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Post by bobc on Aug 7, 2006 11:17:02 GMT -5
Dlw66--no offense, but if the stories were exciting and worth reading, I dare say you'd make the time. Routinely.
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 7, 2006 11:23:19 GMT -5
Amen. I do read Justice as soon as I get it, and that is generally true for Ultimates. I am a longtime Legion fan, but I noticed I have a year's backlog sitting in the comic room... Like the 70's relic I am, I live off the Legion Archive Editions. Man, Mike Grell...
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Post by bobc on Aug 7, 2006 11:47:55 GMT -5
We joke around about being relics, but I don't think either one of us is exactly stuck in the 70's. In fact I think if I had to pick an alltime great Avengers storyarch, it's be the late 90's Busiek/Perez Ultron Unlimited series. We also loved the Stern years, the Roy Thomas years--so really, we are all over the place, time-wise. Quality is timeless.
There is a shallowness about Marvel these days--at least in years past Marvel seemed to give a d**n about the characters.
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 7, 2006 11:52:50 GMT -5
We joke around about being relics, but I don't think either one of us is exactly stuck in the 70's. In fact I think if I had to pick an alltime great Avengers storyarch, it's be the late 90's Busiek/Perez Ultron Unlimited series. We also loved the Stern years, the Roy Thomas years--so really, we are all over the place, time-wise. Quality is timeless. There is a shallowness about Marvel these days--at least in years past Marvel seemed to give a d**n about the characters. Bob, You nailed it, for a lot of the comics from marvel it seems to be about the cheap pop or gimmick. Hawkeye is dead, now he is alive, now he is dead, no wait he is alive. Wolverine and SPidey on the Avengers. Avengers:Disassembled, HOM, all cheap gimmick pops. Nothing feels like it has any story anymore.
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Post by bobc on Aug 7, 2006 12:50:38 GMT -5
Exactly. I don't know about you, but after a character dies and comes back say five or six times, I no longer give a ________.
This is mindless.
And what praytell is this garbage about Wanda and Clint having feelings for each other? Hawkeye had a crush on her thirty years ago--but he had a crush on everybody back then. In fact, in comparison to his flings with Mockingbird and Black Widow, Wanda was barely a blip on the radar. BUT DON'T LET THAT STOP YA, BENDIS! Concoct some boring, half-azzed story around this non-issue, chuck full of dreary, self-pitying, droning dialogue! And dont even think about putting any battles in the story or anything--that might send the Bendroids into a panic.
oh yeah--and it'll start getting really good at some point in the distant future, because after all Bendis wrote other books years ago that were good.
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 7, 2006 13:22:23 GMT -5
Exactly. I don't know about you, but after a character dies and comes back say five or six times, I no longer give a ________. This is mindless. And what praytell is this garbage about Wanda and Clint having feelings for each other? Hawkeye had a crush on her thirty years ago--but he had a crush on everybody back then. In fact, in comparison to his flings with Mockingbird and Black Widow, Wanda was barely a blip on the radar. BUT DON'T LET THAT STOP YA, BENDIS! Concoct some boring, half-azzed story around this non-issue, chuck full of dreary, self-pitying, droning dialogue! And dont even think about putting any battles in the story or anything--that might send the Bendroids into a panic. oh yeah--and it'll start getting really good at some point in the distant future, because after all Bendis wrote other books years ago that were good. I understand totally. Here is the sad part, the man has straight up lied, he said he would not be doing the return of Hawkeye, so who is doing the return of Hawkeye, (bendis). Oh wait I know what he is going to claim that Kate Bishop is Hawkeye now and that he is writing the return of Clint Barton. Whatever.... I am tired of the "wait and see" people. I always ask, how long are we supposed to wait, that usually brings about the "your just a hater" or the "well the sales are good" arguement. Same thing ever time. Bendis is a good writer of crime nior, let him stick to that.
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 7, 2006 13:42:22 GMT -5
I wonder if, while ol' Hawk is introspecting, if they'll droop the points of his mask like they did with Cap's wings a while back??
Bob, you are indeed right that quality is timeless.
