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Post by humanbelly on Nov 14, 2012 22:13:51 GMT -5
Okay, see-- here's the thing. I picked up my Avengers Marvel Masterworks a couple of nights ago (issues 1-10), and read the first issue for the first time in a LONG time. . . and probably read it more carefully and thoughtfully than I ever have. And whole bunches of thoughts, factoids, and observations popped into my head. I thought, what the heck, I can share them here, and if they spark any conversation (of the deep, deep, backstory nature), well, that's great. And if they don't, well heck, no harm done to anyone, and at least I have the personal satisfaction of gotten them off my chest. So, here goes. . .
Avengers #1
Fact: Loki is technically the longest-appearing character in the Avengers history. He's the first "in-scene" person we see in the opening splash panel. Who knew?
Observation: For a guy who's banished, Loki sure is able to do a lot of damage on earth via his, uh, magical Asgardian powers! Projecting images, altering radio signals, etc, etc. ..
Observation: Yeesh, in order of their appearances here. . . 1) Hank tries to leave Jan behind, curtly chastises here, and gruffly affirms his bachelorhood. 2) Jan swoons over Thor, and Hank chews her out. 3) Jan moons over Thor again, Hank snaps at her. 4) Hank sends Jan to directly confront the Hulk. (Hmm- perhaps an effort to rid himself of this annoying pest. . . ??)
Factoid: Hunh. Rick Jones really WAS responsible for the original team literally coming together-- although it was via a mis-directed and mis-received (via Loki) radio signal meant to reach the FF.
Factoid: Hunh. Ant-Man really WAS the guy that turned the tide and defeated Loki.
Thoughts: As we've all chatted about in posts past-- yeah, this is not a strong issue in so very many ways. The plot is almost comical in its reliance on accident, happenstance, coincidence, and COMPLETELY implausible events to keep the action moving along. The Hulk hiding out in a circus, disguising himself as, uh, a life-like robot, disguised as. . . a clown? Because. . . an immensely powerful robot at that time would have been more "believable" to the circus audience?? Flying ants can fly several thousand miles in just a few hours?? And dig instant trenches in the ground?? And that 's just the low-hangin' fruit. I know the book is said to have been produced in a HUGE hurry (which I think is reflected in the rather simple, plain art w/ nary a background to ooh & ahh over), but honestly, it comes off as being written and drawn literally on the fly, until Stan & Jack realized they'd hit page 20 and needed to wrap the thing up!
Observation: The entire group didn't really function or exist as a whole team until, like, the last two pages. And the Hulk's motivation for turning around and joining up is pretty darned hard to swallow.
Okey-doke-- and I'll hold off there, and probably add more on as the motivation hits me. Well. . . unless some folks implore me to stop before too much damage is done. .
HB
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 14, 2012 22:48:05 GMT -5
You know, when I got my DVDs and started reading the Silver Age stories of all the main Marvel books, Avengers was the one I was most disappointed with.
Amazing SM hit its stride almost immediately, and so did FF. Thor and Iron Man took slightly longer. But Avengers? it took forever to have one really good story. In fact, I'm tempted to say it didn't really happen until Stan left and a perhaps more focused Roy came on board.
There just is a sense that Stan wasn't too confortable with writing these characters together. He keeps relying on borrowed villains for plot purposes, and on internal conflicts for characterization purposes, but most stories are really thin, at times bordering on ludicrous.
It sort of reminds me of a movie where everything is about the all-star cast but no one paid any attention to the story.
