Should the New Avengers exist- under another name?

[Doctor Doom]

Hey, gang!

Well, I was skimming some old Avengers issues, followed by some New Avengers. (I then read some Ultimates, just to cheer me up) I'd been thinking about the new Thunderbolts line-up (New Avengers for villains) and a few other things, and I started to ponder this question.

Should the New Avengers team exist... but under a name which ISN'T Avengers. The idea was further pushed by the review of new Avengers at www.revolutionsf.com/article.html?id=2840 from a few years back. After all, is there anything wrong with Spidey, Wolverine and the gang having their own comic book? Is there anything wrong with there being a Marvel all-stars team?

I don't think so.

But the problem is that it comes at the cost of the Avengers. Now the many flaws of NA and the reasons they are not real Avengers has been done to death, so I'll make this as short and concise as I can:

Should the New Avengers or Marvel all-stars team exist under ANOTHER name (Leaving the Avengers slot for... y'know... the Avengers)?

Or was it a bad idea which should never have existed at all?

I'm very curious to know what answers I'll recieve!

[Doctor Bong]

It was a horrible idea (albeit one that became a best-seller, sigh...!!!) which should have never existed at all.

[The Night Phantom]

I’ve already said some things that dance around this question:

nightphantom said:

[...] a series with a long, strong legacy probably has a lot of fans for whom the legacy is a selling point. If one wishes to write a slew of stories that ignore such a legacy, it may make more sense to write for a new series instead.

nightphantom said:

While you can’t please everybody, and the legacy criterion is hardly the only valid factor upon which to evaluate Avengers writing, I think it’s an important one. And Marvel must think so too, or else it wouldn’t bother maintaining the Avengers name, series, etc.

Yes…the name Avengers is a large part of the problem with New Avengers. However, under any name, this rose pretender would still smell less than sweet. There would still be problems with team dynamics, characterization, and so on.

Is it possible to get someone with more suitable writing talent to take on a group composed of this motley collection of characters and turn it into a minor classic? Maybe. We’ve discussed this question before, but we can certainly discuss it again!

I would hardly be the first to question whether New Avengers really has an “all-star” membership. You would need to add a few stars (the Thing, the Hulk, arguably the Punisher…) and drop some second-stringers like Cage, Spider-Woman, and the Sentry. Frankly, I think the organic growth of the Marvel Universe militates against a truly all-star team, in the long run. DC’s JLA has at times been an all-star team (icons like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern…), but that ultimately comes out of the Silver Age, when—let’s face it—DC had great icons but did not have the quirky realism that the emerging Marvel Universe built its success on. The first “modern” Marvel Universe comic was a team book of brand-new characters that served as a sort of anti-JLA. (For those of you just tuning in, I mean Fantastic Four.  ) And although there have been attempts to turn some of its members into solo stars, their greatest success has always been as part of the FF ensemble. Even a breakout Marvel star like Wolverine is a member of his signature team first and foremost—yes, you can take him out of the X-Men and put him in solo books or other team books, but at heart he remains an X-Man through and through. Other star characters can serve on teams from time to time but are classically loners (Spider-Man, the Hulk, the Punisher, Doctor Strange, the Silver Surfer…), and an attempt to keep them on an all-star team for a lengthy period would likely result in a violation of the characterization that defines them in the first place.

[uberwolf]

I've said before I don't mind the line up, it's the writing I can't stand. A good writer should be able to take any collection of individuals and make a team out of them. There should be something going on to make you care about the people involved. They should be a family, even a disfunctional one. Back when Cap and Hawkeye were arguing over what color the sky was there was a grudging respect between them. Bendis's Avengers are like paper cut outs. Yeah, you can see where they are but they have no dimension. The fact he had to pad his team with Marvel's ubersellers tells me he knew he wasn't up to the task. "Even if my Avengers suck, fans will still buy because Spidey and Wolvie are in it"

I'm not crazy about the line up, I'd prefer obscure heroes that would benifit more from a team. What I'd really prefer is a writer that could take what he does have and make it something you'd care about.

[steed]

I agree with Uberwolf. It's not the characters I don't like, it's the way they're written and drawn. I wouldn't mind this book being called the New Avengers if something happened in it. But it doesn't. The characters stand around and talk and act out of character. There's no action or chemistry or anything remotely Avenger-like about this book. It's like I read in a review, this looks like some fan fiction.

So don't call it the Avengers and I won't care what you do with this book. It would be like the X-Men. I know they're out there but I don't feel compelled to read them.

And since I voted to give them another name, here's my suggestion:

OMEGA FLIGHT AMERICA!!!!

Boy, that has a snappy ring to it.

