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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Jun 19, 2015 13:59:34 GMT -5
Hey! Newsarama just posted an article with the title "The 10 Worst Avengers". I was curious to find out if we agree with the writer of the article´s selections.
Who are the 10 worst avengers, assemblers?
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 20, 2015 0:41:32 GMT -5
Hey! Newsarama just posted an article with the title "The 10 Worst Avengers". I was curious to find out if we agree with the writer of the article´s selections. Who are the 10 worst avengers, assemblers? This is now a tricky question. If I go pre-Bendis, I can make a pretty good list with good arguments though I would have to give it a little bit of thought. If I go post-Bendis, I can't narrow it down to 10 and the ones on the pre-Bendis list won't even be included. |
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 20, 2015 6:59:55 GMT -5
Hey! Newsarama just posted an article with the title "The 10 Worst Avengers". I was curious to find out if we agree with the writer of the article´s selections. Who are the 10 worst avengers, assemblers? This is now a tricky question. If I go pre-Bendis, I can make a pretty good list with good arguments though I would have to give it a little bit of thought. If I go post-Bendis, I can't narrow it down to 10 and the ones on the pre-Bendis list won't even be included. Hunh. I just checked out the article, and it's clearly an oft-used retread that gets updated every so often. Although this update doesn't get any more current than Sentry (who comes in at #3). Other than that, it sticks pretty much the realm of members that most folks here still think of as the "real" Avengers (pre-Bendis). Not incredibly well written-- just an off-the-cuff opinion list w/out much justification of said opinions. One interesting trend in the comments section was HOW MANY folks stuck up for Sentry! Looks like he has a surprisingly vocal fan base out there somewhere! HB |
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 21, 2015 20:27:11 GMT -5
I take offense with #5, Starfox. Handled improperly, his power can come off being cheesy, but under Stern's penmanship, I think Eros proved his worth and value to the team (although, yes, I am biased since Eros was a member of my 'first' Avengers team but still).
As for the rest, Stingray is a prime example of Geoff Johns' philosophy of every character having worth under the right circumstances and writer. I would agree with Rage and Gilgamesh. I liked Silverclaw myself, better than Triathlon. I've never understood the Sentry, his circumstances, his existence, his purpose, none of it. Even when Remender brought him back as a Horseman in Uncanny Avengers, he made little sense to me. Deathcry, I've never read of in the title, so I can't say one way or the other.
My personal worst list starts with Wolverine. I still see no reason for his being a member beyond financial concerns and the sole reason for him being brought onto the team goes against everything the team ever stood for.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 22, 2015 7:10:09 GMT -5
I take offense with #5, Starfox. Handled improperly, his power can come off being cheesy, but under Stern's penmanship, I think Eros proved his worth and value to the team (although, yes, I am biased since Eros was a member of my 'first' Avengers team but still). As for the rest, Stingray is a prime example of Geoff Johns' philosophy of every character having worth under the right circumstances and writer. I would agree with Rage and Gilgamesh. I liked Silverclaw myself, better than Triathlon. I've never understood the Sentry, his circumstances, his existence, his purpose, none of it. Even when Remender brought him back as a Horseman in Uncanny Avengers, he made little sense to me. Deathcry, I've never read of in the title, so I can't say one way or the other. My personal worst list starts with Wolverine. I still see no reason for his being a member beyond financial concerns and the sole reason for him being brought onto the team goes against everything the team ever stood for. Ha-- and I imagine our very own on-Board Starfox has a major problem with that choice as well! And, with a painfully shallow like this the label "Worst Avengers" is completely inappropriate if it's lumped with "Forgettable, Ineffective, Aborted Avengers". You gotta cull those failure-to-launches from the herd before doing any analysis, y'know? The fact that Gilgamesh was also referred to as "The Forgotten One" from the beginning is impossibly hilarious as an unintended self-fulfilling prophecy. Rage-- I'm still fine with him, just wish he hadn't been so inanely presented with a) a STUPID codename and b) a STUPID costume, NEITHER of which remotely reflected the truly cool, interesting kid that was underneath both of them. It was like two different writers came up with the look/name and the origin. Aaaaaand then subsequent writers paid no attention to the character regardless. No, I'm with Marvel Boy-- before reading his post I muttered the word "Wolverine" out loud. Absolutely the Worst Avenger Ever. Heck, I'd take Mantis again before Wolvie. . . HB |
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 22, 2015 18:06:21 GMT -5
Yes, Starfox, Stingray, these are legit members....I even have no problem with Silverclaw, and never liked Dr Druid, but he served his purpose.
