Take a fresh look

[BigDuke]

I started reading comics again this past September after about 20 years away from the medium. Avengers and Captain America were always my favorites so I started there.

I found this and another website with all kinds of cool information about the Avengers, hints about what is happening, interesting discussions about all things Avengers. A lot of these discussions involved the varying degrees of dissatisfaction with the current writer, Mr Bendis.

I got caught up on my New Avengers and found myself a little unhappy about a few things in my old favorite. I participated in many discussions critiquing Mr Bendis, many of which were negative. I found myself becoming more and more negative about his writing, to the point that I thought about not buying Avengers anymore. Before doing that, I decided to take another stab and read all of NA over the weekend on a long car trip.

I have to say that after a new read, the writing is not as bad as my memory had been telling me it was. The Breakout arc was really quite good. The Sentry arc was okay, even though I am still not a fan of Sentry. The next two arcs were both pretty decent. The recent solos have been decent too, though again the Sentry episode left me flat. The Ballad of Clint and Wanda sucked. Oh well, they can't all be winners.

I am not saying that Mr Bendis is the best writer ever. But I think we (myself included) have spent so much time complaining that we as a group are spiraling in negative energy around our favorite mag and it doesn't have to be that way.

I would urge all of you who, like me, have been caught up in this negative cycle, to step back and read these issues again. Sure there are some flaws, but there have been flaws with most of the writers at some time. They have all had highs and lows.

I love talking Avengers here. I really enjoy the information, the comradarie, and the passion we all have for our favorite team. I am going to spend more time looking for the good, even if some things tick me off.

[redstatecap]

I have read them again. They suck. I'll consider buying the comic again once Mr. Bendis is no longer employed by Marvel.
Negative? Certainly. But if the product that elicits a negative response does not change -- and it has not changed -- then the negative response also will not change.
It's very clear-cut. Mr. Bendis has provided a poor product. Mr. Bendis has not listened to and acted on constructive criticism that would improve that product. Therefore I will not be contributing my money to support that product.

RSC

[daned]

I did it a while ago while actually trying to quantify my dissatisfaction with the book. These solo highlights didn't seem too special to me since I thought he'd been doing that anyway since about issue 3.

Even if we ignore the writing, the focus of the stories aren't the Avengers. And you need to do a lot more than put a "New" in front of it to excuse it.

[dlw66]

I appreciate the efforts of both W and BigDuke to encourage interest in this series -- I think we'd all like it to be good. However, I won't be re-reading it anytime soon. There is absolutely no interest level in going through it again. My family keeps very busy with school, school activities, my sons' athletic events -- if I am going to commit time to reading comics, it absolutely must be something that I have a very good chance for enjoyment. New Avengers, sadly enough, isn't going to give me that return on my investment of time.

[Tana Nile]

I posted in another topic that I had re-read all of New Avengers recently. I feel that the first 6 issue arc, dealing mainly with the prison breakout, was actually enjoyable. Then we got the Sentry storyline, which seemed to go on a bit long and felt more like it should have been in the Sentry mini-series than Avengers. After that, things really went downhill for me, with the Ronin story and then that overblown Michael/missing mutant energy story. The solo stories were OK, but I buy a team book to read about a team.

I guess that is my biggest peeve: NA has never felt like a real team book to me. Too often the Avengers seemed like secondary characters in their own book. I got the distinct feeling that Bendis was more interested in writing about SHIELD than the Avengers.

But I do agree with BigDuke that sometimes everyone gets so focused on Bendis that we lose sight of the reason we come here, to enjoy talking all things Avenger. I for one will try not to be so negative in the future.

[Bored Yesterday]

Yeah -- I'm all for positive attitudes, and if you can't say something nice, then talk about something else.

Man -- I LOVE Roy Thomas's run. Only about 30 more issues to go before I've read them all.

[dlw66]

Keep in mind that "realism" and "objectivity" are sometimes negative. While I think some of our postings throughout the NA run have been overtly negative, I don't think that the underlying theme and sense toward aggression is without merit.

