4 X 4 : YOUR FOUR FAVORITES

[Doctor Bong Crosby]

I´d like to know your favorite 4 on these four categories (Marvel, if you will, though if you feel strongly enough otherwise go ahead and list non Marvel ones as well) : superheroines, superheroes, teams and supervillains.
And if you want to add other categories, feel free to do so as well.
Mine are:

Heroines: 4) Crystal
3) She-Hulk
2) Wasp
1) Invisible Woman

Heroes: 4) Hawkeye
3) Thing
2) Hulk
1) Iron Man

Teams: 4) Exiles (Reality-jumping team)
3) Defenders
2) Fantastic Four
1) Avengers

Villains: 4) Doctor Doom
3) Leader
2) Mole Man
1) Mandarin

[Shiryu]

Interesting! Let's see

Heroines: 4) Storm
3) Scarlet Witch
2) Black Cat
1) Wasp

Heroes: 4) Vision
3) Captain America
2) Thor
1) Spider-Man

Teams: 4) West Coast Avengers
3) Fantastic Four
2) X-Men
1) Avengers

Villains: 4) Red Skull
3) Loki
2) Baron Zemo
1) Doc Doom

[humanbelly]

This is tough! (Especially goin' in reverse order. . . it's killin' me!)
Big exalt for this kind of conversation-starter, Bong--

Heroines:
4) Valkyrie
3) Monica Rambeau
2) Wasp
1) She-Hulk

(Bong, you're after my heart w/ your inclusion of Jen. Never has a character been so maligned and reviled by fans upon her [dreadfully conceived] creation-- and yet was generally written so well afterwards that she couldn't be made to simply sink into obscurity. She's one of the most unique and delightful female characters in comics.)

Heroes:
4) Vision
3) Hawkeye
2) Spider-Man
1) Ol' Greenskin! (C'mon. . .ya had to ask?)

Teams:
4) JSA (Yep, I'm exercising my non-Marvel option. The JSA incarnations of the last 15 years are probably the most I've cared about DC comics ever. It continually sparked that "wow, there's a lot of cool history here to be explored!" feeling that I got as a kid w/ Silver Age Marvel.)
3) FF
2) Defenders
1) Avengers

(The only reason the X-Men couldn't make this list is because of the direction the whole X-Verse took about 20 years ago, and it kind of erased my memory of the fun, compelling, great book it once was.)

Villains:
This is really tough. Obviously, there are a bajillion more villains than heroes. . . and to be brutally honest, there are MANY who I've just worn out on seeing used (Doc Doom, Loki), knowing that sooner or later they'll somehow return. Most of the A-listers mentioned by you guys kind of fall into that category. Let's see, how about. . .
4) The Absorbing Man-- 'cause lordy, he's just such a brutish oaf, and yet he stubbornly clings to his low-brow road to villanous success.
3) Ultron-- because he really is just about consistently and frighteningly unbeatable as a foe can get.
2) Abomination
1) The Leader. He's definitely 2nd tier to most folks, but he's the perfect example of the megalomaniac who believes his "vision" of ruling the world is truly what's best, and all of these inferior dolts are just too stupid to even recognize it. Different writers have seemed to pick up on his nearly-comic snotty arrogance over the years, and it's made him a much more readable villain than most. He just never steps outside of the boundaries of the Hulk's stable of books.

HB

[spiderwasp]

Fun. I always love this sort of stuff for some reason.

Heroines:
Wasp
She-Hulk
Hell-cat
Spectrum (Captain Marvel, Photon, whatever)

Heroes
Spider-man (Pre One More Day)
Human Torch
Thing
Quicksilver

Teams
Avengers
Squadron Supreme
Fantastic Four
Defenders

Villains
Sandman (Although I actually did like him as a converted hero)
Grim Reaper
Ultron
Kang (Mostly because of his involvement with many of my favorite storylines - Celestial Madonna, Avengers in the Old West, Young Avengers LS, Avengers Forever)

Here's my extra list to add:
Characters you can't quite categorize but you love them anyway -
Impossible Man
Howard the Duck
Madcap
Forbush Man

[humanbelly]

Oh! I've only a moment, but here's a nice add-on for the list--

Favorite four non-super supporting characters (you gotcher girl-friends, boy-friends, bosses, side-kicks, co-workers, landlords, etc, etc)

4) Jim Wilson (I'd go w/ Jarella, except she was more of much-missed guest-star, rather than a supporting character).
3) Mary Jane Watson-Parker
2) Jarvis
1) J Jonah Jameson (god bless 'im!)

