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Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 16, 2007 23:00:56 GMT -5
I know exactly how you feel, dlw66... For a while there, I was experiencing a great deal of withdrawal symptoms...
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 16, 2007 23:19:20 GMT -5
Maybe we should start a new thread for those of us who are just now dropping the title. We could be a support group for each other. I know it's going to be tough for me to go to the comic book store when #28 comes out and not buy it. Maybe I'll lay #27 on the seat of my car so that I can thumb through it when I get back in. That should be enough to stop me from going back into the store and changing my mind.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 17, 2007 9:03:49 GMT -5
As some of us (notably boredyesterday) have talked about, we're trying to read or re-read the original run either through the books, Essentials, Masterworks, or the DVD-ROM. I started this "project" with #16, and am currently through #38. This was after I read FF #'s 80-175. So, basically I'm just following Quesada's advice --
If you don't like it, just go read the old stuff. Too bad that also happens to be the GOOD stuff!
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 17, 2007 9:28:12 GMT -5
As some of us (notably boredyesterday) have talked about, we're trying to read or re-read the original run either through the books, Essentials, Masterworks, or the DVD-ROM. I started this "project" with #16, and am currently through #38. This was after I read FF #'s 80-175. So, basically I'm just following Quesada's advice -- If you don't like it, just go read the old stuff. Too bad that also happens to be the GOOD stuff! I've been doing that for a while now. Over the past 2-3 years, I have bought and read 27 volumes of Essentials including all the Avengers. I am currently reading my 28th, Captain America vol. 3. I may be in acceptance that this is the GOOD stuff but it doesn't mean I don't WANT new stuff to be this good. Thank goodness for She-Hulk, FN Spider-man, FF, A-Next, EMH and Ms. Marvel to name a few titles that are keeping the enjoyment coming for me. Young Avengers would be on this list if it hadn't vanished. It's just sad to me that Avengers has always been my favorite and now it's not only off my list of what I really like, but it's not even on my list of what I'm willing to shell out my money for. The worst thing is knowing that as long as I'm taking Quesada's advice and buying Essentials, he probably doesn't even care that I'm dropping one title. Would the maker's of Almond Joy be upset if you suddenly decided you hated coconut (Which I do) and instead starting buying Three Muskateers. Not really. You're money's still going to them. I'm not criticizing anyone when I say this because I'm as guilty as can be. I'm just stating a fact. Now, if New Avengers sales drop significantly, then Joe might start telling us how much he cares about us long time readers.
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Post by balok on Feb 18, 2007 22:29:06 GMT -5
Dr. Strange is apparently on the team now. And yet (so I am told) there is a fight lasting several panels against members of the Hand.
Dr. Strange, by himself versus The Hand is a "what happens in the second panel?" situation. The Hand are good foes for the right mix of heroes, but the Avengers are not that mix.
I am not sorry I dropped this book. I am now actively lobbying my friend to do so. I think I'm almost there.
I never, ever thought I'd be discouraging someone from purchasing Avengers.
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Post by thew40 on Feb 18, 2007 23:01:38 GMT -5
The worst thing is knowing that as long as I'm taking Quesada's advice and buying Essentials, he probably doesn't even care that I'm dropping one title. Would the maker's of Almond Joy be upset if you suddenly decided you hated coconut (Which I do) and instead starting buying Three Muskateers. Not really. You're money's still going to them. I'm not criticizing anyone when I say this because I'm as guilty as can be. I'm just stating a fact. Now, if New Avengers sales drop significantly, then Joe might start telling us how much he cares about us long time readers. [sarcasm] Tell me . . . do you not like taking Joe Quesada's advice because you think he's pure evil and has nothing but evil to offer in any way? Obviously, he hates all readers! And he eats babies! Surely, he esspecially hates long-time readers. He all but says so! That's why he's done nothing but insult them! I mean . . . making change in comics! WHAT?!?!?! Everything should be just like how it always was! Roy Thomas should ALWAYS write Avengers! Sure his style is outdated, but comics shouldn't be like "Watchmen." We should still get lines like "And remember -- we've got this thermal underwear as well as our love to keep us warm!" (Avengers, issue # 90, page 11, panel 6) Readers love lines like that and surely, no one snickers when they read that! [/sarcasm] Listen . . . the fact of the matter is, you're blaming the EiC for telling you that you should read the Essentials. What's wrong with that? If he really hated long-term readers (which, really, he doesn't), then why would he be recommending that stuff at all? He'd be saying stuff like "New Avengers is the only good Avengers ever. All that old stuff is crap." I had other points regarding Quesada's obvious non-hate for long-time readers elsewhere (http://vplexico.proboards60.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=civilwar&thread=1160846699&page=8) Really, what your post sounded like was just an excuse to bash Quesada. ~W~
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Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 18, 2007 23:27:33 GMT -5
Point taken, thew40, but... in all honesty... do they snicker ANY less when they read Wolverine howling "Stop raping me...!!!" or when they see Cage kick Electra on her nether regions...? And if they don't... if they don't... even though, generally speaking, it should be "To each his/her own...", I can only say: "God help us all...!!!"