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Post by tomspasic on Nov 15, 2012 9:30:03 GMT -5
One might argue that the very nature of the Avengers as a team book with a changeable or rotating cast mitigates against a particular set of themes or a stylistic motif. Every other marvel book of the 60's had a stable cast (at least in terms of the headline characters) which meant the "feel" of the book could be established and developed based on those characters. Avengers played musical chairs from issue 3 or so. If main characters were not joining or leaving then they were changing costumes, names or power sets. I think this makes it harder for a writer to establish a feel within a title. In FF the different events or plots were bounced off of the familiar Reed/Sue/Ben/Johnny characters. The X-men also had a stable cast plus an actual theme, the interaction of 2 "species" or "races". Daredevil, Spider-man, Hulk, Thor etc had one main character whose life and adventures set the tone. Arguably, the Avengers periods that "worked" best had a stable core of characters to anchor any comings and goings, and by then a "rogues gallery" of foes gave a sense of purpose lacking in "a disparate bunch of heroes beat up Loki". I actually think that from a purely technical point of view the individual earliest avengers comics were every bit as good (or bad) as any other thing produced at the same time, as stand alone comics. But at the back of the reader's head is this nagging feeling of "I don't get it. What's the "hook" to this series? Why are they coming together?" It's when you read the issues sequentially that you can see Avengers is missing the soap-opera style developments other books have. You could probably read the first 15 or so issues in almost any order and they would make almost as much sense. There was not much sense of anything developing. They immediately got an HQ and government backing. Cap joining lent the book some sense of direction and purpose, allowing the on-going Zemo plots. But you couldn't hang the whole book on him, so the book still felt vaguely lacking. Then the Kooky Quartet was set up and suddenly we have 4 characters who can interact and grow, and the book feels like it has it's own identity, rather than a collective one based off it's members.
So weaknesses that you would excuse or ignore in the older FF or X-men comics get noticed a bit more in the earlier Avengers. To be blunt Hank was a jerk to Jan in Tales to Astonish too. As Thor/Blake tended to be to Jane Foster, Tony to Pepper, Matt Murdock to karen Page etc etc.
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 15, 2012 10:22:01 GMT -5
To be honest, I'm equally unimpressed by the Kooky Quartet era. I think my gripe is that Lee doesn't seem to build any "mythology" around the Avengers, the way he did with other characters.
In ASM 1-10, we have Chameleon, Vulture (twice), Dr Octopus, Sandman, Lizard and Electro. They were all new, original characters, and are all still prominent 50 years later.
The FF have Skrulls, Doom, a revival of Namor and the Puppet Master. Again, all new characters who still play major roles now. Soon afterwards, we get the Watcher, the Blue Area of the Moon, Molecule Man, and so on.
Thor was lacklustre when written by Larry Lieber, but the moment Stan got on, he created Enchantress, Executioner, Cobra, Mr Hyde. Not to mention Loki, of course.
Each of these books made an immediat impact by creating its own mythology, which eventually became the mythology of the whole Marvel Universe. The Avengers instead kept relying on borrowed villains: Namor, Dr Doom, Hulk, the Masters of Evil. There were moments of brilliance, like Kang, Immortus or Nefaria, but, much like Magneto over at UXM, they were far from the threat we know now. It's like the Avengers were low on Stan's priority list. I don't think it's a coincidence they are the only ones whose most important nemesis, Ultron, wasn't created by Stan himself.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Nov 15, 2012 10:49:10 GMT -5
I used to think much the same as Shiryu -that the Avengers only really took off when Roy Thomas took over. I still tend to think that was really the Avengers first Golden Age, but I don't think that Stan Lee's era should be underestimated. It's far more remarkable than you're giving it credit for. To really see what he's done you should compare it with the early stories of the team they were based on -the JLA. The difference is immense. The JLA aren't really individuals. Their roles are entirely functional in the plot. There's no real explanation for why the JLA are together -it's just assumed that this is the sort of thing that super-heroes do. Sure the sexism about 'females' and other such attitudes are hilariously dated now. You shouldn't overlook that it's partly deliberate though. The characters are supposed to be self-absorbed, argumentative prima-donnas and driven by their own agendas. He's gone a step further than he did with the FF. You don't see this at all in the JLA. Heroes are just presumed to get along and do their jobs. Of course the Marvel characters don't view it as their jobs. The gender attitudes really pay off here. After all, girls like Sue Storm and Jan probably would rather go to a fashion show than look for the Hulk. Similarly Hank and Reed probably do want to focus on their experiments, and do get frustrated by distractions. Chasing after masked menaces isn't their real job and this is a fundamental shift in approach (best displayed in Amazing Fantasy 15 of course). Them forming by accident rather than design (as presumably the JLA were) is also very much the point IMO. Rick's message being diverted by Loki resulting in inspired chaos leading to an ad hoc alliance is not some half baked plot. This is Stan's answer to DC. They shouldn't just get together due to some kind of superhero solidarity, as if they were freemasons or something, able to contact each other on the super powered old boy network. They're individuals doing their own thing and they need to be thrown together in this chaotic way for the team to form. Stan's thought about this stuff, make no mistake. The real kicker is the Hulk leaving though. DC put all their top characters together in one book, Stan Lee does it but comes up with the far out notion that they won't get along, don't trust each other and one of them quits, really bitterly -and never comes back! He even ends up as an opponent, and not through mind control or something like that but because they just can't get along. Similar themes would be touched on again when Spidey could've joined, and again with the Kooky Quartet (and with Wonder Man and the Swordsman too). Stan is repeatedly putting the question -what does it mean to be an Avenger? Another key part of the iconography is Avengers Mansion. Stan puts it in a real world location rather than the usual futuristic base (a while back I even looked up its Wikipedia page and found these delightful details: According to Stan Lee, who co-created the Avengers:[1]
There was a mansion called the Frick Museum that I used to walk past. I sort of modeled Avengers Mansion after that. Beautiful, big, so impressive building, right on Fifth Avenue.
