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Post by humanbelly on Mar 3, 2014 12:58:27 GMT -5
You're right, you're right-- that was very much the impression that panel w/ Monica & Jan gave. But rather than address it directly after that, it's just sort of lost in the "wonder" of witnessing the UniMind and then the heat of battle w/ Maelstrom. And in fairness to Stern, actually "dealing" with the pseudo-genocide issue at this point would only inevitably prolong getting rid of the bulk of the Eternals, which seems to be one of the major goals for this arc. So yeah, Jan & Monica become a quick, useful proxy for Stern's likely point of view, I'd buy that.
Hunh. That's even another parallel w/ the Inhumans. . . the casual subjugation of an "inferior" race within their population (the Alpha Primitives, remember?). I have no doubt that there's been plenty of discussion on Inhumans/Eternals redundancy out there somewhere, by folks much more familiar w/ both groups than I am. . .
HB
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Mar 3, 2014 13:53:51 GMT -5
You're right, you're right-- that was very much the impression that panel w/ Monica & Jan gave. But rather than address it directly after that, it's just sort of lost in the "wonder" of witnessing the UniMind and then the heat of battle w/ Maelstrom. And in fairness to Stern, actually "dealing" with the pseudo-genocide issue at this point would only inevitably prolong getting rid of the bulk of the Eternals, which seems to be one of the major goals for this arc. So yeah, Jan & Monica become a quick, useful proxy for Stern's likely point of view, I'd buy that. Hunh. That's even another parallel w/ the Inhumans. . . the casual subjugation of an "inferior" race within their population (the Alpha Primitives, remember?). I have no doubt that there's been plenty of discussion on Inhumans/Eternals redundancy out there somewhere, by folks much more familiar w/ both groups than I am. . . HB What about Olympian gods / Eternals redundancy...? I mean, I can buy the fact that certain eternals, due to similar personality traits, or even physical attributes, could create identity confusions for "mere mortals" living in Greece during the Bronze Age (not to be confused with the Silver Age of comics). But the fact that said eternals happened to have, to begin with, NEAR IDENTICAL NAMES to the same olympian gods they were being confused with is just too much to ask of the suspension of disbelief from your readers, even if they are 8 years old.
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Post by ultron69 on Mar 4, 2014 7:57:03 GMT -5
HB, I agree with you that the Eternals seem like an Inhumans ripoff, but weren't they both basically created by Kirby? So, he'd be ripping off himself?
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Post by sharkar on Mar 4, 2014 10:37:20 GMT -5
HB, I agree with you that the Eternals seem like an Inhumans ripoff, but weren't they both basically created by Kirby?... Right you are, Ultron69. Hidden/superpowered races (Inhumans, Eternals, the New Gods stuff Kirby did for DC, to name a few) was indeed a favorite topic for Kirby, one that he never got tired of exploring. A great resource that examines this concept (known as Vril-ya) in comics is Christopher Knowles's book Our Gods Wear Spandex.
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Mar 4, 2014 15:08:32 GMT -5
HB, I agree with you that the Eternals seem like an Inhumans ripoff, but weren't they both basically created by Kirby?... Right you are, Ultron69. Hidden/superpowered races (Inhumans, Eternals, the New Gods stuff Kirby did for DC, to name a few) was indeed a favorite topic for Kirby, one that he never got tired of exploring. A great resource that examines this concept (known as Vril-ya) in comics is Christopher Knowles's book Our Gods Wear Spandex.
I hear ya, sharkar. I read that book not long ago,
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Post by ultron69 on Mar 5, 2014 7:57:07 GMT -5
HB, I agree with you that the Eternals seem like an Inhumans ripoff, but weren't they both basically created by Kirby?... Right you are, Ultron69. Hidden/superpowered races (Inhumans, Eternals, the New Gods stuff Kirby did for DC, to name a few) was indeed a favorite topic for Kirby, one that he never got tired of exploring. A great resource that examines this concept (known as Vril-ya) in comics is Christopher Knowles's book Our Gods Wear Spandex.
