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Post by dlw66 on May 16, 2006 8:30:18 GMT -5
Yes, Killing Joke was by Moore and Brian Bolland, and of course Dark Knight was by Frank Miller and Klaus Janson (and don't anyone confuse the recent Dark Knight with the 1980's original -- I can't believe it was by the same person!!).
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Post by Shiryu on May 17, 2006 9:13:12 GMT -5
Uhm, cleaning needed here (and in the DVD / Movies topic, and in the Ms Marvel topic).
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Spider-Man
Great Lakes Avenger
With Great Power There Must Come Great Responsibility
Posts: 36
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Post by Spider-Man on May 17, 2006 20:18:32 GMT -5
The fact of the matter is: this isn't the same old Avengers. Disagree or agree, that is a fact. I just wish there was someone else here, on this board, that liked it as much as I do.
Well, I'm not sure if I enjoy the book as much as you, but I do, in fact, enjoy the book, however, lots of times I agree with points made by the guys hating this book. Like the continuity prob and some continuity issues. However, I don't have a prob with Cap forming this team....because at the end of disassembled it seemed as though the other Avengers didn't want to be Avengers anymore. Also, because these characters aren't exactly strangers to Cap. Sure, they aren't former Avengers, but with the exception of Ronin and Sentry, Cap has had working relationships with all the others. And Ronin was only put on the team cause Daredevil vouched for her and Sentry's there for the team to kinda watch out for him.......
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Spider-Man
Great Lakes Avenger
With Great Power There Must Come Great Responsibility
Posts: 36
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Post by Spider-Man on May 17, 2006 20:47:05 GMT -5
Exactly, I also discovered that a lot (not all) of the 15-25 year range, where coming on board for one or more of these reasons. Spider-Man, Wolverine or Bendis. All of them are current the "cool" thing in comics. When they are gone so are some of the fair weather fans.
But answer me this, what about any person coming onto any team book because their favorite character is in the lineup? I'm a Spider-Man fan, but not because he's the "cool" thing right now. I've been into comics for going on probably 16 years now (if you count the comics I got before getting into Marvel or DC, mainly the TMNT series based on the old cartoon published by Archie. Say what you wikll about Archie Comics, but from like the 40's and up, that series was seriously well done). But Spidey was the first comic from the big 2 I actually got into. I liked him for some qualities I share with him (hiding behind a joke is probably the main thing), and have followed him nearly ever since (there was a time when I temporarily quit Marvel Comics, which meant Spidey too. Only lasted like a year). So, naturally, when Spidey has a stint on the Avengers, I won't miss it. Not because he's the "cool" thing, but because I have tons INVESTED in him. Any fan of a character would most likely do the same thing....
Now in all fairness NA has had some good points. The Annual was decent, although the total ommishen of Peter and MJ have a miscarrage bothered me, and some of the dialogue was well once again childish. Still the action scense where great, and Bendis actually did a done in one, and did it well.
Yes, that seriously got to me. MJ and Peter would not have acted in such a way, no matter how much time has past, but I also find it a bit hard to believe that right after the miscarraiage, and Peter took the webs back up, after Ben died, he'd be as quippy as he was. True, before that, Peter hadn't been quipping loads and they wanted to bring back his quippyness, which was a good idea, however, the circumstances surrounding Peter retaking the webs would have made Peter more depressed than he was right before he gave up the webs. I think, probably, Marvel may want to forget about the miscarraiage....this could be why they're cancelling Spider-Girl.....she was what the baby would have been and a constant reminder....it sucks but....nothing to be done.....
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Spider-Man
Great Lakes Avenger
With Great Power There Must Come Great Responsibility
Posts: 36
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Post by Spider-Man on May 17, 2006 20:59:54 GMT -5
she saw her children in the Avengers/JLA crossover, which apparently is in continuity, and coped with it fairly well all things considered).
It's supposedly in DC continuity, only cause Busiek tried wedging it into that continuity, however, Marvel would not consider it in continuity and preobably DC won't anymore either........
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Spider-Man
Great Lakes Avenger
With Great Power There Must Come Great Responsibility
Posts: 36
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Post by Spider-Man on May 17, 2006 21:49:01 GMT -5
Bendis killed off White Tiger in DD, not sure what issue, and then replaced him with a female version.
I'm a bit confused...when you say White Tiger, I think of the character from the short lived Heroes for Hire book that started shortly after the Onslaught affair...and that White Tiger was female....was from Wundagore Mt. There was a different White Tiger?
