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Post by sharkar on Mar 31, 2014 10:38:52 GMT -5
And boy, the interview was particularly enlightening as to the way Marvel worked in the late Silver/early Bronze age, wasn't it? Heck, I used to wonder what Marvel's editors did to fill an 8 hour day. . . now I'd have to ask the same question of the writers under that system! Were they scripting, what, one page every 2 or 3 hours? (heh-- okay, I'm being unduly facetious. . . ) HB I don't think the notion of an "8 hour day" enters into this, or at least not the timeframe we're talking about here--Silver Age/early Bronze Age, when Stan was e-i-c. For Marvel during this time, writers weren't on staff. They were paid per story--for plotting, or scripting (dialoguing/captioning the pencils), or for both. And though Roy was on staff and had been originally hired as a staff writer, that proved impractical and his job quickly evolved to that of being Stan's aide de camp in production/proofreading/corrections/you-name-it matters. RT was kept busy doing that sort of work, so that shortly after he was hired any writing (plots, scripts, both) he did was on a freelance basis--meaning he was paid separately for stories, above and beyond his staff salary. Note: in the 1940s-60s; Stan supplemented his own e-i-c salary with numerous writing assignments for not only Goodman's comics but also for other periodicals that were published by Goodman (this is noted in Spurgeon's book among others).
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Post by sharkar on Mar 31, 2014 10:43:11 GMT -5
I choose (as long as Shiryu has them available) Avengers Annual # 15, West Coast Avengers Annual # 1, Avengers Annual # 16 and West Coast Avengers Annual # 2. Sounds interesting--thanks, Bong! Shiryu, I will need the WCA annuals--I'll send you a PM. btw, the Absolute Vision Volume 2 tpb is available now, and it contains those great Stern Avengers issues we've just discussed.
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Post by sharkar on Mar 31, 2014 12:51:49 GMT -5
OMG , looks like I "liked" my own post when trying to edit ! (I can see the reassurances now--"Don't worry, sharkar, we all know you're not one of those shamelessly self-involved self-serving types..." yeah right!!!!)
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 5, 2014 20:54:37 GMT -5
I choose: Colonel Mustard with the candlestick at the library...! No, wait, wrong scenario... . Lets rewind: I choose (as long as Shiryu has them available) Avengers Annual # 15, West Coast Avengers Annual # 1, Avengers Annual # 16 and West Coast Avengers Annual # 2. So, it's the "Softball Game" Annuals, is it, Doc? *Whew*-- and it's a kinda big reading assignment, too! (Is that bevy of teachers on the board still lurking; appreciating this self-inflicted homework?). I finally had a chance to sit down and read the 1986 pair this afternoon (during a jazz & Elvis impersonator concert at the atrium of the National Portrait Gallery. . . truly a once-in-a-lifetime ambience combination). Let me go ahead and get the ball rolling with a few comments on Avengers Ann #15: IIRC, this is when we had big John Buscema back on the main title, and I KNOW that when I picked up this book, I was not at all happy to see the Steve Ditko/Klaus Janson art team-- and it truly effected my enjoyment of the book AT THAT TIME. This will have been the first time I've read this issue since getting it- wow- 28 years ago, and you know what? I've changed. I. . . kind of love the art in its Silver Age-style glory. It's uneven at times-- w/ Janson's finishes over Ditko's "layouts" looking less-than-finished at times-- but I may attribute that to the time spent on the absolute masterpiece of that Hawkeye splash page. At sometime around this era, Ditko pencilled a Hulk Annual that was then inked by John Byrne-- and it was a one-time pairing that was almost startlingly good. So this time around I give the art an affectionate thumbs-up for its sense of nostalgic fun. The softball game, too, just smacks of the early Silver Age (Silver Age DC, in fact, now that I think about it). Fingeroth's dialog is a bit clunky and forced throughout, as he tries to "naturally" work in all of the necessary exposition, introductions, and relationships, but I do like the fact that they give the sequence plenty of pages to develop. Usually, you get about one panel of this sort of thing before the book's nemesis interrupts everything. Hank's "ground rule double" call is darned brilliant. The story itself? Well, rather inane and awwwwwwfully hard to swallow, even in a comic-book universe. I'm sorry, but it lost its integrity the moment that a ridiculously underpowered Freedom Force (including one very reluctant member) was able to defeat TWO full teams of Avengers. This was a poor way to achieve Fingeroth's need to have the Avengers imprisoned in the Vault, as it simply makes both teams look inexplicably incapable and incompetent? I mean, if F-Force were openly evil again, would they have any trouble conquering these same Avengers? The dire actions on the part of the gov't on behalf of the oft-disgraced Gyrich are awfully hard to resolve, as well. One almost has to assume that there were deeply illegal and outright false actions being committed beyond the "sworn testimony" of one Peitro Maximoff. Also, the story is very much weakened by the fact that Avengers are ultimately sprung from the pokey purely by the whims (unknown to them ever after, apparently) of the conscience of one Julia Carpenter. If she hadn't accidentally tripped a perimeter alarm after she'd decided to NOT help the Avengers after all, they would be there still. Hmm-- no Secret Wars II, no Civil War, No Secret Invasion, no Heroes Reborn. . . well, who's to say what's best, really? But, when the Avengers only triumph by vagaries of a whimsical chance of circumstances-- ugh, it's just poor storytelling. Ooops-- aaaaand looks like that's all I've time for this eve. Till later, all! HB
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 13, 2014 12:09:18 GMT -5
Aaand here I am. I'm starting with the latter story(ies) from WCA #2 and Avengers annual #16, being my favourite of the lot.
