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Post by Shiryu on Mar 15, 2007 9:25:21 GMT -5
Anyone read it yet ? Comments ?
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 15, 2007 9:52:24 GMT -5
I am somewhat proud to say this was the first issue NOT on my pull list. When I saw it on the shelf yesterday I didn't even pick it up to leaf through. Just don't care any more...
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 15, 2007 10:51:07 GMT -5
I looked at the previews at popshock, and the art is still horrible. The story is blah, just more of the Marvel Knight's Avengers. Not good, not bad, just there.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 15, 2007 11:41:20 GMT -5
Part of me wants to pick this book up, since it is the decidedly anti-reg Avengers... but man, I just can't pull the trigger. The art being one thing, and Bendis being the other.
I have recently picked up CA#25, Mighty Avengers#1, CW: The Confession, and CW: The Initiative.
After reading Confession and Initiative, I am much more comfortable with not picking up New Avengers at this point. Bendis is not all bad to me, just mostly bad, and his bad spots certainly outweigh any of the good spots, IMHO. I am going to read the 2 new books again, and give my reviews on them in the appropriate threads soon.
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Post by balok on Mar 15, 2007 12:18:48 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd like to pick up a book about those opposing the SHRA, but here are my drawbacks: 1) How long can a book about lawbreakers last? Sooner or later they're going to have to either register, disband, or the SHRA will get tossed out. Only the last (and least likely) holds any appeal for me, and I don't see it happening anytime soon. 2) The art does nothing for me. 3) I want Quesada and Bendis fired, and that won't happen if I buy their products. It still might never happen, but I can't complain and support them at the same time. 4) Bendis' commentary on Dr. Strange, I think at Newsarama, shows me that here's *another* Marvel character he won't write properly. His solution to how you fit the Sorcerer Supreme onto a team is, basically, to depower him until you can write about him. 5) I don't like Bendis' writing generally up to three issues ago, and I see no reason to expect that I ever will.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 16, 2007 12:31:25 GMT -5
In a voice of not-hatred, I found it okay. Better than 27. As I say, if I pretend in my mind it's not labelled "Avengers", it becomes MUCH easier to like. My biggest criticism besides god-awful art?
You remember when Bendis said why these guys are Avengers? And he said Luke Cage says it: Because Cap SAYS we're Avengers?
...Yeeah, something got lost in translation. Now Spidey makes the very valid point that they can call themselves the Avengers if they get Cap, and Luke Cage says they are the Avengers. So apparantly if Luke Cage says so, it must be true. This guy who has been on the team two years (or less marvel-time) can dictaite who is an Avenger, whereas if all three active FOUNDING Avengers plus 90% of the historic active-beyond-2-years-ago Avengers roster (If not 100%, more or less) pick a team, it's the fake avengers!
That aside, I'll proceed with the issue....
Doom's Deconstruction: Open with New Avengers assembling in Tokyo. Why they're still in Tokyo I do not know. They establish that Echo has been drugged and they need to go somewhere secret, so they choose the house of the Silver Samurai. Logan and Samurai argue, nice to see recent history referenced strongly. Basically they are hiding here because it's the last place The Hand will look. Samurai asks how they even go out of New York.
We then cut to Harlem, yesterday. Cage stops a robbery in a store and some policemen try to arrest him but he gets away- I think he steals a hover vehicle or something, the art makes it very unclear- and gets to Doc Strange's house, disguised as a soon-to-be-Starbucks. There, he meets the rest of the Avengers and a returned-from-Canada-apparantly Jessica Jones. Still no explanation as to how this team get together but basically there's some argument, some jokes, some banter, then Spider-Woman arrives. She tells them Ms Marvel told her Cap was alive (Last week's Initiative special) and in the Raft. The others are speptical but Cap says they should go.
Doc Strange checks out the Raft and sees the unconscious form of Cap. He gives the others the go-ahead and they bust into the Raft. They reach Cap's body only to discover, it's not Cap- it's a trap. A metallic voice apologies for the dirty ruse, and they find themselves ambushed by the Mighty Avengers and a couple of dozen SHIELD agents who declare them under arrest.