Newsarama....the name says it all, they're like the FOX news of comic book media. They're opinion is just BS, IMHO.
If ANYONE is doubting Starfox's legitimacy, check out the RAGE OF ULTRON GN. His best representation yet, IMO.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 23, 2015 22:55:22 GMT -5
I'm with you on the whole Wolverine thing. His membership was a slap in the face to everything the Avengers had stood for previously. My absolute least favorite, however, has to be Sentry. I just couldn't accept anything about him. Deathcry had some potential as a character but just never came together. As far as Gilgamesh is concerned, I almost felt sorry for him. What chance do you have when you are the forgotten one from the start? He came at a horrible time, with a ridiculous line up. Everything was stacked against him and, well, he was pretty lame too. Also, even though I love Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman, they just didn't work as Avengers. Sometimes, it's hard to separate how I feel about the character from how I feel about them as Avengers and this case, the difference is huge. On the flip side, I was never a fan of Dr. Druid, Moondragon, or US Agent but I got where they fit into the team. Same goes for Mantis and I didn't find her as annoying rereading the books a year or so ago as I did when I was a kid initially reading the books in the 70s. I agree with HB regarding Rage. I liked the character, in theory, but they made some huge mistakes. The overkill on his attitude was as bad as his costume. Perhaps the most ridiculous was the aforementioned Moira Brandon but Masque and Magdalene are pretty up there. I also like the Guardians of the Galaxy but never understood why they were considered Avengers. Finally, I may be in the extreme minority here but I thought Lionheart actually had great potential. The one story she was in wasn't very well written but I found myself caring about her and her kids despite it.
I'm going to detour slightly here. There are several characters that I think worked very well as Avengers but never really got their chance to shine. I loved them in their brief appearances and thought they would have been awesome if ever given a chance in a regular line up. Among these are Hell-cat (A personal favorite), Stingray, Jocasta, Yellowjacket (Rita DeMara),Darkhawk, Sandman (Still irks me that they reversed the great character development that had occurred there),the original Human Torch, and the Thing (He fit in with the WC Avengers so much better than Reed and Sue with the EC.) Not sure how I feel about the Two Gun Kid. His membership was interesting and I would liked to have seen more but I'm not really sure there was much more they could do.
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 25, 2015 14:43:39 GMT -5
the Thing (He fit in with the WC Avengers so much better than Reed and Sue with the EC.) I agree. I thought Reed and Sue as East Coast members was very lame, the best part of that time being the great covers! The Thing joining the Wackos was cool: He was far away from NYC and the FF, and it was kind of his answer to the She-Hulk taking his spot on the FF. I have always liked his interactions with Hawkeye, too. The orange and purple just looks cool, ha-ha! spiderwasp, I don't know if you've checked out the AVENGERS MAGAZINE (I started a thread), but it has an updated roster chart. The last few years have added some real turds, they make RAGE, DR DRUID, and DEATHCRY look like charter members, ha-ha! |
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 25, 2015 18:39:39 GMT -5
spiderwasp, I don't know if you've checked out the AVENGERS MAGAZINE (I started a thread), but it has an updated roster chart. The last few years have added some real turds, they make RAGE, DR DRUID, and DEATHCRY look like charter members, ha-ha! Yes. I have the magazine. IMO, once you flip the page after Lionheart, 95% of what's there doesn't exist. I refuse to even acknowledge it, only exceptions being Luke Cage and Young Avengers which I'm actually okay with. There are several there that I can imagine making great Avengers but I'd given up and stopped reading by the time Valykrie, Dr. Strange, Iron Fist, and so forth joined. Did Nova ever even join? I know he was on the cover of Secret Avengers 1 and appeared briefly inside but never really did anything. Cannonball and Sunspot are a cool idea but, even though I tried a couple of issues of that book, it was a mess. Havok and Rogue were fine in their Uncanny Avengers appearances and the book was okay but it never felt like the Avengers to me. Actually, nothing has felt like the Avengers to me since Disassembled. I still consider that to be the end of the Avengers and will never forgive Bendis for it. |
