinitely worse. I can barely stand to even think of it. Good GOD.

I'd say Bendis' run is one of the worst--but I just can't bring myself to see his work as the Avengers. It's more like Marvel Team Up or something. Only more boring.

Bored--I don't remember that Ghost Rider stuff with Thor. I think I'll buy that CD rom thingee and refresh my meory.

[Bored Yesterday]

I'm 33. The earliest issue I remember buying new was number 184. I had access to older stories though, through reprints and an Antique collecting uncle. So, the older issues were always a part of the story for me. I only recently have been collecting and reading the bulk of volume I.

I agree, the issues that first hook a reader always somehow define that reader's preference. I suppose that's natural.

I don't count Heroes Reborn. New Avengers, I count, but I don't read anymore.

[bobc]

Hey--who was the artist on Heroes Reborn? Was that Liefield? I've blotted the whole thing out of my memory, except for the Wasp and her insect look which was just vile.

I do videogames for a living and one day, I swear to God, the entire art dept went into a Rob Liefield bashing craze! Artists were frantically on the internet, trying to find the most rancid examples of his most "creative" anatomy. One guy found a drawing of Captain America that was so deformed, it looked like he had breast implants! It was awesome--so he animated Cap's breasts so they bounced to and fro. It was sheer evil!

Poor Rob, he is synonymous with bad 90's comic art. The poor thing.

[Abe]

Agreed on two eras being the worst in Avengers vol I-dom. Post Gatherer's Harras, especially since I liked the idea of the Gatherers. It was fresh and interesting. I have the 375 poster on my wall as I speak

The other is time after Against the Gods (Is that its name) and Under Siege and before they kicked off Gilgamesh and brought on Sersi.

To answer a previous question, I'm 29. I started reading Avengers at Under Siege and loved it and then really got a kick out of the Against the Gods storyline (or whatever it is called). I really liked the later stuff too, at the time, but in retrospect, having read the entire Avengers histroy, it was really weak.

Sad too, because I love Monica Rambeau and Black Knight and Quasar and they were in this run hard. I do have a soft spot for Avengers 303 though, the one where Q and the FF and both teams of Avengers and Firelord are going up against the Supernova toe to toe. I loved that.

-Abe

[Shiryu]

I'm 24 but and I started reading Avengers in 1990 (with the Elfqueen story by Shooter and Milgrom, those issues arrived in Italy years later compared to the States because of some publishing problems). I probably like that period so much because it was my first encounter with the Avengers.

Sadly I was looking for a Spiderman book so I quit the Avengers shortly after, just at the end of the trial of YJ, so now I have to look for those old issues paying them 3 or 4 times more

[ultron69]

Jun 1, 2006 12:18:59 GMT -5 bobc said:

I'm curious--how old are you guys? I'm thinking this might be a generational thing. I'm 40. Seems like a lot of people's favorite eras were when they first started reading. I started reading in the mid 70's, but quickly collected the older stuff via Marvel Triple Action. I've seen the Avengers ebb and flow over the years, and have many favorite runs.

By the way I didn't mean to imply that the early-mid 200's were the absolute worst, I just didn't like them much. Heroes Reborn was infinitely worse. I can barely stand to even think of it. Good GOD.

I'd say Bendis' run is one of the worst--but I just can't bring myself to see his work as the Avengers. It's more like Marvel Team Up or something. Only more boring.

Bored--I don't remember that Ghost Rider stuff with Thor. I think I'll buy that CD rom thingee and refresh my meory.

I started collecting the Avengers around #160-161, though I did get some Marvel TRiple Actions and some older back issues as well. I'm as guiltty as anyone as favoring the era I grew up in. It seems like you value the art far more than the writing. To me, the writing is far more important. As far as that art, though, I'l agree that the art from #203-211 is not very god, with Gene Colan having penciled most of those, and Carmine Infantino and Don Newton one each. The writing from #200-218 is goor, but not great. I'd say that maybe 6 out of those 19 issues in not quite up to snuff.
To answer the original question, wel, I don't realy know yet. Maybe in a few more months, after I've gotten through erading all of my old issues.

[ultron69]

Sept 22, 2009 8:49:45 GMT -5 ultron69 said:

Jun 1, 2006 12:18:59 GMT -5 bobc said:

I'm curious--how old are you guys? I'm thinking this might be a generational thing. I'm 40. Seems like a lot of people's favorite eras were when they first started reading. I started reading in the mid 70's, but quickly collected the older stuff via Marvel Triple Action. I've seen the Avengers ebb and flow over the years, and have many favorite runs.

By the way I didn't mean to imply that the early-mid 200's were the absolute worst, I just didn't like them much. Heroes Reborn was infinitely worse. I can barely stand to even think of it. Good GOD.

I'd say Bendis' run is one of the worst--but I just can't bring myself to see his work as the Avengers. It's more like Marvel Team Up or something. Only more boring.

Bored--I don't remember that Ghost Rider stuff with Thor. I think I'll buy that CD rom thingee and refresh my meory.

