Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jul 13, 2006 19:28:44 GMT -5
As for not understand what we are complaining about, it just a difference of opinion. It is all subjective. I don't feel Bendis is writing Cap right, I am basing this on 25 years of reading Cap and the Avengers. I believe this qualifies me to give a learned opinion on the matter. You disagree, it is all subjective. I don't think the BENDIS! misscharacterizations are subjective at all. They're very objective, actually. He either characterizes a character as he was created and written for half a century, or he doesn't. Two people can't defend polar oposites and both be right. One is wrong, the other right. It's pretty objective. As for the Dum-Dum issue, once again if you the reader have to make up reasons in your head for things that happen in a book, then that is poor writing. period Exactly. There is no subjectivity here. One set of people is right, one set of people is wrong. Which one is what, is what is open to discussion. Not for long though, as metaphysical evidence piles up every month towards abundance.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 13, 2006 21:59:55 GMT -5
As for not understand what we are complaining about, it just a difference of opinion. It is all subjective. I don't feel Bendis is writing Cap right, I am basing this on 25 years of reading Cap and the Avengers. I believe this qualifies me to give a learned opinion on the matter. You disagree, it is all subjective. I don't think the BENDIS! misscharacterizations are subjective at all. They're very objective, actually. He either characterizes a character as he was created and written for half a century, or he doesn't. Two people can't defend polar oposites and both be right. One is wrong, the other right. It's pretty objective. I really disagree with you here. It's all about opinion. In my opinion, Cap was written well in this issue and was right on the mark. I've already listed my reasons why I feel this way. In others opinion, he wasn't. It is very subjective. ~W~
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 14, 2006 9:20:28 GMT -5
All of you continuity freaks (many of whom are freakier than myself, and I do like my comics told in a nice linear fashion...) should see my review of the Avengers DVD-ROM over in the Classic Avengers section of this board. One nice, neat package for Volumes 1-3 plus all annuals, as well as whatever NA they squeezed in by Dec. 2005. Note -- the DVD-ROM does not include the Giant-Size issues! But anyway, check out that conversation elsewhere...
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Post by Van Plexico on Jul 14, 2006 10:42:28 GMT -5
Glad it arrived!
I've tried viewing it on a 19" regular monitor, a 19" widescreen monitor, and a notebook computer screen. It really depends on how large you set Acrobat to display it. You can zoom in and see things more clearly, but maybe not see the entire page at once.
The 19" widescreen is particularly good for this, because you can see both pages open at once, at a good, readable size, with only a bit cut off the top or bottom.
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Post by bobc on Jul 14, 2006 12:09:57 GMT -5
Oh GOD is it really in Acrobat format? I have this completely irrational hatred of that program.
Anyway W40--you make me feel guilty for dogging Bendis. I just want to say that it's all personal preference and I don't mean for my posts to seem like I'm bashing you because you like Bendis. I like that you are civil and at least you have reasons for liking him.
I really am not a continuity freak. In fact, there are several Avengers storyarchs that are better left forgotten IMO, like, for instance, Wanda having kids with the Vision. Let's be frank here, the Avengers have had some craptastic writers over the years so having to be a slave to every C level plotline isn't very practical.
I feel like NA is just lacking in overall Avengers history. In fact it's clueless.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 14, 2006 15:16:21 GMT -5
You know bobc, speaking of the highs and lows of Avengers history, aren't all books like that? I am pretty fired up to get the FF and Spidey DVD-ROMs after perusing my new Avengers model. I am 100% positive I will not revisit that second spider-clone saga at all!!! The first one with the Jackal? Awesome! The second one? STUPID!!!
So, as I tend to agree with your opinion of Bendis' handling of NA, I just keep thinking "this too shall pass". There's been plenty of bad art along the way, too.
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Post by bobc on Jul 14, 2006 15:20:15 GMT -5
Yeah I guess all books are that way--but I focus on the avengers because that was always my favorite book.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 14, 2006 15:24:20 GMT -5
It has been my favorite through the years, too, which is why it bothers me what has gone on. I have dropped other books and picked them back up later, but Avengers has been a consistent purchase of mine since 1973 or so.
