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Post by sharkar on Apr 24, 2013 18:04:44 GMT -5
Ah, thanks for posting this particular cover, Spiderwasp. I love Byrne's great homage covers! [/img] This one, on the other hand, despite its campiness, makes good use of the obvious Johnny Storm similarity.[/quote]
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 25, 2013 13:13:58 GMT -5
The best thing about that cover is the Silver Age style quotes from the characters.
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Post by wundagoreborn on Apr 25, 2013 14:32:13 GMT -5
maybe she chose NOT to use her full power, just to entertain herself. beings who don't seem to have any higher calling to be on the team beyond doing it for the grins, as it were. HB I think Sersi is a hoot. The fact that powerful, strong-minded females are too rare in comics can make us want the ones that come along to be role model characters. But the world ain't like that. Some folks who could make a big difference in the world are just out to have fun. There should be more strong women all over the place in the comic world, like there are in the real world. Then a realistic distribution of them can be oriented to a higher calling and not. (and they can all be gorgeous to watch, like my girl Sersi, and I wouldn't complain about that either)
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 25, 2013 21:40:52 GMT -5
Next up is a tough one. Stingray just hasn't been around much so there aren't many covers to choose from. It's a shame he doesn't have more covers though. I love his costume. He's kind of background but that's the beauty of that costume. When he fans it out, it still looks cool. However, he's not the best suited for floating heads. lol, it looks like somebody forgot to draw in a face.
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Post by starfoxxx on Apr 25, 2013 22:06:38 GMT -5
Stingray----hands down the greatest costume in super-hero history.
They seriously need to make a Marvel Legends Stingray!
He needs to reappear in one of the current Avengers books, IMO.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 26, 2013 5:08:03 GMT -5
Stingray----hands down the greatest costume in super-hero history. They seriously need to make a Marvel Legends Stingray! He needs to reappear in one of the current Avengers books, IMO. It's just bad luck that his promotion to corner-box status coincided with that dreadful, dreadful "Crossing Line" arc, which meandered so incomprehensibly as to become nearly a parody of a "big" storyline. One of my least-favorite stories ever. HB
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 26, 2013 12:12:04 GMT -5
Stingray----hands down the greatest costume in super-hero history. They seriously need to make a Marvel Legends Stingray! He needs to reappear in one of the current Avengers books, IMO. I agree. It doesn't even matter what his powers are. He just looks so darn cool!
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Post by wundagoreborn on Apr 26, 2013 14:17:45 GMT -5
You all are making me feel better. I always thought myself odd to be so jazzed about Stingray - a comparatively minor character. But that suit is just so cool...
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 26, 2013 23:27:12 GMT -5
Let the controversy begin. I'm now up to the Amazing Spider-man. Personally, I don't have a problem with Spidey being an Avenger. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with him being on a regular roster for so long. I think he works better as an occasional or part-time member. Anyway, here's my cover choices. I like this one a lot. Simple, but says it all. Like with some of the other characters, I know he didn't become a member at this point but it was offered. Since he became a member later, for me, it still counts. Besides, I like that this was before a Spider-man crossover within the first ten issues became mandatory for every book. He looks ridiculously goofy here. I think that's why I like it. It's so Spidey.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 27, 2013 19:37:06 GMT -5
Let the controversy begin. I'm now up to the Amazing Spider-man. Personally, I don't have a problem with Spidey being an Avenger. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with him being on a regular roster for so long. I think he works better as an occasional or part-time member. Anyway, here's my cover choices. I like this one a lot. Simple, but says it all. Like with some of the other characters, I know he didn't become a member at this point but it was offered. Since he became a member later, for me, it still counts. Besides, I like that this was before a Spider-man crossover within the first ten issues became mandatory for every book. He looks ridiculously goofy here. I think that's why I like it. It's so Spidey. I like that you've chosen covers from such a broad span of time. Now, correct me if I'm mis-remembering, but was issue #11 the one where Spidey was actually a robot for most of the issue? Something to do with Immortus in Central America, or something? Boy, and what's goin' on with his mask, there, on the cover? That's always bugged me (heh)-- somebody forget to check what Spidey's face looked like?? I've always been in the "Like Spidey on the Team" camp. . . as long as it's Real Spidey and not Bendis Spidey. He was just horribly misused in New Avengers from pretty much the get-go, IMO. He became nothing but a wise-cracking, insincerely self-deprecating, immature, self-absorbed schmuck. Where was the guy who ALWAYS chose to do the right thing in a pinch. . . and did it quickly and decisively? Ugh. But earlier? That run where he did finally get his I.D. card and all, and they ended up having a battle in the Vault, or something? Thought he was great working with everyone. . . and that writer did a great job of integrating him-- and then writers switched abruptly, and Cap did a complete about-face on whether Spidey was effective, and invited him to go Reserve instead. Sheesh. But I know I'm very much in the minority on this. It's just. . . Spidey IS one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes-! And he OFTEN has to band with others to face greater threats. How can he not qualify?? HB
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Post by Marvel Boy on Apr 28, 2013 0:33:34 GMT -5
Probably my favorite Stingray cover ever: Let the controversy begin. I'm now up to the Amazing Spider-man. Personally, I don't have a problem with Spidey being an Avenger. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with him being on a regular roster for so long. I think he works better as an occasional or part-time member. Anyway, here's my cover choices. I agree with this. Spidey is, at heart, a loner. So if he drifts in and out and helps on certain missions, that makes better sense to me than him being available all the time.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 28, 2013 12:50:21 GMT -5
We're really into the era of controversial Avengers here. I know Rage was very unpopular but the character did turn out to be fairly decent in New Warriors. I think he could have been here if they hadn't made him come on quite so strong. Also, that costume was awful. He was meant to challenge people's prejudices by letting us see how they judge a book by it's cover. This doesn't work so well though when the book's cover consists of a menacing mask, lots of leather and spikes. A big white guy wearing the same costume would have gotten same reaction. The idea for the character was good. The execution - not so much. Anyway, onto his covers. Decent enough cover. Does that count as a floating head? Odd that I had more trouble finding strong covers for major Avengers like Hercules and She-Hulk than I did for a relatively minor one like Rage. I think that's another thing that hurt him. He was too crammed down our throats. Again, nice cover though (If you can get past that costume.) And once again, who takes front and center? (Well, technically Dr. Doom, but of the Avengers I mean)
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Post by wundagoreborn on Apr 29, 2013 10:17:23 GMT -5
"Tetrarchs of Entropy" is just screaming to be a band name. ;D
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 29, 2013 13:59:11 GMT -5
I like that you've chosen covers from such a broad span of time. Now, correct me if I'm mis-remembering, but was issue #11 the one where Spidey was actually a robot for most of the issue? Something to do with Immortus in Central America, or something? Boy, and what's goin' on with his mask, there, on the cover? That's always bugged me (heh)-- somebody forget to check what Spidey's face looked like?? I've always been in the "Like Spidey on the Team" camp. . . as long as it's Real Spidey and not Bendis Spidey. He was just horribly misused in New Avengers from pretty much the get-go, IMO. He became nothing but a wise-cracking, insincerely self-deprecating, immature, self-absorbed schmuck. Where was the guy who ALWAYS chose to do the right thing in a pinch. . . and did it quickly and decisively? Ugh. But earlier? That run where he did finally get his I.D. card and all, and they ended up having a battle in the Vault, or something? Thought he was great working with everyone. . . and that writer did a great job of integrating him-- and then writers switched abruptly, and Cap did a complete about-face on whether Spidey was effective, and invited him to go Reserve instead. Sheesh. But I know I'm very much in the minority on this. It's just. . . Spidey IS one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes-! And he OFTEN has to band with others to face greater threats. How can he not qualify?? HB I'm with you on Spidey, HB. I hate Wolverine on the Avengers for a variety of reasons, but Spidey seems like a fairly natural fit. People say "he works better alone" but I disagree. He's generally done well with others (Marvel Team-Up, anyone?) and he's certainly not antisocial. Also, Byrne had Spidey officially join the Avengers, at Cap's invitation, I think in #317, with the space adventure with Nebula and the Stranger. However, Fabian Nicieza took over in #324, and basically his first official act was, as you say, so have Cap do an about face and tell Spidey he'd be better as a reserve member (the old "you work better alone" malarkey).