[thew40]

It's funny you should start this thread as I just last night pulled out "Disassmebled," "New Avengers," and "House of M" to loan to a friend of mine.

Ultimately, I feel as though Marvel has been looking at the broader, full-scope Marvel Universe. When Quesda first came on board, most books were contained to themselves, not interacting much beyond occassional Spider-Man/whoever or Wolverine/whoever mini-series. I think this was done to kinda clear the board and allow for a sort of diminished inter-universal continunity so that the quality of the books could go up and allow for good jumping on points.

Morrison on X-Men, Johns on Avengers, Waid on Fantastic Four, Bendis on Daredevil, JMS on Spider-Man, Jones on Hulk, and Ennis on Punisher. While not all of them were successes and some of them suffered towards the end of their runs, Marvel seemed to concentrate more on the micro than the macro.

Then, somewhere around the time that Alias became The Pulse and Morrison's Planet X storyline, we saw the bigger MU come into play.

Since then, we've seen over-arching stories that have affected the Marvel Universe as a whole.

Disassembled is (in my mind) the kick-off of this new focus. Since then, we've had Secret War, New Avengers, House of M, Decimation, The Other, Planet Hulk, Annihilation, and, of course Civil War.

Going one step further, there are stories beyond this that tie into the greater MU. Wolverine's Enemy of the State & Agent of SHIELD stories; Fantastic Four's Unthinkable & Authortive Action; the Bendis and Brubaker runs on Daredevil; Wolverine Origins; Uncanny X-Men's The Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire; and Black Panther's The Bride of Black Panther. And really, that's just off the top of my head. Let's not forget events in Astonishing X-Men, Young Avengers and New X-Men that have tied into the MU as a whole.

Now, as we enter into 2007, the events as going to be trimmed down. The X-Men event is going to be only in the X-Books. The Spider-Man event is going to be only in the Spidey books. World War Hulk is going to be fairly limited in its range.

I think, as an overall, Disassembled and New Avengers work well within this line of thinking. The Marvel Universe as a whole is in a state of change. Change for change sake? Maybe. But bare in mind that change often times brings in cash and Marvel is a company.

Disassembled is probably the worst Bendis has had the offer. The story comes pretty much of nowhere, lacks subtlely and style. I'll grant that the art is pretty and I love Finch's details -- but even the art suffers at times. The dialogue is terrible, which is another Bendis surprise, as his dialogue is one of the things I love most about his writing.

I don't think it was supposed to be how it turned out, mind you. Ultimately, I believe that Disassembled was the victim of poor execution. I wish he had an arch or two before "Chaos" to better understand the characters, to build a stronger foundation, and to get "Chaos" a stronger feel.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen and we were given what we given.

Mind you, I liked the idea of Scarlet Witch losing control of her powers. I liked the idea of Magneto taking his daughter to Genosha and for Professor X to help her (I'll touch on this in a minute).

I knew Bendis was a better writer than what was seen in "Disassembled." So, I read "Avengers Finale" and liked it okay. It wasn't anything too amazing and I really didn't care for how all the old subplots were simply whisked under the table. But upon hearing news of "House of M," I decided to give "New Avengers" a shot.

I liked it. It wasn't the best from Bendis and it wasn't the best Avengers story, but I liked it. I unfortunately didn't have enough cash to pick it up on a monthly basis, so I bought the trade of "Breakout." Afterwards, when "House of M" was wrapping up, I picked up the backissues for the "Sentry" arc and had enough cash then to start picking up the series regularly.

"Breakout" is the best arc. I like the origin of the team, how they all came together during one crisis. I liked that it was a different team with all sorts of new characters that I had never seen interact before. I felt as though it was a sort of JLA for the Marvel Universe.

The SHIELD subplot was one I really enjoy.

Then came "Sentry," which is the weakest of "New Avengers" thus far. I didn't care for Paul Jenkins showing up or, really, the story as a whole. It was too complex and just a little too silly.