In real life, 890 Fifth Avenue is 1 East 70th Street, the location of the Frick Collection. The Frick's building is, like Avengers Mansion, a city block-sized former family home. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_Mansion So it is not only realistic, but actually a real building, and, whilst slightly disguised, a real address!). The real Avengers mansion! Why is this not in the movie? Also the Avengers are given a touch of class, made a part of the establishment by their location. The mansion has always given the Avengers a certain grandeur that other teams can't capture. The need for Tony Stark's generosity gives it a foothold in reality. They even have a butler (although IIRC he only appeared in Tales of Suspense early on). Real world logistics of operating in Manhattan are regularly featured and the press's perception is also touched on. Some of this stuff would be updated and given much fuller treatment in the Shooter years -but the roots of it can be seen in Stan's era and that's significant. I tend to agree that Stan was more consistent on titles like FF, Spidey and X Men, but don't let the things that creak nowadays stop you from appreciating how remarkable his innovations really were.
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comaboy
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 34
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Post by comaboy on Nov 16, 2012 8:33:22 GMT -5
With all respect to Stan Lee, Avengers Mansion doesn't start to look like the Frick until the late 70s if not the early 80s. Before then it's portrayed as a townhouse.
And sadly the reason it was not in the movie is because it's just not as sexy as a skyscraper located where the MetLife building is.
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 21, 2012 8:30:41 GMT -5
I think I'm maybe half-way on board with you there, Crimson C. You can just about imagine Stan bouncing around his office, coming up w/ ways to make "his" super-hero collective the "ANTI-Justice League"-- if theirs goes right, his goes left; if theirs co-operates, his bickers & obstructs; if theirs is seamlessly organized, his struggles to even get through a routine meeting; if membership is an honor & privilege for them, it's almost perceived as an imposition and burden for (at least one of) his; if theirs formed with a crystal clear sense of purpose, his would practically blunder into forming-- with the chances of NOT forming a team almost as high as the ones of their coalescing. (As an aside-- a PERFECT "What If-?" moment: Page 22 of the 1st issue, panel 5-- What if Hank simply hadn't spoken up to suggest forming a real team? Everyone was about to leave at that moment-- and that would have been it-! Game over. I guess the Earth would have indeed fallen to the Space Phantoms. . . . In fact, that sounds familiar. WAS that a What If-? story??)
And the energy, excitement and innovation that Stan invests in that aspect of this issue is what carries the day. That, and his willingness to rely on his own easy, deft (for the time) way with dialog and rather hyperbolic narrative style. Like any overextended college freshman, he's not afraid to let some deadline-inspired, hastily-seized BS smooth over some worrisome potholes in his execution. But still-- it makes for a very uneven finished product. Beyond his initial inspiration and "thesis" (I guess), I don't have really any sense of his having thought the team through any further than even the second issue, with the Hulk's leaving. And even that moment at the end seems to come awkwardly out of the blue. There are several issues in this first dozen or so where as I reader I always get a sense of Stan sitting at his desk, having just finished working out Spidey, FF, Tales to Astonish, Thor, Strange Tales & Suspense, and looking at a blank page in his typewriter with AVENGERS written at the top, and going, "Okay. . . now what-? Where were we, anyhow?". My own instincts suggest that the book's early success had less to do with Stan's grand design than his remarkable ability to take bits and pieces of circumstances and inspirations, and improvise brilliantly with them.