For starters, the idea of an annual baseball game between the two teams is just genius. It makes little sense from a real world point of view - as Clint states, it makes them all very vulnerable to attacks - but it serves to highlight the friendship and friendly rivalry between the two teams. And it's nice to see them having fun for a change, instead of fighting for their lives against one enemy or another. Still, happy times do not sell comics, and so we quickly shift to the main story. Having the two teams fight each other seemed a bit cliched, especially given how most of them don't really try to talk things out with their respective foes. It does look like a way to fill a few extra pages and give fans something to talk about, as the most extablished characters usually win. While I liked Thor giving the obnoxious and arrogant Wonder Man of this period a sound beating, my favourite bouts were Dr Druid vs Tigra and Hawkeye vs She Hulk, whilst Wasp losing to Hank Pym and his gadgets seemed a little silly, and I also don't really see Captain Marvel (Monica) losing to Iron Man. It looked like the Wackos had to score a couple of wins, since the story was taking place in their own book. So, overall, part one is good fun but not the most memorable story ever. The art doesn't help either. Whilst I've stated several times how much I like Milgrom, he looks better when inked by Sinnot and some panels look rushed, making the book a bit inconsistent.
Part two, where the assembled teams face the legion of Death is much better, possibly one of my favourite stories ever, one that really packs a punch. What strikes me is how easily most of the heroes die... we are often treated to supervillains who are described as deadly but never achieve anything (I'm looking at you, Death Adder), and to heroes who get hit by just about anything and shrug it all off. Not so here: broken necks, Wasp crushed to death, Monica torn apart, Hank stabbed in the back... it's vicious, almost what if-like, but works wonders to make the story far more dramatic than usual, a bit like it happened in the final chapter of the Korvac saga. I should also add that it's not gory or graphically upsetting, in fact, most scenes are rather touching either because of someone's death, or because of the effect it has on everybody else. Not that all of them make complese sense though... could Bucky really kill the Wasp with a single punch? Talking of Bucky, it's funny how most of these "dead" villains were infact revealed to be alive and well later on. Considering how out of characters some of them are, I suppose it's fair to imply these were copies created by the Grandmaster, and not the real thing. Has it ever been clarified anywhere?
And then we have the wonder scene of Hawkeye challenging the Grandmaster to a game of chance... and winning by cheating. That's just so in character with Clint, he has just lost his wife and yet he finds a way to smirk and win the day. His characterization is a lot more faithful here than in some WCA stories, and indeed in many modern day stories. He has definitely sufferend more than others from the current tendency to make characters grim and gritty.
