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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 14, 2006 12:19:12 GMT -5
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 14, 2006 20:41:59 GMT -5
What, you mean, like, you would actually SWITCH sides on our own little version of CW & would finally stop defending the monster...?
That would be ALMOST worth it...
Well, this kinda lends itself nicely to that other post, "The New Masters of Evil"... if Jarvis is killed, the Grim Reaper can bring him back so he can once more regain his rightful place as the leader of said Masters, as... the Crimson Cowl...!!! TA-DA-DA-DA...!!! Drum rolls, please...!!!
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Post by uberwolf on Nov 14, 2006 21:59:50 GMT -5
How could he kill Jarvis? He would break his trend of absolutely nothing ever happening in the NA.
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Post by Tana Nile on Nov 14, 2006 22:33:39 GMT -5
OK guys, let's not jump to conclusions here. I know the desire to go after Bendis is strong, but we don't know what is going on in this issue. Jarvis may be just fine.
However, if he isn't, it will definitely be the final straw for me, Bendis-wise.
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Post by Engage on Nov 14, 2006 23:03:12 GMT -5
There's still a chance that in the page after this Jarvis beats the living hell out of the guy who shot him.
Right? Please?
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 14, 2006 23:47:05 GMT -5
Despite the fact that the pistol is a Sig-Sauer (caliber unknown) the sound effect puts me in mind of a tranquilizer gun. "Fwhaam" is not typically used to represent a pistol-shot. I predict ole' Jarvis got tranqued.
I don't think even Bendis is dumb enough to kill off Jarvis right now.
RSC
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 15, 2006 3:51:53 GMT -5
 Let's wait and see, hopefully it's not as bad as it looks ( :  BTW, did things change a lot in an issue I didn't pick up or the one shooting is not really Tony ? 
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Nov 15, 2006 9:26:57 GMT -5
I stopped reading the Ultimates because of what they did to Jarvis there (among other things, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back).
I am a pretty passive person and can tolerate mild incompetence (after all, I work in an office). But the blatant, intrusive, destructive stupidity of killing Jarvis would really honk me off. But I am probably overreacting. I'll know in a couple hours when I pick it up.
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 15, 2006 13:18:49 GMT -5
What, you mean, like, you would actually SWITCH sides on our own little version of CW & would finally stop defending the monster...? That would be ALMOST worth it... Well, this kinda lends itself nicely to that other post, "The New Masters of Evil"... if Jarvis is killed, the Grim Reaper can bring him back so he can once more regain his rightful place as the leader of said Masters, as... the Crimson Cowl...!!! TA-DA-DA-DA...!!! Drum rolls, please...!!! HA! the Crimson Cowl! that would be good, as long as Jarvis isn't killed. (remember when he had that eye patch? he was maimed then and survived.) I'm sure Jarvis is going to be okay (after his resurection ,that is!) |
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Post by balok on Nov 15, 2006 13:34:30 GMT -5
Perhaps Bendis has a plan: he thinks he has enough people buying the book that he can do without long time fans, who only b***h and moan anyway. So he's going to do a series of plot moves intending to alienate us and drive us away from the book, so that only those who worship at his feet will remain. Without the shrill voices reminding him he's not as good as he thinks he is, there's no telling what he'll accomplish!
Hey, it could happen...
Interesting: in the first iteration I did not self-censor a certain word and it got replaced with 'pregnant dog' by the board software.
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 15, 2006 20:15:11 GMT -5
anyway, I read the issue and all I can say is, very, well, I dunno, I've seen this before, and the last panel is something that fellow poster dr. doom has been saying for a while on the Iron Man board. So, hmmm, maybe #26 is my last...
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Post by bobc on Nov 16, 2006 8:46:54 GMT -5
Okay I'm gonna say it--why do you guys keep buying New Avengers if you don't like it? The only way Marvel is going to change writers is if they are hit in the pocketbook. I don't understand how people can hate what he's done to our favorite book this much, but turn around and support it by buying it month after month. Bendis has given us longtime Avengers fans the stiff middle finger for close to three years now, and we just keep on buying. I don't get it
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Nov 16, 2006 15:00:00 GMT -5
Okay, I finally got my copy today and I overreacted. The story wasn't exciting, but it was okay. I must say I have had enough build up. I'm ready for some payoff.
Just a question, have we seen this techno dude before this issue? Or is he someone pulled out of the writer's backside to throw in IM's face?
