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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 7, 2007 16:44:39 GMT -5
SPOILERS!
I won't bother to do my full review for this issue. Suffice to say it's easily the best to date in a series which has varied wildly from great to very poor. But here's the main points:
-The Illuminati gather slowly, and Tony shows them the Skrullektra body.
-There is suspicious talk from all of them as they argue over whether it's an invasion or not.
-Strange points out neither he, Wolverine or Spider-Man could detect Skrullektra.
-Black Bolt suggests maybe they should just give the body to him while his people obliterate their people
-There is shock for a second, then Bolt shouts and the entire room is levelled. You guessed it- Black Bolt is a Skrull!!!
-BATTLE ensues! Namor manages to gut the Bolt-Skrull.
-MORE Skrulls show up, called in by Boltskrull- these are Skrulls of Thor and Colossus! There is a desperate fight, which Iron Man wins by setting off the force of a nuke.
-The Illuminati split up for the last time as Iron Man mopes.
Anyway, this was a GREAT issue which showcases everything I love in Bendis's writing and is frankly better than anything he's put out on "New" in... well, ever, I guess. Or maybe since Breakout. The building tension was well executed, and the actual reveal was freaking fantastic. I suspected Bolt, I think we all did, as he wa sthe most expendable, but the way he revealed himself managed to come as a surprise. There was also a very freaky exorcist-like moment which again was done VERY well. And of course, the art is beautiful.
So basically, with this issue for the very first time I like Bendis's writing as much as some like to say I always have. Because even though EVERYONE will disagree with me, this rocked.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Nov 7, 2007 17:44:08 GMT -5
!!!!!! CONTINUED DISCUSSION OF SPOILERS !!!!!!!
I enjoyed the issue, and have enjoyed on the whole the Illuminati series thus far, The Beyonder issue being the one odd spot.
The "Boltskrull" reveal was actually done pretty well. I was reading down the page, and all I saw at first was Blackbolt and a word bubble. My mind didn't even want to acknowledge the words in the bubble, I was just stuck on the fact that he was speaking... looking around the frame for the illustration of the wave of destruction that I would expect to see when Bolt speaks.
So apparently, these Skrull replacements can either take on the powers of the people they replace or perhaps were bred/created with the powers. Because the "Boltskrull" seemed to be able to do more than just replicate Blackbolt's power.
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 7, 2007 21:55:31 GMT -5
I'm just going by the summary I've read here. Why would Boltskrull reveal himself? he's got undetectable cover and he's surrounded by at least three of the most powerful men on earth. I would say that calls for discretion, myself... Just me I suppose. More importantly is he the Black Bolt that Hulk beat up in World War Hulk? Is he the Black Bolt that voted for banishment? If maybe and I presume anything's possible, what's the timeline on all this, because it seems to me that maybe Hulk picked the wrong guy to beat up on? And if the real Black Bolt was found in time for WWH and if he and the others know about the invasion wouldn't that have taken up some of their interest before the Hulk returned? Sigh. Brain hurt.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Nov 7, 2007 23:02:53 GMT -5
also you can't forget, is this the same boltskrull that lost his wife and kingdom to maximus in the recently crappy Silent War?
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Post by goldenfist on Nov 7, 2007 23:17:12 GMT -5
Silent War wasn't crappy Nutcase65, Last time I saw Black Bolt he was forced to fight Dr.Strange in WWH #4.
The Skrulls want to make earth their home and take it away from the people that live in it.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 8, 2007 12:39:02 GMT -5
I would suspect- and this may just be me- that if it's a *permanent* replacement, then he's been replacing him since the Kree/Skrull War, since Bolt "magically" turned up with the rest in Illuminati #1 without much explanation. But it's also possible he's only been replacing him at some different periods of time. If so, it becomes very interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Black Skrolt who ensured the real Bolt was locked up in Silent War- after all, the Inhumans aren't exactly on friendly terms with Earth so no one on Earth would know he was locked up...
Oh, and bb, as far as I know this issue is post-WWH so God alone knows what was a Skrull and what wasn't- bit that's part of the attraction of the story, because we know as much as the charers.
Oh, and you asked why he'd reveal himself- I forgot to mention one important point, Black Skrolt had the powers of *ALL* of the Illuminati, and Skrullossus had the powers of several of the X-Men. So basically, it was 3 of the Illuminati vs a Skrull who had all their powers PLUS the insane power level of Black Bolt, and could take them via surprise. His odds were good and if he succeeded, Earth heroes were totally screwed. At that point, he just wanted to prevent news of the Skruls from getting out.