The only downside, once again, is the art. I'm not a fan of having multiple artists on the same story, especially if they have wildly different styles, and this annual looks even more inconsistent than WCA a#2
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Post by sharkar on Apr 17, 2014 15:36:01 GMT -5
Shiryu and HB do a great job analyzing Avengers Annuals #15 and #16 and West Coast Avengers Annual #2. I agree with many of their points, such as the Ditko/Janson art (not their best work); the softball games having that "early Silver Age" feel (and SA DC to boot--HB is spot-on!); and Shiryu's observation about the some of the wins seeming contrived/being driven by "the story taking place in their [WCA] own book." In Avengers Annual #15, I got a kick out of the Black Knight's pronouncement:"Jan's my team leader. I'm going to go along with whatever she says." Yeah, I'll bet you would, Dane! I'll comment on West Coast Avengers Annual #1. Love that it features one of my favorite characters, Pietro; but wow, the poor guy looks and sounds more maniacal here than his father ever did (and Englehart continues the Pietro-bashing some months later in FF #304, when a crazed Pietro kidnaps Alicia--er, I mean Lyja). And yes, I know it's "explained" later on in an X-Factor Annual that Maximus is warping Pietro's mind (and Crystal's too) during this time, but sheesh, Quickie is just over-the-top nuts in this story. I did like Cap and Clint reminding Pietro (and the others) of the good ol' Kooky Quartet days. Re the Natasha-Bobbi "She's pretty" sequence: I guess Englehart and Fingeroth forgot that Natasha and Bobbi had already met some time earlier, back in Avengers #239 (the David Letterman issue). My favorite Pietro panel from WCA Annual #1
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 17, 2014 16:23:30 GMT -5
My favorite Pietro panel from WCA Annual #1 Englehart really had a thing against marriage, didn't he? HB (I think) recently commented on the Hawkeye/Mockingbird divorce in WCA, and on how it was handled, pondering wether Englehart was going through marriage issues himself. This panel certainly points in that direction. Maximus' warping Pietro and Crystal's minds is a retcon I have mixed feelings with. Quicksilver's over the top reaction was certainly excessive, almost maniac, and did indeed benefit from some further explanation, considering his many years as a hero and Avenger. But Crystal's cheating on him is more like human nature, flawed and sad, but still possible without needing the explanation of outside influences. It does, after all, happen a fair deal to ordinary people (but in case anyone is wondering, no, I don't support cheating on one's spouse in real life ).
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 23, 2014 19:35:19 GMT -5
My goodness, I've gotten all behind the curve on this thread! I've gone ahead and pulled WCA Annual #1 back out again, just so's I can make a bit of refreshed and informed further commentary!
This was BY FAR the better of the '86 pairing, IMHO. The Bright/Isherwood art is extremely clean & clear & eye-friendly. I always thought both of these guys were solid, accessible, Marvel-style upper-2nd-tier artists-- and my feeling is that they kind of improve each other in this issue. As far as POV and panel layouts go, Mark Bright clearly decided on a "how would John Byrne present this?" strategy, and I think it served him very well. Page 17, in particular (encounter in the airlock), could have come right from Byrne's drawing board-- a particularly dynamic, cinematic, and enjoyable sequence. And the bottom panel on page 31? Showing the prepped fists of the "reserve" squad as Thor's hammer returns? That particular image has been a personal favorite for so long that I actually remembered it clearly after having forgotten that it came from this issue--! It's a moment on the page that still (even as I'm looking over it now-!) gives me that delightful, tingley shiver. . . that "Oh man, here it comes NOW!" charge of expectation as righteousness is 'bout to be served in ample portions!
The story flows very well-- still certainly a structural throwback to the Annuals of a few years gone by, but the whole inescapable "Break the Team up into squads" dead-horse convention actually seems to make sense for once, and comes across as almost an organic aspect of the plot rather than an eye-rolling contrivance. Having it hinge on Pietro's ability to cover ground so quickly even adds some weight to the level of threat he poses. And the Zodiac members' running commentary on his fatigue level grounds it in a way that anyone can relate to.
Some bullet points:
*Englehart seems so much stronger in this issue than he was on the main title itself at the time. Dialog is solid and in character. Plot elements are juggled deftly. Hunh-- what gives?
*I'm surprised at this late date that completely sentient, self-willed LMD's w/ myriad personality quirks and foibles are still easily dismissed as not being truly "alive". Geesh-- isn't there a guy named Vision still playing a major role, here?
*Honestly, it was a shame that they attempted to retcon Pietro's breakdown away as mind control. Having a hero fall apart like this-- ESPECIALLY when he'd been conceivably headed down this path for a long time-- is muchmuchMUCH more interesting and compelling in the long run. Contrast what he is here to the hero he was 'waaaaay back in Avengers. . .#23? (Kidnapped into Kang's future)-- where he's separated from the team and really shows himself to be a compassionate and self-less fellow.
