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Post by thew40 on Mar 19, 2007 7:38:18 GMT -5
Perhaps Dr. Strange didn't check Cap out to see if it's a deception because he was worried the Psi-Ops would detect him?
~W~
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 19, 2007 9:03:36 GMT -5
Perhaps Dr. Strange didn't check Cap out to see if it's a deception because he was worried the Psi-Ops would detect him? ~W~ First, he did appear in astral form, proving he either was not worried or at least didn't consider it. Dr. Strange probably does not need to worry about SHIELD's psy-ops. He's the sorceror supreme. Second, he did check -- but that checkout was written by Bendis as being fooled by an LMD or whatever was on the table, whereas Wolverine's nose was not. That's ridiculous. RSC
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Post by balok on Mar 19, 2007 14:43:36 GMT -5
Perhaps Dr. Strange didn't check Cap out to see if it's a deception because he was worried the Psi-Ops would detect him? ~W~ It's a valid point, but... as RSC points out, none of the people who work for SHIELD are talented enough to threaten a mystic of Dr. Strange's caliber. I suspect it would be dangerous for them to even attempt to read his mind, because of what they might see there - memories of things whose hideous geometries threaten the sanity of those not prepared for them... Additionally, even if Psi-Ops detected Strange, there's little they could do. He could easily fend off any attack they might launch, probably without even counterattacking. Here are a few of the ways he could have pierced the deception: - The Eye of Agamotto (1) - exposes reality. Its glow would reveal the truth.
- The Eye of Agamotto (2) - permits Strange to probe the minds of individuals. Considering the power of Agamotto, it's reasonable to assume that only the most powerful telepaths could block it. And if the non-psionics around Cap's "prison" were protected, that alone should raise questions and foster caution.
- The Eye of Agamotto (3) - permits Strange to travel dimensionally. He could enter Cap's prison from a nearby dimension, and there's little SHIELD could do to prevent his leaving, when he realizes he has tripped a trap. The Shields of the Seraphim, a spell he routinely uses, would protect him from anything SHIELD might do in the few seconds it would take him to teleport or dimensionport away.
- The Orb of Agamotto - among its many scrying powers is the ability to examine the past. A simple "rewind" and Dr. Strange sees and hears Carol and others setting their trap.
- Astral inspection - generally only other mystics or fairly powerful psionics can even detect Strange in astral form. Even if the Psi-Ops agents "saw" him and knew what they were looking at, the chance of them being able to interfere with his inspection runs near zero.
- Life detection - an LMD would not show up under a life detection spell. Strange has used such spells to find people in the past.
- The Images of Ikonn - another use of Ikonn's power: when Ms. Marvel springs the trap, the "New Avengers" fade away - they were never really there. A similar approach would be to create a distraction to draw most SHIELD defenders away from Cap's prison, permitting easy inspection of it.
- Sleep spell - incapacitate the SHIELD agents and others, go look, and leave when the trap is revealed.
- Truth detection - cast this spell on Spider-Woman and have her contact Carol again. When she does, and Carol confirms Cap's presence, the lie would stand revealed.
Okay, so that's only nine off the top of my head. I'm willing to bet someone even more familiar with the character could come up with a few more. But here's why none of that matters: at least this first time, Spider-Woman trusted Carol, and Dr. Strange elected to trust Spider-Woman. The best betrayals work when the betrayed never sees it coming. So this trap works once. But following it, the sorts of precautions I've laid out would make it basically impossible for SHIELD to do much about Dr. Strange. The worst that could happen is them forcing him to leave if they bring enough power to bear. They have no way of containing his power and no way of overpowering him without bringing in one of his enemies - and they're all evil men, and the ones actually capable of helping are going to want things SHIELD may not be prepared to offer them. Worse, the smart people at SHIELD know that they'd better leave Strange alone. If they DID manage to incapacitate him, that would simply open the earth to the kinds of problems the entire Initiative would struggle to contain: Dormammu, Baron Mordo, Nightmare, Umar, the Dweller in Darkness, Shuma-Gorath, D'Spayre, Kulan-Gath, the list goes on...