Where not, the problem is we are overwhelmed by the sheer number of Wolverine and Spider-Man fans who will buy anything that those charaters are in, and the amazing number of people who will read anything Bendis writes not matter how bad it is.
again, why putting down those fans? those are not the only fans who keep this book afloat. i think Bendis is very hit and miss, and is certainly overhyped. I over all like USM, but there are several things I hate. him killing Gwen just because he didn't know what to do with her evemn though he coulda easily explored Flash's attraction to her......or what happened with Carnage....or the relationship between the Torch and Spidey (he took the fun from that friendship). I don't read NA for Bendis, however, or Wolverine. I may read NA for Spider-Man, though, but I've also read a good portion of Busiek's run as well as some of Johns (I think his stuff was kinda bad and I'm a fan of Geoff's DC work) and Spidey didn't play any role in that. Please, refrain from making such snide comments about people who like certain characters. And by the way, Wolvy fans shouldn't count since he's not really in the book...lol
You´re right about that, I too would hope that Wolverine/Spider-Man quit the team as soon as possible. Hopefully, at least one of them. Perhaps during/after Civil War. I see no other purpose for both characters being in Avengers than selling more books,
Maybe that's why those 2 characters are there and I don't see any other reason for Wolvy being there, however, Spider-Man DESERVES his spot on the team. He's saved the world as many times as Cap has, and Spidey's done the deed most of the time solo, while Cap's had his team. Spidey's fought the Silver Surfer, the Fantastic Four, the New Warriors and several others and came out on top. Sure, there's the loner excuse, but for this excuse to work you have to ignore the WHYS of him being a loner. He's forced into the role by being an outcast. Would you not think the character of Peter Parker, the nerd tormented in school (the press), would want to be excepted by the popular kids (the Avengers)?
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 18, 2006 0:59:24 GMT -5
Sure, there's the loner excuse, but for this excuse to work you have to ignore the WHYS of him being a loner. He's forced into the role by being an outcast. Would you not think the character of Peter Parker, the nerd tormented in school (the press), would want to be excepted by the popular kids (the Avengers)? I imagine you mean “accepted”; Peter was excepted from the popular cliques! Here are some of the whys of Spidey’s being a loner: he’s unusually bright, he’s got a paranoid streak, he’s obsessive about personal responsibility, he’s an iconoclast, and he’s got a bit of a temper—traits that don’t necessarily facilitate team cohesion. Alas, the desire to fit in is not a sufficient condition for fitting in.
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Post by Black Knight on May 18, 2006 8:10:14 GMT -5
wow there is a lot to address here. Lets see, first if you are buying Avengers just for Spidey, then you are one of the people the marketing ploy of including him on the team worked on. I am not saying it is a bad thing, it simple just is. You seem to want to by anything that Spidey is in good or bad, and Marvel was counting on people like you to buy NA.
Also the female in H4H was not the White Tiger, she actually was a white tiger. The White Tiger got his/her powers from an amulet, Bendis killed off the Male White Tiger in DD, and the amulet passed down to a female version.
Also I am guessing, correct me if I am wrong, that you are between 25 and 30. Therefore you fall into what I refer to as the crap shoot range, meaning that the ratio of like/dislike of NA is pretty much 50/50. Obviously you like it because spidey is there, and that is cool.
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 18, 2006 21:06:30 GMT -5
Let's say Marvel kept this current line-up for the next 2-3 years, but Bendis left after "New Avengers Disassembled." Who would you want to take his place? Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek both have exclusives with DC at the moment, so you can't chose them. I was just thinking how much I enjoyed the classic-style fun of the Busiek–Larsen Defenders revival of 2001–2002. I could see Erik Larsen writing and drawing (New) Avengers, at least for a little while.
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Post by dlw66 on May 19, 2006 8:10:08 GMT -5
The Erik Larsen of Spider-Man and Savage Dragon?? Sorry, but if he got close to the Avengers I'd just puke. He is on a par with JR JR, Milgrom, etc. in the art department.
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Post by von Bek on May 19, 2006 8:40:29 GMT -5
I don´t hate Erik Larsen´s art that much, but his writing... that makes me puke.
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Post by dlw66 on May 19, 2006 8:47:50 GMT -5
In fairness, I don't think I've ever read a book he's written. But man, I can't take his art. He typifies the "Image movement" of the 90's -- exaggerated musclature, extreme facial expressions, etc. Only Liefeld could be worse....
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Post by Black Knight on May 19, 2006 9:24:01 GMT -5
Actually I don't mind Larson's writing, not my favorite stuff, however his art is just horrible.