Cool. I had to google Our Gods Wear Spandex. It looks interesting. I'll have to check it out one of these days.
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 6, 2014 14:17:25 GMT -5
Here I am. As I've stated many, many times, Milgrom was the artist when I first started reading Avengers, so in many ways in my opinion his is the definitive look of the characters. I do however agree with HB on Sinnot's contribution, something I've become more aware of during his run on FF, where he made Byrne's characters look far more muscular and handsome - two traits well visible with his Avengers. As for the writing, what I liked the most is that it's fun. The Avengers are having a good time, go to parties, play with each other, mess around a bit and so on. Hercules remarks this directly in #250, and it serves to highlight the underlying friendship within the team.Not that it's all fun and games though - the Vision was at his creepiest and his smile is indeed so nuanced to be a tad disturbing, and Cap was having a particularly rough time in his own book, in what's probably my favourite arc of his. And, IIRC, in #250 Iron Man is in fact Rhodey, even though the thing is never mentioned in the story. Starfox is a character I've always liked. Again, happy personality, inspired look and an unusual power set. But I agree with Wasp when she feels a little unconfortable after learning of his "pleasure powers", it's the kind of thing that could get creepy very easily, and probably wouldn't pass scrutiny in this day and age, which is why we see so little of him now (I remember reading he had to be defended from a rape accusation by She-Hulk a few years ago). In his own way, he is actually not very different from Moondragon from this point of view. Moving on to the story, Maelstrom and his lackeys are somewhat uninteresting villains, I was, and still am, far more interested in the enigmatic Death Urge, even though his eventual arc with the Great Lakes Avengers will be disappointing. The Eternals aren't very compelling either, even though some of them have inspired designs. Sersi is a nice character, and I did like when she became a regular member during the jacket area, but she is still not that memorable, and the whole Uni-Mind thing does look like an easy way to get rid of most of them. More in general, I often feel that Marvel's hidden races leave something to be desired... for one thing, there are too many of them (Eternals, Mole Men, Lava Men, Deviants, Atlanteans, Inhumans, Lemurians and who knows how many more), and for another they just serve as convenient plot device when a random army / weapon / power source is needed. I do however like the complicated history of the Marvel's Earth, especially after having read this website: reocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7160/wicksint.html (anyone else knows it?) Funnily enough, issue #249 is my favourite of the whole lot. The combined forces of Avengers, FF and Asgard fighting the armies of Surtur adds weight to the Surtur Saga taking place in Thor's own book, and justifies both his departure from the group for the time being, and the merry return of Hercules (Hogun: "he is nearly as mighty as Thor"; Herc: "no, I'm mightier"). When they switch back, it will be under more tragic circumstances, after the Mansion Siege storyline, and moving on towards a darker, grittier set of stories (at least by those standards). I also liked the two Avengers teams united in #250, everyone with their own thought bubbles. It gave Tigra a nice little spotlight. As someone (Ultron? Starfoxxx?) said, Captain Marvel / Monica can be difficult to handle given her enormous powers, so I liked that it fell upon one of the weakest Avengers to shake her out of her fear. They are uneasy, but to me it was hard to tell whether it was because of the Eternals' self-righteousness, or of their power level. They certainly don't attempt to speak up in the Deviants defense or to have them morphed back to living beings.
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Post by ultron69 on Mar 7, 2014 10:14:56 GMT -5
Yes, Shiryu, it was probably me that pointed out that it's tough to keep Cap Marvel from taking over in a fight. By the way, nice Marvel Chronology link!
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 9, 2014 20:36:00 GMT -5
I just never in my life thought I'd ever hear such an abundance heart-felt, proud, fond, thoughtful praise for Stern/Milgrom/Sinnott run of The Avengers-! Even as someone who doesn't share that opinion by a long stretch, I find it incredibly charming-- and it's really made me look at this particular arc with a much more appreciative eye. Move over, Kree/Skrull War! Take a hike, Korvac Saga! Call in sick, Mansion Siege! Sooner or later, Marvel's gonna strike reprint GOLD with this, er, gem--!