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 26, 2015 17:03:48 GMT -5
Yes. I have the magazine. IMO, once you flip the page after Lionheart, 95% of what's there doesn't exist. I refuse to even acknowledge it, only exceptions being Luke Cage and Young Avengers which I'm actually okay with. There are several there that I can imagine making great Avengers but I'd given up and stopped reading by the time Valykrie, Dr. Strange, Iron Fist, and so forth joined. Did Nova ever even join? I know he was on the cover of Secret Avengers 1 and appeared briefly inside but never really did anything. Cannonball and Sunspot are a cool idea but, even though I tried a couple of issues of that book, it was a mess. Havok and Rogue were fine in their Uncanny Avengers appearances and the book was okay but it never felt like the Avengers to me. Actually, nothing has felt like the Avengers to me since Disassembled. I still consider that to be the end of the Avengers and will never forgive Bendis for it. In a sort of abstract way I knew that time's been passing, but--- Sweet Fancy Moses, we're now at the 10-year mark since Bendis (& Greater Corporate Marvel) effectively destroyed our Universe in a way that Hembeck could only dream of. Ten years. Man. Really, we ARE the old fogeys at this point, pining away for how things usedta be. I don't think we're wrong, mind you-- but we're definitely not the voice of the masses, I'm pretty sure. . . Rats- HB |
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 27, 2015 14:19:04 GMT -5
Yes, HB, we're definitely the old fogeys of comicbook-dom.....
I spend rainy days digging through long boxes at my LCS (thankful they still HAVE longboxes and cheap prices!), but I'm the only one.
The shop is packed, though, customers playing card games, board games (?), D&D-looking RPGs with tiny figurines (?)...
I REALLY don't know what they're doing, but they're having fun with friends and SPENDING MONEY on this hobby, WAAAAY more than they are on comic books, as far as I know. It seems like the comic books are just a background to the store. There's an AIR FORCE base close by, I imagine the military guys still like to read on their downtime, maybe.
I've often considered opening a comic book shop in my area, which has none close-by, but I'm sooooo out of touch with these games (Magick? Hero-clix? Don't these guys play video games? ha-ha) and I feel that is where the real money is, that the actual comics don't really bring that much $ in. And the great numbers of recent issues that fill the longboxes are proof that the hype Marvel and DC generate for their paper comics are not producing the sales numbers. Again, this is another topic I'm ignorant of. I don't care what comic sells the best, which movie generated the most $ last weekend....the numbers never affected whether I thought a movie or comic was quality or not.
And HB, I actually thought about picking up the new Hembeck comic book with a bunch of old reprints of his Marvel stuff....until I saw the $7.99 price! I'll stick to my trusty Hembeck Archive Omnibus!
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 28, 2015 8:51:07 GMT -5
Oh yeah, SF, the whole Magic the thing is still huge with the younger generation-- it kind of replaced the D&D craze from our era, I think. HBSon and several of his buddies have REEEALLY taken to it over the past year or so-- but honestly, it's just about a 20-year-old phenomenon of its own, and I daresay its flash of fast-buck lucrativeness may be on the wane. It's definitely been the salvation of lots of comic/collectible shops, since the baseball/sports card boom seemed to evaporate almost overnight. That & HeroClix & DragonBall Z and Pokemon etc, etc do have the advantage of being actual, interactive gaming experiences (beyond the simple acquisition of collectible "thingies") which is what likely has contributed to their longevity. I totally get it.
