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Post by uberwolf on Jan 13, 2007 0:54:17 GMT -5
Ew, I wanna play. here's my guess for Bendis' final line up: Echo (given) Ronin (Cap) Red Ronin (giant robot) Wolverine ($$) Spider-Man (ditto $$) Sun Fire Ghost Rider and Captain Ultra plus Angel Iceman Hurcules Dr. Strange and Man-Thing tradition be damned! we NEED more Avengers! You know... i like the Red Ronin idea. At least there is some Avengers history there..... so it would never happen because Bendis doesn't acknowledge any Avengers history before he took over. sigh.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 13, 2007 2:03:45 GMT -5
[sigh] Is it possible to have a thread about "New Avengers" without someone going off on some insane tyrat about Bendis? ~W~ Of course it's possible. In a world where Echo and Ronin can be part of one Avengers team while Sentry and Ares are part of another, or where the Scarlet Witch can kill, revive, kill, revive Hawkeye or the Avengers can have a multi-issue story where they fight against ninjas, anything is possible. Of course, some things are more likely than others.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 13, 2007 9:59:44 GMT -5
It looks like I was right when I suggested that the Doctor Strange: The Oath publicity might be predicting Strange’s joining the Avengers, though I was wrong in suggesting that he would be on the Mighty team. In my opinion, Strange isn’t a terrible choice for an Avengers member; but as I’ve stated before, I prefer him out of the Avengers. He’s a central player in the on-again, off-again Defenders; while I don’t mind some crossing over between the teams, I like the idea that the teams inhabit different “spaces”. If any member of any team can join any other team, the differences between the teams become diminished, and ultimately the teams become less interesting.
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Post by thew40 on Jan 13, 2007 11:24:35 GMT -5
About Doctor Strange -- I am not totally opposed to having him an Avenger in principle. However, I have zero faith in Bendis' ability to handle him correctly. I am going to make a prediction right now -- Dr. Strange is only on the team because Bendis needs a plot device/deus ex machina in the near future. What better deus ex machina than Dr. Strange? Whether it's one big story, or just tidying up all the plot holes that Bendis is too clumsy to resolve without resorting to cop-outs, Dr. Strange will be the fix-all. Of course, this is precisely how Dr. Strange should not be handled. RSC That's exactly what he said he wasn't going to do with Dr. Strange. Read the article. He is even asked if Dr. Strange powers are unlimited and Bendis replied that he wasn't unlimited and isn't going to be portrayed as all-powerful. ~W~
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 13, 2007 12:02:14 GMT -5
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 13, 2007 13:07:39 GMT -5
[/quote]
That's exactly what he said he wasn't going to do with Dr. Strange. Read the article. He is even asked if Dr. Strange powers are unlimited and Bendis replied that he wasn't unlimited and isn't going to be portrayed as all-powerful.
~W~[/quote]
Not that I'm naive enough to believe anything just because Bendis says it, I do hope you are right. I don't really see any reason that Dr. Strange should be portrayed as all powerful or that he couldn't work well with a team. He certainly wasn't portrayed that way in the Defenders and characters like Hell-cat, Nighthawk, Valykrie, etc. were often able to shine even when they were not in a league with Doc and the Silver Surfer in regards to power. There's really no reason he can't work well as an Avenger. That particular choice for the roster doesn't bother me at all. However, I've never been a ninja fan so the Echo/Ronin thing is another matter entirely. My problem with Echo and Ronin isn't that they aren't established Avengers, it's that the storyline introducing Echo was boring and so was the character. Having her and a new Ronin on the same team leads me to believe that Bendis is planning to take the weakest elements from his entire Avengers run (And that is saying a lot) and use them as the lauching point for the new lineup.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jan 13, 2007 14:37:07 GMT -5
thew40: I can see how my last 2 posts weren't clear enough; I wasn't referring to Dr. Strange, actually, since at the time I was writing I wasn't aware of him being Bendis' 3rd choice; I was referring to Ares, Echo AND Ronin but, the thing is, to add Dr. Strange to this mix does, in my opinion, make it worse... Yes, the Avengers have always benefited from new blood, but other than that one time when the team was mainly composed by half of the FF and Gilgamesh (and not many fans really cared for that one...) AND the original NA, they have never had a team composed by THREE newbies... and that's IF Bendis stops there which, to me at least, seems highly unlikely... It should be pretty obvious by now that Bendis is deliberately giving the middle finger to tradition while being on some kind of trip where he thinks he's being original & brilliant... In short, we can expect more of the same ol' Bendis crap.