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Post by bobc on Jul 14, 2006 16:18:28 GMT -5
Me too. Haven't missed an issue since #102. Even in the low ebbs
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Post by bobc on Jul 16, 2006 10:58:19 GMT -5
OMIGOD--I went to the comic store yesterday. It's actually a fairly new store (to me), I've only gone a couple of times, so I don't really know the guy who runs it--I'll call him John. Anyway, John is super chatty and he just started yapping me up, and he started asking me what writers I liked. I listed Miller, Moore and some others. Suddenly John chirped "What do you think of Bendis?"
You could feel the air freeze!
I just stared at him for a second, and John didn't waste any time filling in the blank air.
"I really enjoy what he's doing with the Avengers!" John nattered on, "I think he's one of the best Avengers writers ever!! I like the characterization..."
I started looking around for a weapon, then decided prison would be a drag.
"uhhhhh what characterization would that be?" I asked, gritting my teeth so hard they practically became nubs.
"Hawkeye. I really like how he writes Hawkeye."
The air conditioning was on high, but I was about to boil over!
"uhhh wasn't Hawkeye dead within like one or two issues?" I asked, already knowing the answer. Of all the characters to pick for "characterization."
"I liked how Bendis made him really brash," John chirped.
I just couldn't take any more. "I think Bendis is the worst writer ever on the Avengers." And I walked out before anything truly hideous came out of my yap. I was feeling very Tony Soprano.
Do you ever feel like you are living in some parallel dimension where good is bad? The sky is green and the grass is blue? I mean this guy LOVES Bendis because of the "characterization" of a superhero who was KILLED OFF almost immediately! He loves Bendis for it!!
This is like cult behaviour--it's just strange. I don't get it. I think I need post-Bendis-trauma therapy. Maybe I should start popping Prozac like M&M's to deal with the horror.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 16, 2006 19:58:31 GMT -5
Okay, change of subject as far as the Cap being portrayed as a wuss thing (You are right though "The Avengers never should have saved me, I'd still be a hero...blah blah blah"). The thing that really bothered me in this issue was the same thing that has often bothered me in NA. NOTHING NEW HAPPENED! Cap talked to the Falcon and discovered he was on his side. Duh, we've already seen that in Civil War. Cap talked to Hank and discovered that he was firmly siding with Ironman. Duh, we've already seen that in Civil War. Cap fought a bunch of Shield agents who wanted to bring him in. Duh, we've already seen that in Civil War. There was not one bit of information that hadn't already been firmly covered.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 16, 2006 22:37:54 GMT -5
bobc, I am laughing out loud.
You should have back-slapped the fool, though... Just because he needed it...
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Post by cithindril on Jul 16, 2006 23:42:37 GMT -5
Here's a question; let's say this was your very first issue of Avengers (and it was for somebody), reading the inner monologue of Cap's, would you think given what was written that if he could, he would gladly pass this situation off to someone else who might be able to handle the situation? This actually WAS my first issue of Avengers (I just recently began collecting comics again after a 25-or-so year break) and I didn't get that from Cap's inner monologue at all. I saw it as a frustrated individual venting a little steam before continuing to deal with a seemingly impossible situation. As was mentioned above, he never for a moment seriously considered dodging his responsibilities and seemed to meet every challenge head-on for the rest of the issue. I obviously can't speak to continuity and hope Marvel will take the negative feedback to heart and give the long-time fans a series that sticks closer to canon. Having said that, I liked that the author gave us a glimpse of Cap's internal struggle and bitterness over the way things are developing...far from making him seem indecisive and weak, it made him seem more human and believable to me. Just my two cents...happy to be here. ;D
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Post by cithindril on Jul 16, 2006 23:47:22 GMT -5
OMIGOD--I went to the comic store yesterday. It's actually a fairly new store (to me), I've only gone a couple of times, so I don't really know the guy who runs it--I'll call him John. Anyway, John is super chatty and he just started yapping me up, and he started asking me what writers I liked. I listed Miller, Moore and some others. Suddenly John chirped "What do you think of Bendis?" You could feel the air freeze! I just stared at him for a second, and John didn't waste any time filling in the blank air. "I really enjoy what he's doing with the Avengers!" John nattered on, "I think he's one of the best Avengers writers ever!! I like the characterization..." I started looking around for a weapon, then decided prison would be a drag. "uhhhhh what characterization would that be?" I