I did not know there was a real-life building for ANY iteration of Avengers Mansion! That is about the coolest thing ever-- thanks for the pic-! While we see them using the mansion interior in issue #2, even, I'm not sure when we see an exterior (I'll keep us all posted). But, man, if it's only a townhouse I'm not sure how in the world they could've landed an out-of-control quinjet on its roof in issue #63-! The Frick, here, at least looks like it might have some sort of plausible surface area for that. In my mind's eye, the mansion really always needed to be adjoined by a city-block sized warehouse, anyhow. . . the roof is FLAT. It's ALWAYS flat-!
HB
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Post by Marvel Boy on Nov 24, 2012 1:11:15 GMT -5
Okay, for my ongoing edification, which line-up is the Kooky Quartet and why that particular nickname for them?
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 24, 2012 9:31:32 GMT -5
Okay, for my ongoing edification, which line-up is the Kooky Quartet and why that particular nickname for them? Ah yes-- it's nice to have an opportunity to revisit a bit of deep history on your behalf here, Marvel Boy. The line-up is the one that was announced by the end of Avengers #16, when the bulk of the Founding Members decided they needed a break. Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man & the Wasp took a leave of absence, and left a very reluctant Cap in charge to hold down the fort. In their place were newly-recruited, former sort-of-villains Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and the Scarlet Witch (you may already know all of that). So, "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" at that point consisted of two non-powered guys, a mutant super-speedster, and a mutant witch with unpredictable powers (one day, she'd go head-to-head with the enchantress. . . the next day, a simple hex might make her faint from fatigue. . . ). Personally, I don't remember ever hearing the "Cap's Kooky Quartet" label until it was used in issue #151 (I believe) as part of a news announcer's "retrospective" on the Avengers-- although it was clearly intended to come across as being a long-used, familiar pop-media label for the team. Although a bit forced and a bit corny and certainly a minor retcon, it did have the effect of grounding our (the readers') perception of how the team was portrayed in the MU's public eye in a more familiar, real-world fashion. Less ticker-tape parade-ish, more Entertainment Tonight-ish. So, even though that tag doesn't seem to have appeared until about 10 years after that specific quartet ceased to be (when they were re-joined by Hank & Jan), it certainly has hung around ever since. HB
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 24, 2012 15:58:48 GMT -5
I'm gonna go ahead and poke away at issue #2, although it certainly doesn't circumvent prior conversation. I'm just getting farther ahead with reading these. . .
Observation: I believe this falls under the heading of "Legendary No-Prize Worthy Mistakes"-- although it may be before No-Prizes were actually being bandied about. Both on the cover and EXTREMELY prominently on the splash page (and throughout about half the issue) Jack draws the Hulk w/ three- count 'em, THREE-- toes. And the poor guy never has more than four any other time. Now, I'll be the first to concede that the Hulk's feet probably present any artist w/ a tough challenge, as it's hard to make them NOT look comically large or small or chunky or whatever-- but yeesh, anatomical accuracy and panel to panel consistency would seem to be a bare minimum-!
Opinion: See, I feel like the art is mostly rushed-looking again. Half or more of the panels have little or no background at all-- although the figures seem generally dynamic and fun. Paul Reinman's inks? Kind of basic, say? Not really helping Jack at all, here? Anyone concur?
Powers/Weaknesses #1: Uh. . . SpcPhntom Iron Man uses. . . air jets to COMPLETELY incapacitate both Giant-man & the Hulk by spinning them in the air? Really?
Powers/Weaknesses #2: Thor turns the tables on SpcPhntom Iron Man by. . . raining on him and causing him to instantly freeze up with rust. Yyyyyyyeah. Because that ALWAYS happens to metal the moment water touches it. And lord knows Tony would NEVER be prepared for his Armour to get wet-- come on, Stan--- you're making my case for writing-on-the-fly far too easy---
Powers/Weaknesses #3: The SpacePhantom obviously (somehow) duplicates the full range of powers and abilities of his body-swapped victims, whether they're natural or mechanical. When he becomes the Hulk, he is clearly as strong as the Hulk. This guy should be completely unbeatable.
Deus ex Machina: Well, the day is unwittingly saved by Thor because, uh, Space Phantoms can't displace Asgardians (although no explanation is given why), and SP takes himself out of the battle with an unexpected self-exile to Limbo. Teamwork ratio? Pretty much a zero-point-zero, as the Avengers fought each other throughout most of the issue. Hmm-- not too dissimilar from the first issue. The Anti-JLA model does still seem to be holding strong.