Although I myself honestly find them tedious and self-referential beyond any shred of bearability. . .
(The one exception being HeroScape, which proved a delightful and years-long activity and passion for HBSon & I. Sadly, though, it never caught fire in popularity enough to be the kind of sure-fire cash-cow that could be relied on to generate tournament attendance and such.)
There's a small-ish shop in Timonium, MD that I believe Wundagorborn and I have in common, and in one of my visits I was forced to leave empty-handed, 'cause nearly all of the longbox back-issue inventory on the sales floor was being used as table-tops for a Magic (Magik? Majick?) tourney. I was peeved for a few minutes, until it occurred to me that from a retail perspective, all of that square-footage was generating FAAAR more revenue for those few hours of tournament than it would have just sitting there as (likely) completely idle, non-moving inventory.
HB
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Post by ultron69 on Aug 25, 2015 13:34:18 GMT -5
I'm with Starfoxxx on not knowing what it is in the comic shop that the young people are paying attention to. I go there strictly to look for inexpensive (primarily) Bronze Age back issues, and the occasional TPB.
The one character that would have made my top ten (bottom ten?) is Tigra. She seemed pretty useless to me, and I never bought into her shtick. I also agree that Starfox doesn't belong on the list, I kinda liked his time with the Avengers, but he seems to be the butt of easy jokes, probably because of his pleasure stimulating power. I'm not too familiar with most of the really lousy Avengers, because I stopped collecting comics at that point, and what I've seen since comic back doesn't make me want to pick up too many Avengers issues from the past 25 years, but Sentry does seem like a lousy invention (I especially hate the "he was really here all along bit. By the way, didn't Quesada say "now we have our own Superman" when he was introduced?) and I didn't mind Rage, but I've only got a small number of his earlier appearances, and I' sure that HB's criticisms are spot on. Wolverine is clearly a money grab. Having him in the Avenges is just stupid. Well, it's made Marvel a lot of money, so maybe stupid isn't the right word. Stupid like a fox, I guess.
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 25, 2015 15:36:27 GMT -5
Greedy Like a Pig might be a more apt description.
Or perhaps in a way, Intemperant as a Barfly. . .
I would be wonderfully interested in seeing a team that might be called The Mishandled Avengers. . . composed of folks that had a pretty interesting backstory or circumstance, but then lost their writer or their plotline or editorial interest or support or whatever. This is easy for me, maybe, 'cause there were several abandoned characters that I rather liked that other folks truly did not. How would the following work as a legitimate team of Avengers?:
RAGE
JACK OF HEARTS
LIONHEART
(ooo-- how cute if they were to become Sweethearts, eh?)
SANDMAN (back as a reformed criminal again)
JOCASTA
Jim Hammond-- the ORIGINAL HUMAN TORCH
(hmm-- him & Jocasta??)
and. . .
CENTURY (from Force Works)
That's off the top of my head, annnnnnnnnnnd. . . wow. . . I LOVE this team!
Jim Hammond would likely be the team leader, yes? With his deep wealth of Invaders experience?
That's a whole bunch of seriously damaged, personally-struggling individuals, though. Elvin (Rage) might be the least traumatized of the whole, uhm, actually-human gang.
(Wow, and this group would be RICH in "What is Human? Who is Human?" story potential, too. Maybe-- maybe I'm gonna have to start bein' a writer at some point, here. . . )
HB
addendum: Actually, upon further reflection, I think Jocasta might be the better choice as team leader. She has many of Jan's best qualities, of course, and has a fairly long history with the team-- albeit on the periphery. Rage was probably an active member longer than any of the others--- but he's still basically a kid in comparison. . .
(I fully recognize that this is me largely musing aloud. . . pay no undue attention. . . )
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Post by ultron69 on Aug 26, 2015 12:43:43 GMT -5
I've never heard Intemperant as a Barfly, but I like it!