*The whole Kidnapped-by-the-Government atrocity of the previous issue is simply wiped away as part of, like, a post-script! Good lord-- that was an incident that should have been made PRIORITY ONE the very next day! If not for Spiderwoman's accidental tripping of a perimeter alarm as she tried to slink off, they would ALL be rotting away in the Vault to this very day!! Hello? Constitutional rights, much??
*Uh. . . in the 2 or 3 minutes between issues, how did Hank manage to score a shirt and jacket? For some unknown reason, his being shirtless in the previous issue seemed to be a visual mandate. . .
VERY happy to have read this issue again-- so many good, fun elements!
HB
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pym
Reservist Avenger
"About 20 yards to my right…"
Posts: 200
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Post by pym on Jun 2, 2014 14:07:21 GMT -5
Hello
I know I have not participated much...but I hate to see this thread lie still.
Who is next?
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 2, 2014 21:39:39 GMT -5
Say, a quick point I never got around to making (or perhaps missed that someone else did): Did anyone else ever notice that Avengers Annual #16 (1987) was basically a shameless remake of Giant-Size Defenders #3 (from late '74)-? A Winner-take-all best-of-series contest with the Grandmaster as one of the opponents; the larger group broken up into smaller/individual matches; and the Grandmaster himself being defeated-- ON BOTH OCCASSIONS!-- by a seeming game of even-odds chance that he's been talked into playing by one of his human gamepieces-- IN WHICH THE HUMAN CHEATED BOTH TIMES!!! (It was Daredevil and a rigged coin-toss in the Defenders issue)
I mean, fool you once, Mr. Elder of the Universe, shame on me. . . But fool you twice??? With the SAME ROUTINE??? Dude, surely a being who has become a Universal Elder via his devotion to gaming has come across a crooked table or a stacked deck once or twice during his personal stretch of Eternity??? Ha-- and if anything, losing at "Guess which hand it's in?" on the second go-round is an even MORE ignoble defeat-! Lordy, if he ever tries this again Willie Lumpkin's going to take him down & win the Earth back with a cleverly-paced round of eeny-meeny-miney-moe. . .
HB
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 3, 2014 7:34:32 GMT -5
Say, a quick point I never got around to making (or perhaps missed that someone else did): Did anyone else ever notice that Avengers Annual #16 (1987) was basically a shameless remake of Giant-Size Defenders #3 (from late '74)-? A Winner-take-all best-of-series contest with the Grandmaster as one of the opponents; the larger group broken up into smaller/individual matches; and the Grandmaster himself being defeated-- ON BOTH OCCASSIONS!-- by a seeming game of even-odds chance that he's been talked into playing by one of his human gamepieces-- IN WHICH THE HUMAN CHEATED BOTH TIMES!!! (It was Daredevil and a rigged coin-toss in the Defenders issue) I mean, fool you once, Mr. Elder of the Universe, shame on me. . . But fool you twice??? With the SAME ROUTINE??? Dude, surely a being who has become a Universal Elder via his devotion to gaming has come across a crooked table or a stacked deck once or twice during his personal stretch of Eternity??? Ha-- and if anything, losing at "Guess which hand it's in?" on the second go-round is an even MORE ignoble defeat-! Lordy, if he ever tries this again Willie Lumpkin's going to take him down & win the Earth back with a cleverly-paced round of eeny-meeny-miney-moe. . . HB Hm, it could be that the more complex the games he's played over the centuries, the easier it becomes for him to overlook the simpler games of chance. Or perhaps arrogance plays a part in that it doesn't occur to him that he could ever lose at such a simple game. (Though losing twice at the same game should be a wake-up call). Either way, it just proves that as a gambler, you gotta know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em. If I may be so bold (plus I can't quite recall whose turn it is next), may I suggest for the next reading Avengers Vol. 1 #164-166, a trilogy of sorts with Count Nefaria? I recently came across these issues, having never read them before although I recall these covers popping up quite a bit in the character's covers spotlight thread.