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 16, 2006 19:04:02 GMT -5
Okay I'm gonna say it--why do you guys keep buying New Avengers if you don't like it? The only way Marvel is going to change writers is if they are hit in the pocketbook. I don't understand how people can hate what he's done to our favorite book this much, but turn around and support it by buying it month after month. Bendis has given us longtime Avengers fans the stiff middle finger for close to three years now, and we just keep on buying. I don't get it well, personally, I'm not a die hard fan of anything. I just recently ventured back into the Avengers fold because I'm an avid (and rabid) old school comic fan and the Avengers in concept, origin, and characters have always been one of my favorites, but exicution is not always to my liking. That said, I have read every Avengers comic from the days of Stan Lee all the way up to where I fell off and started reading DC: The Crossing. (untill they messed up Supes and that brought me back to Marvel) With the new Avengers I started with Dissasemble, but to this day I could never read Bendis' run straight through. I always end up dropping it and picking it up as back issues to current. Really, I was going to drop it after I bought and couldn't read the Luke Cage issue, but because nothing else came in I ended up buying and enjoying the Spider-Woman issue and it's all been pretty good since then. BUT, I don't give a rats ass about the Avengers fighting ninjas, they should save that for Heroes for Hire. I think the first time I passed on a Bendis storyline it had something to do with ninjas (but, you know, boredom forced me to buy them anyway.) so, to sum it up: I don't hate Bendis, I just don't like the subject he chooses to write about all the time (spys and ninjas, not my genre, I'm more robots and gorillas) vote with my wallet? www.marvelcomics.com/catalog/?book_id=5413nice, it's got Wanda, Hawkeye, maybe resolves something... Yes www.marvelcomics.com/catalog/?book_id=5963this one's got Ronin, Electra and Hand Ninjas? I don't think so. (unless I get bored) peace! |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 17, 2006 18:37:20 GMT -5
I just want to point out that... well, I mean no offence but frankly, "Hurting marvel with your wallet" won't work in this case. It just won't. Now I'm in full agreement with anyone who gives up the book because they don't like it, but to do so in the hopes it will cause marvel to change writers... it's not going to happen. New Avengers is consistently one of the number one books, and I'm willing to bet if every single major avengers fan who hates new avengers dropped it, it would still have extremely strong sales. Not trying to discourage and of course if you don't like it- drop it!
Anyway....
Wow. Bendis really does seem to struggle with the whole concept of civil war. It's as though he is unable to comprehend how anyone could support Tony and thus decides to have him down and out for the majority of the issue. Funny to see fans praise him for making Maria Hill more than a 2d caricature. Considering it was BENDIS WHO MADE HER A 2D CARICATURE!!
Once again, an Avengers issue in which we see very little of the actual... Avengers. Interestingly, the main civil war seems to have already all but formed the mighty avengers with the avengers being referred to and presumably including wasp, Hank etc again- I'll be interested in what excuse Bendis comes up with to oust Hank but keep Jan.
Anyway, does a very poor job of portraying the pro-reg side, has VERY little of the actual Avengers...
And yet is actually better than most of his usual rubbish.
Go figure.
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 17, 2006 21:35:31 GMT -5
I just want to point out that... well, I mean no offence but frankly, "Hurting marvel with your wallet" won't work in this case. It just won't. Now I'm in full agreement with anyone who gives up the book because they don't like it, but to do so in the hopes it will cause marvel to change writers... it's not going to happen. New Avengers is consistently one of the number one books, and I'm willing to bet if every single major avengers fan who hates new avengers dropped it, it would still have extremely strong sales. Not trying to discourage and of course if you don't like it- drop it! I agree with everything you said Doc. No offense taken. I am going to drop the book after #26 (for at least the Ninja issues) I don't mind Bendis as much as some people here, in fact, I like about 50% of his work. and even though I am dropping the book for a while, I like the people that post here and will continue to do so. thanks again Doc. peace! |
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 17, 2006 21:43:14 GMT -5