Cut to present day. Silver Samurai firstly explains about The Hand's new dominance in Japan, then attacks Logan suddenly. He's brought down by Spider-Woman, Spider-Man, Ronin and Cage. Spidey's spider sense then goes crazy and Elektra and the Hand descend upon the group...
The Word of Doom: An above-average issue. I hate anything that concerns The Hand or ninjas, but luckily most of this issue is concerned with the past storyline which is much more interesting. There's not much to say; this group are okay but to be honest I think Bendis squandered the potential of civil war- Ronin, Echo, Doc Strange, Wolverine- these characters could have been replaced (especially all but Iron Fist) with actual anti-reg characters who were Avengers. Hercules, say- or Falcon (Who is mentioned fleetingly), and ACTUAL AVENGERS. As it is, Bendis instead assembles what I suspectg to be his Dream Team which he wanted from the start. Still, ignoring that these guys think they're the Avengers, it's a motley band and a fun issue.
The art is still horrible. I think the team was well chosen with 6 of them having their eyes covered, because without a mask, most people- ESPECIALLY Cage, look like freaky zombies. (No pupils). Yu also has a unique way of drawing Doc Strange which makes it look like the good doctor has had a very rough night out and is suffering an enormous groggy hangover. Still, not enough to bring down a solid enough issue.
This Issue Shalt Recieve... Seven And A Half Gold Dooms Out Of Ten.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 16, 2007 13:08:37 GMT -5
Doesn't the Eye of Agomatto (sp?) not help Strange see through any deception or lie?
Could he not detect that it was not Steve Rogers on the Raft? Can he not locate Steve Rogers in the afterlife, or wherever Marvel heroes go when they die, to see if he is truly dead? Could he not cast a spell to find out if he is still on Earth somewhere?
I mean I like Dr. Strange, though I have never closely followed him, but I just can't see him as a regular on-going member of the Avengers. Perhaps he will only be with them a short while, or through an arc or two, so we will just have to wait see what they have in store, but already it seems BMB is not putting a lot of thought into his characterizations. I guess he did have Strange at least check out the Raft first, but there seems to be a lot of other questions (about a million of them) that make you scratch your head.
Is it ever alluded that Carol actually thought that Cap was alive, and that she was just used, or is pretty obvious that she was complicit with the trap?
Thanks for the skinny on the issue, Doom. It was much appreciated!
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Post by balok on Mar 16, 2007 14:59:32 GMT -5
Doesn't the Eye of Agomatto (sp?) not help Strange see through any deception or lie? When the writer remembers to use it, yes. Could he not detect that it was not Steve Rogers on the Raft? In any of a dozen ways. Can he not locate Steve Rogers in the afterlife, or wherever Marvel heroes go when they die, to see if he is truly dead? Could he not cast a spell to find out if he is still on Earth somewhere? It's somewhat questionable whether Strange can see into the afterlife. One story, long ago, implied that he could when he chose to expend the effort. Other stories suggest not. But the Eye alone should have unveiled this deception. Even if the Initiative counts spellcasters among its number, absolutely, positively all of them are outclassed by Strange. None could cast a glamour his powers could not pierce. That's why he's the freakin' Sorcerer Supreme. Such a trap might have worked, and even makes logical sense, without Strange on the team. Is it ever alluded that Carol actually thought that Cap was alive, and that she was just used, or is pretty obvious that she was complicit with the trap? She works directly with Tony in the pages of Mighty Avengers #1. I'd have to guess this was a conscious act of betrayal, to serve the (in her mind) greater good.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 16, 2007 15:06:00 GMT -5
Is it ever alluded that Carol actually thought that Cap was alive, and that she was just used, or is pretty obvious that she was complicit with the trap? She works directly with Tony in the pages of Mighty Avengers #1. I'd have to guess this was a conscious act of betrayal, to serve the (in her mind) greater good. While I certainly agree, I guess I am just looking to give her benefit of the doubt, until its shown, or otherwise stated, that she was fully complicit. Her actions and words to Tony in other books seem to indicate her disagreement with Tony in regards to how he's handling enforcement of the SHRA. I mean if Tony loses yet another right-hand man (my apologies to Ms. Danvers)... look out!