HB

[Doctor Bong Crosby]

I love Howard and Impossible Man as well, sp. Also Jarvis and Marilla (who was Luna Maximoff´s nanny until she was gratuitiously murdered by Iron Man during "The Crossing".).
My honorable mentions would be: Mockingbird and Squirrel Girl (heroines), Adam Warlock and Hercules (heroes), the Great Lakes Avengers (last incarnation) and the Infinity Watch (teams)and Loki and the Enchantress (villains).

[ultron69]

Heroines
1. Wasp
2. She-Hulk
3. Kitty Pryde
4. Monica Rambeau (two of my favorite females change names so often I can't keep track!)

Heroes (really, really tough, and changes on a daily basis)
1. Silver Surfer
2. Black Panther
3. Beast
4. Hawkeye
Apologies to Nightcrawler, Wolverine (he used to be cool), Spidey, Hercules, and Thor.

Teams
1. Avengers
2. Legion of Super-Heroes (like HB, I'm exercising my non-Marvel option
3. X-Men (they used to be my favorite back in the day but, well...)
4. JLA (I almost went with the Teen Titans, but 70's nostalgia makes me give my final vote to the senior members)

Villains
1. Magneto
2. Ultron
3. Dr. Doom
4. Thanos
Dishonorable mention to Juggernaut

[spiderwasp]

Bong, I didn't even think about Marilla. I loved her. She and Jarvis gave the book some much needed comic relief and lightheartedness at a really rough period. Her death is just one of the reasons that I consider The Crossing to be one of the worst comic stories ever.

I like the non-powered list HB so here goes:
Mary Jane Watson Parker
J Jonah Jameson
May Parker
Jarvis

I suppose the reason I was used to be such a Spider-man fan (Again, pre One More Day) was because of the rich supporting characters. 3 of my 4 come from this book and Joe Robertson, Gwen Stacy, George Stacy, Flash Thompson, and several more continued to make this book rich and fulfilling.

Actually, the mention of Gwen and The Crossing makes me think of another list. The four best stories and the four worst ever.
For me:

The best:
Squadron Supreme LS
The Korvac Saga
Avengers Forever
The Seige of Avengers Mansion by the Masters of Evil

The worst:
The Crossing
The Gwen Stacy had Norman Osborne's babies story(Don't remember the actual name)
One More Day
Secret Invasion

[Doctor Bong Crosby]

I think choosing storylines is even harder, sp.
Here are mine:

Best:

4)Siege of Avengers Mansion / I didn´t really care that much for the line up involved (except the Wasp and Hercules), but this story was crafted to near perfection, I think. Lots of (to me) deadpan characterizations, psychological insight and each character (even the villains) gets her/his moment on the spotlight.
3)Infinity Gauntlet / Truly epic in scope; sort of a cosmogony for the Marvel Universe.
2)Avengers Forever / Unofficial All-Things Avengers compendium.
1)JLA / Avengers / What can I say...? A fan boy´s (long awaited) dream come true. And wonderfully executed (in my book). Some stories just fill your heart with joy and this one did it best for me.

Worst:

4)Mandarin: The Story of My Life (IM Annual # 1) / Clearly, Fraction has no love for the Mandarin. And I mean NO love at all... . I think this story (and the whole Mandarin´s characterization during Fraction´s run, really) does the Mandarin a worst disservice than IM 3 (the movie). Here Fraction turns the Mandarin into a vile buffoon, with zero depth and no redeeming qualities whatsoever; a brutish, lying oaf, a psychopathic bully, lacking even his well established in continuity intellectual genius. Oh, and extremely lecherous to boot. Have I mentioned how I hate this story...?
3)The Crossing / The least said about this one the better.
2)Civil War / I know... I know... I´m willing to concede that the crossover was probably very well executed TECHNICALLY, still, you will never, ever, convince me that the heroes who I knew for decades would behave like this towards each other. Nope. I... just... can´t... . At least during the Crossing IM was being mind controlled by Immortus... but supposedly he was just being himself during CW.
1)Sins Past / That´s the title you were looking for, sp. Now if we could all just completely forget the whole storyline as easily as you forgot the title...!This was the writing on the wall(crawler), the beginning of the end of the Spiderverse for me. I cannot even begin to articulate the feeling of disgust that overcame me the first time I read this... thing. ´nough said!

