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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Apr 11, 2015 16:25:02 GMT -5
Inquiring minds need to know....
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 12, 2015 17:44:44 GMT -5
Inquiring minds need to know.... . . . Hmmm. . . how 'bout Mighty Mouse--? Boy, goin' with the back-to-our-roots, old-school fanboy type of conversation-igniter, aren'tcha there, Doc? This is a good one, though, since it's really been established since the late Silver Age that the Hulk himself is indeed officially stronger than Ben (the final letters-page pronouncement on the matter was that, pound-for-pound, Benjy & Greenskin were equal-- but the Hulk simply had quite a few more pounds to his advantage, PLUS he had the whole angrier/stronger thing workin' for him). Y'know, I was going to go with Ben, under the assumption that if the same proportionate equation held true for He and Jennifer, then he'd had have the advantage-- with Ben being shorter, but certainly bulkier. Buuut my curiosity was piqued, so I took side-trip over to the Marvel Wiki, and even those dubious "official" power/skill rankings give Jen a slight advantage. AND-- she is indeed the larger person of the two! Ben is "officially" 6' tall (which I like, and it makes me nuts when artists draw him as a towering behemoth), and weighs 500 lbs. Jen is 6'-7" tall (She was already 5'-10" in her human form!), and tips the scales at 650! So there's clearly not much of a platform for a Ben-is-stronger argument, I'd say. And while I LOVE the idea that She-Hulk may well be in the extreme upper echelons of strongest-mortals-- I feel like Ben maybe should never have been eclipsed as much as he has been over the years. He was, after all, the original Marvel Heavyweight Strongman Tank character, and simply hasn't had the benefit of perpetual power-inflation as much as other folks have (with the exception of when he became Armor Thing, perhaps--) HB |
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Apr 12, 2015 19:00:24 GMT -5
I remember he repeated many times during that period of his life that he had become as strong as the Hulk. Interestingly, during that time the Hulk had become grey and wasn´t as strong as when he was green.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 13, 2015 7:55:27 GMT -5
I remember he repeated many times during that period of his life that he had become as strong as the Hulk. Interestingly, during that time the Hulk had become grey and wasn´t as strong as when he was green. Wellllllll, but how would Ben know, really? Even back then, some of the Hulk's prodigious feats of strength and survival over the years would seem to have been beyond what the upgraded Armor-Thing could have achieved or endured. (Surviving at the heart of a nuclear explosion; falling unprotected all the way to Earth from orbit; lifting entire castles/fortresses, and so on.) But of course, those things are awfully tricky to quantify-- and any direct strength trials Reed may have been able to run (say 'way back, circa HULK #122) would have been with a calm, Banner-controlled Hulk. Still, I imagine there could have been data on file that said "Hulk can bench-press x-amount of tons", and Ben could certainly use that as a basis for comparison. Y'know, I really did like the strength-boost of Armor-Thing, but I hated his complicated, messy, cluttered, spike-ified look. And it was further confused by the fact that Sharon Ventura was then a practically indistinguishable version of Ben's traditional form. 10-year-old HBSon at the time, though, thought it was the coolest look ever-- so who am I to judge? HB |
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Apr 13, 2015 13:39:17 GMT -5
And Crystal was there, too! My favorite FF replacement ever.
It was interesting seeing Ben in the role of "boss". I remember enjoying this period of the FF. My only complaint was that it was too brief.
Hmm... perhaps all the butt-kicking ol´ Jadejaws had handed him through the years had made Ben something of an expert on the subject of the Hulk´s strength...?
I remember... I think it might have been during the course of the "Infinity War" affair, at a gathering of heroes, Drax the Destroyer hitting Ben real hard on the head and the Hulk taking exception to this, saying that the only one who was allowed to do that to Ben was himself. I thought it was funny.
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Post by starfoxxx on Apr 13, 2015 14:20:42 GMT -5
While it's great to see some activity on the boards, I have to point to Amazing Spider-man Annual #15 (1981). There's a strength chart to answer everybody's "who's stronger?" questions! www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/amazing_spider-man_annual_15.shtml....because everyone knows, the REAL Marvel Universe ended around the Contest of Champions/Secret Wars 1 era!!!! "Who's stronger?" questions always remind me of Howard Stern asking the UnderDog Lady if Superman could beat UnderDog in a fight!!!!! Her loyalty to UnderDog is total! It's ridiculous, but a lot of fun! |
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 13, 2015 16:04:11 GMT -5
Ahhh-hahahahaaa, S-Fox! Even before I clicked on the link I knew that was the special feature you were takin' us to! Somewhere in years past we've discussed it on this very board, even, right? And heck, I remember that when this ranking chart first came out it had a grace period of about 15 minutes before fans started tossing impassioned bricks at it-- heh. It's surely a fun conversation-starter-- but it seems like it HAS to have been done on a complete whim without any depth of editorial oversight (or heck-- much research-!) with the assumption that it was just inconsequential filler for the Annual. It's just-- it's clearly wrong! Even given when it was published!