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Post by bobc on Aug 7, 2006 14:46:20 GMT -5
oh god
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 7, 2006 16:51:18 GMT -5
y' know if quesada was truly so intent on giving mighty avengers a shot, why not try to lure back busiek? sales wise, he's easily comparable to Bendis. his avengers #1 sold about 195 k without need for killing anybody or getting rid of the team. www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1012 oh, that's from 97 some joe is gonna say. well in 1997 you really couldn't order comics online and this was after everybody had been burned by heroes reborn. getting readers to come back after that was a pretty tough sell. and if we look at 1999, Avengers was still selling about 80 k, without a hundred crossover events, so busiek did it without needing sales gimmicks and multiple covers. www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1012fancy that, all he needed was a good story and the characters we've all come to love. did Avengers drop at the end of Busiek's tenure? well yeah, he got stuck with three different artists in the midst of a long storyline and one of them, manuel garcia, had little fan following that I am aware of. so let's recap, busiek has sales over a hundred k for his first few issues of avengers without any gimmicks and keeps them in the 80s without any major crossovers or hot new artists every issue for several years, yet because of two slow years where Johns and Austen really didn't handle the book properly quesada feels perfectly fine in saying the concept no longer works and that bendis' way is the only right way to do the book now. sigh. I do dislike Quesada and Bendis. I don't care if they're not babykillers they're still major douchebags...
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Post by bobc on Aug 7, 2006 17:34:19 GMT -5
Wow--they sold that much without Wolverine and Spiderman and alternate covers?
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 8, 2006 4:30:23 GMT -5
Busiek left Marvel when the Ultimate(s) line was created, he, and rightly so, didn't want to be stuck in the series that kinda got swamped under the new one and all the marketing it'd get.
As far as i'm concerned he just got his spidey-sense tingling about Marvel's new stance and got the hell outta there as fast as he could.
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 8, 2006 8:26:57 GMT -5
Busiek left Marvel when the Ultimate(s) line was created, he, and rightly so, didn't want to be stuck in the series that kinda got swamped under the new one and all the marketing it'd get. As far as i'm concerned he just got his spidey-sense tingling about Marvel's new stance and got the hell outta there as fast as he could. oh I know. However I thought that given Joe Q's recent answer about why Bendis is writing Mighty Avengers, I could show that another writer was also able to move quite a few issues of Avengers without annoying stunts every two months...
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Post by von Bek on Aug 8, 2006 8:39:54 GMT -5
imperiusrex, thanks for the vol. 3 sales links, that pretty much put an end to the "if sells is good" argument.
I don´t think NA is the Ultimates fault, Busiek last storyarc was too long, and the two artists after Alan Davis had some big shoes to fill (to me Alan Davis is in the Perez league), they just werent up to the task. Johns and Austen were again misfires, so it was more like Marvel was deliberated turning the book into the mess that it became at the end of volume 3...
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 8, 2006 9:05:36 GMT -5
No, Busiek left because he wanted to leave.
That's why Marvel had to scramble to find Geoff and then Chuck Austen.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 8, 2006 9:08:04 GMT -5
oh I know. However I thought that given Joe Q's recent answer about why Bendis is writing Mighty Avengers, I could show that another writer was also able to move quite a few issues of Avengers without annoying stunts every two months... The problem is they want stunts every two months. It's what sells. Stunts, sitcom jokes, and wacky members. Then decompression finishes the job by selling trades.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 8, 2006 9:10:30 GMT -5
And in case my word isn't enough:
Kurt Busiek
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Post by von Bek on Aug 8, 2006 9:15:30 GMT -5
I said I didn´t think New Avengers is the Ultimates fault, nor Busiek departure was. Johns and Austen runs were (if sales weren´t still dropping we would have never had NA).
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 8, 2006 9:28:04 GMT -5
I said I didn´t think New Avengers is the Ultimates fault, nor Busiek departure was. Johns and Austen runs were (if sales weren´t still dropping we would have never had NA). I would not blame Johns as much as Austen. To me Austen is the poor mans Bendis. He ignores continuum, he changes the charaterization with out explaination, and he tells poor stories that make no sense, just like Bendis. Now get ready for it here is the big difference, Joe Q has hyped Bendis to the point that in many peoples views the man can do know wrong. However if austen was writing the same story word for word, you could bet your life that everyone would hate it.