Extremely dishonorable mention: the whole Heroes Reborn affair. I refuse to consider it cannon. Nope, it never happened... that´s the story they told when they returned to Earth, but actually they were partying with Starfox in Titan for a whole year.

[spiderwasp]

Feb 12, 2014 14:43:48 GMT -5 Doctor Bong Crosby said:

the whole Heroes Reborn affair. I refuse to consider it cannon. Nope, it never happened... .

Doc, you just summed up the very reason I didn't include this in my list. I never read it and it ceased to exist just as soon as Busiek came on board with his wonderful relaunch.

Of course, I also consider that One More Day never happened either and that the Spider-verse just ceased to exist that day and may still someday return and yet I included it so I guess I'm not terribly consistent.

[humanbelly]

Feb 12, 2014 1:15:53 GMT -5 spiderwasp said:

Fun. I always love this sort of stuff for some reason.

)

Here's my extra list to add:
Characters you can't quite categorize but you love them anyway -
Impossible Man
Howard the Duck
Madcap
Forbush Man

Heck, I think I can give ya four just from classic Incredible Hulk appearances:

1) Mogol
2) The Missing Link
3) The Glob (original mulchy version-- clay-ish version less-so)
4) Man-Thing (Glob's obviously younger little cousin-- and his own character as well, naturally)

HB

[humanbelly]

Feb 12, 2014 13:39:03 GMT -5 spiderwasp said:

Bong, I didn't even think about Marilla. I loved her. Actually, the mention of Gwen and The Crossing makes me think of another list. The four best stories and the four worst ever.
For me:

The best:
Squadron Supreme LS
The Korvac Saga
Avengers Forever
The Seige of Avengers Mansion by the Masters of Evil

The worst:
The Crossing
The Gwen Stacy had Norman Osborne's babies story(Don't remember the actual name)
One More Day
Secret Invasion

Man, these two are really worthy of a thread all their own, right? Although I'll bet there's a surprising amount of concensus to be had-- especially w/ the "worst" ones.

1)I'd actually put "Sins Past" at the top of the list because it was such a deliberate, calculated, and nauseatingly tawdry & ugly betrayal of a truly beloved memory in the hearts and minds of long-time fans. A small-scale story, sure-- but one that flirts with the idea that art/literature can in fact be demonstrably evil. I'm not kidding at all. I don't know if a comic has ever, ever made me feel physically sick before.

2) In spite of events that have happened more recently, I think I'd still put The Crossing/Time-Slide/Godknowswhat (and the stories leading up to it) at number two, simply because there was not a single redeeming factor to consider. It wasn't a story with bad choices that I disagreed with. . . it was a story that MADE NO SENSE AT ALL! It was just a baffling, incomprehensible, never-explained disaster of a train-wreck. And the art fully lived down to those lowest expectations. . .

3) The entirety of the Bruce Jones run on the Hulk. . . with all the espionage, and Doc Sampson Black Ops, and Mr.Green/Mr.Blue, and hipster bleak story-telling, and truly gratuitous sex and blood, and no appearances of the Hulk himself for months at a time. While not a salvation, the run did generally have breath-taking art, I must say. I've said it before. . . it's the best-looking run I've ever hated.

4) A tie, though they're kind of connected. DisAssembled through Civil War. And I'm prejudiced because I simply hated what was being done to the universed and the characters. But I do have to recognize that that it was, in its way, an intelligently told story, with often fantastic art on display. So "worst" might be the wrong way to look at it.

5) Hey, as a bonus! PERSONALLY, I honestly wouldn't put it here (well, maybe for the 31 or so visual hands that managed to create astonishingly bad art on a consistent basis), but I'm surprised not to have already seen the run of FORCE WORKS mentioned here. I know that it has a particular little niche of reviledom all its own! (Story & character-wise, I still maintain that it was working for me, and was sorry to see it go. . . )

HB (Pre-blizzard dance practice for HBGirl is alllllllllmost done for the night!)

