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Post by Black Knight on Jul 10, 2006 7:39:40 GMT -5
So who here has gotten this issue?
If you havn't stop reading now.....
Well once again we have Bendis totally miswrittening captain America turning him into some sort of wuss, who just wants to forget about CW, blah, blah, cryyy.. Sorry not cap at all. Then we have the gangster version of Falcon. Whatever Bendis (perhaps you should read a little about the charaters before you write them).
About the only thing good about this issue was the exchange between Pym and Cap. Even the art was bad...
And the idea that these were going to be done in ones, also was shot in the foot. Same old, same old.
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Post by bobc on Jul 10, 2006 9:03:00 GMT -5
Did they draw droopy little wings on the side of Cap's head, to denote sadness, like they did in the first couple of Bendis issues? I was going through my comics the other day and just happened to come upon the issue with Cap's little sad wings--and I just burst out laughing, looking at them.
Come on guys--this is bordering on camp. I'm beginning to think this is all on purpose, you know, a joke! I can just see Bendis, alone in a darkened apartment, cackling to himself like Loki, thinking "God can you believe the crap I just wrote? I wonder if any of my moonie-like fans will say they love this issue, that it's great? I mean I just can't write any worse than this, but they just won't take the bait! I know--I'm give Captain America a sex change and make him bi-polar so he just hides in a linen closet at the first sign of trouble. And I won't explain any of it--I'll just do it. And I'll make the Wasp an android, who used the body of Millie the Model to form her brain patterns, but it'll take me the next 200 issues to expalin it. Surely then even my most blank-eyed syncophants will lose interest--or will they? Hee hee! Oh goody--this'll be fun!"
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 10, 2006 10:34:42 GMT -5
Did they draw droopy little wings on the side of Cap's head, to denote sadness, like they did in the first couple of Bendis issues? I was going through my comics the other day and just happened to come upon the issue with Cap's little sad wings--and I just burst out laughing, looking at them. Come on guys--this is bordering on camp. I'm beginning to think this is all on purpose, you know, a joke! I can just see Bendis, alone in a darkened apartment, cackling to himself like Loki, thinking "God can you believe the crap I just wrote? I wonder if any of my moonie-like fans will say they love this issue, that it's great? I mean I just can't write any worse than this, but they just won't take the bait! I know--I'm give Captain America a sex change and make him bi-polar so he just hides in a linen closet at the first sign of trouble. And I won't explain any of it--I'll just do it. And I'll make the Wasp an android, who used the body of Millie the Model to form her brain patterns, but it'll take me the next 200 issues to expalin it. Surely then even my most blank-eyed syncophants will lose interest--or will they? Hee hee! Oh goody--this'll be fun!" You know I have oftened wondered that, and then I realized that only a moron would purposely write this bad, and I know that Bendis may be a lot of things, but he is not a moron. This is just another in a long line of NA comics that are said to be amazing by Bendis groupies, with no reasoning behind it.
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Post by bobc on Jul 10, 2006 11:34:56 GMT -5
I think it's abundantly obvious that Bendis doesn't know much about Marvel history. You don't have to be a total slave to continuity, but some coherence would be nice. I really think Captain America should not be messed with--he really is the core of this team. Nobody would suddenly start writing Superman acting like Batman, would they? So why is Captain America acting like a big wuss? The whole point of Captain America is that he might be low-powered, but he overcomes everything, no matter what. The way he crumbled during Disassembled was ridiculous. I mean was the threat from the Scarlet Witch really worse than when Dormammu (sp) started transmuting our entire dimension in the 70's? Was the Scarlet Witch more of a threat than Galactus? The Skrull invasion? A million other threats?
No. Of course she wasn't--and none of those threats even made Cap blink an eye.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 10, 2006 11:47:06 GMT -5
In regard to the comment about Bendis writing badly on purpose: Have any of you wasted your dime on All-Star Batman and Robin? I plunked down my $3 for the first issue and simply COULD NOT BELIEVE the crap Frank Miller had turned out. Fool me once, shame on you -- fool me twice, shame on me! I thought Dark Knight Strikes Again was just an anomaly, that Miller was somehow upset with DC and said, "Here, take this...". But then I saw how out-of-character his latest Batman was and I was just floored. No one in their right mind would have signed their name to that garbage!!