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Post by bendiszombie on Mar 17, 2007 1:45:13 GMT -5
You remember when Bendis said why these guys are Avengers? And he said Luke Cage says it: Because Cap SAYS we're Avengers? ...Yeeah, something got lost in translation. Now Spidey makes the very valid point that they can call themselves the Avengers if they get Cap, and Luke Cage says they are the Avengers. So apparantly if Luke Cage says so, it must be true. This guy who has been on the team two years (or less marvel-time) can dictaite who is an Avenger, whereas if all three active FOUNDING Avengers plus 90% of the historic active-beyond-2-years-ago Avengers roster (If not 100%, more or less) pick a team, it's the fake avengers! OR... that Cage's crew is basically the remnants of Cap's "Secret Avengers", and if they were Avengers then so are the New New Avengers. But don't let me get in the way of the usual Bendis Bashing. Oh, and NA 26 was great.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 17, 2007 4:02:39 GMT -5
OR... that Cage's crew is basically the remnants of Cap's "Secret Avengers", and if they were Avengers then so are the New New Avengers. But don't let me get in the way of the usual Bendis Bashing. Well firstly, if you don't like Bendis bashing then really I'm one of the last people on this board you should be complaining abotu I'm sorry to say But beyond that, of eight members only four were actually IN the Secret Avengers, two of them only at the very end and one of them as a different super-hero altogether, so I don't think that really gives them much claim either...
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 17, 2007 11:09:22 GMT -5
Yep, with a user named bendiszombie now around, I will exile myself to the General and Classic portions of our little community. W or Doom, if you want to see me I'll be over there. My guess is it will only get more heated than usual around the NA and Civil War parts of the boards. Have at it, Balok, RSC, and Rex!!!
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 17, 2007 11:11:52 GMT -5
I believe it's clear that Carol was totally complicit in the trap. I think it was also referenced in Mighty #1. The art sucks. Which is great, as it will drain customers away if it keeps up. Yeah--Dr. Strange can't see through the deception of Steve's fake body, but Wolverine can. Right. From the very beginning, Bendis is proving his inability to write Strange.
RSC
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Post by imperiusrex on Mar 17, 2007 11:45:58 GMT -5
Yep, with a user named bendiszombie now around, I will exile myself to the General and Classic portions of our little community. W or Doom, if you want to see me I'll be over there. My guess is it will only get more heated than usual around the NA and Civil War parts of the boards. Have at it, Balok, RSC, and Rex!!! Naah. I'm pretty much bored with these little squabbles. It's too subjective and there's not much point in debating what occured in one panel or dialogue balloon ad infinitum. Either Joe Q and his current themes for Marvel will be gone one day soon or I just won't buy much. Regardless, there aren't many books I'm buying now so Bendiszombie and Doom and thew40 can have this corner of the world all to themselves...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Mar 17, 2007 12:10:18 GMT -5
You remember when Bendis said why these guys are Avengers? And he said Luke Cage says it: Because Cap SAYS we're Avengers? ...Yeeah, something got lost in translation. Now Spidey makes the very valid point that they can call themselves the Avengers if they get Cap, and Luke Cage says they are the Avengers. So apparantly if Luke Cage says so, it must be true. This guy who has been on the team two years (or less marvel-time) can dictaite who is an Avenger, whereas if all three active FOUNDING Avengers plus 90% of the historic active-beyond-2-years-ago Avengers roster (If not 100%, more or less) pick a team, it's the fake avengers! OR... that Cage's crew is basically the remnants of Cap's "Secret Avengers", and if they were Avengers then so are the New New Avengers. Well, there’s a big if. My impression is that the Secret Avengers were not an Avengers team. If I recall correctly, it was the press that dubbed the team thus. I think I later caught at least one reference to a Secret Avengers member (maybe even Cap himself?) referring to the group by that name, but I figured it’s just a name, not an indicator of actual continuity with the Avengers team. Similarly, the combination of name and Hawkeye and Mockingbird’s affiliation did not, in my mind, make the Great Lakes Avengers “real” Avengers. And don’t let any of us get in the way of your devouring people’s reasoning centers.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 17, 2007 16:58:53 GMT -5
I think the isue was OK. I have to agree with those who are asking why Strange couldn't tell it was a trap.