[Doctor Bong Crosby]

Feb 12, 2014 19:32:23 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Feb 12, 2014 13:39:03 GMT -5 spiderwasp said:

Bong, I didn't even think about Marilla. I loved her. Actually, the mention of Gwen and The Crossing makes me think of another list. The four best stories and the four worst ever.
For me:

The best:
Squadron Supreme LS
The Korvac Saga
Avengers Forever
The Seige of Avengers Mansion by the Masters of Evil

The worst:
The Crossing
The Gwen Stacy had Norman Osborne's babies story(Don't remember the actual name)
One More Day
Secret Invasion

Man, these two are really worthy of a thread all their own, right? Although I'll bet there's a surprising amount of concensus to be had-- especially w/ the "worst" ones.

1)I'd actually put "Sins Past" at the top of the list because it was such a deliberate, calculated, and nauseatingly tawdry & ugly betrayal of a truly beloved memory in the hearts and minds of long-time fans. A small-scale story, sure-- but one that flirts with the idea that art/literature can in fact be demonstrably evil. I'm not kidding at all. I don't know if a comic has ever, ever made me feel physically sick before.

2) In spite of events that have happened more recently, I think I'd still put The Crossing/Time-Slide/Godknowswhat (and the stories leading up to it) at number two, simply because there was not a single redeeming factor to consider. It wasn't a story with bad choices that I disagreed with. . . it was a story that MADE NO SENSE AT ALL! It was just a baffling, incomprehensible, never-explained disaster of a train-wreck. And the art fully lived down to those lowest expectations. . .

3) The entirety of the Bruce Jones run on the Hulk. . . with all the espionage, and Doc Sampson Black Ops, and Mr.Green/Mr.Blue, and hipster bleak story-telling, and truly gratuitous sex and blood, and no appearances of the Hulk himself for months at a time. While not a salvation, the run did generally have breath-taking art, I must say. I've said it before. . . it's the best-looking run I've ever hated.

4) A tie, though they're kind of connected. DisAssembled through Civil War. And I'm prejudiced because I simply hated what was being done to the universed and the characters. But I do have to recognize that that it was, in its way, an intelligently told story, with often fantastic art on display. So "worst" might be the wrong way to look at it.

5) Hey, as a bonus! PERSONALLY, I honestly wouldn't put it here (well, maybe for the 31 or so visual hands that managed to create astonishingly bad art on a consistent basis), but I'm surprised not to have already seen the run of FORCE WORKS mentioned here. I know that it has a particular little niche of reviledom all its own! (Story & character-wise, I still maintain that it was working for me, and was sorry to see it go. . . )

HB (Pre-blizzard dance practice for HBGirl is alllllllllmost done for the night!)

Yeah, hb, when it comes strictly to art, Force Works ties for the worst visuals ever together with Rob Liefield´s. Even remembering it is painful.

[Doctor Bong Crosby]

Feb 12, 2014 17:30:13 GMT -5 spiderwasp said:

Feb 12, 2014 14:43:48 GMT -5 Doctor Bong Crosby said:

the whole Heroes Reborn affair. I refuse to consider it cannon. Nope, it never happened... .

Doc, you just summed up the very reason I didn't include this in my list. I never read it and it ceased to exist just as soon as Busiek came on board with his wonderful relaunch.

Of course, I also consider that One More Day never happened either and that the Spider-verse just ceased to exist that day and may still someday return and yet I included it so I guess I'm not terribly consistent.

It makes sense. It´s part of your poppupian nature to exist in a fluid state.

[sharkar]

Wow, this sure has grown in a hurry! Great topic, Bong.

I'll try to get to the other stuff later on, but here's my response to the opening post. 