asked, gritting my teeth so hard they practically became nubs. "Hawkeye. I really like how he writes Hawkeye." The air conditioning was on high, but I was about to boil over! "uhhh wasn't Hawkeye dead within like one or two issues?" I asked, already knowing the answer. Of all the characters to pick for "characterization." "I liked how Bendis made him really brash," John chirped. I just couldn't take any more. "I think Bendis is the worst writer ever on the Avengers." And I walked out before anything truly hideous came out of my yap. I was feeling very Tony Soprano. Do you ever feel like you are living in some parallel dimension where good is bad? The sky is green and the grass is blue? I mean this guy LOVES Bendis because of the "characterization" of a superhero who was KILLED OFF almost immediately! He loves Bendis for it!! This is like cult behaviour--it's just strange. I don't get it. I think I need post-Bendis-trauma therapy. Maybe I should start popping Prozac like M&M's to deal with the horror. Man, VERY funny write-up but Holy Crap! If you're ready to smack somebody because they have a different take on the quality of a comic book, then you MIGHT have bigger life issues to tackle than Bendis... I'm just sayin... Anyway, Peace Out! ;D
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Post by bobc on Jul 17, 2006 9:27:09 GMT -5
Cith--I was just being goofy, trying to make people laugh. But you are correct in your assesment that I have a plethora of mental illnesses. I'm 40 years old and I'm writing long, rambling posts about comic books, so we're not talking mental health here. Still, my friends find me quite entertaining in a crackpot kind of way.
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Post by balok on Jul 17, 2006 16:52:14 GMT -5
I certainly hope reading comic books and writing about them past age 40 isn't an indicator of mental illness, for if it is I must hie me to a psychiatrist...
As far as the owner of your comic book store is concerned - there's no accounting for taste.
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 18, 2006 4:18:56 GMT -5
Bob, something tells me you won't go back in that comic shop very soon, will you ? ;D It was a very funny story, and once more shows that tastes are subjective. What we don't like, someone else perhaps does. Hopefully in a not so distant future wheels will turn and we will have once more something we like too
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Post by bobc on Jul 18, 2006 9:20:00 GMT -5
Yeah it is subjective up to a point--but pointing out the dead character as Bendis' best characterization just drove me over the edge. I think the comic store owner might be Loki in human form, testing me. In fact I'm pretty sure he is. I'll go there again next week and report back any evil that I might witness.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 18, 2006 10:32:24 GMT -5
Well don't turn your back on him!!
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 18, 2006 13:37:54 GMT -5
Yeah it is subjective up to a point--but pointing out the dead character as Bendis' best characterization just drove me over the edge. I think the comic store owner might be Loki in human form, testing me. In fact I'm pretty sure he is. I'll go there again next week and report back any evil that I might witness. Oh god I could just see him hitting you with a box full of NA comics and you screaming "not like this". LOL sorry could not resist.
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Post by bobc on Jul 18, 2006 14:02:44 GMT -5
I'm sure next week the comic store owner will rant and rave over all the action packed fight scenes next...
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 18, 2006 14:26:02 GMT -5
I'm sure next week the comic store owner will rant and rave over all the action packed fight scenes next... Just ask him why he likes the charaterization, make him try and explain, that usually shuts up the bendisheads.
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Post by bobc on Jul 18, 2006 16:50:35 GMT -5
I did! He said because Bendis made him "really brash!" But I was so stunned that he picked a dead character, my brain just went dead for a moment. That's when my Tourette Syndrome took over!
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jul 19, 2006 4:29:22 GMT -5
Taste isn't subjective. There's taste, and lack of taste. Tastefullness, and distatefullness. With gradients therein.
A person who enjoys a Comics Book character misscharacterized, isn't a person "with another taste", it's a person bereft of taste, without taste, distasteful.
The "another taste" canard is merely a smokescreen for lack of sensibility and lack of an educated palate.
...Particularly common in the times we live in.
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 19, 2006 7:40:19 GMT -5
I did! He said because Bendis made him "really brash!" But I was so stunned that he picked a dead character, my brain just went dead for a moment. That's when my Tourette Syndrome took over! I usually don't call that an explaination, I mean almost everyone that has wrote Hawkeye has made him brash at one time or another. Actually make him explain in full sentences and watch his head explode.