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 8, 2007 18:41:40 GMT -5
I would suspect- and this may just be me- that if it's a *permanent* replacement, then he's been replacing him since the Kree/Skrull War, since Bolt "magically" turned up with the rest in Illuminati #1 without much explanation. But it's also possible he's only been replacing him at some different periods of time. If so, it becomes very interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Black Skrolt who ensured the real Bolt was locked up in Silent War- after all, the Inhumans aren't exactly on friendly terms with Earth so no one on Earth would know he was locked up... Oh, and bb, as far as I know this issue is post-WWH so God alone knows what was a Skrull and what wasn't- bit that's part of the attraction of the story, because we know as much as the charers. Oh, and you asked why he'd reveal himself- I forgot to mention one important point, Black Skrolt had the powers of *ALL* of the Illuminati, and Skrullossus had the powers of several of the X-Men. So basically, it was 3 of the Illuminati vs a Skrull who had all their powers PLUS the insane power level of Black Bolt, and could take them via surprise. His odds were good and if he succeeded, Earth heroes were totally screwed. At that point, he just wanted to prevent news of the Skruls from getting out. Honestly and I know you're going to take this as a slam against marvel but none of what you're telling me here makes a lick of sense to me. Some skrull just slips in and out of Black Bolt's identity? For decades? How come none of these impostors were exposed when the Skrulls lost their shape shifting powers? The readers have no idea of when or where these things have happened? Bad storytelling. The kind that killed "Alias" the television show and the kind that has hurt "Lost". You don't have to spell everything out, but saying Marvel is likely doing it to give the reader the same sense of chaos is doubtful as this is for the most part, a retcon story. These events didn't happen for these reasons and didn't foreshadow these stories--someone decided after the fact and now they're leaving the holes that arise unplugged? You don't have to agree, but that sounds like poor storytelling on their part. And now Skrulls seem to be able to harness so much power with ease that they can treat these two infiltrators like cannon fodder--allowing them to go off on their own and initiate a battle? I mean I guess Skrullbolt and Skullosus aren't valuable-they can let them go into battle without superior numbers (because I've seen Iron Man and Sub Mariner take on several foes at once and Dr. Strange's abilities are highly unpredictable, despite the power of the skrulls there was no guarantee of victory) so there's probably a lot more. How did the Skrulls lose the Kree Skrull War? How did they let Galactus eat their homeworld? With the level of power and technology they're exhibiting these days, they likely have Silver Surfer power level soldiers according to this. The Super Skrull always seemed to be an aberration- a singular entity who needed power broadcast to him to sustain his abilities en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-Skrullbut if they've overcome that, they're fairly unstoppable. I mean what planet can stand against Galactus herald level power and the ability to perfectly infiltrate? Just sounds like they've taken an already overwrought premise and pushed it into unnecessary power levels. I may have thought it silly as they've yet to ever exhibit these traits before, but at least the idea of insidious skrulls infiltrating was a valid one. Superpowerful skrulls who slip in and out of identities with ease and are never noticed and are now completely imperceptible by magic, science, telepathy, heightened senses and divination and are also now strong enough to take on three of the most powerful heroes ever on Earth without hesitation seems like overkill to me. And yes, I have not read it yet. However if I read the synposis for a new movie that had these plotlines I would not go see it as I would think it stretches any real concept of suspense and compelling story. Other than deus ex machina, how do the heroes win this battle?
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 9, 2007 6:36:46 GMT -5
I haven't read this one yet, but the spoilers sound intriguing. I will have a look at it online, and decide whether to buy it or not.
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Post by goldenfist on Nov 9, 2007 9:45:00 GMT -5
You should get it Shiryu it's a great issue.
Kl'rt the Super-Skrull with the Fantastic Four powers will be in Secret Invasion while there will be another Super-Skrull who will have the powers of the Fantastic Four, Kl'rt will not be in Annihila tion Conquest but I did see a Skrull with Ronan.
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Nov 9, 2007 9:45:28 GMT -5
Remember, we are at the beginning of this story revealing the Skrull infiltration. We are not going to get all the answers in the lead in stories. We're going to have to wait and read the story. Just because we don't see how they are going to make it work, doesn't mean they don't have a way to do it. Let them tell the story, then decide if it works, don't pan it before it even launches.
Honestly, I enjoyed to book and when BB spoke, it was kind of a double take moment. It makes sense that, out of that group, it would be him since he has had the least exposure over the years. And since he doesn't talk, less chance of a giveaway. It also makes it easier to believe that the Hulk was able to take him down since it wasn't the full power Black Bolt we would have expected. It is also a nice bit of irony, the Skrulls using a Kree creation to infiltrate the Earth.
I'm still not totally sold that Strange has not somehow been replaced. His performance lately has not exactly cemented him in my mind as Sorcerer Supreme. Maybe the conversation he had with Danny in the issue before last explains some of that. It could be foreshadowing, or it could be a ruse.