I started collecting the Avengers around #160-161, though I did get some Marvel Triple Actions and some older back issues as well. I'm as guilty as anyone as favoring the era I grew up in. It seems like you value the art far more than the writing. To me, the writing is far more important. As far as that art, though, I’ll agree that the art from #203-211 is not very god, with Gene Colan having penciled most of those, and Carmine Infantino and Don Newton one each. The writing from #200-218 is good, but not great. I'd say that maybe 6 out of those 19 issues in not quite up to snuff.
To answer the original question, well, I don't really know yet. Maybe in a few more months, after I've gotten through reading all of my old issues.

[defdave]

I'm 38. I started reading the Avengers with #211, and I have since bought up the entire series.

My least favorite era is that long stretch between 301 and 343. This includes the runs by Byrne, Nicieza and Hama. The worst of those was Hama, in which we see Dr. Doom defeated by a cupcake. (Almost as bad as being defeated by sneezing powder in Vol. 1 #25).

I didn't detest The Crossing while it was happening, but the way that it ended... or rather didn't end... ticked me off. In retrospect I don't like that whole run, but at the time it was coming out I was on board and enjoying it. However, the wheels totally fell off after #395. Those last few issues were astoundingly horrible, completely incomprehensible. The crossover issue about the Zodiac Sign comes to mind, as do the Mark Waid/"Benedict" issues of 398 and 399.

It's hard to believe comic book professionals produced those books.

--DefDave

[freedomfighter]

Sept 22, 2009 8:50:32 GMT -5 ultron69 said:

Sept 22, 2009 8:49:45 GMT -5 ultron69 said:

Jun 1, 2006 12:18:59 GMT -5 bobc said:

I'm curious--how old are you guys? I'm thinking this might be a generational thing. I'm 40. Seems like a lot of people's favorite eras were when they first started reading. I started reading in the mid 70's, but quickly collected the older stuff via Marvel Triple Action. I've seen the Avengers ebb and flow over the years, and have many favorite runs.

By the way I didn't mean to imply that the early-mid 200's were the absolute worst, I just didn't like them much. Heroes Reborn was infinitely worse. I can barely stand to even think of it. Good GOD.

I'd say Bendis' run is one of the worst--but I just can't bring myself to see his work as the Avengers. It's more like Marvel Team Up or something. Only more boring.

Bored--I don't remember that Ghost Rider stuff with Thor. I think I'll buy that CD rom thingee and refresh my meory.

I started collecting the Avengers around #160-161, though I did get some Marvel Triple Actions and some older back issues as well. I'm as guilty as anyone as favoring the era I grew up in. It seems like you value the art far more than the writing. To me, the writing is far more important. As far as that art, though, I’ll agree that the art from #203-211 is not very god, with Gene Colan having penciled most of those, and Carmine Infantino and Don Newton one each. The writing from #200-218 is good, but not great. I'd say that maybe 6 out of those 19 issues in not quite up to snuff.
To answer the original question, well, I don't really know yet. Maybe in a few more months, after I've gotten through reading all of my old issues.