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 19, 2007 16:43:59 GMT -5
This is the problem with using certain characters, like Dr. Strange - they are so powerful, the rest of the team becomes unnecessary. The writer is then usually forced in one of two directions: come up with menaces so dangerous even the ultra-powerful hero can not handle them, or 'dumb down' the hero. In this issue we got the latter. As many of you have pointed out, there's no way Strange should be deceived by a double or LMD, or whatever it is. But Bendis wants to use Dr. Strange, so he has to water him down. I'm just wondering how much weaker he's going to make him.
Here's a thought: what if, at the time Strange sent his astral form to the holding facility, Steve Rogers really was there, still alive? Perhaps he was replaced shortly after that by a decoy. Although again, how would Stark or SHIELD have the foresight to do something like this? That still doesn't work. So I guess we're back to a sub-par Dr. Strange.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Mar 19, 2007 16:58:14 GMT -5
As with any writer, the competence of a Bendis character can be no greater than his writer allows. Interpret that as you will.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 19, 2007 18:05:40 GMT -5
We're honestly going to make an enormous fuss over this? The simple answer to Doc Strange: Plot Device. It is a plot device that he cannot tell it's the real Cap. Simple as that. Take it or leave it. It doesn't greatly diminish the story to acknowledge that occasionally, in comics based around super heroes, people's powers act in ways we don't foresee.
There is no better defence, but that's a pretty giant defence. If we're really going to say "Doctor Strange should have known that was Cap. If he didn't, then the character is mutilated and the writer is absolutely terrtible, the comic beyond redemption" then honestly, 95% of hero comics just got ruled out.
For example, in the classic "The Only Good Alien..." (Or was it Kree?) which I will have my thoughts on up in a day or two, there are several ridiculous plot devices. For example, the fact that out of the ENTIRE negative zone, an absolutely ENORMOUS realm, Annihilus happened to be JUST behind Rick Jones, enough to be pulled into the world? Wow, the odds against that must be STAGGERING. Clearly, since we weren't given a reason for him to be that close, the writer is a hack and shows the rubbish standards Marvel held people to back in those sorry, dark days! And in that same story, we're told Captain Marvel has hidden a weapon in Florida, conveniently where he lands? Wow, talk about CONVENIENT. I mean, there may be NO reason for him to have one there, but there you go! Evidently, this comic should be stricken from the avengers record.
My point is, it's a plot device. They are a staple of hero comics, without them most comics could never be written. It doesn't reflect poorly on the writer, it doesn't diminish the comic, the only way it should get to you is if you're on the lookout for it or if you analyse it in detail- and if you analyse any silver age story in similar detail, it completely falls apart. The most it should really register as is a minor annoyance, but you're blowing it into a giatn thing... because you don't like the writer.
[/rant]
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 19, 2007 18:15:39 GMT -5
Understanding that it is a plot device,.. it just leaves me wondering where exactly Strange fits into this picture. Maybe he's attempting to guide events toward a reconcilliation?
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Post by balok on Mar 19, 2007 18:25:00 GMT -5
True, it's a plot device. But plot devices come in various levels of believable. This one was very unbelievable. Good writers don't use unbelievable plot devices very often, because reliance on them is a sign of poor plotting skills.
Does it destroy the comic? No. Does it mutilate the character? No. Does it indict the writer as bad? No. But it chips away at the comic, the character, and it does comment negatively about the quality of Bendis' writing. It's one more thing added to the rather large collection of reasons why I don't like Bendis' writing on New Avengers.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 19, 2007 18:26:58 GMT -5
So to summarise, Balok, Doc Strange not thourghlly checking out a body in astral form is MUCH more unbelievable than Mar-Vell happening to store a weapon in Florida or Annihilus just passing by Rick Jones at that exact moment in the Negative Zone?
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Post by balok on Mar 19, 2007 19:04:21 GMT -5
Since I barely remember the two incidents you cite, I can't really comment on the relative unbelievability of it. I can only say what I said: that I found nine reasons why this particular plot point was poorly crafted, without really working hard.
It's certainly possible those are examples of bad writing; I'd have to read them to be sure. I have never said that Bendis is the only purveyor of substandard work, only that he is currently among the most visible exemplars of mediocrity at the moment.