I am kind of suprised that Sentry does not get more airplay as a possible Skrull. His whole "origin" suggests something odd. Of course this may just be my own little hope since I really don't care for the character.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 9, 2007 10:09:56 GMT -5
Honestly and I know you're going to take this as a slam against marvel but none of what you're telling me here makes a lick of sense to me. No, I won't. Upon calming down and getting over my initial irritation at your name and some of your posts, I accept you often raise a lot of good points and tend to be at least somewhat justified in your complaints. For the record, I apologize for my treatment of you before. Who says it was decades? Who says they've been here since then? No no no, you misunderstand me. I'm not saying "Well, we know nothing, the characters know nothing, that's that." This is all going to be explained in the New Avengers tie-ins to Secret Invasion. Personally, I'm fine waiting until then so we can live in mystery like the characters- I'd be pretty irritated if they were never going to tell us. Well, two Skrulls who have the powers of Thor and the entire X-Men team are going to be pretty d**n formidable opponents for anyone. Now add in that they can counter Doc Strange's magic and Prof X's mindwarps, that Reed's frankly not *that* useful in the field and that Iron Man's sensors can't move quick enough to detect them and if he hadn't channeled 4 nuclear power stations, the Illuminati would be dead. That's exactly the question Marvel want you to be asking. The idea seems to be that they have now perfected the Super Skrull experiment for others, and if that's the case, surely Earth is screwed? How can the heroes possibly win? Hmm... sounds like story fodder to me. Surely the greatest heroism is triumphing over seemingly impossible odds? How many times have we seen our heroes placed in situations from which they could *never* escape... only for them to somehow triumph anyway? In theory, Spider-Man should be Spider-paste every time he fights Venom, and let's face it, the only things that kees Magneto from obliterating anything and everyone in his path are constant plot devices. After all, realistically how do the X-Men EVER beat a guy who can control every aspect of the EM spectrum? They should be totally doomed. Yet somehow, they always win.
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 9, 2007 10:33:57 GMT -5
Shouldn't we wait for the official explanation before debating it? At the moment it could be anything from the effect of the Cosmic Cube to a new Super Skrull program, magic and who knows what more.
I only hope that Black Bolt isn't retconned into having been a Skrull for years, but only for a short time.
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 9, 2007 21:12:27 GMT -5
I'm going to just answer in general as opposed to taking several people and quoting. Just seems easier. I did read Illuminati and I thought it was terrible. Terrible. I liked several marvel books this week- She Hulk, Astonishing X-Men, and FF, so I can enjoy a Marvel product. This was not it. First, I'm questioning how long the Skrulls replaced various heroes. I'm not sure it's decades, but I'm left wondering. Did they replace Black Bolt right after Kree Skrull? Even in marvel time that would be about eight to ten years. Second the attack in the issue was poorly thought out. first skrull bolt attacked solo against the smartest men in the world, Namor, Strange and Xavier. That's not good odds. Reed Richards did stop the Super Skrull, remember- that big brain is good for something. SPOILERS
For some reason you can't snap a skrull's neck but you can kill them by impaling them. Okay- i would think that the same reason you can't kill them by severing some sort of spinal cortex would help them survive a blunt trauma, seeing as how they control their bodies fairly completely and impaling would just separate tissue which they control and could then just seemingly repair as opposed to say blasting them and destroying a huge chunk of bodily tissue which they couldn't repair (and where does their mass go when they shrink down to flea size anyway...). And then a couple more power skrulls pop up and they too attack quite recklessly because here's the thing: a) either there are hundreds, thousands, millions of these soldiers, in which case they should attacked with fifty or a hundred at once to insure victory and least number of casualties or. b) there are only a few in which case they should've used their powers more discreetly. They're undetectable- a Thor level Skrull replaces Franklin and kills the FF in their sleep. Honestly I'm just applying the same logic that Marvel is imbuing this story with. It's this ultra sinister complex detailed plan the Skrulls now have. Their attacks should make more sense. And my point, which seems to be getting obscured is that Marvel has taken events that already happened and is now inserting Skrull invasion into it, so someone should have a very detailed tree of events and it should be a bible that Marvel follows and sticks to and uses for every facet of the story. An explanation like (for example) "the Skrull only replaced Black Bolt at certain times" is just terrible. It shows me that someone probably looked at the logistics and said "screw it, let's just do it..." and then wrote a story around a somewhat flimsy idea. I just don't think you can base a huge crossover over a very shaky concept where you don't even know for sure when and where these things supposedly happened. Here, for example is one huge problem I have: The Skrulls lost their powers and it was long after the war and certainly fits into the possible timeline of this long range plan. Granted, some kept their powers, but few, a handful by accounts. If all your guns suddenly disappeared would you fight a war? Probably not. The Skrulls main weapon disappeared. Why would they continue an invasion even if a few