man you're reviving some pretty old threads! but it's good to see activity anyway. I'll give ya an exalt for revving things up a bit here.
I'd actually wanted to post something about one of the most truly awful issues of Avengers I'd ever seen.
Avengers 393: "Dark Days Dawn" (a fitting title)
first the cover
www.leaderslair.com/avengers/avengers393.jpg (note the scan is actually slightly out of focus which really saves you from some of the annoying Image style sketchy, overmuscled details on the figures. Lucky you)
- Uh, Ed Benes could you learn to draw in perspective? Hank Pym's arms are bigger than his chest. His trapezius (neck) muscles are bigger than his head. Do Pym particles now make people grow in disproportionate ways? Also it might have been smart to draw the Wasp in costume instead of street clothes, so that people know why Hank is so upset.
Pages 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 are all double spreads that you have to turn the comic SIDEWAYS to read. The art is so poorly laid out they might as well be printed backwards and upside down. Mike Deodato at his worst. The pencils looks like Herb Trimpe on magic mushrooms.
Pages 6 and 7 are sort of a double spread too with a bunch of little panels. A ton of stuff happens here that makes no sense. First the art team didn't know the difference between Black Knight and the revived Swordsman, so they kind of combined the characters into one with the art. then the editors didn't catch it and to cover their butts on this gigantic gaffe they threw in a reference in the letter column saying and I quote "with this being our Halloween issue, we decided to have a little fun with this issue, courtesy of our esteemed creative team. If you can properly guess which member of earth's mightiest heroes is wearing a HALLOWEEN COSTUME..."
that was how they covered it.
Keep in mind this is during the Crossing and people had been murdered left and right, the mansion was breached, and we're supposed to believe someone said "I'll throw on a costume for sh*ts and giggles."
Bah! Just 'fess up...
Hercules punches a helmetless evil brainwashed by Kang Tony Stark in the face and Stark just shrugs it off and aims a repulsor (set on kill, I guess) at him. Hmm, well Hercules is Hercules, even at its highest setting he's got a fairly good chance of surviving a repulsor beam. Definitely a much better chance than, say, the Wasp.
Who just decided to dive in front of Hercules to save him from get blasted...
What the...
WHY WOULD JAN DIVE IN FRONT OF A GOD WHO GETS PUNCHED BY THE HULK AND LAUGHS IT OFF???
Reflex? Sorry, no. Not buying that. She's been an Avenger for years. her battle reflexes are better than that. I've seen Herc get knocked into the stratosphere and come back for more. A few issue prior, Ares using Thunderstrike hit the God of Strength with lightning bolts and Herc just got annoyed. He's very hard to kill.
The Wasp would know this. The only way this scene could've been dumber is if, she'd pushed Cap out of the way "No he's only got an invincible shield to protect him, must jump in front of the death ray! AIEEE!!"
Hank then grows to about 400 feet tall and smashes through the top of Jan's Long Island home, but oddly enough only through the top of his body because we dont see his legs. if they'd grown in proportion to the upper body that Deodato draws Hank would've been halfway to the moon (I exaggerate, but so does Deodato...). Hank then tries to kill Stark by crushing his armor.
Well Thor and Hulk haven't even been able to do that, so Hank probably won't be able to...oh wait, he's doing it. Hank's not that strong. Well why should stuff start making sense now?
Hank then gets talked out of killing Stark, merely squeezing him until he's unconscious and says "take him...before I do something I might regret later."
And then proceeds to drop the unconscious Tony Stark fifty feet with his unhelmeted head aimed directly at the floor. What would hank have done if he WAS trying to kill him???
Luckily a teleportation portal opens up and swallows Stark before he falls to his death and he disappears seemingly into Kang's clutches.
Jan is barely alive (gee wonder if Hercules with his incredibly powerful demigod frame would be "barely alive" after getting hit by a repulsor. More likely he'd be brushing the soot off his costume and getting pissed off that he'd have to replace his shirt) and hank decides he can save her. HE MUST SAVE HER!
By the way guys, Stark disappeared. Our old friend's been killing us. Kang took him. We got a dozen Avengers standing around. Anybody want to look into that?
No? No? ...Ok.
Next up another two page sideways spread and this one is primarily dialogue! DIALOGUE!! Where the alternate future brother of Luna and second child of Pietro and Crystal kidnaps his baby sister and again I quote "With a wave of his lithe hand Tuc seduces the two Avengers into unconsciousness."
Seduces? Couldn't break out the thesaurus for a better word? I keep getting images of dim lights and some Barry White playing the background as he 'seduces' them...
Next two pages are ANOTHER weird double spread, and this one is of hank putting jan into a machine to save her and some dialogue.
I figure we've fit about three actual pages of storytelling in between Deodato's excessive layouts.
Next two pages, come on, you can guess...come on?
That's right, another sideways double page layout! My head hurts. Hank turns on a machine! A cocoon forms around Jan! Woooo! That needed a two page sideways layout, didn't it?
Didn't it??
We then go outside and a sort of two page layout, but not exactly where the Avengers find Quicky and Crystal just before a small two engine plane comes out of the sky about to crash. Well these are Earth's Mightiest Heroes, it's a small two engine plane, I'm sure they'll do something. crystal will create an updraft stop the plane from falling too fast, Vision will fly up and see if there's anyone on board increase his density and smash through the plane and pull the occupants out and some other stuff. they'll have a plan.
And they do have a plan.
It's called "duck for cover."
What if someone's on board?
Shouldn't they to save these persons?
Nah, dude, it's a plane crash. Someone could get HURT if they did something heroic...
Ok, even if for some reason they can't stop the plane, why does the Vision duck? Seriously? Intangibility not a good enough defense to not getting hit? Really? REALLY?
The stupidity of this book is making my ears bleed.
Luckily the plane only had one occupant and that person walks away unharmed from the crash.
It's Madame Masque and she tells them "we have to stop Tony Stark...and we have to stop him now!"
Yeah, we kinda picked up on that already seeing as how he killed three people and tried for a couple more, but thanks for the hot tip, Masque.
By the way thanks for crashing your plane just to tell us that. The forest fire you just started is gonna be a pain to put out. There's this thing called a phone, get your message across and much less crash-y.
Just saying.
Overall one of the worst comics I've ever read in my life. This is the lowest point to me.

[humanbelly]

Sept 22, 2009 10:39:11 GMT -5 defdave said:

I'm 38. I started reading the Avengers with #211, and I have since bought up the entire series.

My least favorite era is that long stretch between 301 and 343. This includes the runs by Byrne, Nicieza and Hama. The worst of those was Hama, in which we see Dr. Doom defeated by a cupcake. (Almost as bad as being defeated by sneezing powder in Vol. 1 #25).

I didn't detest The Crossing while it was happening, but the way that it ended... or rather didn't end... ticked me off. In retrospect I don't like that whole run, but at the time it was coming out I was on board and enjoying it. However, the wheels totally fell off after #395. Those last few issues were astoundingly horrible, completely incomprehensible. The crossover issue about the Zodiac Sign comes to mind, as do the Mark Waid/"Benedict" issues of 398 and 399.