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Post by thew40 on Feb 18, 2007 23:30:46 GMT -5
Point taken, thew40, but... in all honesty... do they snicker ANY less when they read Wolverine howling "Stop raping me...!!!" or when they see Cage kick Electra on her nether regions...? And if they don't... if they don't... even though, generally speaking, it should be "To each his/her own...", I can only say: "God help us all...!!!" Even I, the sole "New Avengers" fan on this board, didn't care for Cage kicking Elektra in the lady place. And I swear, maybe I'm missing something, but when Wolverine say "stop raping me?" Oh, and I should amend that I am indeed a fan of Roy Thomas. His run on "X-Men" was better than Stan Lee's. And the "Kree/Skrull War" is one of the best Marvel stories ever. ~W~
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 19, 2007 9:46:48 GMT -5
I don't know, W. I'd take "slightly campy" over sex and gratuitous violence any day. You can't tell me Bendis' dialogue is half as good as the old Stan Lee Spidey or DD. And Busiek, Waid, Johns (not Avengers Johns!), etc. write a modern book with the style of the Silver and Bronze Ages -- works for them!!
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Post by thew40 on Feb 19, 2007 12:26:23 GMT -5
I don't know, W. I'd take "slightly campy" over sex and gratuitous violence any day. You can't tell me Bendis' dialogue is half as good as the old Stan Lee Spidey or DD. And Busiek, Waid, Johns (not Avengers Johns!), etc. write a modern book with the style of the Silver and Bronze Ages -- works for them!! Ah, but just because it works for them, doesn't mean it works for everyone. Style is a tricky thing. Bendis is more into repet -- er, repetiti -- uh, repeted dialogue and images, which (for the most part) works for him. Millar uses wider panels sizes and one-liners and that works for him. I didn't mean to say that older style is a worse style. It's just that not everyone can pull it off. I detail this more in the "Bring Back the Old School" thread. And it's difficult to compare dialogue from over 40 years ago to dialogue of today. A lot of things about comics in 1963 are different than they are today. Panels aren't as strict as they once were and less emphasis (generally) has been placed on narrative boxes (again, see the other thread). Bendis' dialogue fits more into the comics today than Stan Lee's does. But Bendis dialogue wouldn't have been able to work at all back in the 1960s. This is simply because (for better or for worse), stories have become decompressed. ~W~
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Post by Black Knight on Feb 19, 2007 12:43:08 GMT -5
I don't know, W. I'd take "slightly campy" over sex and gratuitous violence any day. You can't tell me Bendis' dialogue is half as good as the old Stan Lee Spidey or DD. And Busiek, Waid, Johns (not Avengers Johns!), etc. write a modern book with the style of the Silver and Bronze Ages -- works for them!! Ah, but just because it works for them, doesn't mean it works for everyone. Style is a tricky thing. Bendis is more into repet -- er, repetiti -- uh, repeted dialogue and images, which (for the most part) works for him. Millar uses wider panels sizes and one-liners and that works for him. ~W~ I think you just hit on the thing that I dislike the most about Bendis's writing style, and choose of images style. The repeated dialogue and images. It is such a waste of space, and perhaps lends to the feeling of decompresion. Also, I find myself thinking, why is he not moving the plot forward, rather then having charaters repeat themselves over and over, making whole scene drag on and on.
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Post by thew40 on Feb 19, 2007 15:05:10 GMT -5
Ah, but just because it works for them, doesn't mean it works for everyone. Style is a tricky thing. Bendis is more into repet -- er, repetiti -- uh, repeted dialogue and images, which (for the most part) works for him. Millar uses wider panels sizes and one-liners and that works for him. ~W~ I think you just hit on the thing that I dislike the most about Bendis's writing style, and choose of images style. The repeated dialogue and images. It is such a waste of space, and perhaps lends to the feeling of decompresion. Also, I find myself thinking, why is he not moving the plot forward, rather then having charaters repeat themselves over and over, making whole scene drag on and on. Well, that's all just a matter of personal taste. Sometimes, I feel that can be really effective. Other times, I'm with you on the "come on, get the show on the road." ~W~
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 19, 2007 17:53:30 GMT -5
The worst thing is knowing that as long as I'm taking Quesada's advice and buying Essentials, he probably doesn't even care that I'm dropping one title. Would the maker's of Almond Joy be upset if you suddenly decided you hated coconut (Which I do) and instead starting buying Three Muskateers. Not really. You're money's still going to them. I'm not criticizing anyone when I say this because I'm as guilty as can be. I'm just stating a fact. Now, if New Avengers sales drop significantly, then Joe might start telling us how much he cares about us long time readers. [sarcasm] Tell me . . . do you not like taking Joe Quesada's advice because you think he's pure evil and has nothing but evil to offer in any way? Obviously, he hates all readers! And he eats babies! Surely, he esspecially hates long-time readers. He all but says so! That's why he's done nothing but insult them! I mean . . . making change in comics! WHAT?!?!?! Everything should be just like how it always was! Roy Thomas should ALWAYS write Avengers! Sure his style is outdated, but comics shouldn't be like "Watchmen." We should still get lines like "And remember -- we've got this thermal underwear as well as our love to keep us warm!" (Avengers, issue # 90, page 11, panel 6) Readers love lines like that and surely, no one snickers when they read that! [/sarcasm] Listen . . . the fact of the matter is, you're blaming the EiC for telling you that you should read the Essentials. What's wrong with that? If he really hated long-term readers (which, really, he doesn't), then why would he be recommending that stuff at all? He'd be saying stuff like "New Avengers is the only good Avengers ever. All that old stuff is crap." I had other points regarding Quesada's obvious non-hate for long-time readers elsewhere (http://vplexico.proboards60.