managed to keep their shapeshifting abilities? and why didn't all those skrulls suddenly appear (and this where stuff like "oh they were specially undetectable Skrulls" just kills me. Bad writers do that sort of stuff. They're written into a corner and then anything can happen). Next if this plan goes back say a year or two Marvel time, why didn't the Skrulls object to Earth being made into Ego and a prison planet? If you think you have a right to the Earth and want it, wouldn't Ego and or billions of sentient creatures, many of whom are powerful and more advanced than Earthers be a major problem? Does the skrull power even escape cosmic awareness? The power to understand the very fabric of the universe, understanding the universe on a minute cosmic level a power that allowed Mar-Vell to understand the universe beyond all doubt and they can fool it? I ask because so far there are at least three beings who should have picked up on their existence. Wendell Vaughn Quasar, Genis-Vell, and Mar-Vell, original recipe. Yet they seem to have been duped as well. If you can fool the very essence of the universe, then I just don't see how even galactus can stop you. By this margin, Eternity doesn't know who the skrulls are if they can fool cosmic awareness right? I'm harping because this why the concept bothers me so. It's just so...so unsubtle. The writing is just so silly-- Marvel needs an impossible and unseeable invasion and thus it is, internal logic be damned. Not to mention all Druids, seers and assorted mystics not seeing it. Understand Dr. Strange's sorcery and fooling it is one thing. There are plenty of gods who don't use the same rules as Doc does. Not all magic comes from the same place or obeys the same laws. And yes forces have come before in the MU that seemed overwhelming, unstoppable, undeniable, but that was then, this is now. Marvel doesn't pull rabbits out of the hat anymore. They've as much said so. This story can't end with an Ultimate Nullifier, it can't end with shattering the cosmic cube (and did someone mention a cosmic cube in Skrull hands and if so why didn't they just wish away all the heroes- whole lot less wear and tear on the skrull army), it can't end with a mad God unable to control his emotions, or someone throwing a switch and turning off the Skrull illusion powers. This is a war, a global war with an unknowable impossibly powerful foe who can fool any detection and duplicate any ability . It has to have casualties in the millions, and a resolution that seems in proportion to the ominous and virtually unstoppable buildup, otherwise what's the point? You don't do Civil war without the big conclusion that all heroes must register because marvel can't go back to status quo. the stories don't do that anymore. It's why you can't shoot the Hulk into space and have him understand that he was such a great menace it was necessary-he has to come back angry and destroy New York. The difference with this foe and say Doom or Magneto, is despite their overwhelming force, these villains are characters first and world dominators second. Magneto wants to be a visionary and he sees himself as the hero of the story. He does not unleash lethal force because if he does the story's over before it began. Heck I could think of several characters whom are nigh impossible to stop should they put their minds to it- Xavier (who once stopped an entire invading planetary armada with his telepathic powers) Vapor of the U-Foes- she can become any of a number of poisonous but undetectable gases, Hydro Man- how do you stop someone who can drown you in your sleep or dehydrate you instantly? And there's no place on this planet that doesn't have some water in it. he can go anywhere... In any case, there are plenty of unstoppable foes, but those stories would be bad because they wouldn't go more than a page or two. So what most writers do is they tell a character driven story. An invading army is not a character driven story. Galactus coming to Earth and having his herald turn on him is. The Galactus trilogy is a eight person play (FF, Surfer, Galactus, Alicia and Watcher). You could stage it on Broadway. Despite its scope, it's a small intimate story. Potentially thousands of Thor level Skrulls who can pop up anywhere and have no real character save that they want Earth is a boring, impossible villain to me (and again if they don't have a lot of these soldiers, wasting four super powered skrulls in a four on four battle was REALLY stupid strategy-earth has thousands of super heroes. you need overwhelming force to conquer an indigenous people) I'm even bored talking about this idea at this point. Love the series if you want. Buy ten copies and give them to friends as holiday gifts. But don't tell me I should give it a chance. I find the concept and current execution so shoddy that I can't go past it. I've read children's books to my four year old niece that have better internal logic to my taste.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 10, 2007 6:11:02 GMT -5
First, I'm questioning how long the Skrulls replaced various heroes. I'm not sure it's decades, but I'm left wondering. Did they replace Black Bolt right after Kree Skrull? Even in marvel time that would be about eight to ten years. As has already been pointed out, you can hardly penalise this book for that when it's deliberately keeping it a mystery and we *know* exactly when we're getting the answer. Again, it was spur of the moment, with the elements of surprise, with far MORE power than the Super Skrull, virtually immune to all of their powers and with the voice of Black Bolt. Those are good odds right there. I would imagine- and this is just a theory, but I'd *imagine* they need to be prepared for it. The Skrull clearly saw Namor was about to snap his neck and thus ensured that his neck could not be broken. Had he been looking at the spike, he could have done the same thing but he was facing the other way. As far as I know, there has