And it really has been nice to look in on some characters that I liked so much during a relatively forgotten point in their history.
I know it was mentioned earlier, but it bears repeating-- the New Logo for this period is sooooo underwhelming. . . and I wonder if that also colors my memory of these issues? It's just. . . bland and sort of smacks of "trendy" graphics, y'know? Albeit a little dangerously early-70's. (Think "ABC Wednesday Movie of the Week".)
And I have to say that the covers didn't work for me when I was receiving the issues via mail subscription. 247 & 248 are 'way too similar to the casual glance, and actually 249 & 250 have a unified feeling of visual clutter to them as well. But-- as with the interior pages-- I think there was some seriously weak color-composition work going on that made the problem worse. LOTS of white backgrounds. . . LOTS of mid-tone color choices w/out much interesting contrast. Man, I'm no artist, but I know my eye enjoys a more interesting and dynamic field of color. Not MORE colors-- but better use of when and how they're used in relation to each other.
HB-- never too let to critique, eh?
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 10, 2014 6:54:10 GMT -5
I just never in my life thought I'd ever hear such an abundance heart-felt, proud, fond, thoughtful praise for Stern/Milgrom/Sinnott run of The Avengers-! Even as someone who doesn't share that opinion by a long stretch, I find it incredibly charming-- and it's really made me look at this particular arc with a much more appreciative eye. Move over, Kree/Skrull War! Take a hike, Korvac Saga! Call in sick, Mansion Siege! Sooner or later, Marvel's gonna strike reprint GOLD with this, er, gem--! You know, I'd honestly rate this run over the Kree-Skrull war every day of the week
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Post by sharkar on Mar 10, 2014 9:56:39 GMT -5
I really enjoyed reading these issues. Actually I've enjoyed reading all of the CBC's selections so far--thanks, selectors!--but as I'd recently bought that Absolute Vision Book 1 (containing some issues prior to #246-250), this latest arc was a great supplement and really resonated with me. Some thoughts: I am now officially a Starfox fan, I loved him throughout these issues. What a great artistic subject--jawline, profile, hair, sharp defined facial features, etc.--well done by Milgrom, Sinnott, and the rest of the "crew." Great to see Sersi too (loved her costime makeover). Vision is getting creepier and creepier. OMG, those smiles (as Ultron noted)! It must have been interesting to read these issues on a montly basis and wonder what when Vizh was going to going to go over the edge. Ultron, looks like the cover masthead was changed to "The Mighty Avengers" back with issue #241. I guess Marvel thought this would make the cover flashier and translate into sales (the title didn't change in the indicia). www.coverbrowser.com/covers/avengers/5Milgrom's art--seems to be mostly breakdowns (and not full pencils) in this arc--is straightforward and clear, and reminds me of when Sal B. started working on the Avengers. Like Sal, Milgrom provides accessible storytelling (IMO). However I found the multiple inkers/finishers within a single issue a bit dizzying. (And yes, HB--that's definitely Byrne on that page in #246.) Was Sinnott that busy that he couldn't do the whole book here? Yes, I know he was also handling the Thing's comic at the time, and several issues of Marvel Fanfare. And it's been noted, by Joe himself and others, what a perfectionist he was (read: he took his time inking/finishing, didn't rush through jobs). But for some sort of visual consistency within an issue, it would have been nice to see one inker/finisher per said issue. Just sayin'. Some comments about #250's art in particular: I hated the shot of Monica changing into her costume--very old school DCish, specifically Silver Age Wonder Woman. The "cinematic" shots of the team in the quinjets--that seemed kind of dated to me too, like chaneling 1960s Steranko. Wow, that shot of Maelstom growing--worthy of Gil Kane! And...why was Starfox's hair totally different on the last page?! C'mon, the wind had never mussed his hair up like that before, all of a sudden the breezes are whipping his hair into a new 'do? d**n it, his hair needs to be swept back from his forehead to reveal his noble brow. Despite these minor quibbles, the characterizations were so rich--Vision, Monica, Starfox, Wasp, Wanda, She-Hulk, everyone. This is what I read comics for, the characters. And reading these issues, plus the stuff in the AV trade, I can really see why Stern is so revered. This era seems like a particularly good time to have been a regular reader of the Avengers and I'm sorry I missed it, but at least I'm getting the chance to explore this era more fully now, with the helpful guidance of the members of the CBC.