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Post by sharkar on Jun 3, 2014 18:21:15 GMT -5
Say, a quick point I never got around to making (or perhaps missed that someone else did): Did anyone else ever notice that Avengers Annual #16 (1987) was basically a shameless remake of Giant-Size Defenders #3 (from late '74)-? A Winner-take-all best-of-series contest with the Grandmaster as one of the opponents; the larger group broken up into smaller/individual matches; and the Grandmaster himself being defeated-- ON BOTH OCCASSIONS!-- by a seeming game of even-odds chance that he's been talked into playing by one of his human gamepieces-- IN WHICH THE HUMAN CHEATED BOTH TIMES!!! (It was Daredevil and a rigged coin-toss in the Defenders issue) I mean, fool you once, Mr. Elder of the Universe, shame on me. . . But fool you twice??? With the SAME ROUTINE???
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Post by sharkar on Jun 3, 2014 18:46:32 GMT -5
If I may be so bold (plus I can't quite recall whose turn it is next), may I suggest for the next reading Avengers Vol. 1 #164-166, a trilogy of sorts with Count Nefaria? I recently came across these issues, having never read them before although I recall these covers popping up quite a bit in the character's covers spotlight thread. Great suggestion, MB! I've never actually read these particular issues, Avengers 164-166, so it should be fun.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 3, 2014 21:12:26 GMT -5
If I may be so bold (plus I can't quite recall whose turn it is next), may I suggest for the next reading Avengers Vol. 1 #164-166, a trilogy of sorts with Count Nefaria? I recently came across these issues, having never read them before although I recall these covers popping up quite a bit in the character's covers spotlight thread. Great suggestion, MB! I've never actually read these particular issues, Avengers 164-166, so it should be fun. Yep, I'd be up for that, too-- those three issues are a good read, yet with enough foibles to provide for a bit of fun-making (done with deep appreciation and love, naturally---). HB
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 5, 2014 7:21:16 GMT -5
Alright then, cool. Although instead of posting my review of all three issues at once, I may post about each individual issue. But if you all want to post about all three at once, feel free. I'll catch up to you.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 9, 2014 8:03:33 GMT -5
I had a much longer post detailing about #164 but I forgot about the laptop's battery (you get so wrapped up in what you're doing ) and it died on me. So, here's a more concise version. First off, great dynamic cover. If I saw this cover on the racks when I was little, heck yeah, I'd buy it! Inside, Shooter weaves a very entertaining story, dealing with various plot points while having the main villain's plan expand leading to a satisfying cliffhanger. One item that stood out for me is Beast's reaction to his role in examining Simon's new condition. Feeling slighted, he leaves only to become gawked over by some of the adoring public which helps bolsters his spirits. Now, such a scene would never occur in today's comics, the public wouldn't be so fawning over a blue-furred mutant and Hank would do something abrupt and drastic if he continued to feel slighted. But in this issue, at that time, this scene felt remarkably refreshing. As for the art, Bryne does yet another solid job. Marcos as his inker does a very good job as well but I admit, I'm rather spoiled, for wanting to see Terry Austin as Bryne's inker instead, somehow Austin just makes his art pop and sing more. My only nitpick is within their fight with the Lethal Legion. Black Panther gets caught up in one of Whirlwind's mini-tornadoes. That scene is a little jarring, as BP's head and arm are in one corner of the panel yet his leg is the other corner of the panel. I know it's supposed to convey his spinning but it looks painful. :lol: But then he gets tossed out, prompting Simon to yell at Cap to help BP. Judging by the angle though, BP gets tossed in the opposite direction of Cap. Yet in the next panel, Cap somehow races to catch up and pass a flying BP just in time to help catch him...whew! I guess that's why he's a super-solider. But overall, a very fun issue. On to #165!
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 9, 2014 14:05:02 GMT -5
Such a well-paced, solid, and most of all FUN little trilogy this was! Pulled it out last night and read through all three before nodding off.
So, this was in 1977, when Shooter was just a 26 year old wunderkind (albeit veteran) writer, and only a few short months before he became EIC. Sometimes I think his Avengers legacy gets a bit colored by the controversies of his editorial reign, and maybe by some of the later events in the Shooter/Michilinie Avengers run-- but his work right here? Man, hard for comics to get better than this. It really hits that ideal sweet-spot of character-development, sub-plot/overplot, and rootin'-tootin' action. If The Avengers were an actual TV show, this would have made a GREAT episode (or two), y'know?