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Post by uberwolf on Mar 19, 2007 19:07:11 GMT -5
Bendis should have known better than to include Dr.Strange in his new team. A character that powerful especially compared to the levels of his team mates is headache waiting to happen. Especially in these day of internet fan boy extreme-ism.
But for those enjoy the ultra-realism in todays comics.... Dr. Strange is an elite professional who should not have made so simple mistake. His continued existence, not to mention the fate of our dimension, depends on him using his abilities to their utmost. This is a little bit different then being in the right place at the right time. On the other hand, as soon as it was announced Strange was on the team everyone WAS shouting plot device. Anyones guess just how many of those there are going to be...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 19, 2007 19:08:01 GMT -5
I think with comics though that we have to allow for some of the non-believable twists.
Although I do agree with the opinion that too many at one time can be a bit far-fetched.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 28, 2007 17:25:36 GMT -5
Tana mentoined in another thread, there is what looks like a cap clone being grown in a tank in earlier issues of another book. So what about this, the cap on the table is a clone. Think about it. Dr. Strange might not be able to tell the difference because with Cap being dead and the clone not being alive the clone would appear to be identical to Cap, so Strange wouldn't be tipped off. Notice how close Wolverine had to get to tell the difference. I think that may be the plot twist. Either way I'm sure we'll find out next issue because they ALWAYS tie up the loose threads in New Avengers
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 28, 2007 18:24:27 GMT -5
Yeah, it just takes Bendis 10 years o so to do it, but he's given us so much so, who cares...? Don't be a hater, nutcase65! Haters are put through walls, you know...?
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 28, 2007 19:03:44 GMT -5
Yeah, it just takes Bendis 10 years o so to do it, but he's given us so much so, who cares...? Don't be a hater, nutcase65! Haters are put through walls, you know...? ? I wasn't trying to hate. I think that may be how they work this one out. I actually don't dislike the New Avengers that much. There is room for improvement but that's true of me too.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 28, 2007 19:39:37 GMT -5
It was a weak attempt at humor on my part, nutcase65... Sorry...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 28, 2007 20:36:05 GMT -5
It's ok, if anybody understands weak attempts at humor, it is I
I thought that you that that I thought that you thoug,.... wait where am I.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Mar 29, 2007 21:20:45 GMT -5
She works directly with Tony in the pages of Mighty Avengers #1. I'd have to guess this was a conscious act of betrayal, to serve the (in her mind) greater good. While I certainly agree, I guess I am just looking to give her benefit of the doubt, until its shown, or otherwise stated, that she was fully complicit. Her actions and words to Tony in other books seem to indicate her disagreement with Tony in regards to how he's handling enforcement of the SHRA. I mean if Tony loses yet another right-hand man (my apologies to Ms. Danvers)... look out! In the CW: The Innitiative it seems that the innitial lie was from MS. Marvel and Stark capitalized on it with his plan. I'd also like to see where the Dr. Strange goof is explained, and I believe it will since the ambush hasn't been fully played out yet. Cap actually having been alive and there, but then moved is a decent theory. The other (and lamer) possibility would be that Strange simple didn't exert enough power at the time to see through the trick (He didn't use the eye right? To just his astral form it would have been an effective trick) that doesn't devalue his powers, just how easily fooled he was by the trick. Another guess might be (And this one would be useful) that SHIELD has obtained some mysterious artifact that gives them a certain level of protection from Strange. This might give a decent long term reason for the new and the mighty to stay appart. I'm actually interested in where this story is going because, hell say what you want about the lineup, but this has gotta be like the perfect lineup for a renegade type team. Wasn't that pleased with the art though
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Post by balok on Mar 30, 2007 22:57:59 GMT -5
The other (and lamer) possibility would be that Strange simple didn't exert enough power at the time to see through the trick (He didn't use the eye right? To just his astral form it would have been an effective trick) that doesn't devalue his powers, just how easily fooled he was by the trick. Put simply, he shouldn't have been... Another guess might be (And this one would be useful) that SHIELD has obtained some mysterious artifact that gives them a certain level of protection from Strange. This might give a decent long term reason for the new and the mighty to stay appart. ... unless something like this were the case. The problem, of course, is that the Sorcerer Supreme is likely aware of any artifact that powerful, if it isn't already under his control. Now, some outsider could have brought such a thing into the world, but doing so is certainly some part of a larger plan that bodes ill for the world. If SHIELD is cooperating with an enemy of Doctor Strange, they are doing so at the peril of the rest of the world. Almost without exception, Docs enemies are very evil people.