[bobc]

They can bring this snooze-fest of a "team" back under any other name and I still won't be buying it.

For the first time in almost 30 years, I have stopped buying Marvel comics. Bendis is the reason.

[steed]

Frankly, I think the organic growth of the Marvel Universe militates against a truly all-star team, in the long run

What makes you think that this would stop Joe Q from trying to do it anyway.

[Doctor Doom]

nightphantom said:

I?ve already said some things that dance around this question:

nightphantom said:

[...] a series with a long, strong legacy probably has a lot of fans for whom the legacy is a selling point. If one wishes to write a slew of stories that ignore such a legacy, it may make more sense to write for a new series instead.

nightphantom said:

While you can?t please everybody, and the legacy criterion is hardly the only valid factor upon which to evaluate Avengers writing, I think it?s an important one. And Marvel must think so too, or else it wouldn?t bother maintaining the Avengers name, series, etc.

Yes?the name Avengers is a large part of the problem with New Avengers. However, under any name, this rose pretender would still smell less than sweet. There would still be problems with team dynamics, characterization, and so on.

Is it possible to get someone with more suitable writing talent to take on a group composed of this motley collection of characters and turn it into a minor classic? Maybe. We?ve discussed this question before, but we can certainly discuss it again!

Ah, thanks for the link to the previous discussion, and thanks for your comments indeed.

I would hardly be the first to question whether New Avengers really has an ?all-star? membership. You would need to add a few stars (the Thing, the Hulk, arguably the Punisher?) and drop some second-stringers like Cage, Spider-Woman, and the Sentry.

I completely agree, though I may take issue with listing Sentry as a second-stringer. But I didn't mean the team per se (I apologize if I said that above.) I meant the IDEA of it being comprised of All-stars the way the JLA has been for much of it's history, as you said. THe Avengers were never really about all that.

Frankly, I think the organic growth of the Marvel Universe militates against a truly all-star team, in the long run. DC?s JLA has at times been an all-star team (icons like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern?), but that ultimately comes out of the Silver Age, when?let?s face it?DC had great icons but did not have the quirky realism that the emerging Marvel Universe built its success on. The first ?modern? Marvel Universe comic was a team book of brand-new characters that served as a sort of anti-JLA. (For those of you just tuning in, I mean Fantastic Four.  ) And although there have been attempts to turn some of its members into solo stars, their greatest success has always been as part of the FF ensemble. Even a breakout Marvel star like Wolverine is a member of his signature team first and foremost?yes, you can take him out of the X-Men and put him in solo books or other team books, but at heart he remains an X-Man through and through. Other star characters can serve on teams from time to time but are classically loners (Spider-Man, the Hulk, the Punisher, Doctor Strange, the Silver Surfer?), and an attempt to keep them on an all-star team for a lengthy period would likely result in a violation of the characterization that defines them in the first place.

Very interesting, and with many very valid points. Certainly people like Spider-Man are loners through and through, and I honestly hadn't thought about it as much as this before. So, out of interest- what do you think an 'All-star' Marvel line-up would consist of for a team REALISTICALLY speaking, given what you said above?

[The Night Phantom]

steed said:

Frankly, I think the organic growth of the Marvel Universe militates against a truly all-star team, in the long run

What makes you think that this would stop Joe Q from trying to do it anyway.

What makes you think that I think that?

[dlw66]

How's this for a creepy premonition???

[steed]

Or "PICK FOUR!"

[The Night Phantom]

docdoom said:

I completely agree, though I may take issue with listing Sentry as a second-stringer.

You’re right; I was too generous. In terms of power level he’s top-notch, but he’s not a Marvel star with great renown and popularity and charismatic drawing power among the readership and potential readership.

But I didn't mean the team per se (I apologize if I said that above.) I meant the IDEA of it being comprised of All-stars the way the JLA has been for much of it's history, as you said. THe Avengers were never really about all that.

The initial line-up was positioned that way, but (I hope I’m not showing ignorance here) I have my doubts. I could buy that Iron Man and Thor were already stars in the Marvel constellation. But was Ant-Man, let alone his airhead girl sidekick? And wasn’t the Hulk a leftover from a failed series? And if Marvel was looking for star power, where was Spider-Man, for cripes’ sake? Why not give the Human Torch and the Thing at least associate membership? I think The Avengers was modeled after the JLA all-star ethic—but no, it wasn’t really that kind of comic, because it wasn’t set in that kind of universe.

Certainly people like Spider-Man are loners through and through, and I honestly hadn't thought about it as much as this before. So, out of interest- what do you think an 'All-star' Marvel line-up would consist of for a team REALISTICALLY speaking, given what you said above?