never been anything to establish that Skrulls' powers work automatically, they have always been triggered by conscious thought. In this particular case, secrecy is the prime factor. If the Illuminati are allowed to leave the meeting, then the secret is out and they *know* there are Skrulls, and more importantly, they *know* Black Bolt was one. I would assume the two Skrulls who showed up were the two closest ones, quite possibly working as a pair, and again, this is all spur of the moment. The SKrulls never planned this, they get word that Black Skrolt has been discovered and immediately set out to aid their comrade and silence the Illuminati. It's quite simple. But that's what I tried to tell you in my last post- MARVEL know when things happened and they're going to tell us. In fact, I can tell you *exactly* when they're going to tell us, from New Avengers 40 or so to about 45, they will tell us exactly who is a Skrull and when they became a Skrull and when they were a Skrull. You're complaining as though they NEVER planned to tell us. Except who says the invasion HAD begun then? We don't know when it began, we don't know why, we don't know how many they had until when. And guess what, making them undetectable isn't "bad writing", it's making them more of a threat and it's a fairly logical threat in evolving Skrulls into a bigger menace to the Marvel Universe, *especially( if there's a logical reason for it which due to Illuminati #1 there is. It's been made very clear that the Skrulls who want Earth were not in charge of the Skrull Empire until after Annihilation. Mar-Vell is going to be a major part of Secret Invasion and hasn't been seen since Civil War so I guess we'll find out. See above for Mar-Vell, but Quasar and Genis are dead. Who says they care? There have been thousands of times the MU Gods haven't reacted to threats to the world. I think you suggesting they should care this time when they haven't before is what is ridiculous. I notice you kind of ignored Doctor Doom there. He's smarter than pretty much anyone short of Reed, but he's more inventive than Reed. In theory, Doom should have conquered the world a thousand times. But really, all I have to say is this; you are applyin gross and monstrous double standard because this is Marvel today and this is Bendis, and those other things are not. No doubt if this exact Skrull plan had been done in the 80s, or Hell even perhaps by a different writer, you'd have FAR less of a problem with it. Earth has defied GALACTUS, and THANOS. By that sense, the Skrulls are really child's play. Thank you for using your amazing powers of foresight to tell us Secret Invasion will not be character driven. You have saved me a great deal of money with your crystal ball. Because in your world, NO-ONE ever reacts on the spur of the moment and when told your giant secret plan is on the verge of outing, you should not panic, but should calmly sit back and sip tea?
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 10, 2007 8:41:00 GMT -5
But Marvel keeps saying "this could have been going on for years now" so introducing several years of questions as to "could this have been happening at this point and why it doesn't make sense" is not only valid, but exactly what the story is leading the reader to. Next one God who would be concerned is Gaea who loves her earth so much that she bound the Defenders AGAINST THEIR WILL to defend it against all threats. I'm sure I could find more, so there are powers who would be concerned. And sorry if I don't have the confidence in Marvel that you do. Most of the events such as House of M and Civil War have been horribly plotted and explained to my satisfaction and the ridiculous premise of this one so far leaves me little confidence for a turnaround. For example despite your protest I can't see any logical tactical reason for the attack in Illuminati 5. These heroes have pulled off miracles before, the Skrulls have seen it in action-there's no reason for them to doubt it. You're going to sneak and infiltrate and then announce yourself. It just seems stupid. Also Quasar and Genis Vell haven't been dead terribly long in Marvel time, so did the invasion happen a week ago? My problem is Marvel keeps saying "how long have they been here?" And I'm thinking it doesn't make any sense that they've been here more than six months, so let's not try that tack... I'm sorry that marvel's not making sense to me and its troubling to me and their track record has been pretty abysmal to me in regards to the events. This just isn't a very good read to me. Astonishing X-Men 23? A great story that made sense and is continuing a mini epic storyline that rocks and is full of drama and pathos and comedy. Illuminati 5? A badly plotted and overall ridiculous book with a poor premise. And I addressed the Thanos and galactus thing. It wasn't to your satisfaction but to mine so I'm happy with my coverage of that point.
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Post by goldenfist on Nov 11, 2007 11:19:56 GMT -5
Bendis said he was planing the Secret Invasion story for five years so now he is finally getting it into the Marvel Universe.
Illuminati #5 is a great book, The whole Illuminati can't trust each other.
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 14, 2007 16:20:02 GMT -5
y'know, I just re-read several early issues of the kree skrull war and try as I might I couldn't find as many plotholes as I do in current bendis work.Were there some contrivances? oh yeah. no doubt. but did it tell a story that cover all the basic groundwork, that explained motivation, that established the skrulls as a threat simply because they could cause havoc in short bursts such as disbanding the Avengers and highlighted the love story between wanda and vision? yes. I think making the skrulls almost all powerful and undetectable shows a huge lack of imagination. there are so many more crafty ways to make them a company wide threat and this isn't it.
