Thunderbolts 111?

[ozbot]

So, no discussion about TBolts 111? Alright, I'll get things started.

First, I really do have to commend the use of Jack Flag here. The guy could have been treated as a joke, but instead he's sympathetic and competant-- he actually appears to hold his own for little while.

Songbird's inclusion seems a bit "off," but she adds the necessary counterpoint to the less scrupulous members of the team, and makes you want to root for her all the more. I hope that more members of the team go this route, because if Songbird and her sympathies are in the minority, the book will get too lopsided too quickly to be enjoyable.

Moonstone is so effectively creepy in her manipulations. It's like one of those old timey movies when you want to yell at the screen to warn other people about what you can see that they don't. This, actually, is why I think I like the new direction (don't worry, I'll never say it's a "better" direction!). There is no compromise about the evil these characters can do, but that is also luridly intriguing and makes me want to see what's going to happen next.

The problem with the book so far is the large cast. So many of the characters don't really have anything to do. Radioactive Man contributes to the beginning battle, and Penance deals the coup d grace, but other than that, there is no way to understand who these characters are and what they think about it. Even a throwaway line or two that could hint to such stuff would be appreciated, but this balance of character and plot has been missing in many team books of late, and TBolts is no exception. In fact, because it's such a new team, it's kinda disappointing.

[balok]

This was my last issue. I don't need to see "heroes" acting this way. Marvel won't change its editorial direction until a lot of people quit purchasing and they show Quesada and his henchment out the door. I have to do my part to make that happen.

The story was effectively told and Jack Flag held his own, for awhile. But I was left with the kind of taste in my mouth one has after a night of drinking, when you're not sure at the end just what you were drinking, eating, or smoking, and you're certain you don't want to know.

Heroes would not tolerate the kinds of things the 616 United States government does. What we see - from the government down to the individual heroes - is villainy masquerading as heroism. And we are asked to pay for the privilege of reading this trash. No more, not from me, anyway.

[thew40]

balok said:

What we see - from the government down to the individual heroes - is villainy masquerading as heroism. And we are asked to pay for the privilege of reading this trash. No more, not from me, anyway.

This is the whole point of the book.

~W~

[ozbot]

To elaborate on what W said, I think that you correctly identified the tone of the book and have the appropriate reaction. Your decision to drop the title because of that reaction is entirely in your right, but some people, like myself, am finding this reaction intriguing and finding that it makes for an interesting read. I don't think we are supposed to think that Osborn, Bullseye, Venom, etc. ARE heroes, and I think we are supposed to be on Songbird and Jack Flag's side. What's interesting is tuning in each month to see how the characters are doing and wonder how they are going to get out of this mess. I imagine that there's a similar reason for watching horror movies, and similar reasons why people avoid them.

[balok]

ozbot said:

To elaborate on what W said, I think that you correctly identified the tone of the book and have the appropriate reaction. Your decision to drop the title because of that reaction is entirely in your right, but some people, like myself, am finding this reaction intriguing and finding that it makes for an interesting read. I don't think we are supposed to think that Osborn, Bullseye, Venom, etc. ARE heroes, and I think we are supposed to be on Songbird and Jack Flag's side. What's interesting is tuning in each month to see how the characters are doing and wonder how they are going to get out of this mess. I imagine that there's a similar reason for watching horror movies, and similar reasons why people avoid them.

I don't dispute your perspective, and I might even read a book like this if I didn't regard it as generally reflective of the damage Marvel has done to their universe with Civil War and the Act. Instead of wondering when these characters will achieve redemption, and how, I find myself wondering IF that will ever happen. Not much difference between when and if, I grant you, but enough that I am no longer interested.

I have also dropped New Avengers (some time ago), Fantastic Four, and Iron Man. I am pretty close to done with Marvel [1] - I believe they have made their universe an unpleasant place to read about, an unpleasant place for characters to live. On top of that, I have only one way to express that opinion - take my money away from them. It's not much, but I hope that if enough other people make that statement, they'll understand that fans don't like what they're doing and change it. And if not enough other people make that statement, well, I wish them success, but they will enjoy it without me as a reader. Right now, I believe DC is producing superior material, and I hope the market comes to a similar conclusion.

[1] Amazing Spider-Man, Astonishing X-Men until Whedon leaves, Ghost Rider (I like the character and he's more or less outside of the regular continuity).

[ozbot]

And I'm definately not saying that TBolts 111 is a perfect book. Oh, no. In fact, I would have to see a lot more than just tone and style in order to continue picking up the book. In the same way, there should be a logical momentum to the characters and situations of the TBolts. If it does become akin to DC's Suicide Squad, then we could expect some character growth, a rotating cast of extras, and some high-stakes intrigue with interesting ramifications. It will be hard to sustain any interest in TBolts and any impact in the Marvel Universe if it becomes just shock value. That I will not support.

FWIW, I really just buy Runaways, She Hulk, X-Factor, Iron Fist, Fantastic Four: The End, and occaisonal mini series and tpbs, such as Bru's Cap and especially the Essentials. (My pull list changed with Nextwave just ending and I will start picking up Fantastic Four with McDuffie writing it.) So that should give you some idea of what kind of reader I am.
edit: Oh, and you'd get an even better idea if you read my fanfic at ozbot.typepad.com/marvelflipside

[balok]

Here's the heart of my objection: their leader directed a team member to create collateral damage for the purpose of making Jack Flag look bad. Another team member crippled Flag, deliberately. And the tone of the book was so gleeful. I just don't see any potential for redemption in these characters. They basically took villains, and said "Go be villains on the government's payroll. If you're too villainous, we'll torture and kill you." Considering what Moonstone ordered them to do, I think they'd pretty much have to commit mass murder to cross that line.

Ask yourself this: what would happen to real world law enforcement personnel who did things like this? I think the answer is: they'd be locked up, and for a good long while, and rightly so.

[von Bek]

I think the point of the new 'direction' of the book is that these are no longer villains seeking redemption (like the previous incarnation of the book), but villains trying to figure out how to scape the goverments control, and how they interact with each other. This could become interesting or a bad joke (well, Penance, the former Speedball(!!!!) is already a joke - a really bad one). I´ll continue to follow the book for the moment. And Songbird is still one of my favourites in the MU.

[balok]

IMO, Songbird, a true example of redemption, is about all that book has going for it. And for me, she isn't enough.

[Nutcase65]

As much as I may be embarassed to admit this.

"Speedball fan"

So I am interested in the Penance angle.

I also agree with those who look at this title with interest. Because it is about bad guys being bad guys disguised as good guys.

I'll give it a little while and see how it settles out

[balok]

Speedball was a character tolerable in small doses. I don't much like Penance at all, but that's just because I don't like the character. At least in this case, for Speedball to internalize his negative emotions in this way following Stamford and his subsequent mistreatment in custody and elsewhere makes sense. Like Darth Vader, self-hate is the hate battery that never runs dry.

[Nutcase65]

and the thing is, all that self-internalization, you know it's gonna blow up in everybodies faces, big-time.