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Post by wundagoreborn on Apr 30, 2013 11:49:00 GMT -5
Also, that costume was awful. He was meant to challenge people's prejudices by letting us see how they judge a book by it's cover. This doesn't work so well though when the book's cover consists of a menacing mask, lots of leather and spikes. A big white guy wearing the same costume would have gotten same reaction. Yeah, you can't turn on a dime like this. Rage's visual portrayal and his name ran counter to 30 years of Marvel vocabulary that made it easy to instantly tell the hero from the villian.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 30, 2013 14:58:16 GMT -5
Okay, I know I'm going to be in the minority here, possibly even the Lone Ranger, but I loved the idea of Sandman as an Avenger. Now, before you throw stones, hear me out. I have plenty to say on this one. First, Sandman's tale was one of ultimate redemption that happened in just the right way, slowly. He started off a plain and simple villain. In Marvel Team Up #1, we began to see another side of him, a more human side. Later, in an issue of Marvel Two In One, he famously shared a beer with Ben Grimm and we saw him as more human still. By the time he became an Avenger, we had seen that life had led him down the wrong track but that, despite not being the sharpest tack in the box, he was actually a pretty decent chap. Unfortunately, the writers dropped the ball. He appeared very briefly and then left the team over a misunderstanding that occured in Spider-man and was never even mentioned in Avengers. Any possible chance for success was thrown away so quickly that, in hindsight, one can easily wonder why he was ever there. However, if you follow him into the pages of Silver Sable, you can see what could have been. He became a valuable and trustworthy part of the Wild Pack. His redemption, to me, is right up there with Hawkeye, Black Widow, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Medusa, Swordsman, the original Thunderbolts and many other characters who crossed over through the years. It was a transformation that, IMO, worked and turned Sandy into one of my favorite characters, perhaps because he was such an unlikely hero. The part that really makes me mad at Marvel was the turn he took a few years back, shortly before the release of Spider-man 3. The Wizard implanted something in his brain that forced him to revert to his old ways. The Avengers, Spider-man, Silver Sable, Thing - no one questioned it. Suddenly, he was just back to being a bad guy. I feel that he earned their trust enough for them to have investigated what was going on with him. It was very similar to the way they just accepted Ms. Marvel's announcement in #200 or never bothered to look for Jocusta after she first wandered away. The Avengers really aren't the best at looking after their members. Anyway, now that I've completed my longest rant in this thread - there aren't many covers to look at, but here goes: This was the best cover the guy had. I was pleasantly surprised that he managed to make the front of this classic though. This is one of my all time favorite covers. I even have it on a t-shirt. However, it's kind of sad when a character was on so few that the top of his head has to make my list.
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Post by wundagoreborn on Apr 30, 2013 15:27:51 GMT -5
I'm glad somebody liked him.
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 30, 2013 15:52:12 GMT -5
The only Sandman as an Avenger comics I have are a couple of issues with him as a reserve member, but for some reason, it didn't bother me, even though I'm generally not too crazy about long time villains becoming heroes. Anyway, it seemed somewhat natural to me, maybe because it seemed to me that it came about from that classic Marvel Two-In-One where he's having beers with the Thing, though I'm sure I'm wrong about that.
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Post by Marvel Boy on May 1, 2013 21:38:31 GMT -5
This was during the period where, due to life experiences at that time, I fell out of reading the title so I've never read any of Rage's appearances.
Nor did I know that Sandman was a member too. Shame about that though. Sounds like an interesting character arc that got retconned due to outside influences.
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Post by spiderwasp on May 1, 2013 22:00:31 GMT -5
No long rants this time. Mostly because I just don't have much to say about Machine Man. Not a bad storyline or cover but both were just kind of forgetable, IMO Similar cover but less impressive image of MM Machine Man only seemed to be utlized when the team fought someone metallic.
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Post by spiderwasp on May 2, 2013 21:18:52 GMT -5
Sometimes Marvel introduces new characters and they throw them at us hard and fast in an obvious attempt to force us to love them (Mantis, Rage, Sentry). Other times they just seem to throw the idea at the wall to see if it sticks and then don't seem to give it another thought. Living Lightning was one of those characters. I liked him. He seemed to have a lot of potential and Marvel could use a good Hispanic hero but who knows where he is now. Miguel was introduced as a misunderstood villain. That's original. Perhaps one of the problems was that, even though it was great that he was Hispanic, in his lightning form it was a little hard to tell his ethnicity. It's not that they did use him much inside the books, they're just weren't many covers. Then, after WCA ended, he had a couple of brief appearances, a revelation that he was gay, and then...nothing. I'd really like to see him return.
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Post by ultron69 on May 3, 2013 7:56:55 GMT -5
OK, Living Lightning was after I'd stopped collecting comics, and I'd stopped collecting West Coast Avengers before I stopped Avengers, so I have to admit, I've never heard of Living Lightning until now.
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Post by wundagoreborn on May 3, 2013 13:11:52 GMT -5
I thought Living Lightning was cool. Agree he was underused/treated like an afterthought. It would be nice to see him pop up again somewhere.