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Post by bendiszombie on Apr 4, 2007 7:46:48 GMT -5
A positive review form Comic Book Resources: THE NEW AVENGERS #28 was a great issue. It really cemented in my mind that this is the premiere team title of the Marvel Universe. It's got everything I want in a Marvel comic, including lots of characters, quips, and adventure. The team has traveled over to Japan and squabbles amongst itself the entire time. But interspersed with those scenes are the ones that show us more on how the team came together and got to Japan in the first place. Brian Bendis shows a strong awareness of the characters of the Marvel Universe, mixing and matching them in a way that feels familiar, yet new. It's an interesting line to walk, but I think he's doing it deftly. And it's a new front runner on my list of most anticipated titles from month to month now. I used to wait for the hardcovers with this series. Not anymore.
Francis Yu's artwork doesn't hurt, either. It's shot now directly from the pencils, and I think that gives it more life than it would had they used an inker. Dave McCaig -- who colored Yu on the SUPERMAN: BIRTHRIGHT book - comes along here, too, creating a bright look that interacts with the pencil work in an enjoyable way. www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=6
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 4, 2007 8:13:03 GMT -5
Ssssh!!! This site doesn't do "positive" when it comes to Bendis
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 4, 2007 9:24:43 GMT -5
Hey everyone, I read Avengers 28, and thought I would through in my few cents.
1) as long as I pretend this is a Marvel Knights and not an Avengers title, it is not a bad story, the charaters are actually written well, aside from Dr. Strange, where we once again see that Bendis simple can't write powerful charaters, without powering them down.
2) More ninjas, what is Bendis's need to put in ninjas, although, at least this team is better designed for that, except for Dr. strange, who should have stoped that fight in a under 5 seconds.
3) The art is still horrible. Yu's art is just god awful to me, I feel like I am looking at a teenagers who never had any formal training. The only stuff that was worse that I have seen recently was that horrible New Warriors limited series.
4) All in all not a horrible story, but kinda just more of the same. Ninja's, and the myseter of who is Ronin. Got to say MA is a better.
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Post by balok on Apr 4, 2007 10:59:49 GMT -5
Ssssh!!! This site doesn't do "positive" when it comes to Bendis I gave Might Avengers #1 an okay rating. But his work on New Avengers past the first arc has been anywhere from mediocre to where we are now, downright awful. What's worse is that his apparent influence at Marvel is entirely out of proportion to his barely adequate skills.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 4, 2007 11:04:23 GMT -5
Hey everyone, I read Avengers 28, and thought I would through in my few cents. 1) as long as I pretend this is a Marvel Knights and not an Avengers title, it is not a bad story, the charaters are actually written well, aside from Dr. Strange, where we once again see that Bendis simple can't write powerful charaters, without powering them down. I swear to God, that is EXACTLY what I said after 27! As long as you pretend it's not Avengers, it's okay! Great minds think alike. Agreed. On both points. Agreed, except I found this art worse. ...Agreed. I've uttered that word on this forum more times today than in any single day before! And even Balok said "...past the first arc", which removes the comment I was about to make that "Breakout" was okay enough before the rest descended into mediocrity. Still Balok, Bendis has a lot of influence but nowhere near as much as many on this site seem to believe. (For example, as far as I can tell 'House of M' is the only big idea concoted and executed by him which really went anywhere. Well, besides USM but it's self contained. Though I fully expect him to be writing the 2007 'big summer crossover'.)
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 4, 2007 13:26:35 GMT -5
IF you read a lot of the Interviews regarding CW, Bendis was a huge mastermind behind it. Contrubiting in a very large way to the ideas that Miller wrote. Aside from Joe Q, Bendis has the most power at Marvel at this time, in my opinion, and may even hold more, in the power behind the thrown sort of way. You can't look anywhere in the MU and not see Bendis's stamp on it in some way.