One also has to give Jim S credit for planting the seeds of MANY well-established character traits right here in this very arc. Note that in #164 alone we have it "discovered" that Wonder Man is actually an ionic energy being now; and we get a somewhat heavy-handed introduction to his fear of death (Mortiphobia? What's the word for that. . .?). With the Beast we have the beginnings of his feelings of inadequacy on the team (much-deserved, I'm afraid-- it was amazing how often he was either side-lined or ineffective up to this point. . . and it happens yet again in this issue when ex-Power Man throws him 'waaaay out of the fight); but even more delightfully, his whole pheremonic sex-appeal schtick is established for the first time. Shooter writes a great Beast. . . he just seems to have the same trouble as everyone else getting him installed into the action. We also have a big ol' flare-up brewing with Cap's dissatisfaction w/ how Iron Man is running the team. That tension, of course, will be mined again and again for years to come. Of the three super-thugs used here, Erik Josten is easily the least vicious or downright "evil", as it were. Ill-tempered and brutish, yes-- but there's something about his "let's get the job done" mind-set that makes him more approachable--- someone who might be redeemable down the road. . .
As far as conventions go-- Wasp gets hurt at the outset of the big battle for the bajillionth time, BUT-- Hank doesn't have his customary nervous breakdown (which has always pretty much been requisite), and actually manages to return to battle AND we'll see Jan brush off her injuries in the next issue and insist on jumping right back into battle. I am not at all sure we've EVER seen that before. . . and it was a welcome sight.
Nit-picks can come a bit further in the coversation, as well as thoughts on the art. (Aw heck-- I LOVE Byrne/Marcos. . . what's to say?)
HB
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 13, 2014 7:46:10 GMT -5
OK, I'm going to try and read these this weekend!
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 14, 2014 10:06:39 GMT -5
Hm, I did not know that #164 was Bryne's first work on Avengers. Plus, that was the last 30 cents issue.
But now onto #165!
Wow, just a straight-up fight issue from beginning to end, lots of good moments as Nefaria holds his own against the whole team. He drops a 40-story building on them at one point...man, hope no one was inside at the time. Yikes! Although that scene of Nefaria lifting the structure is reminiscent of the scene Bryne would later do in FF #249 of Gladiator picking up the Baxter Building.
But what troubles are they referring to for Iron Man that are disrupting his ability to lead the team? At best I can tell, around the time these issues were released, the Iron Man title was around the early #100s and the only thing I can find is that someone named Midas had gained control of Stark International.
Love that Beast references Nefaria's last appearance in X-Men where Nefaria would supposed to have died in the same explosion that did kill Thunderbird. Beast's outrage over Nefaria's casual dismissal over his own survival of that incident was a nice touch.
And the first appearance of Gyrich! Yay! Our favorite government flunkie we love to hate! As arrogant and condescending as ever it seems.
Great cliffhanger at issue's end, if I had read this as a child, I would be itching for 30 days to pass to see what happens next.
Terrific issue, on to #166!
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 16, 2014 7:47:09 GMT -5
I just love seeing this classic Avengers logo on the cover. It gives me a warm, tingly feeling.
Avengers 164 – Nice to see Beast (&T’Challa)in their lab coats, though the Beast gets left out a bit. Too many super-geniuses on the Avengers! Reasonable (comic book) explanation for Simon coming back to life. I like how the Beast gets some love from the ladies here. Nice reference to the flying belt from Avengers #16 – I had totally forgotten about that. We get to see the new & improved Wasp & Yellowjacket’s (via MTU #59-60) power here. I like this Wonder Man costume. It’s funny how Simon started out as an inventor but is usually shown as not being too bright. I notice a lot of Marvel references (Simon here, Ben Grimm & Hawkeye that I recall in other comics) to the Mets, but none to the Yankees. I guess the Mets were the team of choice for the Merry Marvel Bullpen. Wondy is a hothead in this issue, but somebody has to play the obligatory fool who rushes forward at the chagrin of the team leader, right? Wondy’s lack of confidence, and fear of dying, start here, I think. I know YJ & Wasp are powered up, but I’m surprised that YJ’s stings actually hurt the new & improved “Power Man”. Nice double cross be Nefaria here. Is there no honor among thieves?
Avengers 165 – Count Nefaria is almost Superman-like here, sans the power of flight. This makes Cap's shield being able to withstand his wrath even more impressive. Nice Psychological warfare by the Whizzer, instilling the fear of death into Nefaria. Iron Man gets read the riot act in this issue, doesn’t he? This battle almost started to remind of of the Korvac battle, though obviously on a smaller scale, though some very impressive building toppling feats. Interesting here how Iron Man can temporarily amp up his power in order to go toe to toe with Nefaria. I like how Nefy, in spite of his power, is scared of Thor. I don’t remember this run of Avengers too well, because my memory stinks, but it appears to be yet another last minute rescue by Thor.