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Post by sharkar on Mar 10, 2014 10:08:33 GMT -5
Right you are, Ultron69. Hidden/superpowered races (Inhumans, Eternals, the New Gods stuff Kirby did for DC, to name a few) was indeed a favorite topic for Kirby, one that he never got tired of exploring. A great resource that examines this concept (known as Vril-ya) in comics is Christopher Knowles's book Our Gods Wear Spandex.
I hear ya, sharkar. I read that book not long ago, Cool--it's a great book, isn't it, Bong? Ultron, there's a specific chapter on Kirby, but really the entire book is fascinating for those interested in knowing about sources of comic book fiction (myths, 19th century gothic fiction, sci fi, etc.) or even popular fiction in general. Highly recommended.
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Post by starfoxxx on Mar 10, 2014 15:56:21 GMT -5
I hear ya, sharkar. I read that book not long ago, Cool--it's a great book, isn't it, Bong? Weird, as I sit typing this post (at my local library) I JUST picked up Our Gods Wear Spandex (I had put it on hold last week). Can't wait to check it out! And as far as this period in Avengers history, Stern's run was really cool, right? This is why AVENGERS became my favorite comic (and there were some good titles to choose from in the early 80s, FF, Amazing and Spectacular Spidey, X-men, heck I'd even take the NEW Defenders over the crap titles of today!) When I first joined AA, I felt like I really missed out on the "good old days" of the 70's Avengers, Englehart's run, etc.... The stories my elder Assemblers remembered so fondly. But Stern's 80s stuff was pretty classic in it's own right! Nothing that came after is comparable, IMO, except maybe Busiek's first year with Perez on volume 2. These stories ARE a big part of MY childhood. Enjoy! starfoxxx
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Post by ultron69 on Mar 11, 2014 7:52:20 GMT -5
I just never in my life thought I'd ever hear such an abundance heart-felt, proud, fond, thoughtful praise for Stern/Milgrom/Sinnott run of The Avengers-! Even as someone who doesn't share that opinion by a long stretch, I find it incredibly charming-- and it's really made me look at this particular arc with a much more appreciative eye. Move over, Kree/Skrull War! Take a hike, Korvac Saga! Call in sick, Mansion Siege! Sooner or later, Marvel's gonna strike reprint GOLD with this, er, gem--! You know, I'd honestly rate this run over the Kree-Skrull war every day of the week Is this what's known as bear baiting?
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 12, 2014 19:37:16 GMT -5
You know, I'd honestly rate this run over the Kree-Skrull war every day of the week Is this what's known as bear baiting? Can't. . . breathe. . . Can't. . . breathe. . . Ha! Nah, I am really, really glad this little arc got chosen. My initial response to the choice was that it might fall almost into the realm of being a chore, and that proved not to be the case at all. It's probably the third time I've read it, and I got soooo much more out of it this time, and honestly enjoyed it. As has been mentioned by many, the writing & characterization hold up quite well over the course of time, and I'm pretty sure I've just breezed through in the past. It's definitely still better comics than at least three eras we saw later on. By far. By 'way, 'way far. HB
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 12, 2014 20:21:14 GMT -5
You know, I'd honestly rate this run over the Kree-Skrull war every day of the week Is this what's known as bear baiting? Gh! To be honest, it's part to do with how much I like Stern's arc, and part to do with how little I like the K-S War. Perhaps it's because I read it so many years after its original release, with its impact and scope having been inevitably diminished by successive, bigger stories, but to me it got pretty dull after an interesting beginning, and suffered from a very uninteresting - almost messy - finale. If the other topic went beyond five, I could almost find it a place in my worst-10-Avengers-stories list... just not my cup of tea.