Factoid: Busiek's AVENGERS FOREVER actually makes this terribly silly story work much better once he retcons it. Reading it in that broader, Kang-influenced context adds a depth that was definitely not really there as first presented.
Observation: Hank's bein' MUCH nicer to Jan this issue.
Factoid: Yep, page one, there we are in Tony's library. Where they "meet regularly to get to know each other better"-- which I think would be DREADFULLY awkward since the three most alpha males have deeply-guarded secret identities. The answer to any question would likely have to be, "None of your !@#$ business!"
Opinion: I do think Stan's script melds delightfully with Jack's action throughout this issue. Very entertaining, with a lot of small, humanizing touches. Just, geeze, what a silly plot.
HB
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Post by spiderwasp on Nov 24, 2012 20:55:33 GMT -5
Factoid: Yep, page one, there we are in Tony's library. Where they "meet regularly to get to know each other better"-- I always thought it was strange than they'd make statements like that at all in issue #2. How regularly could they have met? It implies a history of togetherness that just wasn't there. Stan did the same kind of thing in FF #2. As soon as groups were formed, they were famous and established. Of course this opens things up for any "Untold Tales" out there. Those kind of stories are actually needed in order for the concept to make sense.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Nov 24, 2012 23:16:06 GMT -5
Okay, for my ongoing edification, which line-up is the Kooky Quartet and why that particular nickname for them? Ah yes-- it's nice to have an opportunity to revisit a bit of deep history on your behalf here, Marvel Boy. The line-up is the one that was announced by the end of Avengers #16, when the bulk of the Founding Members decided they needed a break. Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man & the Wasp took a leave of absence, and left a very reluctant Cap in charge to hold down the fort. In their place were newly-recruited, former sort-of-villains Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and the Scarlet Witch (you may already know all of that). So, "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" at that point consisted of two non-powered guys, a mutant super-speedster, and a mutant witch with unpredictable powers (one day, she'd go head-to-head with the enchantress. . . the next day, a simple hex might make her faint from fatigue. . . ). Personally, I don't remember ever hearing the "Cap's Kooky Quartet" label until it was used in issue #151 (I believe) as part of a news announcer's "retrospective" on the Avengers-- although it was clearly intended to come across as being a long-used, familiar pop-media label for the team. Although a bit forced and a bit corny and certainly a minor retcon, it did have the effect of grounding our (the readers') perception of how the team was portrayed in the MU's public eye in a more familiar, real-world fashion. Less ticker-tape parade-ish, more Entertainment Tonight-ish. So, even though that tag doesn't seem to have appeared until about 10 years after that specific quartet ceased to be (when they were re-joined by Hank & Jan), it certainly has hung around ever since. HB I knew of that line-up change but didn't know that nickname belonged to them. I thought it was just a fan appellation, didn't know it was actually used within the book itself. Although I can see why they were described as such by the public MU, especially if, as suggested, the group was already well-established and famous by #2. They lost some powerhouse members only to be replaced by people you hope won't stab you in the back. Not exactly the prime members you want to defeat an Ultron or Thanos should they threaten. Although I find it strange, with all the NOW! noise about mutants becoming a larger, more involved part of the MU with wider membership in the Avengers, that the first real line-up change of the group featured two mutants.