Maybe at the time Strange was checking things out, it really was Cap. In transition to somewhere else.
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Post by balok on Mar 17, 2007 19:22:34 GMT -5
Maybe at the time Strange was checking things out, it really was Cap. In transition to somewhere else. Why not? It makes as much sense as anything else that happens on that book these days. It's certainly true that Wolverine, having scented Cap, should be able to pierce this deception easily (although I can think of a number of people who might be able to fool him). No one should have fooled Dr. Strange. But Bendis is basically on record as saying essentially this, "Dr. Strange is too powerful to write as he has been depicted previously, so I'm going to hedge his powers with a lot of odd restrictions I've pulled out of my <posterior caudal duct> (just anticipating the censor)."
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Post by balok on Mar 17, 2007 19:25:27 GMT -5
Yep, with a user named bendiszombie now around, I will exile myself to the General and Classic portions of our little community... Have at it, Balok, RSC, and Rex!!! Noooooo... don't leave us!!!! (Actually, it's not all that enjoyable bashing Bendis. If it was actually difficult to do, it might be. But the man's own work extols his delusions of adequacy to the far edges of creation. He needs no help from me. At least, this is true of New Avengers. I liked his work on Alias, and for that reason I suspect he's the sort of writer who does okay when confined to the sorts of stories/characters he's good at: detective fiction/noir characters. Outside of that box, his skills fail him.)
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 17, 2007 19:51:23 GMT -5
But Bendis is basically on record as saying essentially this, "Dr. Strange is too powerful to write as he has been depicted previously, so I'm going to hedge his powers with a lot of odd restrictions I've pulled out of my <posterior caudal duct> (just anticipating the censor)." Well, perhaps it might be explained later in the arc or down the line in the issue... since Bendis is lauded for his storytelling over the longhaul. Though to me, I would think such a glaring question would have leaped to the minds of any of his teammates. Let's see if it is explained in the next issue or two.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 17, 2007 20:39:17 GMT -5
Wee, they still have to explain how they got clear of the trap. So maybe more of Strange's role will be revealed in yet another thread.
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 17, 2007 21:14:15 GMT -5
Yep, with a user named bendiszombie now around, I will exile myself to the General and Classic portions of our little community. W or Doom, if you want to see me I'll be over there. My guess is it will only get more heated than usual around the NA and Civil War parts of the boards. Have at it, Balok, RSC, and Rex!!! Where did I put that chainsaw? Oh yes... *yank* RRRNNN-NNN-NNN-NNN-NUH! RRRNNN-NNN-NNN-NUH! RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 18, 2007 13:54:22 GMT -5
See this is where I question you again, dlw.
Let me compare this situation to a political spectrum for a moment: You have the left wing and the right wing. But you also have the ultra-left and the ultra-right. Now left and right are normal positions in themselves, but each extreme is catastrophic, and as bad as the other (Nazism, Communism).
Here, we have the Bendis spectrum. We have liking Bendis and disliking Bendis, and then we have the Ultras- loving Bendis and hating Bendis.