Heroines:

4) Tie- Medusa/Wasp/Natasha
3) Crystal
2) Lorna Dane
1) Wanda 

Heroes:
4) Clint Barton
3) Johnny Blaze 
2) Havok
1) Pietro

Teams:
4) X-Men--the O5 plus Lorna and Havok
3) as others have done, I choose to exercise the non-Marvel option here: Legion of Super-Heroes
2) Fantastic Four
1) Avengers

Villains (or at any rate, characters who started out as villains):
4) Enchantress
3) Dr. Doom
2) Magneto
1) Maximus   he's always been the most interesting Inhuman IMO

[pym]

Heroines: 4) Power Girl
3) Black Canary
2) Polaris
1) Valkyrie

Heroes: 4) Hawkeye/ Ferro Lad
3) The Vision
2) Iron Man
1) Ant Man/ Giant Man

Teams: 4) Original X- Men
3) Defenders
2) JLA
1) Avengers

Villains: 4) Masters of Evil
3) Kang
2) Zodiac
1) Enchantress

Artist: 4) Jim Steranko
3) John Buscema
2) Neal Adams
1) Wally Wood

Writer: 4) Steve Englehart
3) Stan/ Jack
2) Chris Claremont
1) Roy Thomas

[pym]

Best Cover: 4) Avengers 58
3) King Size Avengers 2
2) Avengers 92
1) X-Men 50

[spiderwasp]

I love how this thread and the site in general has taken off recently. Lots of great activity.

Nice additions Pym.

Artist:
George Perez
John Romita Sr
Jack Kirby
Alex Ross

Writers:
Stan Lee
Mark Gruenwald
Steve Englehart
Kurt Busiek
(Really don't want to leave Roy Thomas out so I'm throwing in a 5th)

Covers may require a little more thought.

[Doctor Bong Crosby]

Artists:

4) Gene Colan
3) Ron Lim
2) Neal Adams
1) George Perez

Writers:

4) Jim Starlin
3) Joe Casey
2) Peter David
1) Kurt Busiek

[spiderwasp]

Oh yeah, and I just realized I should also include Christos Gage. He's fairly new but is the best discovery Marvel has had in over a decade. This favorite writer category is proving to be the most difficult one yet for me.

[humanbelly]

Writers. . . writers, writers, writers--- man, that's so tough. Especially 'cause even the greatest ones from the Silver and Bronze ages turned out some REEEEEEEALLLY sub-par work in later years, kind of tarnishing their legacy. Ah, heck:

1) Kurt Busiek-- because it's pretty much a given I will like whatever it is he's writing, regardless of the title.
2) Roy Thomas
3) Mark Gruenwald
4) Joe Casey (although his sample for me has been pretty small)

Hmm, and I'll add a couple of bonuses:

5) Alan Moore-- it's just that, when I don't like him, I REALLY don't like him!
6) Len Wein
7) Gerry Conway/Steve Englehart/Roger Stern all kind of tie, since they had brilliant runs on some titles, but were capable of being perfectly dreadful on others now and then.


Artists:

1) Call me a sentimental mush--- I'm goin' with Sal Buscema, still. I'm in a "sustained dependability trumps all" mood this morning.
2) George Perez
3) John Byrne, yep. I may rant about him for all sorts of reasons, but his visual style always improves a book and a story for me.
4) Alan Davis
5) Wow, John Buscema all the way in fifth? How can that be? Maybe I need to re-calculate. . .

HB

[ultron69]

This will be tough!
Writers
1. Roy Thomas
2. Steve Englehart
3. Mark Gruenwald
4. Jim Shooter
Ala HB, some bonuses:
Claremont (up to about 1984), Levitz, Gerber

Artists
1. George Perez
2. Neal Adams
3. John Romita sr. Funny but I think the apple fell far from the tree here
4. John Byrne. Inker dependent
Honorable mentions: John Buscema, Lim, Steranko, Starlin

[starfoxxx]

Heroes> 1. Captain America
2. Beast (blue, furry, circa Avengers #137-200)
3. Hawkeye
4. Hercules
best costume bonus....Stingray

Heroines> 1. Wasp
2. Tigra
3. She-Hulk
4. Valkyrie (before her origin got so confusing)
best costume bonus....tie between original Storm, original Spider-Woman, & Snowbird

Villains> 1. Taskmaster
2. Absorbing Man
3. Wrecker
4. Grey Gargoyle
best costume bonus> tie between Electro, Mysterio, and Mesmero

Teams > 1. Avengers (East and West ONLY!)
2. Defenders
3. Serpent Society
4. Wrecking Crew
The X-men would be on my list, but most everything past Uncanny #200 has been such garbage, it tarnished the great old X-team.
Wolverine would have been on my favorite heroes, but for the same reason he is not.