I just want to point out that... well, I mean no offence but frankly, "Hurting marvel with your wallet" won't work in this case. It just won't. Now I'm in full agreement with anyone who gives up the book because they don't like it, but to do so in the hopes it will cause marvel to change writers... it's not going to happen. New Avengers is consistently one of the number one books, and I'm willing to bet if every single major avengers fan who hates new avengers dropped it, it would still have extremely strong sales. Not trying to discourage and of course if you don't like it- drop it! I disagree here. I've looked at sales figures of various books at various times, and it's my opinion that a very significant chunk of total sales is represented by hard-core completists. Probably as much as a third on any given major book. If the people who dislike the book (but buy it out of completist tendencies) dropped the title, I truly believe that sales would take an immediate 25%+ drop. Marvel would most certainly notice that. For comparison -- The Avengers, prior to Bendis, sold around 85K. NA sells around 110K. Take away 25% of that, and it looks quite similar to Vol.3 sales. At the very least that means that Bendis doesn't get a second title. At best that means Bendis' NA tenure will be shortened, because it will be seen as (financially) no different from what the book has acheived under pretty much any other V3 writer. Your wallet is your only weapon, and every single lost sale is significant. I think it's accurate to say that Hill's characterization has been all over the map. She started off being portrayed by Bendis as "fascist, evil, and corrupt" in the NA 2-3. On the eve of CW (issue #16 IIRC) Bendis did a screeching 180 and portrayed her as "a hard-nosed, but ultimately legitimate security-minded leader." She's been back to "fascist, evil, and corrupt" at least a couple of times since, and now she's "coquettish and doubt-ridden." It shouldn't be that hard to be consistent. Maybe Hank will be busy in Nurenberg along with Tony and Reed. I don't think he's done a good job portraying the antis either, but he is definitely more enthusiastic and interested in portraying the antis than he is the pros. Iron Man -- the main antagonist of the whole miniseries -- gets a whole issue to himself to present his perspective...and Bendis writes him as hostage to a non-entity plot-device character. But, to be fair to Bendis, the characterization of IM handed by Millar to Bendis is nearly impossible to work with. I mean, how do you write a character that has been morphed into a Nazi overnight? My opinion is that the plot of this issue could very well be analogous to the plots of the Captain America CW tie-ins. That is, that this is a dodge to avoid really having to deal with characterization issues that the writer feels he can't solve. On the other hand, Cap's characterization from Millar was equally appalling, but Bendis probably sympathizes much more with that political extreme, and thus put more effort into his end of it. That isn't to say that he got it right, because Bendis' effort on Cap in NA #21 was a travesty. All of which makes me wonder how the hell this was supposed to be a "balanced" series. RSC |
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 17, 2006 23:34:00 GMT -5
hmmm, so, I started again with Bendis' run, do you all hate me for being part of the 25% new readers (as reflected in redstatecap's math above, sales now v.s. sales then)
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Post by Tana Nile on Nov 18, 2006 0:41:51 GMT -5
Anyway.... Once again, an Avengers issue in which we see very little of the actual... Avengers. Interestingly, the main civil war seems to have already all but formed the mighty avengers with the avengers being referred to and presumably including wasp, Hank etc again- I'll be interested in what excuse Bendis comes up with to oust Hank but keep Jan. Based on the fact that Hank is now taking antidepressants (Civil War 5), and knowing his past history of mental illness, perhaps he will wind up in a mental hospital? Then we can have another Avenger who "lost it". Maybe I am just getting old, but I liked it when my heroes triumphed over their problems..... |
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Post by uberwolf on Nov 18, 2006 1:22:20 GMT -5
Hank doesn't like playing the hero anyway, he's said that often enough. He's probly happily working in his lab creating some super powerful robot that will end up warping reality just in time for, oh, next summers big crossover event.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 18, 2006 4:54:12 GMT -5
Or protagonist depending on your PoV.
Now I certainly don't believe that's fair. I mean, you'll get no argument from me that civil war is biased, but the main series is MUCH, MUCH more unbiased than many of the tie-ins, and New Avengers is very possibly the most biased book on the market.
And of course, it is your view and your OPINION that that is the reason Brubaker is doing what he is, while I completely disagree and find it easy to reconcile what is happening in CW with Brubaker's Cap when you consider CW as character development- the character of Cap is very obviously being pushed more and more hardcore as the war goes on.
Again, in your opinion. Many major review sites have praised it consistently and indeed IGN and- I think it MAY have been COmixtreme?- said he should write Cap after Brubaker. And no, don't give me that "Ultimate Cap" rubbish. For one thing, Ultimate Cap would have been pro-reg all the way and it was Millar who brought up that Cap should be anti.
Here at least we agree.
But honestly, Civil War #5 and Iron Man #13 do a pretty good job of portraying the pro side.