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=civilwar&thread=1160846699&page=8) Really, what your post sounded like was just an excuse to bash Quesada. ~W~ Wow, you are great at putting words into someone's mouth. I never said I didn't like buying Essentials because Quesada is evil or even implied that. What I said was that I hate knowing that Quesada really won't care if I stop reading NA as long as I'm still spending my money at Marvel. And are you really naive enough to think that he wouldn't recommend that we buy reprints of the old stuff unless he had our best interests at heart? He doesn't want to lose our money but he doesn't want to cater to what we, the longtime readers, often say we want. I have not ever nor will I ever say that he hates us or is evil. I have often said that he doesn't care about pleasing us as long as his newer readers are buying the books and that I think Bendis is a pretty bad writer who has done a lot of damage to the Avengers. However, in this particular post I didn't say any of that. I didn't even say anything that I believe Quesada would have any reason to disagree with. I'm going to break my points down one by one. Please tell me which one is controversial or untrue. 1. As long as I'm still spending my money at Marvel, it won't bother Quesada if I don't buy NA, as long as the sales remain high for that book. 2. Quesada wants my money to go to Marvel. 3. If enough readers drop NA, it will have an impact on Quesada. 4. I personally miss the excitement of looking forward to the next issue of Avengers (Though I have said I'm looking forward to MA and am trying to remain optimistic that it might fill that void) You need to relax your defenses a bit. Quesada is not evil but then neither are those of us who don't see eye to eye with him. Everytime there is a post that criticizes him or Bendis in any way, it sets you off on your tirades. Then you get insulted when people accuse you of essentially being a mindless follower who loves everything. How many of your posts have I read where you say "I never said I loved everything Bendis writes" and so forth. If you find it annoying for people to put words into your mouth, join the club.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 19, 2007 19:13:39 GMT -5
And I swear, maybe I'm missing something, but when Wolverine say "stop raping me?" I haven’t read the story myself, but I’ve been given to understand it was in The Pulse #9.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 6, 2007 9:03:53 GMT -5
Ok, I am scared, I finally got my copy of issue 27 and it was not horrible. It was not great either, there are still some major issues with the comic. 1) Luke Cage kicking electra. (that was just stupid) 2) Tired of Ronin and Echo... (my god she is not some super ninja) 3) The art "Not good, very bad" (one karma for anyone who can figger out where that small quote is from)
However, there was some action (even if it was ninjas) and aside from Dr. Strange that team makes sense fighting ninjas. So I guess I am on wait and see.
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Post by thew40 on Mar 9, 2007 21:38:48 GMT -5
Ok, I am scared, I finally got my copy of issue 27 and it was not horrible. It was not great either, there are still some major issues with the comic. 1) Luke Cage kicking electra. (that was just stupid) 2) Tired of Ronin and Echo... (my god she is not some super ninja) 3) The art "Not good, very bad" (one karma for anyone who can figger out where that small quote is from) However, there was some action (even if it was ninjas) and aside from Dr. Strange that team makes sense fighting ninjas. So I guess I am on wait and see. To be honest, I didn't much care for those same elements (save for Echo/Ronin, though it got old after a while). However, looking past them, I think this was a really enjoyable book. ~W~
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 10, 2007 17:47:15 GMT -5
I agree to an extent about the kick, I hate Echo but she wasn't too bad in this issue, my big thing was the atrocious art. I'm led to believe many like Yu. I'd prefer Liefeld myself.
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Post by thew40 on Mar 11, 2007 0:35:49 GMT -5
I agree to an extent about the kick, I hate Echo but she wasn't too bad in this issue, my big thing was the atrocious art. I'm led to believe many like Yu. I'd prefer Liefeld myself. Yu is really hit and miss. Sometimes, he can really pull off some amazing stuff. Others, it's just awful. A lot of it just depends on what book he's working and who is writing the script. He did a run on "Wolverine" about 7-8 years ago that was really great. Shortly afterwards, he worked "X-Men" and it was terrible. ~W~
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 12, 2007 7:47:18 GMT -5
Well, he is still in terrible mode with the NA comic.
Nobody wants to guess where my quote is from. Darn I even offered karma. LOL
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