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Post by bobc on Jul 19, 2006 9:14:05 GMT -5
I'm afraid I can't encourage him to talk more. In fact I may wear a disguise next time I go in, to avoid his crackpot conversation. But he'll probably bray on and on anyway. He's like 50 YO and looks like Santa Claus, only more evil. "John" is one of those guys whose yap is going every minute of the day, kind of like my militant posting. You ought to see me on the True Crime forums, I'm a complete nightmare.
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 19, 2006 9:29:49 GMT -5
I'm afraid I can't encourage him to talk more. In fact I may wear a disguise next time I go in, to avoid his crackpot conversation. But he'll probably bray on and on anyway. He's like 50 YO and looks like Santa Claus, only more evil. "John" is one of those guys whose yap is going every minute of the day, kind of like my militant posting. You ought to see me on the True Crime forums, I'm a complete nightmare. LOL... I am glad that I order my comics online, I don't have to deal with comic owners telling me I am wrong in my opinion, because they say so.
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Post by imperiusrex on Jul 19, 2006 11:53:49 GMT -5
Here's a question; let's say this was your very first issue of Avengers (and it was for somebody), reading the inner monologue of Cap's, would you think given what was written that if he could, he would gladly pass this situation off to someone else who might be able to handle the situation? This actually WAS my first issue of Avengers (I just recently began collecting comics again after a 25-or-so year break) and I didn't get that from Cap's inner monologue at all. I saw it as a frustrated individual venting a little steam before continuing to deal with a seemingly impossible situation. As was mentioned above, he never for a moment seriously considered dodging his responsibilities and seemed to meet every challenge head-on for the rest of the issue. I obviously can't speak to continuity and hope Marvel will take the negative feedback to heart and give the long-time fans a series that sticks closer to canon. Having said that, I liked that the author gave us a glimpse of Cap's internal struggle and bitterness over the way things are developing...far from making him seem indecisive and weak, it made him seem more human and believable to me. Just my two cents...happy to be here. ;D yeah, but I get the impression this wasn't your first exposure to the character nor your first comic ever. Here for example. My first Superman comic was one where he and Lois get married. And then a backup with Jimmy Olsen doing something like going undercover in drag. My first Captain America comic was a Jim Steranko version fighting Hydra for like twenty pages. Guess which book I liked more? Cap as a character was more dynamic, more exciting and more interesting. That issue also captured everything about cap perfectly, whereas the superman issue made the character incredibly mundane. I didn't buy supes for years. Perhaps you, as a returning older reader grasped this characterization a bit more, but if I were a younger reader in my teens, I think I'd find Cap a bit too wishy washy in this issue and probably wouldn't get grabbed by his attitude in this issue.
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Post by bobc on Jul 20, 2006 8:56:43 GMT -5
I think people want to see a dynamic character, however flawed, who gets in there and kicks azz. Captain America should LEAD not sit around talking and doubting. It's a complete disgrace.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 20, 2006 10:46:54 GMT -5
I think Marvel has some characters who, flawed though they might be, should be depicted as leaders: Cap, Reed Richards, and Cyclops. As these men head up Marvel's three major team books, they have always struck me as icons both to their teammates/families, as well as in the world in which they live.
My first Cyclops story was All-New, All-Different #96. I thought one of the best depictions of Cyclops was way back in X-Factor #1 when they got the original team back together. Although that book faltered quickly (shame on you Walter Simonson), it was good at least for 6 months or so to see Cyke back on top of his game.
My first Mr. Fantastic story was FF #148. Taking a look at Reed in the mid-70's, I felt one of the best storylines was when he had to turn some type of ray gun on Franklin to attempt to contain his manifesting mental powers. Although the action led to Franklin being put in a comatose state, it still demonstrated Reed's desire to do what was best -- albeit until he could solve the problem. By the way, that action by Reed led into a good storyline where Sue left him and ended up with Namor.
I was introduced to Captain America in the pages of a Marvel Triple Action that reprinted Avengers #19. Cap... what needs to be said? He's been portrayed as sensitive, yet always idealistic. Although he's gone through periods of doubt in the American gov't, as well as self-doubt, he takes his responsibility seriously. He leads... he doesn't sit around waiting for Dr. Phil to tell hm what he should do. Action first, consequences later.
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