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Post by thew40 on Jan 13, 2007 16:15:20 GMT -5
It should be pretty obvious by now that Bendis is deliberately giving the middle finger to tradition while being on some kind of trip where he thinks he's being original & brilliant... In short, we can expect more of the same ol' Bendis crap. So every team should be built the exact same way? Why? Writers are allowed to be original, dude. Why do you keep villifying Bendis this way? It's like every small mistake he makes or does something you don't agree, you immediately jump down his throat. You call him a "retard" and accuse him of "giving the finger to tradition." ~W~
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jan 13, 2007 17:14:23 GMT -5
A retard...? No, dude, that wasn't me... you're mixing us up...! I did say he gives the bird salute to tradition which, incidentally, isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself, but in Bendis case (and again, like many here, I'm talking within the context of his Avengers work), it seems obvious to me that he's making a career of doing it for it's own sake, all part, apparently, of a master plan to show his genius, brilliancy & originality; that is, to show to the world what a masterful artist & auteur he is... Yes, every team should be open to new blood every so often, but like the Phantom (was it the Phantom...?) said: if anyone at any given time can be in any team, then what gives each team their flavor, their personality...? What makes them different...?
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 13, 2007 20:21:44 GMT -5
Is it just me or does anyone else think it's possible that maybe Thew40 actually is Bendis? I can't think why else anyone would get so upset every time someone criticizes the guy.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jan 13, 2007 20:56:31 GMT -5
It would be an interesting, intriguing hypothesis, spiderwasp, were it not for the fact (IMO) that, in his heart of hearts, Bendis has only disdain & contempt for longtime fans, so I'm assuming that the Adversary would think it to be beneath him to mix & mingle with them.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 13, 2007 20:59:40 GMT -5
Is it just me or does anyone else think it's possible that maybe Thew40 actually is Bendis? I can’t agree, for W writes far too competently: in general he spells well, he doesn’t echo our questions (“Who would make a good Avenger?” “Do you want someone to make a good Avenger?”), etc., etc.
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Post by Van Plexico on Jan 13, 2007 21:00:05 GMT -5
I made a comment last year to the effect of asking how many times Sentry appeared on the covers of the NEW AVENGERS, vs how many times he actually appeared inside the issues (or even did anything)...
If Bendis uses Dr. Strange in the stories to the extent that he used Sentry... or even Wolverine (or, heck, even Cage!)... Then somehow I don't think we need to worry about "how" he's used... because we won't be seeing him much!
(Except, of course, on the covers....)
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Post by Van Plexico on Jan 13, 2007 21:05:01 GMT -5
I for one am very much enjoying having W here to argue the other side of the case. Back during Heroes Reborn, when I was railing against Rob Liefeld on the AA! site the way many folks are railing against Bendis now, there was virtually no one to stand up for ol' Rob. I think Adrian was in Kindergarden or something, back then. So it's nice to hear at least someone trying to defend the other viewpoint. And, W, for what it's worth, I think folks are saying they feel that Bendis is making "change for change's sake," to try to show off how brilliant and daring he thinks he is, rather than to try to create a good team chemistry and good story. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that, one way or the other, but I think that's what some are saying here.
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Post by thew40 on Jan 13, 2007 22:44:37 GMT -5
It would be an interesting, intriguing hypothesis, spiderwasp, were it not for the fact (IMO) that, in his heart of hearts, Bendis has only disdain & contempt for longtime fans, so I'm assuming that the Adversary would think it to be beneath him to mix & mingle with them. Just out of curiosity, when did he show contempt for the fans? When did he come out and say "I hate those Avengers fan, so I'm going to screw them over!" I'll agree with the "change for change's sake" arguement, but I really don't think Bendis sits at home thinking "I'm such a genuis, I know just how to make those long-term Avengers fans angry!" And no, I'm not Bendis. And to be completely honest, I'd like to go on the record (again!) by saying that I don't think everything Bendis has done is amazing. I've just enjoyed his "New Avengers" run despite what you and some of the others may think of it and me. ~W~
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 14, 2007 2:10:40 GMT -5
And to be completely honest, I'd like to go on the record (again!) by saying that I don't think everything Bendis has done is amazing. I've just enjoyed his "New Avengers" run despite what you and some of the others may think of it and me. ~W~ I think you're a stand up guy W. The whole you being Bendis was a joke. An evil joke. I knew it was wrong and I did it anyways. I'm a bad person. Calling Bendis a retard and then comparing you two wasn't my intention of calling you a retard. It's easy to criticize the Bendis. Never have so many storylines done so little in so long a time. I was excited when I saw the first couple issues of NA. It's what prompted me to get Dissassembled, which sucked, but it got me back into comics. Then I lost interest. Honestly, not only are his stories bad, but characterizations and dialogue are at best mediocre. Every new lineup has it's critics no matter what team is involved. However, this doesn't even seem like Avengers at all anymore. His choice of characters is baffling and just downright weird. New blood is not a bad thing but those of us who do not like his writing know that it doesn't matter who he brings in he will still treat them to his standard two dimensional Avengers style. I want to like the book. His writing makes me cringe, the same way Stephen King's writing style makes me cringe. At least I've been able to finish a Bendis story, so that's a plus for him.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 14, 2007 2:57:22 GMT -5