So maybe Bendis is having the last laugh...
You know, not everyone cares for the work Alex Ross and say, Geoff Johns, turns out, but at least those are two guys who have a sense of what came before and feel like they owe a good product to their consumers.
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 10, 2006 11:48:49 GMT -5
I think it's abundantly obvious that Bendis doesn't know much about Marvel history. You don't have to be a total slave to continuity, but some coherence would be nice. I really think Captain America should not be messed with--he really is the core of this team. Nobody would suddenly start writing Superman acting like Batman, would they? So why is Captain America acting like a big wuss? The whole point of Captain America is that he might be low-powered, but he overcomes everything, no matter what. The way he crumbled during Disassembled was ridiculous. I mean was the threat from the Scarlet Witch really worse than when Dormammu (sp) started transmuting our entire dimension in the 70's? Was the Scarlet Witch more of a threat than Galactus? The Skrull invasion? A million other threats? No. Of course she wasn't--and none of those threats even made Cap blink an eye. Exactly, the charaterization has been horrible in NA. Cap is not a big wuss, who can't lead. Spider-Man is not a teenager. Wolverine, does not just sit around and drink milk. The Avengers don't fight ninjas, and they don't stand around while others solve the problems. To bad that is what Bendis has pretty much, with a few exceptions had them doing.
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Post by bobc on Jul 10, 2006 12:52:20 GMT -5
Yeah I remember thinking Dark Knight Returns was one of the best two or three comics ever written--so naturally I bought the next Dark Knight Miller put out (whatever the name of it was--I'm senile) and I was stunned and angry about how bad it was. Just dreadful. I expect a lot from Miller and he used to deliver!
It seems like American pop culture is in one of it's low ebbs right now, down from some of the highs of the mid to late 90's.
No I haven't read the new Batman and Robin stuff. I'll take your word that it's bad
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jul 11, 2006 1:38:15 GMT -5
pretty funny because when i read the first post and saw Cap's a wuss, and Falcon's all gangsta, i wondered the exact same thing...
These characters aren't randomly misscharacterized. They are literaly, accurately, the complete oposite of what they should be.
This literally means that the characterization is the geometrical, diametric, opposite of what it should be, a full 100% wrong.
That's pretty impressive. I don't think if people tried, they could do worse than BENDIS!, he's got quite a special talent there.
It's somewhat offensive, because i remember him telling us fans he was a major Avengers fan, i almost kinda believed it. It is pretty clear, now, that he simply lied to get more sales. Pretty lame. Borderline offensive to us the costumers.
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Post by bobc on Jul 11, 2006 9:10:28 GMT -5
Uhg. Sad. Ultron I remember being really excited by the first issue of NA--it really seemed like it was going to be exciting, an event. I rushed to the comic store every Wednesday! But within three months I was just stunned at what I was reading. I thought maybe Bendis would find a way to make Wolverine work as an Avenger, despite what my gut was saying. Didn't happen.
Yeah I find this whole thing offensive as well. We've been had. I'm just glad I wised up and quit buying it. Thank GOD for the Ultimates--it's about the only thing from Marvel I'm buying anymore.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 11, 2006 15:24:50 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this issue.
I thought it was great getting into Cap's head, showing all of this from his POV.
I don't even know what everyone is complaining about. Characterization seems fine to me. And Cap is definetly not a wuss in this book.
I'm really not surprised everyone else hated it. But aren't you guys being a little prejudice against Bendis? It seems like the guy can't make one mistake without all of you jumping on him.
Once more, this thread is turning into the same old, same old . . .