She-Hulk was still in her early torn-white-dress phase. . . but was obviously stronger than, say, Valkyrie or Luke Cage (and probably Spidey); Werewolf by Night & the Beast at the same level? Beast should go up at LEAST one level, and WWBN down to the bottom level (Jack's furry alter ego could in fact be physically beaten by a non-powered individual-- it's just his opponents tended to freak out when they realized he wasn't wearing a costume. . . ). Black Bolt that high-- really? Ben is surely a super-heavyweight. Iron Man (sorry folks) simply doesn't operate at the top level, regardless of his occasional spikes into that realm.
Hoo-boy. . .
Underdog would drive Supes nuts with his incessant rhyming couplets, and then force a Kryptonite Energy Vitamin Pill down his throat at an opportune moment. But would then rescue him with a punch to the breadbasket that would up-chuck the thing back out-- and they would then become fast friends. . . ! (Ooo! And go on double-dates with Lois Lane and Polly Purebred!)
HB
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Post by bobc on Apr 14, 2015 8:45:16 GMT -5
Underdog Lady!!! I love her!!! Is she still around?
Listen--with all the chaos and confusion going on at Marvel over the past decade or so, it's hard to answer any question about any character. But if we are talking about back in the day when there was cohesion and you could actually tell what was what, I would say that the Thing and She Hulk were about even in the strength department. I say this because SH is a female version of the male Hulk, and thus had pretty much 80% or so of the Hulk's strength (the approximate difference in human male vs female strength). That being said, it has been established that SH does get stronger when she is angry, so who knows what her upper limits are? I will say I liked SH being in the FF--she was one of the few replacements I actually liked over the years.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Apr 19, 2015 9:29:29 GMT -5
Oooh, a character strength chart!
(and a Spidey Annual with a story by O'Neill with art by Miller and Janson?! I'm gonna have to track down a copy of this book)
Why is Cap listed amongst the bottom? I wouldn't consider him to have superhuman strength per se but I would think the serum would've given him the extreme upper limit of human strength, so for me, he's far stronger than everyone else in that grouping.
No, Colossus is far stronger than Spidey. And GR has superhuman strength?
The addition of Sasquatch is interesting although immersed in water, I would consider Namor to be the strongest of that grouping.
And no, Iron Man doesn't belong at the top (sorry Tony).
To answer the OP, my first instinct is Jen, the gamma radiation gives her an advantage alongside her body proportions. Although I seem to remember reading something about how gamma radiation affected people differently which is why different abilities are created (ala the Leader) but I could be mistaken. So does anger affect Jen's strength levels? I don't recall ever seeing her as angry as Bruce.
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Apr 20, 2015 15:28:09 GMT -5
How about this:
1)Hulk
2)Thor (no belt and gloves or in berserker mode), Hercules, Gilgamesh & Wonder Man
3)Sub-Mariner (properly hidrated)
4)She-Hulk
5)Thing, Colossus & Iron Man (without external energy sources)
Does it sound approximately right...?