It's hard to believe comic book professionals produced those books.

--DefDave

Wow, DefDave, you've been quietly lurking for a couple of years, eh? A silent senior member, as it were. It's kind of an honor to have you chime in!

Least fave period?

#1: The current one. Truly. Hands down. The last five years, say. Starting w/ that Dell Rusk/Red Skull Mt. Rushmore chemical weapon attack arc that took a MILLION issues to tell one very brief story. Right through Dis-Assembled and up to the present. I keep hoping. . .

#2: Not an era, but an arc. "The Crossing Line", which was contained in the period DefDave mentioned. Incomprehensible 6-part "epic" by Larry Hama or Nicieza, I believe. Involved the Avengers, Alpha Flight, the Atlanteans, the Russian Navy, and possibly some other force. It was hopelessly bad. An embarassment.

#3: That long period where Al Milgrom was the penciller-- but mostly because I find that his work is so stiff and limiting. The stories weren't bad at all, and Joe Sinnott made a game effort of saving the visuals.

#4: Hoo-boy, I'm prepared for backlash, here. The bulk of the first 15 issues. Yep. Loved 'em when I was a kid. But when taken all together, it becomes an almost comical revolving door of schemes and attacks by the Enchantress, the Executioner, Zemo, and assorted other Masters of Evil. Nothing really badly done, mind you. Just kind of a hokey, repetitive formula that wasn't expanding on its differences from what DC was doing at that point, I believe. Just sitting down and reading them for enjoyment (as it were) is rather a chore.

Okay. Go ahead. This rings as kinda blasphemous even to my ears. . .

HB

[ultron69]

It's not an old thread to defdave and me, freedomfighter. :-)
By the way, excellent writeup on #393. I want to tear it to shreds just reading your review!

[ultron69]

Oh, yeah, not that I think of it, the current period is my least favorite. I stopped collecting midway through 2008 because it was so awful. Bendis sucks, but that's a topic for another thread. I hated having two teams call themselves Avengers, when they were opposed to each other. That's like if Magneto decided to call the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants the X-Men. Also, the New Avengers was just plain boring, even though I liked the characters.
EDIT: I just remembered that Shiryu's original post said volume 1 only, so I guess I'll have to think about it some more.

[freedomfighter]

Sept 22, 2009 14:38:31 GMT -5 ultron69 said:

It's not an old thread to defdave and me, freedomfighter. :-)
By the way, excellent writeup on #393. I want to tear it to shreds just reading your review!

Thanks. That's exactly how I felt coming across it and reading it again. I didn't realize how truly awful it was until I got another look at it.
And I'm cool with reviving old threads (new threads to you). Just it's funny as this one was several years old...

[ultron69]

Yeah, I never mde it that far back in the queue, for some reason. One of these days, one of us will have to start a new thread about some of these classic old Avengers titles. I'm up to #256 in my rereading of back issues, and it's getting really good. I may be inspired to write a review one of these days.

[defdave]

<<Wow, DefDave, you've been quietly lurking for a couple of years, eh? A silent senior member, as it were. It's kind of an honor to have you chime in!>>

Well, that's very generous of you to say. I don't come to these boards as often as I would like, but it feels good to know where I can find some knowledgeable Avenger fans.

The current era is also one of my least favorite. A few years ago, Bendis managed to do something even Liefeld couldn't do: he made me stop buying the Avengers. I have been a loyal fan since #211, I have persevered through boring art (Milgrom/Sinnott) and boring writing (Hama), I stayed on the ship when it appeared to be drifting with no direction, I stuck with Volume Two (Liefeld) because it was not normal continuity, but Bendis...

I have issues with his Avengers work starting with his very first issue of Disassembled, but the final straw was that issue of New Avengers that started with 8 or 9 SILENT splash pages! That was inexcusable. I dropped that book. It felt weird not buying Avengers for the first time since I could remember.

I still don't buy New Avengers, the exception was the SECRET INVASION issues, but with Mighty Avengers I came back and have followed that series. The Bendis issues of that were still bitter pills to swallow but at least it seemed more like the "real" Avengers.

I do read Dark Avengers and have mostly enjoyed it. (Latest Ares/Fury issue being an exception). But Dan Slott's MIGHTY AVENGERS is my favorite. That seems to be a minority opinion, and I would surely like a better artist on the book, but Slott is writing the team more to my tastes and sensibilities.

Changing gears, it's funny to me to see you blast "The Crossing Line" story (which was written by Nicieza).
Van can tell you I have been known to defend that story.
It occurred during my least favorite stretch of the book's history (what I called the "Post-Stern Doldrums" in the first ASSEMBLED! book) and there is nothing in "The Crossing Line" that in any way could be seen as an improvement in the direction the series was going at the time, but....

I find it to be a tidy little self-contained story. It's all plot and no character development, far from the best work Fabian has ever done, so I understand why people put it down. But for what it is-- the Avengers in action with other nations' premier superteams-- I find it to be a nice little story that can be read is isolation, meaning outside of any context from the rest of the series.