~W~
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Post by bobc on Jul 11, 2006 18:05:27 GMT -5
Prejudiced against Bendis? Dude I didn't even know who he was when he took this book over. I'd been buying Alias and liked it, and bought a couple of issues of "Powers" and couldn't get into them but that was it. I'd heard Bendis' name around but didn't pay him any mind. So I for one was hardly prejudiced against him.
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Post by imperiusrex on Jul 11, 2006 22:32:04 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this issue. I thought it was great getting into Cap's head, showing all of this from his POV. I don't even know what everyone is complaining about. Characterization seems fine to me. And Cap is definetly not a wuss in this book. I'm really not surprised everyone else hated it. But aren't you guys being a little prejudice against Bendis? It seems like the guy can't make one mistake without all of you jumping on him. Once more, this thread is turning into the same old, same old . . . ~W~ You know what? I'm gonna turn this one back at you. What made this issue so great? Does this Captain America seem like the same Cap who has stood up against Thanos, Death itself, the Red Skull with the cosmic cube? Even when Cap has faced personal crises, he usually doesn't freak out, he finds another way to combat them, such as when he became Nomad and the Captain. perhaps if this were a Bendis book like Powers and this wasn't a character with sixty or so years of history, it might have been fine. But it wasn't Powers, it Captain America and it didn't fit. I'm just saying perhaps the characterization is great if you're a Bendis fan and you expect these sorts of inner monolgues and his thematic conflicts and staccato dialogue (and make no mistake, I see a very distinct formula in his writing-not a criticism, after all writers like Stephen King and Elmore Leonard are also reliant on thematic repeats) and you're pleased by it. but our criticism that this isn't Captain America and we don't get it seems fairly valid to me as someone who has been collecting comics featuring Steve Rogers since 1972. So change my mind, tell me why his Cap characterization is so good in this issue?
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Post by thew40 on Jul 11, 2006 23:53:26 GMT -5
Prejudiced against Bendis? Dude I didn't even know who he was when he took this book over. I'd been buying Alias and liked it, and bought a couple of issues of "Powers" and couldn't get into them but that was it. I'd heard Bendis' name around but didn't pay him any mind. So I for one was hardly prejudiced against him. Hmmmm. I don't think I made it quite clear what I was trying to say. Allow me to rephrase . . . What I mean to say is that it seems like a lot of people on this board (to me) make up their mind about the issue. They take a negative slant on it at all times. Doesn't matter that it might be considered a better issue than previous, it still is not up to a bar a lot of you have raised too high. The fact of the matter is is that Bendis is Bendis. He's not going to be writing like Busiek or Johns or any other previous "Avengers" book. In fact, this book shouldn't even be compared to those previous "Avengers" books because, ultimately, it ISN'T "Avengers." It's "New Avengers." It's not about Ultron or Kang. It's not going to deal with Jan and Hank or Wanda and Vision. Is that a bad thing? For people that are fans of the older stories, yeah, it is. I can understand that. However, it should be apparent by now that this book is widely different from any other previous "Avengers" titles. Everyone seems to expect "New Avengers" to immediately start pulling Ultron or Grim Reaper or some other classic villian out. That's not going to happen. For fans that have been hard-core "Avengers" readers, this book is probably not for you. Yet, people like me, that aren't hard-core "Avengers" fans and that aren't looking for stories that are based on continunity, this is their book. For me, I want to be able to read "Avengers" without having to dig around for back issues. I prefer the streamlined, necessary-facts-only type of storytelling. What sucks is that there isn't a second "Avengers" title that's more greared for fans of "Avengers" history. Because there isn't, it feels as though a lot go into "New Avengers" already knowing you won't like it. It's possible that I'm just reading this all wrong. And I'm also grouping everyone together. If I'm wrong on this, please let me know. And I should note that I hope none of you take anything that I say personally. I know that sometimes on-lines, things can be misread as attacks. This certainly is not. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if there's one thing the Internet is here for, it's arguing one's opinion. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why this was so out of character for Captain America. He's on the run, as established in "Civil War" # 1. Cap is ambushed by some SHIELD agents and royally beats the crap out of them. One of them is Dum-Dum Dungan, who he lets go. He hooks up with Falcon and hides out in one of Nick Fury's old bunkers. They approach Pym about joining the resistance against Registration. Pym turns them down and then confronts Cap. Cap and Falcon are attacked by SHIELD agents, beat them off a bit, then head out. So, at what point does Captain America stop being Captain America? Cap is a man of strategy. He knows when to confront and when to pull out. If him being "wuss" refers to he and Falcon leaving the battle at the end, then there's a logical reason to it. Captain America seeking to gather non-Registration heroes around him. He can't risk being caught yet because there are too many that need his help. Cap's lack of faith in the beginning of the issue steems from being suddenly hunted by his own government. The country that he represents has branded him an outlaw. He feels as though he's been betrayed and the US is betraying its own values. However, I saw this as nothing more than introspection. He has doubts. His allies have betrayed him, his country has turned on him and he's on the run. All he is doing is vaguely wishing that he had never been revived. Think of it as having a really, really bad day and thinking "I wish I had never been born." For me, this issue confirmed for me that Cap is still human beneath the mask. That Steve Rogers has doubts and has moments where he lacks faith and wonders what his life would be like had be not been revived. And let's not forget that as soon as he and Falcon teamed-up, many of those doubts were washed away. Perhaps it was suddenly realizing he wasn't alone in his crusade, but many of the issues he was dealing with before hand are not really mentioned afterwards. He stood defiantly, then, not in front of an enemy, but to a friend and teammate - Hank Pym. This was pure Captain America to me. Granted, I haven't been reading about him nearly as long as you have, but in my eyes, this was the same Captain America that stood up to Thanos and charged head-first into Onslaught and came barreling in to take down Ultron with the other Avengers and battled Kang hand-to-hand. I'm more of an introspective person. I like to get into character's head and see their doubts and understand their actions. Hence, why I loved this issue so much. All this issue did was solidify for me that Cap has doubts and is - at the moment - feeling quite depressed and uncertain with his life and what is happening overall. But now that he has his partner back and has a mission? He's feeling better already. And that's that. I don't expect to change your mind, but I hope that you can understand why I liked this issue so much and why I felt like this is the same Captain America that I've known and read about. ~W~
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 12, 2006 7:03:51 GMT -5
Hmm, I haven't read NA 21 (I'm something like 15 issues behind by now, can't wait to go home and read them all), but W's points seem to make sense. I don't like Bendis' style from the issues I have read so far, and I've said why many times, but sometimes, reading comments on the web (not necessarely here) I do get the impression that another writer, writing the same things, would get away with less blame.
Anyway at the end of the day is all about liking and disliking, and de gustibus not disputandum est. Hopefully we will soon have two Avengers book, a classic one for the hard core fans, and a NA one for those who enjoy what Bendis is writing.
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 12, 2006 7:53:26 GMT -5
Let me sum this up for you really quick.
It is not the fight sences that bother us. It is the inner monoluge that makes Cap seem like he does not want to face the problem, like he is just trying to run and hide in his drawing. That is not Cap. He does not run and hide. Sometimes he retreats, but never runs and hides. Bendis's idea of how Cap would think is so far from the charater that we have seen for the last 40 + years, that it was like reading an alternate universe version.
Also the fact that Bendis had Dum-Dum going on the mission to get cap was so out of charater for Dugan. The dugan that I remember would have quit shield before going after Cap.
I think what Bendis lacks is an understanding of the history of the marvel universe and how the charaters have interacted before he came on board. It seems that he just toss it out in favor of what he thinks he needs to tell the story.
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Post by bobc on Jul 12, 2006 8:42:15 GMT -5
W40--yeah it is a problem. If Bendis were doing something exciting and fresh with the Avengers I'd be all for it. I'm not sure if you've read The Dark Knight Returns, but that to me is a stellar example of a fresh, exciting take on a very old superhero. I could say the same thing about The Ultimates, Ultimate FF, or Miller's Daredevil in the 80's. Or the New X-Men in 1975.