And to be completely honest, I'd like to go on the record (again!) by saying that I don't think everything Bendis has done is amazing. I've just enjoyed his "New Avengers" run despite what you and some of the others may think of it and me. ~W~ I would like to add that, as uberwolf said, the Bendis thing was a joke. I'll also add that, while I'm no fan of Bendis, I also agree that not everything he writes is awful. His Civil War issues were actually pretty good but then, the argument has been made before that he's better with individual characters than with teams. My biggest problem with the Bendis run is that the line up didn't evolve, it just suddenly changed and good characters were ruined. It was also clear from the start that this lineup was meant to be here for quite a while and the former members wouldn't be returning any time soon. In the past, there have been storylines, issues, or lineups that I didn't like but they were easier to stick out because I knew things would be evolving into something different soon, or at least there was hope that it would. The only time I've seen a change as significant as Bendis' was with "Heroes Reborn" which was intended to run longer. That was also the only time I've ever stopped buying Avengers since the 70s. In essence I could shrug off the fact that I don't like the direction he's taken with the book if he wasn't making it almost impossible for future writers to bring things back around. Maybe it's this way that he's at least trying to make so many permanent changes that makes many of us long time fans feel like he's spit in our faces.
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daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
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Post by daned on Jan 14, 2007 3:25:42 GMT -5
His writing makes me cringe, the same way Stephen King's writing style makes me cringe. At least I've been able to finish a Bendis story, so that's a plus for him. You've just lost me dude. And thew? Can you tell me why the NA run works for you? I'm still looking for a decent explanation. The Stephen King fan
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Post by thew40 on Jan 14, 2007 12:36:10 GMT -5
And thew? Can you tell me why the NA run works for you? I'm still looking for a decent explanation. I've explained it a lot. Just do a simple search for some of my other posts in the NA forum. If I have time later today, I'll go through it again. My biggest problem with the Bendis run is that the line up didn't evolve, it just suddenly changed and good characters were ruined. I'll agree with you here, actually, save for the "good characters were ruined" part. Couldn't this have been said about "The Crossing?" And look what Busiek did. He turned the book around (after it was tossed into "Heroes Reborn"). I think you're a stand up guy W. The whole you being Bendis was a joke. An evil joke. I knew it was wrong and I did it anyways. I'm a bad person. Calling Bendis a retard and then comparing you two wasn't my intention of calling you a retard. I really didn't see that way. My problem isn't that you are crticial of Bendis, it's that you've made him out to be the worst person in the world. Writing insults, making wild accusations, and the like is just ignorant, in my opinion. Writing about how you don't like his writing style or the way he's handled the characters or that the storylines are bland or whatever, that's more effective. Have you ever met Bendis? Do you know for a fact that he hates Avengers history or Avengers fans? If you have, then go to town, but I doubt that you have. All I'm saying is that you should be critical of the writing, not insulting the person. Have you read a comic with the new "New Avengers" line-up? How can you know if you haven't? ~W~
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 14, 2007 19:27:18 GMT -5
Have you read a comic with the new NA line-up? How can you know if you haven't? ~W~ I've read NA up to issue eighteen. A very so so run and it didn't keep me interested enough to read any more. I collected Avengers from issues 200 to 385 or so and just bought the Busiak run which I'm reading now. There were more than a few bad runs, writing and art work but never the two years of bland storytelling and non action that Bendis brought. I wouldn't be complaining about the man if I didn't witness his lack of storytelling. Don't ever assume I would do that. I don't complain just for the fact I like to complain. I have a legitimate beef over his writing or lack there of. I would like to point out I have never criticized the fact you like Bendis just the man and his writing (hold the phone, I'm going to explain that). Apple and Oranges man. I don't understand your total support for the Bendis but I can accept you like his writing. I've said this before about venting. I don't know BMB nor do I want to. He does things that enrage my view of what the Avengers should be. I have no way to change what he's done so I vent. I call him petty names and over exaggerate what he's done to blow off steam. Do I really want to cause physical or mental harm to the man? No. I want him to stop making a wasteland of the Avengers franchise. Will that happen? Apparently not cause his latest stream of ideas are worse than what he's done before. You can verbally chastise me all you want I will still make fun of the guy. If you want a comparison it's the same thing with everyone making fun of George Bush Jr. Do all these late night comics and liberal news medias personally know George Bush? No they don't and they make a living off criticizing him. I do Bendis for free dammit. I can't believe you've never made fun of someone who'se made you mad. If you haven't you deserve some kind of humanitarian award because that's a rare thing these days. Your parents should be d**n proud because they brought you up right. I'm not even being sarcastic here, I mean it. Daned, I was just commenting on how I don't like the writing of Bendis and Stephen King. If you like Stephen King and his books make you happy that's great, keep on a readin'. King's style just rubs me the wrong way. I know he's written a bazillion books and he's the so called "Master of Horror" but I think his work sucks. I've tried to read a few of his books but could never get all the way through one. If I try something and don't like it, that's it I don't need to mess with it. But I WILL try it first. Another writer I can't stand is R.A. Salvatore. How he is even allowed near any kind of writing material is beyond me. Yet, many people like his work. I'm getting tired of have to explain my every utterance. Listen up, if I do not like something I will say so. I'm not going to pretend the world is all happy sunny joy joy. The same goes for anything I like. If I like something I will say so. It just so happens there has been nothing Avengerish lately that I find likeable.