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 19, 2006 17:52:24 GMT -5
Wow, you’d think I’d said, “Bring back Chuck Austen!” ;D In fairness, I don't think I've ever read a book he's written. But man, I can't take his art. He typifies the "Image movement" of the 90's -- exaggerated musclature, extreme facial expressions, etc. Only Liefeld could be worse.... I believe most of Larsen’s writing has been illustrated by Larsen himself, and so that would explain your...inexperience with his heavily ’70s-influenced plotting. As for his penciling and inking...when Image was founded, I saw little distinction between him and most of his cohorts in that venture. And I’d say his artwork of that era sported much immaturity. (However, I would not take a superhero artist to task strictly for exaggerated musculature; it’s a staple of the genre. But within the context of the genre, certainly there are artists who over-exaggerate.) I much prefer the Larsen of today, who is whom I was proposing. Of course, my fellow Avengers aficionados are free to dislike his work, but I enjoy the cleaner lines of his current output and appreciate the stylistic experimentations. For instance, the latest issue of Savage Dragon, the double-sized #125, has a nicely Silver-Ageish Kirbyesque-looking story (“The Wish”) starring extradimensional Mister Glum, plus another story (“The Fly”) that tries the repeating-panel trick (admittedly, I have mixed feelings about the result, but I like that he explores the idea). He’s also been experimenting with hand-lettering; he’s off to an entirely legible but literally shaky start, and I think he’s sensible enough to switch back to computer lettering or a pro hand-letterer if he doesn’t show great improvement soon. (Remember: I was not proposing him as a New Avengers letterer...) And certainly Liefeld (whose work I despise) would not be the only artist who is worse. Have we so soon forgotten Avengers vol. 2? (Liefeld was not the only guilty party on pencils there...)
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 19, 2006 18:59:40 GMT -5
One thing I failed to note about this issue: I think it was the first issue where Sentry actually participated in battle with the Avengers. After being on the covers since #1. Wow. (I was really hoping he'd never actually participate as a team member-- that would have been hilarious to look back on, years from now...) ;D When I was researching my votes for the Jarvis Awards ( vote, people!), I was reminded that the Sentry did participate in the Avengers–Thunderbolts battle in New Thunderbolts #13–14. Still, it would have been an interestingly distinct honor(?) if the Sentry had ended up spending a considerable stint as a member of the group without ever battling alongside his teammates.
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Post by bobc on May 21, 2006 16:06:39 GMT -5
Is issue 19 ever gonna come out? I need something to pregnant dog about.
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Post by bobc on May 21, 2006 16:08:03 GMT -5
OMIGOD somebody changed my post, taking out the b word! That's kind of funny!
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Post by spiderwasp on May 21, 2006 16:48:36 GMT -5
OMIGOD somebody changed my post, taking out the b word! That's kind of funny! Oh, I was wondering what you were talking about. They could have have at least changed it to complain. Pregnant dog really doesn't work as a verb.
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What did Spidey recognize
Guest
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Post by What did Spidey recognize on May 21, 2006 17:42:23 GMT -5
Who cares - is it Korvac or...the Beyonder?
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 21, 2006 18:29:36 GMT -5
OMIGOD somebody changed my post, taking out the b word! That's kind of funny! Automatic censorship’s a bitch sometimes. (It wasn’t done by a person.) Who cares - is it Korvac or...the Beyonder? Neither—I think it’s just some Alaskan postal worker who ended up the recipient of all the mutant powers that were “lost” at the end of House of M.
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Post by dlw66 on May 21, 2006 20:16:05 GMT -5
Just go ahead and try to converse about the famous artist of the Legion and the All-New, All-Different X-Men, Mr. Dave Cockrum!!!!
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Post by dlw66 on May 21, 2006 20:16:49 GMT -5
See what I mean?? Yeah, like I typed "thingyrum". Sorry, but I don't usually refer to it as a "thingy"...
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Post by Dave Paty on May 21, 2006 20:21:05 GMT -5
Oh....you mean like Angelina Jolie in the thingypit, like...
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 21, 2006 20:41:36 GMT -5
Just go ahead and try to converse about the famous artist of the Legion and the All-New, All-Different X-Men, Mr. Dave thingyrum!!!! Cockrum. I know a Unicode trick or two... ;D
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Post by dlw66 on May 23, 2006 12:25:24 GMT -5
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Post by Black Knight on May 23, 2006 13:25:52 GMT -5
Of course it is selling well, Marvel put Wolverine, Spider-Man and there person hyped machine Bendis on the comic. It is gimmicked to sell, not to be of good quality.
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Post by Yellowjacket on May 26, 2006 8:18:29 GMT -5
One other question, not NA related.
I´m surprised seeing Moon Knight #1 on place 6. Isn´t this an astonishing high number for this kind of a book?
And what does the asterisk mean?
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Post by Shiryu on May 26, 2006 9:03:19 GMT -5
What an interesting list. It's a real head to head between Marvel and DC, with NA, Spidey and Moon Knight ( ) in very high positions.
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