Avengers 166 – I was thinking right away that Thor should just let Nefaria have the hammer, since he wouldn't be able to pick it up, anyway. Wouldn't that p*ss him off? The first appearance of Gyrich here, one of my all time least favorite characters. Jan is assertive here. I like her “Hank of the only one who can treat me like a helpless female” quote to Jarvis. Nice to see Cap swallow his pride and lend his shield to Simon. Vizh is very mechanical, and perhaps Spock-like here. I do't specifically remember what this led to, though. That bad memory of mine again. Wanda is a bit of a b*tch, here, also. At the end, we get a tantalizing lead-up to the Wundagore Saga.
All in all, a very fun 3 parter. Excellent art, and good storytelling. Nefaria didn't quite stick as the next Ultron, but I still liked his imperious arrogance here, though he's so powerful that you'd better make sure you've got Thor on the speed dial if he ever comes back!
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Post by sharkar on Jun 16, 2014 20:43:46 GMT -5
I'm really enjoying everyone's illuminating comments--thanks, all. I've only read Avengers #164 so far. Art: As mentioned, this is the first time I've read this arc, but I have seen the opening splash page before, and that's my favorite "costume" for Simon (see Starfoxxx's thread). I don't normally like John Byrne's art so I'm not crazy about #164's art. I've always loved Byrne's Wanda, but IMO his Tony Stark is a disaster. I do think Marcos's inks are a plus and make the art look more substantial (fwiw, I'm reading this arc in the Essential b& w version). There are some effective J. Buscema/Kirby-like poses sprinkled throughout, which is to be expected by a young artist new to a series (esp. a book with so many characters like the Avengers). But some sequences seem disjointed, as in the T'Challa/Cap/whirlwind action sequence cited by Marvel Boy. Anyway, Byrne's work, while never my aesthetic preference, becomes much more assured later when he becomes the regular X-Men penciler, and then the FF. Storywise, #164's story is clear and easy to follow, which is a Shooter's trademark: he famously never wanted new readers to feel lost ("Every issue is someone's first..." yadda yadda). And as others have already mentioned, lots of personal interaction among the characters, also a Shooter specialty. Quite a few inaccurate footnote references, though; I guess it was an intern's responsibility to proofread--what happened?
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Post by sharkar on Jun 25, 2014 9:54:49 GMT -5
Okay, had a chance to read Avengers #165. Lots of action/battles so the story moves quickly. Another theme in full force here is the idea of a seemingly supreme antagonist--Shooter's Mordru (Legion of Super-Heroes), Korvac, etc. There's also Shooter's characteristic thought bubbles. These are in full force here, his characters often think about their fear, vulnerability, etc. I guess this contributes to the characterization, but reading this story now, it comes off as being overly expository for my taste). One example of the overly-telegraphed use is when Wanda thinks of Thor's last minute appearances; and then later on, there's a scene in which she berates him for such. I get that she's expressing her pent-up frustration, but the set-up seemed too heavyhanded. Art is good if not spectacular; again IMO it's Byrne trying to get a feel for a bunch of characters. Also, as mentioned I am reading this in b&w, so Nefaria here (facially) reminds me of Graviton, whom the Avengers had recently faced. Had to chuckle when--after the Avengers survive the building collapsing on them and return to the mansion--YJ had the time to create/find a sling for his injured arm but poor Simon couldn't find a shirt. I think one of Shooter's pet subplots was to establish as Wanda-Simon attraction (so the shirtless state Simon frequently found himself in was to emphasize Simon's physical sex appeal). Shooter had touched upon this idea in his earlier Avengers issues, but this subplot was dropped when he stopped writing Avengers. The idea seems to have made an impression on Byrne, however--we're probably all familiar with his handling of Wanda and Simon during his West Coast Avengers stint. And as we all know, Busiek put Wanda and Simon together for a while too.
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Post by ultron69 on Jul 8, 2014 14:30:18 GMT -5
I have these issue in color, and I still thought that Nefaria looked a lot like Graviton, sharkar.