In my mind, these writers were able to turn out new perspectives on the characters, but they built them on a very strong character foundation which existed for decades. To build on a foundation, you have to do your homework. To just prance in and basically destroy the identity of a group I've loved for thirty years is just criminal. It's arrogant too.
I'm no "comicbook intellectual," I think comics should be fun and somewhat light-they are for entertainment. But I do expect the writer to know what the hell he's writing. I'm casting my no ocnfidence vote by no longer purchasing The Avengers.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 12, 2006 10:49:45 GMT -5
Let me sum this up for you really quick. It is not the fight sences that bother us. It is the inner monoluge that makes Cap seem like he does not want to face the problem, like he is just trying to run and hide in his drawing. That is not Cap. He does not run and hide. Sometimes he retreats, but never runs and hides. Bendis's idea of how Cap would think is so far from the charater that we have seen for the last 40 + years, that it was like reading an alternate universe version. Again, I just didn't see it as a "runs and hides" situation. He's on the run, being hunted by his own government and his friends. But he's not hiding. He's staying underground so he can gather other heroes, such as in "Civil War" # 2. I'll concede you this point, but maybe Dum-Dum is looking to stay a part of SHIELD so he can try and presuade Hill into stopping the attacks. Keep your friends close and enemies closer, perhaps. Everyone keeps saying this. Other than Scarlet Witch, where has Bendis actually BALANTLY tossed out continunity? Where has he ever said "nope, this story from 1993 is dumb, so I'm ignoring it?" I'm sure he's squeaked against continunity, but you can't write a book that's geared towards new readers that requires a dozen back issues to understand. ~W~
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Post by bobc on Jul 12, 2006 11:49:46 GMT -5
well I haven't read this book for a while, but one thing I recall from "Disassembled" was Doctor Strange acting like Wanda's chaos magic was a complete surprise when he'd been dealing with her for decades. Totally out of character. Captain America just slumping over and accepting that Hawkeye was dead and acting all pathetic. Let's see, what else. All the Avengers magically deciding to scrap the Avengers concept--why would they do that? They were proud to be Avengers!
Want more?
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 12, 2006 11:56:10 GMT -5
Let me sum this up for you really quick. It is not the fight sences that bother us. It is the inner monoluge that makes Cap seem like he does not want to face the problem, like he is just trying to run and hide in his drawing. That is not Cap. He does not run and hide. Sometimes he retreats, but never runs and hides. Bendis's idea of how Cap would think is so far from the charater that we have seen for the last 40 + years, that it was like reading an alternate universe version. Again, I just didn't see it as a "runs and hides" situation. He's on the run, being hunted by his own government and his friends. But he's not hiding. He's staying underground so he can gather other heroes, such as in "Civil War" # 2. I'll concede you this point, but maybe Dum-Dum is looking to stay a part of SHIELD so he can try and presuade Hill into stopping the attacks. Keep your friends close and enemies closer, perhaps. Everyone keeps saying this. Other than Scarlet Witch, where has Bendis actually BALANTLY tossed out continunity? Where has he ever said "nope, this story from 1993 is dumb, so I'm ignoring it?" I'm sure he's squeaked against continunity, but you can't write a book that's geared towards new readers that requires a dozen back issues to understand. ~W~ Starting at the begining, Cap is trying to run and hide from the problems in his mind, this is not the Cap I have been reading for over 25 years. Also, bob is right, Bendis has been writing cap like he can't make dicisions and has no clue what he is doing. As for Dum-Dum, if you have to make something up to make something fit in a story, that is called poor writing. The whole of Avengers disassembled through out continuum. Then the Xorn thing tossed out continuum in favor of what Bendis wanted. Also, I said Bendis should know the history of the charaters he writes, and how the act, he obviously doesn't. He simple writes them like he sees fit, without any care for how they acted before he got ahold of them.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 12, 2006 13:08:00 GMT -5
I wasn't really counting "Disassembled." "Disassembled" was bad. As much as I loved "House of M" and enjoy "New Avengers," "Disassembled" was a pile of crap that had maybe two good scenes. Maybe.