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 20, 2015 20:05:27 GMT -5
How about this: 1)Hulk 2)Thor (no belt and gloves or in berserker mode), Hercules, Gilgamesh & Wonder Man 3)Sub-Mariner (properly hidrated) 4)She-Hulk 5)Thing, Colossus & Iron Man (without external energy sources) Does it sound approximately right...? Oh, I love this stuff, I do-! I'd maybe quibble and split gamma-infused hairs just a bit futher: 1) Hulk: I love the fact that the entire MU eventually threw in the towel and said, yes, okay-- Hulk is the Strongest One There IS! Everyone else can just arm-wrestle for the Silver Trophy at this point. 2) Thor: And I'm going to put him there by himself. Herc in particular is very, very close--- but Thor is ALL-superbeing, whereas Herc is half-mortal. And I'm not sure Thor would have gone down as badly as Herc in ACTS OF VENGEANCE. (Also, Herc can be rather more an idiot than the Son of Odin-- a definite liability.) 3) Hercules, Wonder Man, (Gilgamesh I can't begin to evaluate), and Subby: I'd put these guys smack at the same level. I have never, ever, though, been able to figure out why exactly Namor should be as flippin' mighty as he is. Hybrid or mutant or whatever-- how in the world could his DNA come up with this level of power?? And where the heck did th' ankle wings come from??? 4) Yep, She-Hulk: NOT FAR behind the fellas above her, though. 5) Thing: Also able to keep up with the couple of levels above him in a motivated pinch; along with Iron Man. 6) Colussus: I haven't kept track of him in years-- but I don't see him taking down Ben or Tony, all things being equal. Say, here's a geeky fanboy query: We have the great established frenemy rivalry between Namor and Herc. . . but has there ever been any examination of Namor vs Thor? Have they ever fought? Or teamed-up? Seems to me like Thor would not put up w/ Namor's imperial attitude for very long at all. . . HB |
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Post by bobc on Apr 21, 2015 8:17:28 GMT -5
I agree with HB on this one, almost down to the letter. That being said, I believe Colossus could possibly take down the Thing, but probably not Iron Man, since Iron Man has so many toys.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Apr 26, 2015 9:19:04 GMT -5
Say, here's a geeky fanboy query: We have the great established frenemy rivalry between Namor and Herc. . . but has there ever been any examination of Namor vs Thor? Have they ever fought? Or teamed-up? Seems to me like Thor would not put up w/ Namor's imperial attitude for very long at all. . . HB That's a good question. The only instance that comes to mind is they teamed-up in Thor Vol. 2 #4 by Jurgens and Romita Jr. It was rather an epic battle to save NYC from a leviathan creature summoned by Sedna, the Sea Spirit. (An odd role reversal for Namor, for sure)  I have a question about Cap's strength though. I came across a recent explanation that the Super-Soldier serum jumped Steve up to peak human strength. But Steve has to continually exercise and workout to maintain that level. For some reason, I'd always assumed that the serum maintained him at that strength level regardless. However it appears to be that the serum only allowed Steve to cheat to get to that level and it's up to him to stay at that level. Does that make sense to anyone here? |
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Post by bobc on Apr 27, 2015 14:56:01 GMT -5
Captain America is considered "peak human" level. He can lift about 850 lbs. The super soldier serum not only takes him to the pinnacle of human strength, it also gives him nearly superhuman stamina. He works out to hone his fighting skills. Different writers have said he doesn't have any powers but that isn't exactly true.
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Post by starfoxxx on Apr 27, 2015 16:18:30 GMT -5
Captain America is considered "peak human" level. He can lift about 850 lbs. The super soldier serum not only takes him to the pinnacle of human strength, it also gives him nearly superhuman stamina. He works out to hone his fighting skills. Different writers have said he doesn't have any powers but that isn't exactly true. Yes, bobc...I remember Cap as the pinnacle of human fitness/strength/stamina, and the super-serum makes him unable to age or get sick. But that (apparently) has changed, or the serum has been removed from Steve's body, at present. And Underdog Lady still lives in New Jersey, there's a documentary (I haven't seen) about her released in 2006...she suffers from Asperger's. |
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 28, 2015 8:01:22 GMT -5
850 lbs-?? Is that right?
Wait, wait-- howit's being lifted makes rather a huge difference. (Bobc, this is totally up your alley, yes?) A dead-lift, say-- yep, I completely buy it--- the world record is considerably higher, in fact. Bench press? I'm betting that's what the number's referencing-- it looks like the 600 to 800 pound range (w/out special shirts or something) would have been the likely "peak" number back when super-hero strength levels were being hashed out-- in a more detail/continuity-oriented era. Now, what folks commonly think of as "weight-lifting"-- a military-style press (straight up overhead)-- that's kind of where 850 pounds really would make the jump from "peak of human potential" to outright "Superstrength" (whatever that might mean, exactly). Us humans, we're just not built to lift that much weight up over our heads, y'know? Too many breakpoints/hinge-points between the weight and the ground.
Hey, quick fact-check question: Is it or was it the S-soldier Formula that kept Cap young, or was it that formula that Nick Fury & Dum-Dum and a few other WWII-Era SHIELD types took? Methuselah Serum-- something like that? Or is one derivative of the other?
HB (How can I be this Geeky about a character that I've never collected regularly??)