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Post by ultron69 on Mar 13, 2014 6:58:49 GMT -5
Is this what's known as bear baiting? Gh! To be honest, it's part to do with how much I like Stern's arc, and part to do with how little I like the K-S War. Perhaps it's because I read it so many years after its original release, with its impact and scope having been inevitably diminished by successive, bigger stories, but to me it got pretty dull after an interesting beginning, and suffered from a very uninteresting - almost messy - finale. If the other topic went beyond five, I could almost find it a place in my worst-10-Avengers-stories list... just not my cup of tea. I loved the Kree-Skull War, but do agree that the ending was rather unsatisfying. Still, a fun ride for me up until then, though I, too, read it many years after its original release.
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Post by ultron69 on Mar 13, 2014 7:00:37 GMT -5
Is this what's known as bear baiting? Can't. . . breathe. . . Can't. . . breathe. . . Ha! Nah, I am really, really glad this little arc got chosen. My initial response to the choice was that it might fall almost into the realm of being a chore, and that proved not to be the case at all. It's probably the third time I've read it, and I got soooo much more out of it this time, and honestly enjoyed it. As has been mentioned by many, the writing & characterization hold up quite well over the course of time, and I'm pretty sure I've just breezed through in the past. It's definitely still better comics than at least three eras we saw later on. By far. By 'way, 'way far. HB Including the bomber jacket era.
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 13, 2014 18:29:31 GMT -5
Can't. . . breathe. . . Can't. . . breathe. . . Ha! Nah, I am really, really glad this little arc got chosen. My initial response to the choice was that it might fall almost into the realm of being a chore, and that proved not to be the case at all. It's probably the third time I've read it, and I got soooo much more out of it this time, and honestly enjoyed it. As has been mentioned by many, the writing & characterization hold up quite well over the course of time, and I'm pretty sure I've just breezed through in the past. It's definitely still better comics than at least three eras we saw later on. By far. By 'way, 'way far. HB Including the bomber jacket era. Can't breathe again. . . ! Can't breathe again. . . ! Hey, it's funny you should mention that, 'cause whereas I personally would have put this story well back of the Gatherers/BomberJacket Era before, it really did move up to exactly that level for me (keep in mind that I'm the one guy 'round here who always kinda liked that period). What's this Eternals/Maelstrom arc better than? It's DEFINITELY better than: The Crossing; Heroes Reborn Avengers; that long, steadily declining run after the Gatherers w/ Deathcry & "contemporary youth" Hercules; the entirety of the volume III run after Busiek left; The Crossing Line (horrid arc w/ Alpha Flight and Atlanteans and the Russian Navy lost in multiple dimensions); any Bendis-era Avengers title after "Breakout" (sorry Woodside, ol' chum-- but hey, I'm still going to grant that "Breakout" was an engaging and well put-together little tale-- kept me on the edge of my seat, it did!); and let's just go ahead and say that it was better than FORCE WORKS, too. Sure, I'm ALSO the guy who kind of liked the struggling story trying to happen in that book, buuuuuuut I will take ol' Al's artwork 100 times out of 100 over the 53 or so folks that artisticked all over that title during its brief, troubled run. HB
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Post by starfoxxx on Mar 13, 2014 18:42:20 GMT -5
I will take Al Milgrom's Avengers artwork over Leinil Yu's Avengers artwork ANYDAY OF THE WEEK!
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 13, 2014 22:24:31 GMT -5
Been kind of busy lately but finally weighing in. I, like many of you others, am a big fan of the Stern period. I love seeing the Avengers unified and fun. I particularly like that the first part of this story manages to carry on just fine without any of the big 3 involved. Don't get me wrong, I love Cap, Thor, and sometimes (Though not always) Ironman but I think the Avengers are big enough and strong enough to survive without them. I particularly loved the party scene and the guest appearance of She-Hulk, the interesting dynamics between Wanda and Vision, and the great scenes with Monica and her parents. I knew very little about the Eternals before this story and it was a nice introduction for me.