Now, let's move over to "House of M," because chronologically, that's where this story fits in the best (I think). I really, really enjoyed "House of M." It's a fantastic story and really feels like the next step in the Magneto/Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch subplot (if you don't believe me, read "Fatal Attractions," "Magneto War," "Magneto Rex," "Magneto: Dark Seduction," and "Eve of Destruction," then dive right into "Disassembled" and House of M" - it fits together quite nicely).

While I too feel it moves far too slow, I think this was a very good X-Men story. An X-Men story, mind you, as it deals more with the X-Men mythos than it does the Avengers. The X-Men dominated this story, with the Avengers pretty much playing second fiddle.

"Secrets and Lies" was next, which I promptly enjoyed. It added depth to the corruption within SHIELD subplot, with the new implications that Hydra and the Hand were being corrupted as well.

And, yes, I liked the ninjas.

"The Collective" was good because the Avengers actually fought something other than the Hand and Mutates. I was disappointed with outcome (with it being Xorn), but I enjoyed seeing the New Avengers do something that old-school Avengers style.

"New Avengers Diassmebled" has been touch and go, but has been good for the most part, I think. The Iron Man and Sentry issues were the weakest ones of the arc, with the best being Captain America and Luke Cage.

Now, there are things about "New Avengers" that I don't care for. I wish there was more time for the characters to interact. I wish Wolverine was involved in the "Secrets and Lies" story as he has a lot of history with Clan Yoshinda and the Hand.

But there's nothing I can do about that, so I'm just along for the ride and enjoying what there is to enjoy -- which is a lot, really.

I've made this point before, but I really believe that the stories as a whole are greater than the sum of their parts. The all-SHIELD issue (# 17, I believe) was not something I really cared for as an individual issue. But when read with the rest of the arc, it was pretty good and made for a good set-up.

Same thing with really any of the stories. On their own, they're weaker, but as a whole, they work.

I'm looking forward to "New Avengers" and "Mighty Avengers."

I have a really good feeling that "New Avengers" will be a better book because of its cast. Cage, Spider-Woman, and Spider-Man are three characters that Bendis is good at writing. Iron Fist means probably more ninja action. Dr. Strange is one of those characters that I feel Bendis can bring some energy to - he was really well portrayed in "House of M." Ronin and Echo are the only characters I'm uncertain of. And then there's Wolverine, who, uh, is Wolverine.

I honestly feel that the new "New Avengers" has more potential than the old "New Avengers." I think if he writes "New Avengers" like he did his early run on "Daredevil" and "Mighty Avengers" like he does "Ultimate Spider-Man," things will get better.

I also think that if he concentrates more on his main storyline (the corruption with SHIELD, Hydra, and the Hand), we'll see better writing.

And that's all I have to say about that as I've been writing this for a half an hour.

~W~

[dlw66]

W, you are a shepherd for your flock. Consider yourself exalted for taking the time to spell all of that out.

[thew40]

dlw66 said:

W, you are a shepherd for your flock. Consider yourself exalted for taking the time to spell all of that out.

Thanks!
I've been meaning to rant about this for a while, to be honest, so I felt this was a good opportunity.

~W~

[daned]

Thanks w. I've been waiting on you for a while. I don't agree with you on many points, but I appreciate the effort.

I'm not going to rip into you, but I have two points I want to make.

1) I've made this point before, but it hasn't really generated any discussion, so (picture a petulant 30 year old Australian jumping up and down) ACKNOWLEDGE ME DAMMIT!!! Why should I have to "Take it as a whole?" Seriously. This comic medium is a monthly serial. It is made of (supposedly) significant parts. I don't think you could get away with poor episodes of a tv series and then defend it by saying "you can't look at it as individual shows. Wait 'til the DVD comes out and look at it as a whole series. (I'm sure someone's going to try to bring up an opposing example, but I can't see it). If Bendis wants to write for Trade paperbacks, write graphic novels, and leave the monthlies for someone who gets the genre.