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Post by Marvel Boy on May 5, 2013 0:24:06 GMT -5
Hm, I read those issues with Machine Man but sadly, can't remember much about his membership with the team. He's one of those Marvel characters you know about but who seems to inhabit the fringes of the MU. The only Machine Man story I recall in any fashion is: As for Living Lightning, yeah, never read of him either. Looks like Marvel's answer to DC's Johnny Thunderbolt. You mentioned a revelation that he was gay. I wonder if that was an original aspect of the character or something added later on in hopes of adding appeal/interest to him.
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Post by humanbelly on May 5, 2013 8:55:13 GMT -5
We're really into the era of controversial Avengers here. I know Rage was very unpopular but the character did turn out to be fairly decent in New Warriors. I think he could have been here if they hadn't made him come on quite so strong. Also, that costume was awful. He was meant to challenge people's prejudices by letting us see how they judge a book by it's cover. This doesn't work so well though when the book's cover consists of a menacing mask, lots of leather and spikes. A big white guy wearing the same costume would have gotten same reaction. The idea for the character was good. The execution - not so much. Anyway, onto his covers. Decent enough cover. Does that count as a floating head? Oh golly, SO MANY enjoyable topics of late--- and I've fallen mightily behind! (Hmm-- possibly to no one's particular regret!) But I did want to chime in sort of on Rage's behalf back when he popped up here. 'Cause the basic premise for this character was very compelling. . . even kind of touching: a very bright, bookish, kind of sweet adolescent kid has the usual "accident" that mutates him into a truly massive behemoth of a super-powered fellow. Sort of a Marvel Universe version of the the Tom Hanks film "BIG". The potential here is GREAT. But as mentioned before, it was messed up by giving him an absurd code-name that would seem to have absolutely nothing to do with Elvin's personality--- and hinges in an absolutely cringe-worthy manner on an assumption that there must be some universal "Black Rage" that will manifest in even a kid like this. What Elvin did NOT seem to be about (in the Avengers, at least) was being a kid prone to surrendering to "Rage". Just ridiculously short-sighted and inconsistent with the character. And the costume-- yes, I totally agree. Unnecessarily frightening, and honestly, putting forward a very ugly stereotype as well. Why does the African-American hero have to be dressed like a street-hood/violent killer?? I will say, though, that I liked his better-written moments-- an exchange he had with Steve (on the subway?) about how BOTH of them could be perceived as big, scary guys does stand out. If they had simply stuck with the premise of nice-kid-thrust-into-a-giant's-physique, there would have been a lot more to work with on an individual & personal level. REALLY another opportunity for the ol' With Power Comes Responsibility lesson, yes? I do wish I had followed New Warriors, if only to track his progress as a character. HB
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Post by humanbelly on May 5, 2013 21:09:52 GMT -5
Okay, I know I'm going to be in the minority here, possibly even the Lone Ranger, but I loved the idea of Sandman as an Avenger. Now, before you throw stones, hear me out. I have plenty to say on this one. First, Sandman's tale was one of ultimate redemption that happened in just the right way, slowly. He started off a plain and simple villain. In Marvel Team Up #1, we began to see another side of him, a more human side. Later, in an issue of Marvel Two In One, he famously shared a beer with Ben Grimm and we saw him as more human still. By the time he became an Avenger, we had seen that life had led him down the wrong track but that, despite not being the sharpest tack in the box, he was actually a pretty decent chap. Unfortunately, the writers dropped the ball. He appeared very briefly and then left the team over a misunderstanding that occured in Spider-man and was never even mentioned in Avengers. Any possible chance for success was thrown away so quickly that, in hindsight, one can easily wonder why he was ever there. However, if you follow him into the pages of Silver Sable, you can see what could have been. He became a valuable and trustworthy part of the Wild Pack. His redemption, to me, is right up there with Hawkeye, Black Widow, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Medusa, Swordsman, the original Thunderbolts and many other characters who crossed over through the years. It was a transformation that, IMO, worked and turned Sandy into one of my favorite characters, perhaps because he was such an unlikely hero. The part that really makes me mad at Marvel was the turn he took a few years back, shortly before the release of Spider-man 3. The Wizard implanted something in his brain that forced him to revert to his old ways. The Avengers, Spider-man, Silver Sable, Thing - no one questioned it. Suddenly, he was just back to being a bad guy. I feel that he earned their trust enough for them to have investigated what was going on with him. It was very similar to the way they just accepted Ms. Marvel's announcement in #200 or never bothered to look for Jocusta after she first wandered away. The Avengers really aren't the best at looking after their members. Still catchin' up, but I definitely wanted to chime in on the missed opportunity