The main thing I didn't like was the covers. I don't like when covers depict scenes completely inaccurately and that was certainly the case with 247. Not only was Starfox NOT dragged into the Uni-mind, but when asked, he says he has no reservations. 248's "It's raining Eternals" was more accurate but goofy. It's no wonder that some people don't take this era as seriously as they might with covers that are tongue in cheek. 249 is better but a tad crowded feeling. I'm okay, though overwhelmed with the other 2. The stories here are so much better than the covers.
For what it's worth, I actually enjoy this era more than the Kree/Skrull War too. I've always thought it was okay and important for its scope but a bit overrated. Go ahead. Let the stoning begin.
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Mar 14, 2014 11:11:21 GMT -5
Including the bomber jacket era. Can't breathe again. . . ! Can't breathe again. . . ! Hey, it's funny you should mention that, 'cause whereas I personally would have put this story well back of the Gatherers/BomberJacket Era before, it really did move up to exactly that level for me (keep in mind that I'm the one guy 'round here who always kinda liked that period). What's this Eternals/Maelstrom arc better than? It's DEFINITELY better than: The Crossing; Heroes Reborn Avengers; that long, steadily declining run after the Gatherers w/ Deathcry & "contemporary youth" Hercules; the entirety of the volume III run after Busiek left; The Crossing Line (horrid arc w/ Alpha Flight and Atlanteans and the Russian Navy lost in multiple dimensions); any Bendis-era Avengers title after "Breakout" (sorry Woodside, ol' chum-- but hey, I'm still going to grant that "Breakout" was an engaging and well put-together little tale-- kept me on the edge of my seat, it did!); and let's just go ahead and say that it was better than FORCE WORKS, too. Sure, I'm ALSO the guy who kind of liked the struggling story trying to happen in that book, buuuuuuut I will take ol' Al's artwork 100 times out of 100 over the 53 or so folks that artisticked all over that title during its brief, troubled run. HB No need to feel lonely there, hb! I love the Harras Avengers as well (though not necessarily ´cause of the bomber jackets...). I just think it was one of those periods, not unlike the one we´re discussing here with Stern, where a grouping of Avengers really geled and they became a band of friends and comrades, as well as a fighting unit. One of those times when a line up just clicks. And truly I also didn´t mind at all the long time in developing Gatherers plot. In my estimation Proctor (I do think the name is lame, though) and the Gatherers are unfairly underrated when recounting the Avengers foes. Too bad they were finished by the end of the storyline. I believe they would have made excellent recurring foils for the assemblers. The one character which didn´t quite work for me during this period was the Black Widow. When Cap was out of the picture she became the chairperson, but we actually saw very little development coming out of her being the leader, character or plot-wise. Especially so since she appointed the Black Knight the field leader. Her leadership just didn´t leave much of a mark on the team, it seems to me.