2) This point only occured to me when reading Bendis's comments on Newsarama. He said something along the lines of that the changes in Spidey will be reflected in the Avengers. And someone else (could have been Bendis) said that the upheavals in Cap will be felt in Avengers. And then all these characters kept refering to "Fury's Secret War". And others were refering to "House of M" and I was thinking, "well, wasn't that one issue?" Posters everywhere keep refering to the limited series of Ares and the Sentry (Can we use the acronym MBCST?) And then of course we have Civil War and all the set up single shots like "Illuminati".

I admit that maybe I just don't get a lot of Bendis's tale simply because I haven't bought nor read extra, non-Avengers mags. (Though I am buying, reading and loving Civil War) but once again I ask: should I have to? I realise that occasionally events in the MU will affect the Avengers, but how many extra books and stories have come out affecting NA since its launch two years ago? If I'm a religious follower of a title, should I be expected to buy three extra comics a month just to know what's going on in the comic that is supposed to be the company's flagship title?

Soemone once said (it could have been William Goldman, but I'm almost certain I'm wrong): "The problem with the film industry as a business is that it's art; the problem with the film industry as art is that it's a business". The same thing can be said about the comic industry and I know that no matter what we type, or how passionate we are about our Avengers, our gripes are never going to be heard because all those bandwagon jumpers and generally fickle audience are making NA the best selling title in the business. So, bugger the art and welcome to the reality of business.

^%&^%*^(

Woah. Where am I? What's this thread about?

[daned]

And I'm a West Coast Avenger!!! Woo hoo!!! Where's Tigra laying by the pool?

[Black Knight]

I don't know what to say, to having a fresh look... Except, it read just as bad as a serial comic, the second and third time, as it did the first time. It is slow, poorly thought out, and very anti-climatic. In Breakout, you have 6 issues of putting a team together, and a bunch of villians escape. Do you see anything about all the villians that escaped in the NA comic (except Wrecker). NO, so it is a droped thread. Do you see anything about why the shield group blows up the base before the NA team can look around. (NO, yet another droped thread).

Then we have the Sentry story, where Emma Frost comes in and saves the day, will the Avengers are usless. Poor writing in my opinion.

Then we have the Ronin arc. Lets be blunt, who cares, this was a pointless series of issues, that only served to intro a charater then does not appear again for over 12 issues. Again droped threads, and poor writing.

The Spider-woman arc... You know, I really just want a bunch of heroes sitting around talking for two issues.. that is my idea of a great comic.. OH wait its not. Sorry but the Avengers are not angst ridden teens and bendis needs to stop channeling the OC.

The collecitive arc, well it started out interesting, then he killed Alpha Flight off panel, and pretty much had Iron Man, Sentry and MS. Marvel handle the collective, along with Magneto...
When will we ever see the team actual work together.

The NA Annual. The only shining moment in an otherwise sad comic... Maybe Bendis should only be allowed to do one and dones, because this was good comic.

CW arc... Well, Cap's issues was bad, poor charterization of Cap... Luke Cages was ok, if you want, but what can you expect. The rest was poor at best...

Bendis, is simple not a writer of Super heroes. He is a crime nior writer. It worked for DD and Alias, but it is failing in NA... And before you say how great USM is, look at how badly it has been panned in the last couple months..

Finally, I would like to thank W and bigduke for actually having reason for like NA... I might disagree with you, but I can respect you.

Later

[The Night Phantom]

blackknight said:

In Breakout, you have 6 issues of putting a team together, and a bunch of villians escape. Do you see anything about all the villians that escaped in the NA comic (except Wrecker). NO, so it is a droped thread.

Some minor points of fact: the Silver Samurai, one of the escaped villains, was featured in the Ronin arc. Some of the other escapees were pursued and apprehended in Spider-Man: Breakout. Still, the overall point stands: the New Avengers’ raison d’être seems to have been forgotten.

[redstatecap]

nightphantom said:

Some minor points of fact: the Silver Samurai, one of the escaped villains, was featured in the Ronin arc. Some of the other escapees were pursued and apprehended in Spider-Man: Breakout. Still, the overall point stands: the New Avengers’ raison d’être seems to have been forgotten.

But also recall that the Silver Samurai was, in fact, not apprehended and returned to custody.