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Post by woodside on Nov 14, 2007 18:56:10 GMT -5
. . . but did it tell a story that cover all the basic groundwork, Secret War, Break-Out, Secrets & Lies, Illuminati. As stated in a Bendis interview during Philly-Con over the summer, the Skrulls lost their homeworld and see taking our beautiful world as their own. Plus, they friggin' hate us, dude. Why not smite their enemies and take their world as their own? Why, that sounds almost sneaky. It hasn't been mentioned in the comics yet, but gotta keep something a mystery. Even the Kree-Skrull War had some mysteries. Such as taking control of a ruthless band of assassins by posing as it's leader and attempting a take-over of the Japanese underground and creating alliances with Hydra and AIM. And taking the place of the leader of a civilization of people with super-powers. Also, perhaps inflitrating a budding group of super-baddies led by an inexperienced newbie. Avengers Disassembled, New Avengers Disassembled/Civil War Just like this one is highlighting the relationship between Luke and Jess. How? I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, but how?
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 14, 2007 20:52:50 GMT -5
. . . but did it tell a story that cover all the basic groundwork, Secret War, Break-Out, Secrets & Lies, Illuminati. As stated in a Bendis interview during Philly-Con over the summer, the Skrulls lost their homeworld and see taking our beautiful world as their own. Plus, they friggin' hate us, dude. Why not smite their enemies and take their world as their own? Why, that sounds almost sneaky. It hasn't been mentioned in the comics yet, but gotta keep something a mystery. Even the Kree-Skrull War had some mysteries. Such as taking control of a ruthless band of assassins by posing as it's leader and attempting a take-over of the Japanese underground and creating alliances with Hydra and AIM. And taking the place of the leader of a civilization of people with super-powers. Also, perhaps inflitrating a budding group of super-baddies led by an inexperienced newbie. Avengers Disassembled, New Avengers Disassembled/Civil War Just like this one is highlighting the relationship between Luke and Jess. How? I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, but how? Sigh, perhaps I should have said succinctly and clearly... I think several years of unclear storylines as prelude may be a bit much, myself. Comparing Luke and jessica to Vizh and Wanda? Well I just don't even see it myself. I've already said my piece on how ridiculous the skrull empire suddenly needing and wanting a planet they've tried to destroy a hundred times, as well as this new religious bent, so I can't get into it again. Other than making the skrulls super powerful, a much more interesting plot would have been: Civil War. Small pockets of skrulls assume various identities shortly and confuse and blur the lines between super heroes and super villains to the point where no one trusts each other and the public distrusts everyone in a cape and mask. It would've made more sense than the several experienced members of the new warriors (namorita,speedball, thrasher) suddenly becoming idiots who don't care about civilians and you still would've had hero against hero and a reason for registration. Of course if you do that now, it smacks of a rip off and justly so. But even more than that, let's take a page from Nebulon's book and have the Skrulls come to earth as saviors, not as themselves but instead assuming the form of adonis like beings here to lead us to nirvana (Grant Morrison did this plot to an extent with JLA,and the White martians but he didn't have them as perfect humans, rather super humans). Appealing to pure human vanity, they offer perfection and all we've gotta do is drink their kool aid. The heroes find out they're skrulls, but unless you can expose them, an attack would make the heroes look like they were trying to destroy paradise. the skrulls could win without a single fight. And even then people would still harbor some mistrust that heroes didn't want to give up their place as top of the ladder on earth and purposefully stopped. I came up with this in about thirty seconds. Were I to spend more time on it, I think I could fashion a reasonably compelling plot based on the idea that the skrulls can launch a wholly insidious plan using naught but guile and human foibles as their weapon. The skrulls could also replace human elected leaders (much easier to replace- like Craddock in kree skrull) and outlaw super hero activity around the world. Then stir up old enmities and bring the world to the brink of war-nuclear extinction in a week. Given that the skrulls have hundreds of worlds in their empire I imagine they could wait a few years for the radiation to level off. and they win without a single battle fought. that's pretty insidious to me.
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Post by woodside on Nov 14, 2007 21:05:22 GMT -5
Actually I rather like your idea there. It's rather interesting. Kudos!
As far as most other things, I think it would be best to agree to disagree. I certainly respect your opinion, though I clearly don't agree with it.
However, I'm interested in debating the Luke/Jess parallel with Wanda/Vision. I actually find their relationship far more realistic in terms of how they interact over Wanda/Vision. Looking past the fact that these two aren't traditional Avengers, I have to say that their relationship is one of my favorite parts of this title.
As far as it having a role in "Secret Invasion," I find it to be a good emotional back-bone. It's not about Luke and Jess getting together; it's about the trust between the two of them. It's about being open with one another. Not to bash Vision/Wanda, but I find this more stirring than "Even a robot can cry."