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Post by sharkar on Mar 18, 2014 10:38:48 GMT -5
Okay, I am someone who read the Kree-Skrull issues on a monthly basis back when they were first published, and I can tell you I was not a fan of that storyline. I found it much too long and meandering; every freaking month I was like "Isn't this dumb story over yet???". The only thing that interested me about it was the prospect of Vision-Wanda interaction and the "forbidden" romance aspect. But that turned out to be minimal in these issues, much to my disappointment. I did like it when Vizh and Clint would say "We have to rescue Wanda--and the guys", LOL. And there's a great panel that I've mentioned here before, when Clint, facing certain danger, simply says "I read ya, Cap", that's remained with me all these years since I first read these issues. But for the most part I found the story and art convoluted. What turned me off as a young reader back then? Let me count the ways! The inclusion of characters like Rick and Mar-Vell and the crossover with the Inhumans, who had their own feature in Amazing Adventures (which I sometimes read), biothered and confused me. I also got the feeling that nice guy Roy Thomas let Neal Adams indulge himself. I liked Adams's art over at DC, and on the X-Men a year or so earlier, but here I found his work increasingly sloppy in many cases--rushed looking, with unfinished faces, for example. The multiple inkers (Palmer, Al Weiss) on an issue or two didn't help; and neither did the multiple pencilers within an issue--just added to a disjointed impression, despite Palmer's inking and despite the other artist being J. Buscema. The much-ballyhooed "Journey to the Center of an Android" just seemed like a detour--was it really necessary?--and from what I have read, surprised Thomas. The Legion of Super-Heroes had already done a similar "Fantastic Voyage" sequence earlier and with less self-conscious fuss. Adams's depiction changed RT's original intended conception of the Vision--"every inch a human being, except that all his bodily organs are constraucted of synthetic materials!", since Adams depicted the Vision's innards as being mechanical or robotic. And get this, in Comic Book Artist #3 (and elsewhere), Adams says his concept for these issues would have spanned "10-30 issues". I mean, come on. I was p-o'd there was no payoff to the Vizh-Wanda romance at the arc's conclusion. Coincidentally, I stopped reading comics a few months after the completion of this arc (due to many factors, but largely due to the unreliable comic book distribution in my neighborhood candy stores--this was back in the days before there were dedicated comic book stores, kids). So, fast forward to 2006. I discovered this board/forum and my love for old Marvel was re-ignited. IIRC at the time this board included Ian Watson's great essay "On the Kree-Skrull War" (which was also included in the first Assembled book) and I gained an appreciation for the arc's significance, if not the actual story. I have a note to myself that I'd jotted down in the Assembled book --"All these years later I get it--it was 'about' [involvement in] Vietnam!" Well, maybe not exactly (though there's that too)...but whatever its structural flaws, I came to realize the K-S arc to be a milestone in comic book storytelling: it was different and ambitious; and it was, in retrospect, an ancestor to the protracted Marvel Universe crossover/multi-issue epics that we all know and love today. While I'm still not crazy about the overall story/art, IMO the K-S War reads much better as a collected trade (which I picked up a few years ago). And for a condensed version, check out What If #20 (What If the Avengers Fought the Kree-Skrull War Without Rick Jones?"), available in the What If? Classic tpb #3. I loved it!
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 19, 2014 20:55:51 GMT -5
Ten to THIRTY ISSUES??!!?? Good night nurse-- one to 2-1/2 years of a monthly title on one story arc? Man, that Neal Adams was ahead of his time, wasn't he? Just born too soon to be part of that writer-wave of the oughts of the 21st Century. Talk about decompression-- it could possibly have lasted longer than most actual wars do. . .
No, that would have been the wrong direction at the wrong time, no question.