I definitely agree with you on Rage, Jocasta and Jack of Hearts being mishandled characters with potential. I've never heard of Century or Lionheart, and I'm on the fence about Sandman and the Human Torch. I agree that the Human Torch is the natural choice, perhaps the only choice, as leader. I see your point about Jocasta, but she seemed to much the shrinking violet to be a leader. I think they'd need somebody more vocal and forceful than she.
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Post by spiderwasp on Aug 26, 2015 21:28:27 GMT -5
RAGE JACK OF HEARTS LIONHEART (ooo-- how cute if they were to become Sweethearts, eh?) SANDMAN (back as a reformed criminal again) JOCASTA Jim Hammond-- the ORIGINAL HUMAN TORCH (hmm-- him & Jocasta??) and. . . CENTURY (from Force Works) Okay, all I would do is replace Century with Hell-cat and I'm all over this book. As I've said before, I love the character and thought she was great in the Defenders. She wasn't so much mishandled in the Avengers as just never given a chance. Not letting her join initially made sense since she needed more training but then, once she got the training, she was just forgotten. Century, on the other hand held absolutely no appeal for me. Maybe not as bad as Sentry but close. |
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 27, 2015 9:18:49 GMT -5
Hellcat's a good addition. I kept thinking of Tigra, and that somehow blinded me to Patsy's existence.
I just looked up Century to refresh my memory on him, aaaaaaand he's truly a product of the stupid excesses of the 90's. He's all kewl "stuff" w/out there being a particularly compelling person underneath. . . or that's the impression I get from the Marvel Wiki. I didn't realize he's actually another artificial being, like Jocasta and Jim Hammond, but his multiple powers and abilities are so over-the-top that it makes him inaccessible. My initial impression of him was that he was simply a very, very old amnesiac alien-- and that was an angle (the aged hero/warrior) that I found compelling.
Okay, okay-- we can bring him in as an associate, I suppose. Sort of like Black Widow was in the mid-60's, yeah?
HB
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Post by ultron69 on Aug 27, 2015 9:41:56 GMT -5
I'm definitely on board with Hellcat! She was a member in some of the first back issues I started collecting, very shortly after discovering my LCS (I started collecting Avengers at the newsstand with #161) and was a character I really enjoyed, even more so when she was with the Defenders.
Since we're talking about characters who weren't properly used in the Avengers, I'd add Patsy's good buddy Hank McCoy. He mostly cracked jokes nonstop while with the Avengers, was usually the first one knocked out in a fight, and even didn't get a chance to show his brilliance. I remember an issue where a few of the other Avengers big brains are working on some problem (I believe Hank Pym, Black Panther were there, and maybe one or two other big brains) and they ignored Mr. McCoy, who wound up walking dejectedly out of the room. His friendship with Wonder Man was the most memorable part of his Avengers run.
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Post by bobc on Aug 28, 2015 10:55:24 GMT -5
I remember that issue, Ultron69. Tony Stark was there too and they were all discussing Simon William's physical state and Beast was about to say something and T'Challa cut him off. Hank said something like "I was about to say that," but then he just took off.
In this instance I'd agree that Hank wasn't allowed to shine in the brains department, but I think that was right in line with the character development at the time where Hank felt intimidated by the other Avengers. I liked this angle and if you look back at those years, Hank was probably the most complex character in the Avengers, in terms of personality. Even though he was insecure, he retained his sense of humor, and embraced his furriness (thank GOD they did that instead of making him a maudlin bore). Hank and Wonder Man, I'm told by several friends who worked at Marvel at the time, were by far the most popular Avengers with hardcore Avengers fans.