I haven’t thought about it much either. I think the Marvel style has strongly militated against the possibility of such a series existing while remaining true to its stars’ classic personalities. Yeah, you could disqualify the loners and still have some stars to put together, but would you have enough that would really belong together for a good-length run? For example, Wolverine can be a team player when he wants to, but keeping him on a team with Captain America or Thor for a long time strains credulity. Of course, I suppose it depends on whom you consider a star. In my view, star power is drawing power, the kind that entices even non-fans to a project. Wolverine and Spider-Man are stars; one can easily imagine people who know the characters only from their recent movies being fascinated by the idea of a Spidey–Logan team-up comic (if only they could find comics for sale, but that’s another topic). On the other hand, while we Avengers fans might generally have a high opinion of the Wasp, it’s doubtful a Wasp series would make a lot of non-Avengers-fans take notice, at least on the basis of the Wasp herself.

OK…but suppose you really would like to have a series that does feature characters like Wolverine, Spider-Man, Captain America, the Thing, the Punisher, the Hulk, and the Silver Surfer working more or less together on a regular basis? One way would be to not make it a team…just a team-up. You know…Marvel All-Star Team-Up, in which two or more characters are thrown together for the duration of an issue or an arc. Almost the same approach would be a non-team like the Defenders—except that the Defenders, despite its informal status, did promote an esprit de corps. So, you might take a Secret Defenders approach (better executed than that series, one would hope), in which an actual team does get forged, just for the duration of a specific mission, only to be taken apart and reassembled. In expert hands, it might work. The strategy of having an ongoing series with short-lived line-ups would also help bring star villains into the team or pseudoteam. A well-written Avengers team almost certainly would not induct Magneto or Doctor Doom, but we can accept that there would be situations in which Avengers members like Cap would accept working alongside such persons on an ad hoc basis.

[The Night Phantom]

dlw66 said:

How's this for a creepy premonition???

Analysis… (or…“Skip this post, folks!”)

Except for Hawkeye and the Hulk, none of those persons had been Avengers at that time. It’s pretty funny that four of the then-non-Avengers (three of them depicted consecutively) are on the current team, the one often derided as the “Not Avengers”. (And a fifth, Daredevil, has been positioned as being so close to membership that you can almost taste it. Well, I suppose he could…  )

Excluding those seven (Hawkeye, the Hulk, Power Man, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Spider-Woman, and Daredevil), we have eight other candidates on that cover (I’m including the Invisible Girl  ). Three of them (the Invisible Girl, Ant-Man, and She-Hulk) have joined (She-Hulk in that very issue).

So, when that issue came out, it depicted 15 candidates: two past Avengers and 13 non-Avengers (if we exclude She-Hulk on the theory that she’s not a member until you get well past the cover  ). Now, only six of the candidates have never been Avengers (and one, Rom, has never been likely, due to licensing issues).

At the time that cover was printed, the team was 19 years old, and 13% of the candidates were already Avengers, rising to 20% as of this issue. Now the team is 43 years old, and 60% have been Avengers (and that’s been true for about one and a half years). For you mathematicians: at this rate of expansion, how long will it be before all the candidates have become Avengers (let’s assume Rom’s legal issues are resolved)?

[Doctor Bong]

May the Brain -Mind Bender NOT be seeing this...!!!
And, come to think of it... You don't suppose... he might have been reading issue #221 before he cooked up his NA...? And yes, I'm aware that the very idea of Bendis actually reading the adventures of the (old) Avengers -as opposed to saying that he did- seems like a 'What If...?" escenario but... what if..., indeed...?

[dlw66]

It IS amazing the similarities between this cover and what we've seen over the past three years in terms of Avengers line-up. I wonder if, under all of that armor, ROM was secretly the Sentry???

[Shiryu]

I voted for the last option, mainly because I think that people who are buying NA only for Spidey and Wolvie need to see what Avengers is really about, even with the same line up as the current one (even though i'd happily drop Cage, Spider Woman and Sentry).
With a different writer, even a line up with Spidey and Logan could work out nicely, hopefully proposing themes like killing vs not killing (Cap and Wolverine), power and responsability (Spidey being in the foremost supergroup should make him feel even more responsable) and so on.

[bobc]

Wow Dlw--that was a great find! And yeah it's a creepy find as well! Since it's obvious that Bendis doesn't know (or care) anything about Avengers history, I'm sure he just picked up this Avengers issue and assumed they were all Avengers and used some of the guys on the cover.

[balok]

This is an excellent suggestion. Perhaps Black Bolt will do us the favor of whispering it right into Bendis' ear.