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Post by bobc on Apr 29, 2015 15:56:27 GMT -5
Hi HB--Marvel, years ago, said that these max weights were bench presses, but today they define it as how much weight the character can lift over his head while standing. Both Captain America and the Black Panther are considered peak human, but both characters have been shown to do certain feats that suggest they are both stronger than that. CA has been shown to kick his way through a solid metal escape hatch, for instance. BP has been shown bulldogging a one ton Rhino, snapping its neck. BP recently got a power upgrade and is considered super human, but so far no one knows by how much.
Re: Super soldier serum and aging. I don't recall (from the 70's-90's) it ever being said that the serum stopped CA from aging. Over time, however, it seems writers decided that it didn't make sense that a character from WW2 could still be physically viable all these decades later, so the serum was the answer to that question. And yes, Foxxy, today CA has been stripped of the serum (why, I don't recall) and is now an elderly man.
I personally think the super soldier serum made Cap super powered, if for no other reason than it increased his endurance far beyond what your average human can claim. He can fight for hrs at maximum performance levels before fatigue sets in. And don't forget that back in the 70's, CA had acquired "limited super strength" although I don't recall how he got it. He had this strength boost when he fought the Sub-Mariner during the Defenders/Avengers war. Later writers took the super strength away.
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Post by Marvel Boy on May 3, 2015 9:33:40 GMT -5
Captain America is considered "peak human" level. He can lift about 850 lbs. The super soldier serum not only takes him to the pinnacle of human strength, it also gives him nearly superhuman stamina. He works out to hone his fighting skills. Different writers have said he doesn't have any powers but that isn't exactly true. So, in essence, the serum keeps him at that strength level regardless of any exercise he may undertake? Some of the explanations that I read elsewhere would suggest that, given the circumstances, it's possible that on a certain day, BP or DD may be stronger than Cap but the next day, after working out, Cap may edge out everyone else. It sounds fanciful to me, I would think the serum's purpose would be to constantly maintain the subject at peak human levels, regardless of extra exercise or intent. Like you mentioned, Steve works out to hone his fighting skills. But any regimen he would use to increase muscle mass or increase strength would be useless since he's already at the upper limit, right? @hb, Nick Fury and others used the Infinity Formula to stall aging. Though I can't recall if it's a derivative of the S-serum or not. |
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Post by bobc on May 5, 2015 14:09:38 GMT -5
I think it's about who the writer is. Marvel isn't exactly known for being consistent. The official Marvel line is that the serum makes CA "as strong as a human can become without being considered super human." He's been shown to work out doing curls with two 500 lb plates on the bar, while complaining he didn't have any "special powers like the rest of the Avengers"--but I'm pretty sure no normal humans do curls with 1,000 lbs. Soooo if the serum keeps him at that strength level there's no point in working out with weights, or so you'd think. I can see honing his acrobatics and agility, but not strength.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on May 8, 2015 8:51:42 GMT -5
I've always gone with OHotMU on this as its from a time when Marvels's founding traditions were still alive and this was combined with strong editorial control and great attention to continuity. After Shooter went there was pretty much immediate power creep with everyone souping up their book's resident strong guy (except for the Hulk, who, as was observed earlier, went grey and actually became weaker for a while).
Anyway, the deluxe edition has the Thing a bit stronger than She-Hulk. In the original edition he was a lot stronger but I favour the deluxe interpretation as I think she was a less established character when the 1st edition of the MU was published. By the second edition she'd become a member of both The Avengers and the Fantastic Four.
My general feeling is that the 'savage' version of she-Hulk who is subject to uncontrollable rages would be like the Hulk and has no strict upper limit. As such she could become stronger than The Thing if made angry enough but the version that retains Jennifer Walters' identity simply can't lose it to that degree.
The Thor/Hercules comparison is a long standing grudge match amongst comics fans. The deluxe OHotMU is vague about this with its Class 100 cop out but in the original edition Hercules was a smidgen stronger and I favour this view. I once read a John Byrne interview in which he expounded the notion that Captain America was a better fighter than Batman because Bats is also great detective and has loads of tech and therefore by the immutable laws of superhero powers and abilities Cap must be better to make up for it. I adopt this approach where the Thor/Herc is concerned as Thor also has his hammer, can control the weather, fly, throw lightning bolts, deflect bullets and energy attacks, and perform quite a few other magical effects. Therefore Hercules is a little bit stronger just like the MU said.
Regarding the Spidey annual chart I would argue that the Black panther is on a par with Cap in terms of physical strength as the Wakandan heart shaped herb has comparable effect to the super soldier serum. In the original edition of OHotMU they are even but in the deluxe Cap is a smidgen stronger but I put this down to latent jingoism in American comics (!). Naturally it has nothing to do with me being a huge Black Panther fan.