So I guess my question is- you have absolutely no problem with frequenting it when it;s full with Ultra Bendis haters... but when a single Bendis zombie comes aboard, that's too muchj? Talk about personal prejudice, dlw! Why is someone who loves everything Bendis writes on principle ANY worse than someone who claims to despise it all for that same reason? Just because you sympathise with them more?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Mar 18, 2007 14:58:07 GMT -5
Yep, with a user named bendiszombie now around, I will exile myself to the General and Classic portions of our little community. See this is where I question you again, dlw. Are you speaking only apostrophically? Normal, like influenza, and possibly no healthier. I don’t presume to speak for DLW, but I think you have presumed too much when characterizing the board as “full with Ultra Bendis haters”. While there may be exceptions, I think a lot of the criticism has some reasoning behind it. Extremism tends to be antithetical to reason. While I don’t care yet to put much stock in our new user’s name, I can’t help noticing that a “zombie”, in every sense with which I am familiar, is an entity devoid of reason. And I would not blame Doug for preferring other company.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 18, 2007 16:32:40 GMT -5
and the fact that this board welcomes entities devoid of reason is why I feel good to be here.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 18, 2007 17:55:10 GMT -5
See this is where I question you again, dlw. Let me compare this situation to a political spectrum for a moment: You have the left wing and the right wing. But you also have the ultra-left and the ultra-right. Now left and right are normal positions in themselves, but each extreme is catastrophic, and as bad as the other (Nazism, Communism). Here, we have the Bendis spectrum. We have liking Bendis and disliking Bendis, and then we have the Ultras- loving Bendis and hating Bendis. So I guess my question is- you have absolutely no problem with frequenting it when it;s full with Ultra Bendis haters... but when a single Bendis zombie comes aboard, that's too muchj? Talk about personal prejudice, dlw! Why is someone who loves everything Bendis writes on principle ANY worse than someone who claims to despise it all for that same reason? Just because you sympathise with them more? Well first of all, as has been recommended in our "play-fair and be understood" rules, I included a smiley for levity. Had I put the mean-face smiley, or the sadistic murderer smiley (we don't have one, but sometimes it might come in handy -- emphasis on !!), then I think you'd have a gripe. And with perhaps 1-2 exceptions, I think all of us have said we've liked Bendis at one point or another in his career. He's had some very tolerable moments in NA, but overall the body of his work in that title, in my opinion, smells badly (trying to soften the impact of the word "stinks"...). So I was just thinking that if we get a screen name around here like "bendiszombie", we will probably have "less fun" arguments that could potentially turn nastier than usual. For the most part our users have taken very well to the notion that if you are going to complain, you must also give us a "why?". Not sure "zombies" would be capable of such behavior... We're still pals, Doom -- I like your dissenting opinions! Keeps the place from becoming too "white bread"! And see, I came back here anyway!!! ;D
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Post by bendiszombie on Mar 18, 2007 18:46:56 GMT -5
Woot. I sorta figured calling myself "BendisZombie" might raise a few hackles, but I didn't expect this much, or this fast. I hope I don't drive anyone away!
The name's just a joke anyway. I don't love everything Bendis writes (I don't care much for "Powers"), but I am a big fan of NA. And, yeah, sometimes I think you guys are kinda too hard on the guy.
Discussions here won't get too "heated", if I can help it.
Oh, and Doom? Sorry if I came on a little strong.
xoxo
BZ
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 18, 2007 18:56:09 GMT -5
The name's just a joke anyway. I don't love everything Bendis writes (I don't care much for "Powers"), but I am a big fan of NA. And, yeah, sometimes I think you guys are kinda too hard on the guy. Whew! I feel better already !
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Post by The Night Phantom on Mar 18, 2007 20:45:13 GMT -5
Woot. I sorta figured calling myself "BendisZombie" might raise a few hackles, but I didn't expect this much, or this fast. I hope I don't drive anyone away! The name's just a joke anyway. I don't love everything Bendis writes (I don't care much for "Powers"), but I am a big fan of NA. And, yeah, sometimes I think you guys are kinda too hard on the guy. Discussions here won't get too "heated", if I can help it. Oh, and Doom? Sorry if I came on a little strong. xoxo BZ It’s nice to see that the better part of my fellow graveyard-dweller’s humanity does yet remain. I trust everyone’s seen that we now also have a user called “Bendisbites”. The two will be easy to confuse: I, at least, have a tendency to view a “Bendiszombie” as Bendis become a zombie, in which condition he might very well bite. In any case, Zombie, here’s a karma point for your trouble.
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 18, 2007 22:39:39 GMT -5
And, yeah, sometimes I think you guys are kinda too hard on the guy. d**n, and I'd been going out of my way to cut him some slack after Civil War. RSC
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Post by uberwolf on Mar 18, 2007 22:55:14 GMT -5
d**n, and I'd been going out of my way to cut him some slack after Civil War. RSC Me too, he's just too easy to pick on. Even without his Neenja fetish.
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