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 28, 2015 12:48:29 GMT -5
I remember that issue, Ultron69. Tony Stark was there too and they were all discussing Simon William's physical state and Beast was about to say something and T'Challa cut him off. Hank said something like "I was about to say that," but then he just took off. In this instance I'd agree that Hank wasn't allowed to shine in the brains department, but I think that was right in line with the character development at the time where Hank felt intimidated by the other Avengers. I liked this angle and if you look back at those years, Hank was probably the most complex character in the Avengers, in terms of personality. Even though he was insecure, he retained his sense of humor, and embraced his furriness (thank GOD they did that instead of making him a maudlin bore). Hank and Wonder Man, I'm told by several friends who worked at Marvel at the time, were by far the most popular Avengers with hardcore Avengers fans. Yep, yep. I definitely share Ultron's view that Hank, as a contributing superhero, was awfully under-utilized during his tenure with the group. But he very, very often makes it onto fans' lists of Favorite Avengers-- and indeed he's one of mine. He doesn't have that quality of being forgotten about, or lost in the shuffle-- he had a lasting impact on the team. Soooooo, I'm gonna submit that his success disqualifies him from this particular squad. He'd end up being a "ringer". Hmmm-- unless HE came in as team-leader. Sort of like Hawkeye w/ the Thunderbolts. . . HB |
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Post by starfoxxx on Aug 29, 2015 17:48:06 GMT -5
Concerning BEAST....
As a big-time BEAST fan, and an Avengers who started reading comics in the early 80s, I always saw Hank as a scene stealer.
Same with Hawkeye. Hey, I count the David Letterman issue as one of my favorites!
One of my favorite Beast moments is the cover of Avengers #167!
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Post by ultron69 on Sept 1, 2015 8:38:27 GMT -5
Oh, I count the Beast as one of my all time favorite Avengers, too, but it seemed to me that he didn't really contribute much as a superhero, though he did of course have a lasting impression in other ways, especially to us fans.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Sept 3, 2015 10:18:52 GMT -5
Strange, growing up, my only real memory of the Beast's time with the group didn't even happen in the book. It occurred in the Dark Phoenix Saga, when Hank, on monitor duty, sees the police call about the X-Men's fight at the Hellfire Club. He decides to assist his old teammates, wiping the call from the Avengers' computers records.
Since then, I've read various appearances of his on the team, quite liked his friendship with Simon. I found the general public's reactions to him as an Avenger intriguing though. Bouncing across the streets, most of the public seemed enthused to see him (one kid, I think, called him a 'Blue Wookie'). So either Claremont's mutant hysteria wasn't as widespread or being an Avenger outweighs that, maybe.
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Post by ultron69 on Sept 14, 2015 8:37:05 GMT -5
Yes, I found it interesting how Hank was beloved, and even had groupies, as an Avenger. Rest assured, if he'd been a member of Claremont's X-Men, those groupies would have had pitchforks and torches instead.
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Post by bobc on Sept 30, 2015 12:11:14 GMT -5
Who is Lionheart? Never heard of it
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Post by starfoxxx on Sept 30, 2015 16:14:32 GMT -5
Who is Lionheart? Never heard of it A female, British Avenger (?) with an EXTREMELY short career....she helped/joined the team at the end of the 2nd volume's run, I'm guessing @ #80..... just lump her in with Rage, or any other Avenger that hardly made an impact (except for their own story/origin) and then disappeared. |
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Post by humanbelly on Sept 30, 2015 21:29:56 GMT -5
Who is Lionheart? Never heard of it A female, British Avenger (?) with an EXTREMELY short career....she helped/joined the team at the end of the 2nd volume's run, I'm guessing @ #80..... just lump her in with Rage, or any other Avenger that hardly made an impact (except for their own story/origin) and then disappeared. Well, except the writer clearly had a pretty solid plan for developing her and her odd situation (she was saddled with a STUPID personal/family-life dilemma that wasn't going to hold up for a single issue of close scrutiny-- but it really was just a window-dressing plot device, easily jettisoned), and there were lots of effective little hooks set up to let her develop organically. But like everything else, it was deemed expendable and rendered completely moot in one issue by the utter Universe-ruination we refer to as DisAssembled and then Civil War. Kelsey was her name, right? "This. . . could work-!"-- I thought at the time. . . I mean, how'd you like to be the writer who put the work and thought into crafting this character over the course of several months. . . and then having the editor in chief (or whomever) tell you that your work isn't as important or valuable as what this OTHER writer wants to do. . . HB |
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