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daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
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Post by daned on Jan 15, 2007 0:18:50 GMT -5
No need to explain uber. Just having a dig. Had a bad day, huh?
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 15, 2007 0:59:55 GMT -5
I'm with ya Ub. (Except I like King). It's fun to dis the guy that's damaged our beloved team. It's not like we're going after him with a big stick. That reminds me, does anyone have his address? (It's a joke, Thew)
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 15, 2007 18:00:13 GMT -5
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 15, 2007 18:07:52 GMT -5
Ensures that even though the book stinks (my opinion, W), the zombies will be happy. Simply amazing. What in the name of all that is holy do any of these characters announced so far have to do with the Avengers?
Ares is starting to make sense in comparison. At least he was in the book before...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 15, 2007 19:55:13 GMT -5
Ares is starting to make sense in comparison. At least he was in the book before... Well, at this point, so has Wolverine. The silver lining of Logan’s placement in the new New Avengers lineup, as compared to the teammates thus far revealed, is that it couldn’t bring the book down any further…! Really, the only surprise in his membership in the revised team is that he isn’t also in Mighty…
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Post by thew40 on Jan 15, 2007 22:20:56 GMT -5
Well, I was hoping he wasn't going to be on the team, to be honest. I'm pretty disappointed with this one.
Oh well, nothing I can do about it.
I hope they deal with the return of Wolverine's memories in some way or another, as well as mention the beating Logan gave Cap in "Wolverine Origins."
~W~
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 15, 2007 22:51:14 GMT -5
So you think those Iron Fist rumors are true? This team is so under powered so far they need Dr Strange to beef them up. Who could be next... Black Cat? Daredevil? I'm almost thinking Ronin might be Matt Murdock. He seemed kind of interested in the costume change idea when Cap brought it up.
Seems like Bendis is making a powerhouse team to deal with the big threats and a low power team for more mundane emergencies. Not a bad idea.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 15, 2007 23:03:10 GMT -5
I can't see any team with Dr. Strange on it as a 'low power team', but otherwise, I see what you're saying.
My guesses for the remaining roster would be Cage, Spider-woman, and possibly Hawkeye. The first two are Bendis favorites, and the return of Hawkeye would be throwing us a bone. And you know, I wouldn't have a problem with any of those characters. I just don't like the first four.
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 16, 2007 1:23:49 GMT -5
The New NA would be perfect to fight NINJA, except for Dr Strange. I'm sure the Hand could dig up some Japanese sorcerers to keep him busy. Hawkeye... I don't see it. After issue 26 I'm waiting for bow slinging mutant sorcerers from the future to pop in any minute. It's gonna happen, you wait. Probly twins too.
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Post by thew40 on Jan 16, 2007 9:49:27 GMT -5
So I had an idea in regards to having Wolverine on the team - as well as previous non or barely Avengers.
With so many Avengers vets on the "Mighty" team (save Ares), perhaps for NA it's all in the title. Perhaps because it's called "New Avengers," it's purpose it bring in new Avengers members. Just a thought.
As far as Wolverine joining, I'm a little uncertain. Bendis seemed to want to use him, but left him out of the one story that he should have been in - the beloved Hand story. That drove me crazy. Considering all the recent history Logan had with the Hand and the fact that this involved the Clan Yashinda, Wolverine should have been there.
So, I'm hoping that Bendis doesn't drop the ball in regards to Wolverine. I'm reluctact to even have him on the Aveners team, but as long as he's there, he better be used.
I'm not the biggest Wolverine fan, by the way. But right now, I think it's probably one of the best eras for ol' Wolvie - what we the high quality of books we're seeing with Wolverine: Origins, Astonishing X-Men, and recent issues of Wolverine itself.
So Bendis better throw his hat in the ring with Loeb, Whedon, and Way.
~W~
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