As for Xorn? Wha? Can you clarify just a bit? That certainly seemed to work to me.
And I still find that Cap was completely in character. I've stated why. I think it's best just to agree to disagree on this point.
~W~
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Post by bobc on Jul 12, 2006 13:33:41 GMT -5
Well I say if you enjoy NA, then good for you! But bashing Bendis is fun for me! He's such an easy target.
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 12, 2006 14:57:08 GMT -5
I wasn't really counting "Disassembled." "Disassembled" was bad. As much as I loved "House of M" and enjoy "New Avengers," "Disassembled" was a pile of crap that had maybe two good scenes. Maybe. As for Xorn? Wha? Can you clarify just a bit? That certainly seemed to work to me. And I still find that Cap was completely in character. I've stated why. I think it's best just to agree to disagree on this point. ~W~ Xorn had already been explained away, it was dealt with and closed, but bendis decided his way was better, so he changed continuum like he always does to fit his idea. It worked for you because you probably don't know anythingabout what happened before. As for House of M, the series should have been like two issues, it would have gotten the same story in it. I have one word for in that comic decompression, a lot of it. I am glad you enjoy NA, but telling us that you don't understand why we don't like it. Is like us telling you we don't understand why you like it. Pointless. Later
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Post by thew40 on Jul 12, 2006 16:50:21 GMT -5
I wasn't really counting "Disassembled." "Disassembled" was bad. As much as I loved "House of M" and enjoy "New Avengers," "Disassembled" was a pile of crap that had maybe two good scenes. Maybe. As for Xorn? Wha? Can you clarify just a bit? That certainly seemed to work to me. And I still find that Cap was completely in character. I've stated why. I think it's best just to agree to disagree on this point. ~W~ Xorn had already been explained away, it was dealt with and closed, but bendis decided his way was better, so he changed continuum like he always does to fit his idea. It worked for you because you probably don't know anythingabout what happened before. Actually, I know a lot about what happened before. I'm a massive X-Men fan, dude. Trust me. It was never really resolved what happened, though there were attempts at explanations. Xorn showing up as the Collective was a clarification, showing at last that Magneto and Xorn are indeed two different people. An idea that came up in "Excalibur" volume 2. "House of M" # 7 also addressed the theory that Wanda could have brought him back to life. In the end, however, we now have proof that Xorn and Magneto are two different people. I still liked it. I understand why you like it, but there are certain things that you complain about that don't make sense to me. Maybe it's the difference between being a hard-core Avengers fan and a moderate one. ~W~
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Post by imperiusrex on Jul 12, 2006 22:13:38 GMT -5
w, I understand where you're coming from. I appreciate your trying to explain your view, but do you come at this as a Bendis fan or an Avengers fan? You see, I take our interest as no different than when James Bond fans bemoan Daniel Craig as a replacement. Those who've watched since Sean Connery are fans of the venerable franchise. We're the same folks who complain when Joel Schumacher creates a campier Batman movie than the 1960 Adam West version and then get rewarded with Christian Bale's grimmer more true to the character and interesting Dark Knight. I could complain about a dozen things, easily. For example, why is Dugan even in field duty in the first place? Why would you send a man who's likely an AARP member after the finest human fighting machine alive? It boils down to this; given the decades of cap's history would he wallow in self doubt and pity in any way when there are lives on the line? when action is called for and is necessary? I would say that Cap is decidely a character who often questions his role and I don't think that's the problem here. The simple point is, action is what's needed right this moment and Cap is doodling. Here's a question; let's say this was your very first issue of Avengers (and it was for somebody), reading the inner monologue of Cap's, would you think given what was written that if he could, he would gladly pass this situation off to someone else who might be able to handle the situation? If you think so, that honestly seems completely off target in what this character has embodied to me for decades and if so, then his reactions seem off target and the way the issue unfolds all seem to not be in touch with what Cap is. I remember the old Avengers Annual where Spidey has to free the Avengers after dealing with Thanos and his minions and questions whether he's the right guy for the job and is ready to run and then realizes he's got to do it. That seemed in character to me because Spidey often questions his heavyweight status, he's often felt trapped by duty and is relatively young. cap's unwavering devotion to duty and the American dream even at the expense of his own happiness has been a hallmark of the character. he's a soldier. a compassionate and thoughtful soldier, but with an intense sense of duty. I just don't feel bendis gets that. but thanks for sharing your thoughts on the events in the title. I hope we can all participate in good discussions about the book even if we have polar opposite viewpoints.