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that I'm getting married next year and when that occurs, I'll be in that same kind of position as Luke and Jess. Still young in the marriage, still trying to figure out all the nooks and crannies of the new stage of the relationship. Add to it a sense of paranoia, a sense of "who do you trust?" and it makes for some great interaction.
As a whole, their relationship is the most human and most interesting characterization in New Avengers and I'm very much looking to see how it withstands "Secret Invasion."
Oh, and on an unrelated note, I was about re-read all of the "World War Hulk" mini-series before diving into the final issue. It just occured to me that perhaps the replacement of Black Bolt may have happened when Bolt was recovering from his injuries.
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 14, 2007 21:19:45 GMT -5
well thanks for your open mindedness. As far as Luke and Jess, well it's far more realistic, but Vision and Wanda was far more sensational, far more fantastic, far more impossible and for me that's what makes the relationship more interesting. I mean the Vision didn't even know what he was. was he a machine mimicking human action, a computer program who acts like he's in love because he's been input a certain set of stimuli? I guess if I want to read a really good relationship that's realistic with mildly fantastic elements I might read michael Chabon, whereas if I want to read the kind of relationship between two incredibly interesting protagonists the kind I only see in comics, I read the saga of Witch and Vision. But you're always entitled to your own enjoyment.
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Post by woodside on Nov 14, 2007 22:10:37 GMT -5
well thanks for your open mindedness. As far as Luke and Jess, well it's far more realistic, but Vision and Wanda was far more sensational, far more fantastic, far more impossible and for me that's what makes the relationship more interesting. I mean the Vision didn't even know what he was. was he a machine mimicking human action, a computer program who acts like he's in love because he's been input a certain set of stimuli? I guess if I want to read a really good relationship that's realistic with mildly fantastic elements I might read michael Chabon, whereas if I want to read the kind of relationship between two incredibly interesting protagonists the kind I only see in comics, I read the saga of Witch and Vision. But you're always entitled to your own enjoyment. What's interesting is that I'm the same way with Cyclops of the X-Men. I relate to him more than I do just about any other ficitonal character and part of it is that fantastic element to him. Robots and mutant witches makes for good romance, don't get me wrong. And though my early Avengers knowledge is limited, I have to say that I find Vision's development very nicely handled. Honestly, I wish Vision would be restored and would find Wanda, er, un-crazy her, and they'd re-kindle their relationship. And Michael Chabon is the man. "Wonder Boys" and "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Klay" are both two of my favorite books. "Summerland" was good too. I'd love to see him tackle the Fantastic Four.
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Post by spiderwasp on Nov 14, 2007 22:10:57 GMT -5
I'm a little late weighing in on this book, but I just read it and then the posts on it. I'm a little confused by a few points I've read here. 1. There were a number of comments about the liklihood of the infiltration going back to the Kree/Skrull War, I suppose because that's when the Illuminati formed but I've seen no evidence that, just because they are showing up in Illuminati, that's where it started. I know the Illuminati are part of who they blame for what happened to their world but that was later (I think) and it seems unlikely to me that they formulated a plan and implemented their plan the next day. As has been pointed out, we don't know how long the Skrulls have been infiltrating. Of course speculation would go back amongst the characters to the very beginnings of the MU, but that doesn't mean that's when it actually started. It is supposed to be a mystery. 2. I noticed a couple of posts referring to other stories that have come out recently that have had weak storytelling such as Disassembled and Civil War. This has become a kneejerk reaction among many. If a new story doesn't strike the right chord instantly, evidence that it is bad comes in the form of "Well, look at what they did to the Avengers, Ironman, Cap, etc." I agree there were major flaws in logic and continuity in both those stories, but this is a new storyline and deserves to be judged on its own merit. If we enter into every new story with the assumption that it will just be "More of the same," we might as well just give up. 3. There have been several references to the period of time when the Skrulls lost their powers that have inplied that this is a matter of the writers not paying attention. To me, that period is a good clue that the invasion took place some time after that. If it turns out that the writers end up telling me that it was before and then just ignore that it ever happened, then I'll be ready to criticize the lack of continuity.
I'm certainly no fan of BMB but I actually find that Illuminati is better than either of his Avenger titles. The stories are not as stretched out, the characters have more individualized personalities, and the stories, thus far, actually do seem to fit into the timeline of possibility. I do question Reed keeping the team secret, even from Sue, and Cap being left out of the team initially but I didn't say it was flawless, just better. (That bar isn't that high when it comes to hurtling.) My basic point is that, although I am ready, willing, and able to criticize BMB, I prefer to read what he's doing before saying its bad and this story still has a long way to go.
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Post by woodside on Nov 14, 2007 22:27:20 GMT -5
Good post, spiderwasp!