[Shiryu]

Best Avengers stories
1) Avengers / JLA
2) The Mansion Siege
3) The Kang Dinasty
4) Korvac Saga

Worst Avengers stories
1) The one with Hank and Jan having sex
2) The Crossing
3) Secret Invasion
4) Disassembled

Best Writers
1) Busiek
2) Stern
3) DeMatteis
4) Gruenwald

Best Artists
1) Perez
2) Romita Sr
3) John Buscema
4) Al Milg... no, just kidding King Kirby

Posted by starfoxxx

Teams > 3. Serpent Society

Dang! I had forgotten them or they would have been my 4th.

[ultron69]

Feb 16, 2014 13:33:07 GMT -5 starfoxxx said:

Heroes>

Teams > 1. Avengers (East and West ONLY!)
2. Defenders
3. Serpent Society
4. Wrecking Crew
The X-men would be on my list, but most everything past Uncanny #200 has been such garbage, it tarnished the great old X-team.
Wolverine would have been on my favorite heroes, but for the same reason he is not.

I totally agree with you about the X-Men. I had them at #3 but I'd have had them ranked #1 if the series had ended by 1984.

[sharkar]

Feb 13, 2014 20:42:44 GMT -5 pym said:

Heroines: 4) Power Girl
3) Black Canary
2) Polaris
1) Valkyrie
....
Best Cover: 4) Avengers 58

3) King Size Avengers 2

2) Avengers 92

1) X-Men 50

Yay!! Another Polaris fan!   

X-Men #50 is one of my all-time favorite covers also, and coming as it did just a month after Avengers #57--what a one-two punch from Marvel! 

[Marvel Boy]

For simplicity's sake, I am limiting my choices to Marvel only.

Heroes:
1) Iron Man
2) Thor
3) Daredevil
4) Cyclops

Heroines:
1) Jean Grey
2) Invisible Woman
3) Rogue
4) Scarlet Witch

Teams:
1) X-Men
2) Avengers
3) Fantastic Four
4) Alpha Flight

Villains:
1) Magneto
2) Kingpin
3) Doctor Doom
4) Stryfe


Writers:
1) Chris Claremont
2) Roger Stern
3) Frank Miller
4) Peter David

Artists:
1) George Perez
2) Walt Simonson
3) John Bryne
4) Jack Kirby

Best Stories:
Avengers Forever
Dark Phoenix Saga
Armor Wars
Surtur Saga

Worst Stories:
Bendis' tenure on Avengers titles

[starfoxxx]

4 favorite COVERS

1. Avengers #181
2. Avengers #200
3. Avengers #221
4. Avengers #250

[pym]

Feb 18, 2014 21:02:51 GMT -5 sharkar said:

Feb 13, 2014 20:42:44 GMT -5 pym said:

Heroines: 4) Power Girl
3) Black Canary
2) Polaris
1) Valkyrie
....
Best Cover: 4) Avengers 58

3) King Size Avengers 2

2) Avengers 92

1) X-Men 50

Yay!! Another Polaris fan!   

X-Men #50 is one of my all-time favorite covers also, and coming as it did just a month after Avengers #57--what a one-two punch from Marvel! 

Those are great covers as bookends.
Thank you for posting them.

[humanbelly]

Feb 20, 2014 5:18:08 GMT -5 pym said:

Feb 18, 2014 21:02:51 GMT -5 sharkar said:

Yay!! Another Polaris fan!   

X-Men #50 is one of my all-time favorite covers also, and coming as it did just a month after Avengers #57--what a one-two punch from Marvel! 

Those are great covers as bookends.
Thank you for posting them.

Man, they're so similar, aren't they? And yet both are such terrific works of cover art-- it doesn't come across as unoriginal, rather that they're terrific variations on a theme (sort of like all of the "pieta" covers, or the "gunslinger" covers, or the "reflected in the glasses/faceplate" covers). That's also my favorite iteration of the X-MEN logo-- the truly huge, heavy, dominant block letters. Simple, and yet completely commanding.

Hmmmmmmmm. . .

4 Favorite Logos? Has that got some legs for this thread? I'll have to think on it a bit. . .

HB