This is an unpopular opinion, in fact I don't know if anyone has ever agreed with me on it. I've even had to defend the merits of this story from Fabian himself!

I just enjoyed seeing the Avengers, Alpha Flight, Soviet Super Soldiers (or Winter Guard, or whatever they're called) team up against Atlantis. It felt like the Olympics or the World Cup or something seeing all these "national teams" in action together.

I say that I enjoyed it but understand I mean only on its own terms. In the Big Picture, this arc epitomizes everything that was wrong about the book at this time: there was no firm direction from a committed writer, and there was no real personal interaction among the team. This had been the case since Gru fired Stern from the book.

Then Hama comes on and I didn't like anything he did. I hated the new mansion, the new UN connection, the bizarre notion of Sandman and Spidey as Avengers, Rage (hated Rage: dumb costume, generic Angry Black Guy, just Luke Cage with a Billy Batson problem... and then there's his grandmother's cupcake defeating Dr. Doom...)...

When Harras started his regular run with issue 343, it was a breath of fresh air for me and the book had a sense of direction it had been missing for years (even if some readers didn't like the direction). This is why I chose to write about the Harras era in ASSEMBLED!.

And I know what you are saying about the early Lee issues. A lot of seeds were planted in those issues (Masters of Evil, Immortus, Kang, Wonder Man) that wouldn't really bloom until Roy Thomas started revisiting some of those ideas.

Of the early issues, #9 (Wonder Man ish) is probably my favorite.

Also, everybody points to #16 as this huge landmark issue that really defined the future of the series. And, no doubt, it must have been revolutionary at the time. The other Marvel teams, FF and X-Men, had static memberships. There was no reason to think the Avengers' roster should change. But for it do so with three under-powered BAD GUYS... very brave choice.

But the real landmark for me is #28, where Hank and Jan return to the team, ending the Quartet era. Because only with this issue do we finally get the sense that the door to Avengers Mansion is a rotating one, that former members can come back and the roster can always be in flux.

To me, the series really picks up sometime around issues 40-43, after Thomas wraps up the Black Widow stuff. From that point forward, the series is soaring. And the Hercules vs. Tartarus throwdown in #50 is a personal favorite.

[humanbelly]

Sept 24, 2009 10:17:09 GMT -5 defdave said:

<<Wow, DefDave, you've been quietly lurking for a couple of years, eh? A silent senior member, as it were. It's kind of an honor to have you chime in!>>

Well, that's very generous of you to say. I don't come to these boards as often as I would like, but it feels good to know where I can find some knowledgeable Avenger fans.

The current era is also one of my least favorite. A few years ago, Bendis managed to do something even Liefeld couldn't do: he made me stop buying the Avengers. I have been a loyal fan since #211, I have persevered through boring art (Milgrom/Sinnott) and boring writing (Hama), I stayed on the ship when it appeared to be drifting with no direction, I stuck with Volume Two (Liefeld) because it was not normal continuity, but Bendis...

I have issues with his Avengers work starting with his very first issue of Disassembled, but the final straw was that issue of New Avengers that started with 8 or 9 SILENT splash pages! That was inexcusable. I dropped that book. It felt weird not buying Avengers for the first time since I could remember.

I still don't buy New Avengers, the exception was the SECRET INVASION issues, but with Mighty Avengers I came back and have followed that series. The Bendis issues of that were still bitter pills to swallow but at least it seemed more like the "real" Avengers.

I do read Dark Avengers and have mostly enjoyed it. (Latest Ares/Fury issue being an exception). But Dan Slott's MIGHTY AVENGERS is my favorite. That seems to be a minority opinion, and I would surely like a better artist on the book, but Slott is writing the team more to my tastes and sensibilities.

Changing gears, it's funny to me to see you blast "The Crossing Line" story (which was written by Nicieza).
Van can tell you I have been known to defend that story.
It occurred during my least favorite stretch of the book's history (what I called the "Post-Stern Doldrums" in the first ASSEMBLED! book) and there is nothing in "The Crossing Line" that in any way could be seen as an improvement in the direction the series was going at the time, but....

I find it to be a tidy little self-contained story. It's all plot and no character development, far from the best work Fabian has ever done, so I understand why people put it down. But for what it is-- the Avengers in action with other nations' premier superteams-- I find it to be a nice little story that can be read is isolation, meaning outside of any context from the rest of the series.

This is an unpopular opinion, in fact I don't know if anyone has ever agreed with me on it. I've even had to defend the merits of this story from Fabian himself!

I just enjoyed seeing the Avengers, Alpha Flight, Soviet Super Soldiers (or Winter Guard, or whatever they're called) team up against Atlantis. It felt like the Olympics or the World Cup or something seeing all these "national teams" in action together.

I say that I enjoyed it but understand I mean only on its own terms. In the Big Picture, this arc epitomizes everything that was wrong about the book at this time: there was no firm direction from a committed writer, and there was no real personal interaction among the team. This had been the case since Gru fired Stern from the book.