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 12, 2006 23:19:57 GMT -5
I'll give you karma for thoroughly explaining your POV. w, I understand where you're coming from. I appreciate your trying to explain your view, but do you come at this as a Bendis fan or an Avengers fan? Both, kinda. I read all of the Busiek run of Avegners and most of Johns' stuff. When I heard that Bendis was going to be on "Avengers," I decided to check it out. I was far from happy with "Disassembled," but I was curious about "New Avengers" to start picking it up on a regular basis. Joel Schumacher did "Batman?" Surely, you jest. ;D I vaguely remember something Batman-like coming out in 1997, but I believe I blocked it out. Seriously, though . . . comparing Joel Schumacher to Bendis? I'm betting if Bendis read that, he'd be quite insulted. I kid, I kid. A good point, and one I'll definetly concede. However, it isn't outside the realm of possibility that Dugan was leading the team to maybe try and talk Cap down and just plain didn't have the chance? I don't see it as doodling. I see it as clearing his head. Pulling himself away from the problems he's dealing with. It's not like he spent all issue sitting in front of his drawing tablet, thinking "what should I draw today?" He was trying to figure out what his next move was going to be. Trying to resolve the problems that's cropped up around him. That's how I saw it, at least. No, I don't. Again, I just didn't see like that. He questions that duty in this issue, yes. However, what happens? He picks up his shield and is throwing himself back into the fray. He even finds the fake IDs and passports, which could give him the chance to run away from the conflict at hand. What does he do? Leaves them right where there without even a second thought, and heads right into action. That to me, is Captain America. The whole drawing/clearing the head scene was nothing more than just a little downtime for Cap. Indeed. It's nice to have an intelligent conversation on-line for once. ~W~
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 13, 2006 7:10:16 GMT -5
Hmm, the conversation was very close to becoming an argument somewhere in the middle of the topic. Make sure you all don't get too carried with the pro / vs Bendis thing and respect the other's POV, after all an Avengers (or even NA) story should be time for relaxetion and fun, not for getting upset.
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 13, 2006 7:57:27 GMT -5
Xorn had already been explained away, it was dealt with and closed, but bendis decided his way was better, so he changed continuum like he always does to fit his idea. It worked for you because you probably don't know anythingabout what happened before. Actually, I know a lot about what happened before. I'm a massive X-Men fan, dude. Trust me. It was never really resolved what happened, though there were attempts at explanations. Xorn showing up as the Collective was a clarification, showing at last that Magneto and Xorn are indeed two different people. An idea that came up in "Excalibur" volume 2. "House of M" # 7 also addressed the theory that Wanda could have brought him back to life. In the end, however, we now have proof that Xorn and Magneto are two different people. I still liked it. I understand why you like it, but there are certain things that you complain about that don't make sense to me. Maybe it's the difference between being a hard-core Avengers fan and a moderate one. ~W~ Xorn and Magneto being two different people was shown some time back. Xorn was impersonating magneto. That was told to us some time ago. Sorry in my opinion bendis just opened a fresh wound and poured salt into it, after it had already healed. We can agree to disagree on it. Glad you liked HOM, you are one of the few people that I have meant that did not feel the series could have been done better in two issues, and that there was a lot of wasted space. As for not understand what we are complaining about, it just a difference of opinion. It is all subjective. I don't feel Bendis is writing Cap right, I am basing this on 25 years of reading Cap and the Avengers. I believe this qualifies me to give a learned opinion on the matter. You disagree, it is all subjective. As for the Dum-Dum issue, once again if you the reader have to make up reasons in your head for things that happen in a book, then that is poor writing. period