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Post by bobc on Nov 18, 2006 13:11:50 GMT -5
I'm Mark Millar's biggest fan, but I think he belongs in the Ultimate Universe. I love reading his alternate takes on Marvel superheroes, but they should stay in that ultimate universe. I stopped reading the Civil War stuff after a couple of issues, because as per usual these days, I didn't recognize any of the imposters posing as iron Man, Wasp, ect.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 18, 2006 13:55:56 GMT -5
I'm Mark Millar's biggest fan, but I think he belongs in the Ultimate Universe. I love reading his alternate takes on Marvel superheroes, but they should stay in that ultimate universe. I stopped reading the Civil War stuff after a couple of issues, because as per usual these days, I didn't recognize any of the imposters posing as iron Man, Wasp, ect. Firstly- I will fight to the death for the title of Mark Millar's biggest fan  Secondly... I can see the Im criticisms but... why Wasp? I mean, she hasn't exactly had that many lines, and when they have they haven't been that significent. How can you really take issue with that? Oh yeah guys, if nothing else CW seems like an Avengers reunion. Stingray, Firebird, Triathlon, Firestar, Justice.... all the characters I read about in my first Avengers issues (Busiek's) there, and often actually having lines. (I finally realised how epic this was when ULTRA GIRL had a line. ULTRA GIRL!) |
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Post by spiderwasp on Nov 18, 2006 14:47:47 GMT -5
I agree with the issues concerning the Wasp's characterization. Particularly concerning her initial reaction in Civil War #1. Her only comment in the whole book was to Luke Cage - "Pension plans and annual vacation time? It's ridiculous. What are they trying to do? Turn us into civil servants?" The next time we saw her, she was firmly in the pro-registration camp. I can understand that someone's initial reaction to something isn't necessarily the same one that the end up with, but there was never any transition shown. Where did the flip flop come from?
I also think Wasp would have been against the idea of cloning Thor. I can see Reed Richards and Hank going along because of the scientific angle, but I would think Wasp would be appalled. Even when he killed Goliath, we saw some remorse from Hank and Spider-man, but Jan just sort of tossed it off. I don't see that as being in character.
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Post by bobc on Nov 18, 2006 16:10:43 GMT -5
Well from the little I remember of that not-very-memorable two or three issues, the Wasp just seemed to go with the flow and not question anything. Okay maybe one sentence of questioning, but overall she seemed like she was just the anonymous nobody that she was in the early 70's. Remember? Before the whole "Under Siege" era where she became a tough-minded, great leader?
I agree with Spiderwasp--there was zero transition shown, and that's bad.
I really wanted to like this thing. I really did. But once again, just like New Avengers, Civil War is one Big Idea that could have kicked azz like the Defenders/Avengers war in the 70's--but what we got instead was tons of missed opportunities and shallowness. Just the Thor clone issue alone, as Spiderwasp points out, could have made for some seriously interesting character development.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 18, 2006 18:42:10 GMT -5
To be fair, as we learnt it wasn't QUITE as bad as just flat out cloning him. It was mostly cyborg, spliced with DNA.
...Not that that's really much better.
In an ideal world, Wasp would be focused on in an Avengers book. We don't have one, and to be fair I don't feel Millar should be spending his time addressing why exactly people like Wasp who, much as I love her, is NOT exactly a major player in the MU right now, have chosen their sides, in the main book. That's for others.
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 18, 2006 20:35:58 GMT -5
if IT was mostly cyborg, were the human parts cloned from the real Thor?
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Post by bobc on Nov 18, 2006 20:56:27 GMT -5
Even if the Wasp isn't a major character these days, a little respect would be nice. I don't want to get hung up on the Wasp--she was just an example. I just don't see anything interesting going on with anybody.
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Post by Yellowjacket on Nov 19, 2006 9:55:49 GMT -5
To be fair, as we learnt it wasn't QUITE as bad as just flat out cloning him. It was mostly cyborg, spliced with DNA. ...Not that that's really much better. Sorry, I think it is way better. This way it´s practically an non-event. Wouldn´t there have been the killing of Bill Foster this "clone" wouldn´t even be a memorably event. Though it isn´t Millars brighties idea, I have no problem with this kind of "cloned machine" like I´d have with a "full clone". (Full) clones in MU? Please, no more. Never. |
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 19, 2006 13:17:34 GMT -5
Or protagonist depending on your PoV. Of course he's supposed to be arguably a protagonist -- but in keeping with the heavily slanted nature of CW he is, functionally, the antagonist. Don't agree. The Pulse supposedly is worse than either CW or NA, but otherwise Millar has been setting the tone of characterization within CW. Millar managed to make Cap into a totally unrecognizable and unsympathetic "protagonist." All of which is totally out-of-character for Cap. Millar is writing a hybrid of Ult and 616 Cap. He's writing the personality and tactics of Ult and the probable politics of 616. And I don't care who is on Millar's jock. He's a political hack, nothing more. Doesn't change the fact that Bendis has IM in his portfolio too, and an obligation to present the character's perspective as best he can manage it -- which he didn't do. RSC |
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