Then Hama comes on and I didn't like anything he did. I hated the new mansion, the new UN connection, the bizarre notion of Sandman and Spidey as Avengers, Rage (hated Rage: dumb costume, generic Angry Black Guy, just Luke Cage with a Billy Batson problem... and then there's his grandmother's cupcake defeating Dr. Doom...)...

When Harras started his regular run with issue 343, it was a breath of fresh air for me and the book had a sense of direction it had been missing for years (even if some readers didn't like the direction). This is why I chose to write about the Harras era in ASSEMBLED!.

And I know what you are saying about the early Lee issues. A lot of seeds were planted in those issues (Masters of Evil, Immortus, Kang, Wonder Man) that wouldn't really bloom until Roy Thomas started revisiting some of those ideas.

Of the early issues, #9 (Wonder Man ish) is probably my favorite.

Also, everybody points to #16 as this huge landmark issue that really defined the future of the series. And, no doubt, it must have been revolutionary at the time. The other Marvel teams, FF and X-Men, had static memberships. There was no reason to think the Avengers' roster should change. But for it do so with three under-powered BAD GUYS... very brave choice.

But the real landmark for me is #28, where Hank and Jan return to the team, ending the Quartet era. Because only with this issue do we finally get the sense that the door to Avengers Mansion is a rotating one, that former members can come back and the roster can always be in flux.

To me, the series really picks up sometime around issues 40-43, after Thomas wraps up the Black Widow stuff. From that point forward, the series is soaring. And the Hercules vs. Tartarus throwdown in #50 is a personal favorite.

Ha! I think you must have put poor Mr. Nicieza in an uncomfortable pickle for himself (or any creative artist)-- in the position of arguing against
the merits of his own work! You can't possibly tell someone they were wrong for liking it-- but at the same time it's INCREDIBLY difficult to accept praise for work that you know isn't your best. . .

The too-much-plot aspect of Crossing Line (along with the general abandonment of characterization) is exactly why it fails, I believe. Even at 6-parts long, the story is far, far, FAR too vast to be effective. There are so many enormous elements that none are given their proper due, and the overall effect is of being rushed through w/out any sense of the emotional impact that's being reached for. All those huge groups of people lost in different hostile dimensional environments, late in the series? Feh. Just another crisis by this point. Being able to surrender to the story is a key element of any narrative medium (film, theater, books, radio, comics, etc). Characterization is the PRIMARY (if not only!) way to initiate and maintain that. And if events become too broad, too large, too devastating, too grand, etc, they just turn into a wash of activity with which we never become involved.

BUT-- anyone can like any story, of course! Far be it from me to say, "No, Def Dave, you MUSTN'T enjoy that arc! Bad!"

Okay, gotta head home from work--

HB

[defdave]

I don't disagree with any of your points. The story certainly deserved more breathing room to allow for more characterization and emotional investment from the reader.

Let's remember that this arc came out bi-weekly during the summer of 1990 (when a certain new SPIDER-MAN book by Todd McFarlane was blowing up the market). It had to fit into the summer schedule and it was probably fairly rushed in the production, as evidenced by the guest artwork.

I can get a hold of Fabian and Tom Palmer, I should ask them for their recollections on the deadlines surrounding this story.

But all the faults I think can be summarized into this: the writer was not signed on for a long-term commitment.

Fabe (who had been around to script over the last of the Byrne plots involving Nebula and Spider-Man) came in and whipped up a plot for the bi-weekly and he was out. If this had been the regular writer and the beginning of a long run then I think we would have seen the developed nuance that you rightly mention was missing.

In other words, I'm aware of the faults, but give me "The Crossing Line" any day over "The Super Nova Saga" (301-303..."Brain Leeches"?), "The Tetrarchs of Entropy" (330-331), "The Collection Obsession" (334-339), or anything featuring Gilgamesh, Rage or Sandman. (all of which were fairly contemporary to "The Crossing Line")

[humanbelly]

I hadn't taken the production context into account, I must admit. I'd be curious to hear how the artists in particular felt about that schedule (especially Tom Palmer! Geeze, isn't the inker, like, at the mercy of just about everyone else?) And the shifting-writers-syndrome is never good for any title, ever. I'd forgotten about the abrupt end to Byrne's Spiderman experiment (if this is the right instance I'm thinking of): Cap completely talks Spidey into joining, telling him he'd be ideal--- and then at the end of that Vault (Project Pegasus?) mission, tells him that he just doesn't work well in a team environment, sorry, but thanks for giving it a try. Wha-?

Ho-ho! And that's quite a collection of lame arcs you bring to mind, there! They always tickle me. Now, see-- I would tend to include Crossing Line on this list, though. But, lordy, they were a wreck. "Tetrarchs of Entropy" always sticks with me particularly because. . . what in god's green acre does their flippin' name MEAN? It's something like "Deputy Governor of Things Falling Apart Over Time". It sounds cool on the tongue, but I don't recall it having any literal significance at all to the story. I may be mis-remembering,of course. I do also recall that the story started out one way (semi-cosmically), and then wound itself up, like, in Flatbush or Queens or something-- yet again putting a nice, normal, civilian neighborhood in peril.