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Post by bobc on Jul 13, 2006 9:10:00 GMT -5
I feel happy and fluffy
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Post by imperiusrex on Jul 13, 2006 14:43:15 GMT -5
A couple of quick things; Grandpa Dum Dum snuck up on Cap? what's next, keith richards kicks Jet Li's butt? Second I don't think bendis ignores continuity; I think he disregards past events (like Immortus' involvement in wanda's mental state) or misinterprets them. However it's not his fault anyway. marvel and their editors are paid to maintain their continuity. they are in charge of safekeeping the long term viability of the product. if a writer chooses to change it with marvel's permission, that's not the writer's fault... However I also find little things funny like the whole impetus of his first Avengers arc was they don't take care of their own, like wanda's instability. so have they gotten a clean bill of mental health on sentry yet? he's only thor level powerful with a documented history of mental illness...most courts would find sending a certifiably mentally ill person into battle to be fairly negligent. and of dozens of previous members, not one like quasar or justice (who both became superheroes because of cap) wanted to join the team? other things that just made no sense? electro able to destroy the adamantium raft with electricity? I've seen Thor rain down enough lightning on ultron to power a large city for two years without a scratch, yet Electro blows up the entire raft with just the power for NYC? C'est impossible!! needing to recruit some young girl who daredevil knows to find out about the hand...hmm if only there was a past member who was a superspy, one of the best in the world, with extensive martial arts training, knew the hand and had fought the silver samurai before. viper, too. or does the black widow no longer exist? marvel does confuse me at times. I saw some blonde pam anderson clone in ads for the black widow costume a few years back...maybe natasha did hang 'em up. cap telling hank that he doesn't know the difference between superheroics and wartime battle? didn't kang take over the earth with his armies not too long ago? You ask me, if a thirtieth century warlord comes to town with his armies and takes over the planet and I fight to free it, I know what it's like to fight in a war. seems silly and evident of a disdain for superheroes that bendis speaking through cap would disregard that kind of experience. these are some of the little things that have left me off enjoying the title. bendis' storytelling not being my cup of tea is not even worth more than a passing mention as that's just opinion. the important thing though for marvel and new avengers fans is this is the team bendis wanted to write. he's comfortable with the title as it stands.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 13, 2006 15:43:17 GMT -5
A couple of quick things; Grandpa Dum Dum snuck up on Cap? what's next, keith richards kicks Jet Li's butt? Heheheh. I think I'll agree with you in that Dum-Dum shouldn't have been there. But since it's in the comic and has happened, I'm just looking for a way to rationalize it. You make a lot of good points, really. 1) The Sentry problem. I agree with it to an extent, but it could be argued that the New Avengers were trying to prevent Sentry from becoming the next Wanda by taking him, and making sure he gets treated for his problems. Recognizing the problems before they becoming diasters, I guess. 2) Black Widow would have been too obvious to send. They would have been waiting for her. And Viper was the villain of the arc, if I recall. Echo/Ronin was the most logical to send over there. Plus, I don't think we know the full story of Echo quite yet. However, considering that that arc was centered around the Clan Yoshinda, why wasn't Wolverine there? That bothered the living crap outta me . . . 3) Blonde Black Widow was in the first arc. She was the one that Sauron burned up. 4) I'll concede to you the point regarding wartime fighting. 5) Was the Raft adamantium? I don't quite rember that. That's a heck of a lot of adamantium, if it was. And I thought the use of Electro was great. Really made him a bad-ass to me after years of just being "another Spider-Man villain." You made a lot of great points. I think that's what it boils down to, in many ways. Just storytelling style. Trust me, sometimes I get frustrated with this book, but that's a universal thing. Sometimes I get frustrated with X-Men too, and I LOVE X-Men. Shiryu: I would say, actually, that this is one of the best debates I've had on-line. Great points to back up opinions and no name calling! Yay! ~W~
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