with the Sandman, as well. SW, it looks like you are definitely not Lone Rangering your position at all-- there were a couple of appreciative responses, and I wholeheartedly agree w/ your initial post on Sandy's (provisional) time w/ the group. I'm guessing that the long, thoughtful rehabilitation process of this character (over the course of many, many months and multiple titles) was probably derailed by shifts in editorial and/or corporate policy. . . or by some manner of struggle between creative forces w/in the company. It was being handled SO well for anyone that was tuning into it. . . and then it was just arbitrarily cast aside. (Possibly to make him more closely identifiable w/ the movie version??) You can all but hear some authority wonk saying, "No, the Sandman's always been a villain. You need to make him a villain again. I don't care how you do it. . . just do it." I mean, he had gone from being a run-of-the-mill thug-type with an interesting power (who had inadvertantly been made more interesting by having vastly different speech patterns employed over the years), to being a character with personal depth that could actually elicit a sympathetic response from readers. There was an unexpected humanity that could be related to. Can't have that, for god's sake. Last I saw of him, he'd succumbed to an extremely strangely-manifested strain of multiple personality disorder in the last issues of Spiderman that I received. Why was he a great potential Avenger? 1) Geeze, he's the epitome' of "Former Bad Guy Tryin' to Make Good"--! Like Hawkeye, Wanda, Pietro, Swordsman, WonderMan, etc. 2) He's actually been in several Team and/or Partnership situations already. . . he already has quite a wealth of experience in that arena-- not a rookie at all. 3)He's both powerful AND confident in his abilities, and clearly carries a measure of pride about them. 4) He's really probably a "nicer" guy (in his rough, unpolished way) than other Avengers like Moondragon, Dr. Druid, Mantis, or even Pietro. 5) Man, he's quite a powerful individual. Like Plastic Man, he's probably vastly more powerful than he even realizes. . . Bring 'im back, folks! HB
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Post by spiderwasp on May 6, 2013 18:59:42 GMT -5
This character is currently known as Arachne and, to my knowledge, hasn't been seen seen the Omega Flight (I think it was Omega) series soon after Civil War. I'd really like to see her again because I always liked Julia Carpenter as Spiderwoman much better than Jessica Drew. Nice front and center image Julia had a good costume for showing up well in the midst of a group Another good cover, this time with an all-around Spider theme
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Post by Shiryu on May 6, 2013 19:28:46 GMT -5
To update a bit, Julia Carpenter has now replaced Madame Web as a seer. She is seen on and off in Spider-Man or Scarlet Spider, usually warning the hero about some impending menace.
Good old Sandman, whom I also liked a lot as a hero, has been imprisoned by Spidey (who, as you may already know, is in fact Doctor Octopus in Peter's body). He still shows the occasional sign of redemption, but is also still definitely a bad guy.
Oh, and his return to villany was another gift from John Byrne, who simply decided he disliked Sandman as a hero, and had him saying he had been faking during all those years. The Wizard intervention was a late retcon in response to the angry fans' reaction.
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Post by humanbelly on May 6, 2013 20:42:02 GMT -5
Good old Sandman, whom I also liked a lot as a hero, has been imprisoned by Spidey (who, as you may already know, is in fact Doctor Octopus in Peter's body). He still shows the occasional sign of redemption, but is also still definitely a bad guy. Oh, and his return to villany was another gift from John Byrne, who simply decided he disliked Sandman as a hero, and had him saying he had been faking during all those years. The Wizard intervention was a late retcon in response to the angry fans' reaction. Really?? It was that blasted John Byrne AGAIN?? As much as we beef about this crop of modern writers taking unjustified liberties w/ the characters, I guess it's worth remembering that this particular artist/writer superstar really did set the precedent for it a decade or so earlier. "I don't like how other writers have grown this character, so I'm just going to arbitrarily change it on a whim. Because my perspective and personal taste clearly have the ascendant priority. . . " Gnargh! Where is he now, by the way-?? HB
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Post by Shiryu on May 6, 2013 21:12:38 GMT -5
Really?? It was that blasted John Byrne AGAIN?? As much as we beef about this crop of modern writers taking unjustified liberties w/ the characters, I guess it's worth remembering that this particular artist/writer superstar really did set the precedent for it a decade or so earlier. "I don't like how other writers have grown this character, so I'm just going to arbitrarily change it on a whim. Because my perspective and personal taste clearly have the ascendant priority. . . " Gnargh! Here you have it. Scroll down the article (which is very good in its own right) and you see Byrne's pages with Sandman's return to being a bad guy. And the Thing is greatly out of character there too goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2013/03/28/abandoned-love-so-is-sandman-a-good-guy-or-a-bad-guy-or-what/Over at IDW I think.
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