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Post by bobc on Aug 8, 2006 9:50:41 GMT -5
I don't understand why people seem to feel that the mainstream Avengers comic is in competition with the Ultimates. I see them as completely different, and the Ultimate reality is not replacing the Marvel universe in any way. Bendis, on the other hand, IS wreaking havoc with the mainstream universe.
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 8, 2006 11:20:45 GMT -5
I don't understand why people seem to feel that the mainstream Avengers comic is in competition with the Ultimates. I see them as completely different, and the Ultimate reality is not replacing the Marvel universe in any way. Bendis, on the other hand, IS wreaking havoc with the mainstream universe. I agree I don't think it should be, what is amusing though is that Ultimates feels more like an avengers comic then NA does.
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Post by bobc on Aug 8, 2006 12:31:46 GMT -5
And that is sad
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 8, 2006 13:12:08 GMT -5
But true.... Look at the teams Ultimates Captain America Scarlet Witch Quicksilver Hawkeye Iron Man Wasp Thor New Avengers Captain America Iron Man Wolverine Spider-man Spider-Woman Luke Cage Sentry Ronin With the first one, you go hey thats an avengers comic. With the second, I think of Secret wars or a large Marvel Team up limited or something, not the Avengers. Oh well, I am starting to realize that do to hype and the need of many readers to be told who is cool, that I am in the minority.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 8, 2006 18:06:54 GMT -5
I said I didn´t think New Avengers is the Ultimates fault, nor Busiek departure was. Johns and Austen runs were (if sales weren´t still dropping we would have never had NA). Sorry, i missred.
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Post by von Bek on Aug 9, 2006 8:25:33 GMT -5
I said I didn´t think New Avengers is the Ultimates fault, nor Busiek departure was. Johns and Austen runs were (if sales weren´t still dropping we would have never had NA). Sorry, i missred. No prob, just wanted to make it clear. And I can´t blame Busiek for leaving, had he stayed maybe some would start thinking he would be the one responsible for New Avengers...
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Post by bobc on Aug 9, 2006 9:25:59 GMT -5
He did some great stories, so maybe it's best that he took off while still on top.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 9, 2006 9:49:23 GMT -5
Continuing in my run of being unpopular on these boards, I just wanted to add that although I feel Bendis is horribly out of place and generally 'bad' for the Avengers.... that doesn't reflect his writing as a whole. He is EXCELLENT on Ultimate Spider-Man, he sticks to brilliant characterization, and tells great stories. On Avengers he does indeed ignore continuity, change the characterization without explanation, but he tells stories with a good PREMISE horribly so that they make no sense As opposed to Austen, who was bad on every book, Bendis is just bad on Avengers.
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Post by bobc on Aug 9, 2006 9:53:31 GMT -5
Doc you are perhaps the most beloved poster of our time.
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 9, 2006 10:52:38 GMT -5
No prob, just wanted to make it clear. And I can´t blame Busiek for leaving, had he stayed maybe some would start thinking he would be the one responsible for New Avengers... ha! hey von bek, are you another refugee from that other Avengers board? I seem to remember you from there... seems there are a couple of us here with the good sense to enjoy the far better discussions here.
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Post by von Bek on Aug 9, 2006 12:48:27 GMT -5
No prob, just wanted to make it clear. And I can´t blame Busiek for leaving, had he stayed maybe some would start thinking he would be the one responsible for New Avengers... ha! hey von bek, are you another refugee from that other Avengers board? I seem to remember you from there... seems there are a couple of us here with the good sense to enjoy the far better discussions here. Yes, I´m the same guy from the other forum and yes the atmosphere here is way better. The difference from this Avengers board to others is like the difference between Jim Shooter and Bendis.
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Post by bobc on Aug 9, 2006 13:28:01 GMT -5
What other board?
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