I think I do still remain the one person that thought young Rage could have been developed beyond his cliche'd image, though.

HB

[thunderstrike78]

Sept 25, 2009 5:18:05 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

I'd forgotten about the abrupt end to Byrne's Spiderman experiment (if this is the right instance I'm thinking of): Cap completely talks Spidey into joining, telling him he'd be ideal--- and then at the end of that Vault (Project Pegasus?) mission, tells him that he just doesn't work well in a team environment, sorry, but thanks for giving it a try. Wha-?

I vividly remember that Byrne story. It was actually the first Avengers storyline I ever bought, thanks to Spider-Man's appearance. I was a die-hard Spidey fan at the time, and I made a point to purchase any book in which he appeared (forgive me, I couldn't have been older than 13 years old at the time). I was very excited at the time, and really enjoyed the whole story (not being familiar with any of the Avengers, I didn't see anything amiss), but I was terribly disappointed when the story ended with Cap telling him "Thanks, but no thanks."

Incidentally, I always thought the whole "you don't work well in a team environment" argument didn't make any sense. I always thought he would work extremely well in a team environment, and that's one of the things I can't argue with about Bendis' run (although, I admit, there are a number of other things I can take issue with).

[humanbelly]

Sept 25, 2009 15:34:59 GMT -5 thunderstrike78 said:

[Incidentally, I always thought the whole "you don't work well in a team environment" argument didn't make any sense. I always thought he would work extremely well in a team environment, and that's one of the things I can't argue with about Bendis' run (although, I admit, there are a number of other things I can take issue with).

Oh. Wow.
You have affirmed one of my pet thesis statements.
I imagine there are a couple of sets of eyes rolling around here, as I've launched off on this point at least a couple of times in my five months here. (Wow, only five? Man, I've talked enough for two years' worth. . . )

Spidey simply is NOT a loner, in spite of what he even maintains about himself. He's had entire, long runs of TITLES dedicated to him teaming up with other heroes. He's extremely gregarious. Clearly loves interacting with other folks. He's always been gifted at "reading" other people/heroes/villains. If anything, his power-set makes him even more valuable as a team-player than most (speed, spider-sense, and webbing particularly useful in covering folks' backs in a pinch or on the fly. Strength, intelligence, agility and webbing again are formidable as offensive resources). EVERYBODY knows him and has teamed with him, and he seems to be generally well-liked-- in a class-clown sort of way. And several heroes have shown a unique mixture of respect and paternalism at one time or another (Reed Richards, Tony Stark, and Captain America all come to mind). And he is always- ALWAYS- a moral compass.

I don't think he's always being showcased well in NA at all, but I do still like the fact that he's there.

HB

[jenyoganewyork]

Sept 22, 2009 11:39:30 GMT -5 freedomfighter said:

Sept 22, 2009 8:50:32 GMT -5 ultron69 said:

Sept 22, 2009 8:49:45 GMT -5 ultron69 said:

I started collecting the Avengers around #160-161, though I did get some Marvel Triple Actions and some older back issues as well. I'm as guilty as anyone as favoring the era I grew up in. It seems like you value the art far more than the writing. To me, the writing is far more important. As far as that art, though, I’ll agree that the art from #203-211 is not very god, with Gene Colan having penciled most of those, and Carmine Infantino and Don Newton one each. The writing from #200-218 is good, but not great. I'd say that maybe 6 out of those 19 issues in not quite up to snuff.
To answer the original question, well, I don't really know yet. Maybe in a few more months, after I've gotten through reading all of my old issues.