Also, I have said many times, that if in they hand taken all the charaters from NA in the beginning, except for Cap and Iron Man, and gave Bendis a book called Marvel Knight (or whatever), and then let someone like Peter David or Joe Casey write the Avengers book. Then everyone could have been happy.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 4, 2007 13:40:50 GMT -5
I'd argue Mark Millar has much more power than Bendis. I mean, let's take a look:
Bendis disassembled the Avengers... based on an idea by Mark Millar! Bendis writes the New Avengers... based on an idea by Mark Millar! Bendis writes the premiere Ultimate title... except when Ultimates comes out, and that's written by... Mark Millar! Bendis was overruled several times in what he wanted for HoM. Civil War redefined the Marvel Universe about ten times more than HoM at the least and was written by... Mark Millar! let's take a look at individual lines:
Avengers:
The idea to kill Cap, dominating that side of things, was moved to it's current time- and POSSIBLY brought into existence at all... because of a crossover concieved and written by Mark Millar!
Iron Man? Dominated by Director of SHIELD.... an idea come up with by Mark Millar!
Two Avengers teams? Only made possible because of a crossover by... Mark Millar!
The personae on those teams? In Mighty Avengers' case determined largely by their position in the war, a war written by.... Mark Millar!
Avengers: The Initiative- TOTALLY birthed from an idea by... Mark Millar!
Spider-Man: He's back in black. Why? Because his Aunt May was shot. Why? Because his identity is known. Why? Civil War, written by... Mark Millar!
Fantastic Four: Currently disassembled with a new team. Why disassembled? Because of a concept by.... Mark Millar!
Other: Punisher is on the road to being Cap, an idea aproposed and strongly pushed towards by... Mark Millar!
Noticing many similarities? You should be. Mark Millar did all these, and guess what- he did them in the best way, through a giant company-wide crossover. The crossover dictaited the future of the line, which is as it should be for any good crossover. But y'know what- I'll bet you no-one thought that Mark Wolvman had way more power than whoever was EiC at DC during Crisis on Infinite Earths.
The reality is simple; because you don't like Bendis, you tend to ascribe to him WAY more power than he has. Bendis' idea for civil war was shot down. The stories he wanted to be in the main book were instead told in his New Avengers . (So before you criticise CW next time, think how much worse it could have been.)
So I would say not only does Bendis NOT control Marvel... he's not even the most powerful writer there.
BK, I'm not seeing the "huge ideas" he contributed. What happened to Cap, what happened to Iron Man- Millar's ideas. Thor Clone- Millar's idea. (Sadly). Spidey unmasking? Tom Brevoort's idea. The biggest thing Bendis did was say at the start "SHIELD vs the super heroes!" which caused Millar to say "Naa... super heroes vs the super heroes!"
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Post by bendiszombie on Apr 4, 2007 13:43:52 GMT -5
Though I fully expect him to be writing the 2007 'big summer crossover'.) Isn't that "World War Hulk"? IF you read a lot of the Interviews regarding CW, Bendis was a huge mastermind behind it. Contrubiting in a very large way to the ideas that Miller wrote. Right. Bendis... and Millar, JMS, Whedon, Loeb, etc. "Civil War" was developed was at a Marvel creator summit with all the "big shot" writers present. Also, I have said many times, that if in they hand taken all the charaters from NA in the beginning, except for Cap and Iron Man, and gave Bendis a book called Marvel Knight (or whatever), and then let someone like Peter David or Joe Casey write the Avengers book. Then everyone could have been happy. Except for Marvel, which would have lost one of it's biggest selling books of the last few years. And of course the Avengers franchise "New Avengers" started goes out the window too.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 4, 2007 13:45:05 GMT -5
I meant 2008, apologies.
Although, there is big word about Millar in 2008....
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 4, 2007 13:45:59 GMT -5
Where did you here that Mark Millar concieved all this. Seriously, I need to know where you are getting this information, because I have read article and interview after article and interview, and saw very little of this.
I also wanted to say, I don't dislike bendis, in fact I think he is a great writer of Crime nior type stories.
I just don't like his writing of the Avengers.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 4, 2007 13:47:53 GMT -5
Well I've met the man and frequent Millarworld, but what do you mean specifically? There's a LOT of stuff in civil war.
PS: I forgot, he also came up with the new Thunderbolts concept.
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