HB
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Post by sharkar on Mar 20, 2014 10:37:34 GMT -5
Ten to THIRTY ISSUES??!!?? Good night nurse-- one to 2-1/2 years of a monthly title on one story arc? Man, that Neal Adams was ahead of his time, wasn't he? Just born too soon to be part of that writer-wave of the oughts of the 21st Century. Talk about decompression-- it could possibly have lasted longer than most actual wars do. . . No, that would have been the wrong direction at the wrong time, no question. HB I know--Adams had all these grandiose (IMO) ideas about it, and he's a great draftsman and all, but geez, he couldn't even make the deadlines here (hence Big John B. stepping in)! Anyway, here are some excerpts from the 1998 CBA #3 Neal Adams interview, which I read in the Comic Book Artist Collection Volume 1. Adams: "My memory—and I'm sure it's different from Roy's—says Roy had wanted to do this "Kree-Skrull War," and in the issues he'd done—I think it was two issues before mine— the Kree and the Skrulls ended up going to war in some far-off galaxy, but he didn't know for sure if I wanted to continue on that plotline, or go on to something else. He asked me how I felt about it. I thought, gee, a war, I'd love to do that." Adams: "My view of the War was very expansive—I was headed toward a 10- to 30-issue miniseries of an intergalactic war between the Kree and the Skrulls using the Earth as a battlefield. I thought, this is gonna be one hell of a series." Adams: "I suggested to Roy the idea of doing the next story from the point of view of a classroom in the future, telling the story of how the Kree-Skrull War got to Earth... he didn't like it very much. I said I thought I could make it work; he said okay, go ahead." OK, I found that this interview (or most of it) is actually available online, so here's the link. The Kree-Skrull stuff is about three-quarters of the way through, but the entire interview is fascinating and illuminating. twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/03adams.html
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 21, 2014 7:34:11 GMT -5
This was a solidly interesting article, Shar-- thanks for posting the link. It kind of happened at that fortunate point in time (a little over 15 years ago, and roughly 15 or so years after the events being discussed) where Adams had enough distance from the events to capture some personal objectivity while still recalling them clearly, and yet not so long that his memory may be overly-littered w/ embellishment or later regrets. He comes of as self-possessed, certainly, but not necessarily self-absorbed, which is just fine. And I completely get that, while he was unhappy w/ how many things played out (and doesn't seem to have any sense of personal responsibility for that), he never seems to take it personally, and he goes out of his way to praise his collaborators even when he's unhappy with them. Really, much more of a gentleman in this interview than I'd expected.
Mind you, he does get a bit heady and artistically ethereal sometimes (I'm just not sure exactly how an inker's "sincerity"-- which he mentions a couple of times-- comes through on a page. But maybe that's fodder for a more refined eye than mine.). And he does place a LOT of significance on an awfully small body of work-- as he considers himself a Conan artist (one issue, #37-- which, admittedly, is fantastic), and a War of the Worlds/Killraven artist (again, one issue)-- but he is what he is. And boy, the interview was particularly enlightening as to the way Marvel worked in the late Silver/early Bronze age, wasn't it? Heck, I used to wonder what Marvel's editors did to fill an 8 hour day. . . now I'd have to ask the same question of the writers under that system! Were they scripting, what, one page every 2 or 3 hours? (heh-- okay, I'm being unduly facetious. . . )
HB
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 23, 2014 18:08:50 GMT -5
10 to 30 issues would have been far, far too much, even though I'm sure there would have been very little talking and plenty of interwining events. Still, it's such a wide range, I know they were used to make things up as they went back then, but 20 issues would involve a lot of making up... hard to see how it wouldn't damage the main storyline or take it off course. As a side note, time to move on to our next reading. WB hasn't been around much recently, so I'll leave it to Dr. Bong to decide what we read and discuss next (as long as that's not a problem for WB of course). Good Doctor, you are up
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Mar 24, 2014 17:51:59 GMT -5
I didn´t have a lot of time available lately for commenting at length on the last chapter of our book club, but I do want to ask if, to anyone´s knowledge, Tigra helping out Monica was ever referenced again?. It seems like a missed opportunity to create a bond between the two.
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Mar 24, 2014 18:13:09 GMT -5
I choose: Colonel Mustard with the candlestick at the library...! No, wait, wrong scenario... . Lets rewind: I choose (as long as Shiryu has them available) Avengers Annual # 15, West Coast Avengers Annual # 1, Avengers Annual # 16 and West Coast Avengers Annual # 2.
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 25, 2014 17:37:27 GMT -5
I choose: Colonel Mustard with the candlestick at the library...! No, wait, wrong scenario... . Lets rewind: I choose (as long as Shiryu has them available) Avengers Annual # 15, West Coast Avengers Annual # 1, Avengers Annual # 16 and West Coast Avengers Annual # 2. Lol, Colonel Mustard would indeed be a problem xD I have all the annuals mentioned, so it's not a problem for me. Off we go, 2 weeks as usual. And, as usual, if there's any problem, just drop me a pm Not to my knowledge. Both characters haven't been used all that much, especially together.
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