man you're reviving some pretty old threads! but it's good to see activity anyway. I'll give ya an exalt for revving things up a bit here.
I'd actually wanted to post something about one of the most truly awful issues of Avengers I'd ever seen.
Avengers 393: "Dark Days Dawn" (a fitting title)
first the cover
www.leaderslair.com/avengers/avengers393.jpg (note the scan is actually slightly out of focus which really saves you from some of the annoying Image style sketchy, overmuscled details on the figures. Lucky you)
- Uh, Ed Benes could you learn to draw in perspective? Hank Pym's arms are bigger than his chest. His trapezius (neck) muscles are bigger than his head. Do Pym particles now make people grow in disproportionate ways? Also it might have been smart to draw the Wasp in costume instead of street clothes, so that people know why Hank is so upset.
Pages 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 are all double spreads that you have to turn the comic SIDEWAYS to read. The art is so poorly laid out they might as well be printed backwards and upside down. Mike Deodato at his worst. The pencils looks like Herb Trimpe on magic mushrooms.
Pages 6 and 7 are sort of a double spread too with a bunch of little panels. A ton of stuff happens here that makes no sense. First the art team didn't know the difference between Black Knight and the revived Swordsman, so they kind of combined the characters into one with the art. then the editors didn't catch it and to cover their butts on this gigantic gaffe they threw in a reference in the letter column saying and I quote "with this being our Halloween issue, we decided to have a little fun with this issue, courtesy of our esteemed creative team. If you can properly guess which member of earth's mightiest heroes is wearing a HALLOWEEN COSTUME..."
that was how they covered it.
Keep in mind this is during the Crossing and people had been murdered left and right, the mansion was breached, and we're supposed to believe someone said "I'll throw on a costume for sh*ts and giggles."
Bah! Just 'fess up...
Hercules punches a helmetless evil brainwashed by Kang Tony Stark in the face and Stark just shrugs it off and aims a repulsor (set on kill, I guess) at him. Hmm, well Hercules is Hercules, even at its highest setting he's got a fairly good chance of surviving a repulsor beam. Definitely a much better chance than, say, the Wasp.
Who just decided to dive in front of Hercules to save him from get blasted...
What the...
WHY WOULD JAN DIVE IN FRONT OF A GOD WHO GETS PUNCHED BY THE HULK AND LAUGHS IT OFF???
Reflex? Sorry, no. Not buying that. She's been an Avenger for years. her battle reflexes are better than that. I've seen Herc get knocked into the stratosphere and come back for more. A few issue prior, Ares using Thunderstrike hit the God of Strength with lightning bolts and Herc just got annoyed. He's very hard to kill.
The Wasp would know this. The only way this scene could've been dumber is if, she'd pushed Cap out of the way "No he's only got an invincible shield to protect him, must jump in front of the death ray! AIEEE!!"
Hank then grows to about 400 feet tall and smashes through the top of Jan's Long Island home, but oddly enough only through the top of his body because we dont see his legs. if they'd grown in proportion to the upper body that Deodato draws Hank would've been halfway to the moon (I exaggerate, but so does Deodato...). Hank then tries to kill Stark by crushing his armor.
Well Thor and Hulk haven't even been able to do that, so Hank probably won't be able to...oh wait, he's doing it. Hank's not that strong. Well why should stuff start making sense now?
Hank then gets talked out of killing Stark, merely squeezing him until he's unconscious and says "take him...before I do something I might regret later."
And then proceeds to drop the unconscious Tony Stark fifty feet with his unhelmeted head aimed directly at the floor. What would hank have done if he WAS trying to kill him???
Luckily a teleportation portal opens up and swallows Stark before he falls to his death and he disappears seemingly into Kang's clutches.
Jan is barely alive (gee wonder if Hercules with his incredibly powerful demigod frame would be "barely alive" after getting hit by a repulsor. More likely he'd be brushing the soot off his costume and getting pissed off that he'd have to replace his shirt) and hank decides he can save her. HE MUST SAVE HER!
By the way guys, Stark disappeared. Our old friend's been killing us. Kang took him. We got a dozen Avengers standing around. Anybody want to look into that?
No? No? ...Ok.
Next up another two page sideways spread and this one is primarily dialogue! DIALOGUE!! Where the alternate future brother of Luna and second child of Pietro and Crystal kidnaps his baby sister and again I quote "With a wave of his lithe hand Tuc seduces the two Avengers into unconsciousness."
Seduces? Couldn't break out the thesaurus for a better word? I keep getting images of dim lights and some Barry White playing the background as he 'seduces' them...
Next two pages are ANOTHER weird double spread, and this one is of hank putting jan into a machine to save her and some dialogue.
I figure we've fit about three actual pages of storytelling in between Deodato's excessive layouts.
Next two pages, come on, you can guess...come on?
That's right, another sideways double page layout! My head hurts. Hank turns on a machine! A cocoon forms around Jan! Woooo! That needed a two page sideways layout, didn't it?
Didn't it??
We then go outside and a sort of two page layout, but not exactly where the Avengers find Quicky and Crystal just before a small two engine plane comes out of the sky about to crash. Well these are Earth's Mightiest Heroes, it's a small two engine plane, I'm sure they'll do something. crystal will create an updraft stop the plane from falling too fast, Vision will fly up and see if there's anyone on board increase his density and smash through the plane and pull the occupants out and some other stuff. they'll have a plan.
And they do have a plan.
It's called "duck for cover."
What if someone's on board?
Shouldn't they to save these persons?
Nah, dude, it's a plane crash. Someone could get HURT if they did something heroic...
Ok, even if for some reason they can't stop the plane, why does the Vision duck? Seriously? Intangibility not a good enough defense to not getting hit? Really? REALLY?
The stupidity of this book is making my ears bleed.
Luckily the plane only had one occupant and that person walks away unharmed from the crash.
It's Madame Masque and she tells them "we have to stop Tony Stark...and we have to stop him now!"
Yeah, we kinda picked up on that already seeing as how he killed three people and tried for a couple more, but thanks for the hot tip, Masque.
By the way thanks for crashing your plane just to tell us that. The forest fire you just started is gonna be a pain to put out. There's this thing called a phone, get your message across and much less crash-y.
Just saying.
Overall one of the worst comics I've ever read in my life. This is the lowest point to me.

Omigod! This sounds AWFUL! I think I've seen all The Crossing issues in Dollar bins. Now I know why.