Regarding Cap's strength level and his fitness regime I'd suggest that the serum greatly increased his strength at a base level and that even without exercise he's much stronger than the average human of his height and build. In order to reach his own peak potential he still needs to exercise and keep fit. I would also suggest that the effect the serum has on his metabolism makes it easier for him to keep fit and maintain himself in absolute peak condition. He does still need to exercise though in order to be at his best.
Marvel Boy wrote:
Its worth remembering that Cap is at the peak level of human potential in essentially all physical attributes. This essentially defies his build -he's not at the peak for someone of his build but rather at the peak for all humanity. So normally a weghtlifter with strength comparable to Cap wouldn't be a top class sprinter or gymnast because he'd be much too bulky and unweildy. Similarly at over 6 ft tall someone like Cap wouldn't be able to be at the very limits of what a gymnast can achieve -but he is. Cap is able to do all these things and thus defies the limitations of his size and build and in that sense he is actually superhuman even though none of his individual capabilities are strictly in the superhuman range(and the same can be said of the Black Panther!).
humanbelly wrote:
There's plenty wonky with that chart but I can't agree with that. The Beast was never portrayed as being all that strong in those days. Marvel Universe had him at lifting 1 ton which seems about right. Beast had superhuman strength but his primary power was always presented as agility. It was only after that X-factor story with Infectia whose touch turned people into monsters and she did a number on Beast that he became really strong (remember that post-Shooter power creep that I was talking about -similar things happened with Collossus, Iron Man and The Thing around the same time).
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Post by bobc on May 13, 2015 7:42:10 GMT -5
CC--FINALLY another Black Panther fan! Have you been reading Hickman's New Avengers? He's done wonders with the character. In the past CA was considered "a smidgeon stronger" than T'Challa but T'Challa was created to be the second fastest Avenger behind Quicksilver. These days, he's gotten a power boost by the goddess Bast although it's not clear how big a boost he got. Marvel now considers him superhuman, and I'm glad.
Hey has anyone "seen" Sharky around?
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Post by humanbelly on May 13, 2015 11:34:14 GMT -5
Hey has anyone "seen" Sharky around? Oh, y'know, she's got a pretty neat little blog of her own called "Panelocity" where she manages to ferret out (an ASTONISHING number of-!) art-swipes, and posts them for consideration. Man, her eye & memory are like a real-life superpower! Also, I think she does still do the occasional update on the old "Two Girls. . etc. . .Some Comics" blog (the precursor to Bronze Age Babies). And of course she's likely got another 12 or 15 academic irons in the fire somewheres. . . (Shar, we're all just lucky you're not of the supervillain persuasion!). HB |
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Post by bobc on May 13, 2015 12:08:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the update--I've been on Bronze age Babies but never heard of the others.
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Post by humanbelly on May 13, 2015 13:39:20 GMT -5
"Two Girls, a Guy, and Some Comics" is the full name of the old one. Shar did a bit of a retrospective on the Scarlet Witch's historically malleable hair color in February.
HB
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Post by bobc on May 13, 2015 14:03:01 GMT -5
I see.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on May 29, 2015 18:38:08 GMT -5
CC--FINALLY another Black Panther fan! Have you been reading Hickman's New Avengers? He's done wonders with the character. In the past CA was considered "a smidgeon stronger" than T'Challa but T'Challa was created to be the second fastest Avenger behind Quicksilver. These days, he's gotten a power boost by the goddess Bast although it's not clear how big a boost he got. Marvel now considers him superhuman, and I'm glad. No, I haven't seen that stuff as yet. My last effort at catching up on Avengers stalled about half way through Bendis' run (I was posting here at that time which was a couple of years ago). I'm often a bit uneasy when they start upgrading a character's powers though. I always try to ignore those periods when Cap had super-strength -it just feels wrong. Marvel's writers have tended to struggle with the character. Treatments often come over as patronizing or as over-compensating. I'd like for the Death Tiger from Earth's Mightiest Heroes to make a comeback -he was an excellent nemesis for the Panther. |
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Jun 2, 2015 4:31:38 GMT -5
As an addendum, considering the Panther, have you seen this, quite possibly the ultimate Marvel Comics theory: Gateway's OriginPerhaps Nathan Adler's greatest ever theory? Some of his stuff explains the instances of extreme coincidence in the Marvel Universe that we discussed in the Superhero Room Mate Syndrome thread a few years ago -and this one in particular suggests some deeper significance to the meeting of Storm and the Panther as children. Hmmm. |
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