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Post by sharkar on Jul 9, 2014 15:39:36 GMT -5
I have these issue in color, and I still thought that Nefaria looked a lot like Graviton, sharkar. Ah, good to know I wasn't the only one who thought that, Ultron--thanks! Guess I can still hold off on getting those reading glasses. But yikes, looks like I have been remiss and still need to read/review #166. Stay tuned...
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 9, 2014 22:53:14 GMT -5
I have these issue in color, and I still thought that Nefaria looked a lot like Graviton, sharkar. Ah, good to know I wasn't the only one who thought that, Ultron--thanks! Guess I can still hold off on getting those reading glasses. But yikes, looks like I have been remiss and still need to read/review #166. Stay tuned... OMG, yes-- EVERY single time I read one or the other of those little arcs (which were only a very few months apart, IIRC), I can't recall at first which one it's going to be. The two bozos look incredibly similar, are both arrogantly self-absorbed megalomaniacs, and both stumble to some degree because of their own vanity (masquerading as a sense of mortality in Nefaria's case). I was confused by them at the time since it's easy to lose track of specific names and all-- I truly thought we'd somehow been given the same villain again, or that I'd somehow missed some crucial backstory somewhere, or something. . . HB
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Post by sharkar on Jul 15, 2014 17:19:23 GMT -5
You know, HB, something in the way you phrased that jogged my memory that you'd mentioned that before--and sure enough, you and Spiderwasp and others had discussed the similarity back in that fun Cover Talk thread! vplexico.proboards.com/post/38963/threadHmmm, I suppose Sal--I'd guess he designed Graviton's look, or maybe it was Romita--or the others involved weren't anticipating that Nefaria would pop up in the Avengers a mere six months after Graviton, despite Shooter's penchant for throwing increasingly omnipotent antagonists at the Avengers.
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Post by ultron69 on Jul 16, 2014 9:57:06 GMT -5
You're right, Sharkar, omnipotence is another thing that Graviton and Nefaria have in common. Then there's Korvac!
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Post by sharkar on Jul 16, 2014 17:08:27 GMT -5
You're right, Sharkar, omnipotence is another thing that Graviton and Nefaria have in common. Then there's Korvac! Right, Ultron. I'd mentioned Korvac a few posts ago in this thread, and also Mordru, whom Shooter created during his first stint with the Legion of Super-Heroes (back in the Silver Age). The notion of an all-powerful, seemingly unbeatable antagonist was a pet theme of Shooter's. Was he exploring the concept, limits, etc., of absolute power? Or did he gravitate to writing these characters out of practical necessity: were all-powerful opponents were realistically/dramatically the only real foes that could present a viable challenge to superhero teams laden with power (LSH, Avengers)? You know, speaking of speculating on what's behind creative decisions, I'd opined earlier in this thread that Byrne and/or Shooter wanted Simon's bare chest depicted to play up Simon's sex appeal, and I think that's a valid reading. But here's what Byrne himself wrote over at his Robtoics forum: he stated that he shredded Wondy's costume here because he didn't particularly care for that particular Perez-designed costume (Byrne says Perez got better at costume design as Perez matured as an artist). From JB in 2012: "I'm a big fan of the Gil Kane school of costume design, where costume elements follow the anatomy lines of the body. That's my biggest beef with this Wonder Man suit -- too much of it seems to go AGAINST the lines of the body. This was early days for George tho. Many of his later designs are quite brilliant."
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 18, 2014 16:59:05 GMT -5
Surely I'm not the only person 'round here to whom this comes off as sounding rather jerkishly arrogant-? I'm assuming it's unintentional, but it gives the impression that Perez' work really couldn't be considered valid until it received the veteran Byrne seal-of-approval. Jeesh.
HB
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 19, 2014 9:54:12 GMT -5
You know, HB, something in the way you phrased that jogged my memory that you'd mentioned that before--and sure enough, you and Spiderwasp and others had discussed the similarity back in that fun Cover Talk thread! vplexico.proboards.com/post/38963/threadHmmm, I suppose Sal--I'd guess he designed Graviton's look, or maybe it was Romita--or the others involved weren't anticipating that Nefaria would pop up in the Avengers a mere six months after Graviton, despite Shooter's penchant for throwing increasingly omnipotent antagonists at the Avengers. Just one short year ago, it was! I did remember talking about it, but couldn't remember when or where. I'm actually kind of pleased (and relieved) to see that I've been consistent in my assessment. . . ! (Gosh, Shar, if we only we were still exalt-capable, I'd be sendin' you one. . . ) HB
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