RSC

[Doctor Bong]

Which only shows Bendis to be a consistent writer, at least: much in the same way, the reason for disbanding -disbending...?- the original Avengers (ol' Tony's run out of cash...) was dropped altogether as of NA #1...

[thew40]

redstatecap said:

nightphantom said:

Some minor points of fact: the Silver Samurai, one of the escaped villains, was featured in the Ronin arc. Some of the other escapees were pursued and apprehended in Spider-Man: Breakout. Still, the overall point stands: the New Avengers’ raison d’être seems to have been forgotten.

But also recall that the Silver Samurai was, in fact, not apprehended and returned to custody.

RSC

That's because he was wrongfully imprisoned, as explained in the "Secrets and Lies" arch.

~W~

[thew40]

I believe that "Disassembled" and "New Avengers" was just completely mishandled. I like "New Avengers," but I think it would have been a good idea to have a old- school "Mighty Avengers" started at the same that was written by Joe Casey, that way it would have appeased more of you "older" fans.

~W~

[redstatecap]

thew40 said:

I like "New Avengers," but I think it would have been a good idea to have a old- school "Mighty Avengers" started at the same that was written by Joe Casey, that way it would have appeased more of you "older" fans.~W~

Replace "older" with "tasteful" and you're on the right track.

RSC

[Black Knight]

nightphantom said:

blackknight said:

In Breakout, you have 6 issues of putting a team together, and a bunch of villians escape. Do you see anything about all the villians that escaped in the NA comic (except Wrecker). NO, so it is a droped thread.

Some minor points of fact: the Silver Samurai, one of the escaped villains, was featured in the Ronin arc. Some of the other escapees were pursued and apprehended in Spider-Man: Breakout. Still, the overall point stands: the New Avengers’ raison d’être seems to have been forgotten.

I stand corrected about Silver Samurai, I always forget he was one of the escaped villians, even though he was appearing in wolverine comic at the time. LOL

As for spider-man break-out, that leads me to another point regarding bendis. Other writers have to fill in the huge holes he leaves in his plots with other comics. The escaped villians in SPider-man Breakout, the funeral for the Avengers in Hercules, as so on and so on.

[Black Knight]

thew40 said:

I believe that "Disassembled" and "New Avengers" was just completely mishandled. I like "New Avengers," but I think it would have been a good idea to have a old- school "Mighty Avengers" started at the same that was written by Joe Casey, that way it would have appeased more of you "older" fans.

~W~

Actually, I think if Bendis had just taken the charaters he wanted, without Cap and Iron Man, and called it Marvel Knights, he would have been fine.

Let Casey take over the Avengers after disassembled, and fix all the problems and poof everyone is happy and bendis is not screwing up the Avenger name.

[thew40]

blackknight said:

thew40 said:

I believe that "Disassembled" and "New Avengers" was just completely mishandled. I like "New Avengers," but I think it would have been a good idea to have a old- school "Mighty Avengers" started at the same that was written by Joe Casey, that way it would have appeased more of you "older" fans.

~W~

Actually, I think if Bendis had just taken the charaters he wanted, without Cap and Iron Man, and called it Marvel Knights, he would have been fine.

Let Casey take over the Avengers after disassembled, and fix all the problems and poof everyone is happy and bendis is not screwing up the Avenger name.

Agreed.

~W~

[Nutcase65]

After finding this board the other day, and reading several peoples opinions I had to go back and re-read The NA.

You see,... I liked the series for the most part.

After reading on here I thought I had missed something that everyone else was seeing.

After re-reading it,... for the most part I still enjoy it.

Not everything is great (Clint and Wanda ughh)

But I like the stories. I like the art.

I can't remember where I read it but one member mentioned that there were too many loose threads left from arc to the next. That I have to agree with.

Oh well, if enjoying this book means I have bad taste,... you should see the way I dress.

[Doctor Doom]

Honestly, I believe that if Disassembled had been conducted in a manner even remotely resembling competent, I would have enjoyed NA much more. I just re-readd it lately and it's nowhere near as bad as I remembered. Dusassembled, on the other hand, is still a hideous mess.