By the by, when did the Skrull's lose their powers? I've never even heard of this! They had their powers during "Annihilation" and during the "Shattering"/"The Twelve" storyline back a few years ago.
Personally, I feel as though the Skrull infiltration occured slowly and not too long ago. After Doom was cast into Hell, one of the sleeper cells here on Earth was activated, replacing Doom with Lucia Von Bardas and getting Skrulls into positions in the US and UN.
Hmmm . . . I sense a new thread a brewin' . . .
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Post by bendisbites on Nov 14, 2007 23:00:44 GMT -5
I'm a little late weighing in on this book, but I just read it and then the posts on it. I'm a little confused by a few points I've read here. 1. There were a number of comments about the liklihood of the infiltration going back to the Kree/Skrull War, I suppose because that's when the Illuminati formed but I've seen no evidence that, just because they are showing up in Illuminati, that's where it started. I know the Illuminati are part of who they blame for what happened to their world but that was later (I think) and it seems unlikely to me that they formulated a plan and implemented their plan the next day. As has been pointed out, we don't know how long the Skrulls have been infiltrating. Of course speculation would go back amongst the characters to the very beginnings of the MU, but that doesn't mean that's when it actually started. It is supposed to be a mystery. 2. I noticed a couple of posts referring to other stories that have come out recently that have had weak storytelling such as Disassembled and Civil War. This has become a kneejerk reaction among many. If a new story doesn't strike the right chord instantly, evidence that it is bad comes in the form of "Well, look at what they did to the Avengers, Ironman, Cap, etc." I agree there were major flaws in logic and continuity in both those stories, but this is a new storyline and deserves to be judged on its own merit. If we enter into every new story with the assumption that it will just be "More of the same," we might as well just give up. 3. There have been several references to the period of time when the Skrulls lost their powers that have inplied that this is a matter of the writers not paying attention. To me, that period is a good clue that the invasion took place some time after that. If it turns out that the writers end up telling me that it was before and then just ignore that it ever happened, then I'll be ready to criticize the lack of continuity. I'm certainly no fan of BMB but I actually find that Illuminati is better than either of his Avenger titles. The stories are not as stretched out, the characters have more individualized personalities, and the stories, thus far, actually do seem to fit into the timeline of possibility. I do question Reed keeping the team secret, even from Sue, and Cap being left out of the team initially but I didn't say it was flawless, just better. (That bar isn't that high when it comes to hurtling.) My basic point is that, although I am ready, willing, and able to criticize BMB, I prefer to read what he's doing before saying its bad and this story still has a long way to go. Hookay, since several of these points seem to appear in my posts, I am going to see if i can present my thinking to your satisfaction and clear up your confusion. First off, I'm not the one making the leap about the timeline. marvel is making it. They keep saying "how long has this been going on??" da-da-da-dum and creating the illusion this has potentially been going on for years. It may only be weeks, but they are creating the illusion of years. And to me that's just poor storytelling--you're ignoring years of continuity to make a dramatic point. That'd be like your favorite TV show ignoring a character being dead for years because bringing him back suddenly would be an interesting twist. It would be an interesting twist but it doesn't make sense. I think I'm allowed to say "this doesn't make sense to say that the invasion has been anything more than a few months--please stop insulting my long term memory by saying anything other than that." Quasar's entire initial run was about finding alien menaces on earth. Ego, his mentor, would've noticed a skrull encroachment on Earth. Genis Vell who can't be dead more than a few months knew everything the Skrulls were doing. he challenged the kree/ skrull/badoon/sh'iar alliance that came together to stop him when he went mad. If they had such powerful soldiers, surely they would've brought them to play when he challenged the very existence of the empire, right? Doesn't that just make sense? I get annoyed when marvel ignores their own rich history and treats a long time reader like myself who has followed their stories like my investment in these characters and knowing their history was pointless. Isn't this in fact why the Ultimate Universe was created? So that stories didn't have to be constrained by what has come before? I understand now why Civil war had to happen in 616 because it supposedly played off long standing sentiment and relationships. And those very points make secret invasion a far weaker concept-one that would've worked far better in the Ultimate universe. And when a story's initial concept doesn't make sense, i certainly think I'm allowed to dislike the story, especially when I've been reading a multitude of books that have led up to it, including several issues of Illuminati that seemed structurally unsound. I don't get why it's so hard for people to get that I can read new and mighty avengers and illuminati which all lead up to secret invasion and not like any of those stories, and thus not think it's entirely too great a leap to think that Invasion, the story that is just a continuation of these stories will not be any more enjoyable to me. In fact, given human understanding of things, I should actually expect that since i didn't enjoy a),b), and c) that d) won't win me over, either. So you're entitled to your optimism, but I think my pessimism is just as justifiable. So does that clarify the position of any of my posts?
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