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 25, 2012 14:54:20 GMT -5
Factoid: Yep, page one, there we are in Tony's library. Where they "meet regularly to get to know each other better"-- I always thought it was strange than they'd make statements like that at all in issue #2. How regularly could they have met? It implies a history of togetherness that just wasn't there. Stan did the same kind of thing in FF #2. As soon as groups were formed, they were famous and established. Of course this opens things up for any "Untold Tales" out there. Those kind of stories are actually needed in order for the concept to make sense. I imagine there are a couple of factors that led (albeit unwittingly) to an artificial sense of prior history. One is that the book started out bi-monthly (went monthly with issue #6, in fact), so in Stan's mind they'd been in "existence" for quite some time before he actually had to write that next issue, and may have been writing with the assumption of an amount of "past" that he simply hadn't given us. The second factor- which better historians than I may have a handle on- also plays into the bi-monthly lag, in that it seems like Marvel in 1963 may still have been trying to maintain some semblance of real-time elapsing in the MU, and that two months would simply have been too long for the team to sit idle. To be honest, I just kind of suspect a touch of carelessness--- "the audience will never know" mentality--- which may have been totally accurate. I believe the old Rampaging Hulk Magazine #9 was set in that gap between issues 1 & 2 (although it was likely later retconned away in the comic book), and there's the more recent Avengers #1-1/2, which I don't have. ALSO, I believe Joe Casey did a little bit of filling-in with his first Earth's Mightiest Heroes series. In a way, it's always easier for me as a reader to just assume we don't get every single story in the team's lives, and that other ones are simply waiting for their turn for the spotlight. Again, Joe Casey w/ his second EMH mini-series does this brilliantly w/ a Hank Pym/Super adaptoid arc. So. . . it's do-able. HB
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 28, 2012 22:08:40 GMT -5
I did not know there was a real-life building for ANY iteration of Avengers Mansion! That is about the coolest thing ever-- thanks for the pic-! While we see them using the mansion interior in issue #2, even, I'm not sure when we see an exterior (I'll keep us all posted). But, man, if it's only a townhouse I'm not sure how in the world they could've landed an out-of-control quinjet on its roof in issue #63-! The Frick, here, at least looks like it might have some sort of plausible surface area for that. In my mind's eye, the mansion really always needed to be adjoined by a city-block sized warehouse, anyhow. . . the roof is FLAT. It's ALWAYS flat-! HB Well, it didn't take long to find it. Avengers #8 (I've been reading on ahead a bit, I must confess), page 2. The Avengers are heading into the "luxurious town house of millionaire Anthony Stark", and we're given an impressive view of the exterior around the entrance to the building. And while it's not a direct copy of the Frick as we see it in CrimsonC's posted photo, the architectural style, implied size, and "feel" of the building are clearly quite, quite similar. One could easily assume a direct influence. Or that Jack looked at a photo of the building, then set aside so as not to copy it directly. Point for ol' Stan, I'd say-! HB
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Post by ultron69 on Dec 10, 2012 11:14:32 GMT -5
You know, when I got my DVDs and started reading the Silver Age stories of all the main Marvel books, Avengers was the one I was most disappointed with. Amazing SM hit its stride almost immediately, and so did FF. Thor and Iron Man took slightly longer. But Avengers? it took forever to have one really good story. In fact, I'm tempted to say it didn't really happen until Stan left and a perhaps more focused Roy came on board. I mostly agree with this. The Avengers didn't have too many good stories (though Cap's Cooky Quartest had its moments) until Roy Thomas took over. Of the big Silver Age superhero group #1's, I'd rank the X-Men first, FF second, and Avengers third. I don't really think the FF hit its stride until #44, though it did have some good moments in between (the Thing-Hulk battles, and some od the Dr Doom and Namor appearances were very good, especially Doom) but wasn't consistenyl great. The X-Men also struggled for the most part, but #1 was pretty good, relatively speaking. ASM was probably the best of the Silver Age #1's, IMHO.
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Post by ultron69 on Dec 10, 2012 13:59:44 GMT -5
Oh, by the way, great info and picture of the "real" Avengers Mansion, Crimson Cowl.
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Post by ultron69 on Dec 10, 2012 14:22:37 GMT -5
Nice observations, HB!
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Post by humanbelly on Jan 27, 2013 21:41:22 GMT -5
Ooh-- I have a small chunk of time that I can use to try to touch back on this nit-picky ol' thread-! It's been a gnawing problem, because. . .
AVENGERS #3
. . . is a veritable cornucopia of radar-blips, and I'm never able to keep them all in my head for a from-the-hip post. I'm actually going to have to jot down a few notes. . . ! (Revealing my utter habitual lack of scholarly discipline. . .)
Let me toss some out there, eh?
NO-PRIZE FODDER: Page 2-- there's full-size Janet sitting at the meeting table. . . with wings. We see her like this two more times in this issue. I do believe this is sort of a "famous" one, though-- noted many times in the past.
IRON MAN'S PROJECTOR ADVENTURE!: Pages 2-5 (I kid you not). *Good lord, it's yet another amazing "transistor-powered" techno-wonder-miracle device. Stan never met a mechanical device that couldn't be made to rule the world if you just added enough transistors to it. Never mind that transistors aren't actually power-storage devices in the first place. . . *The projector sends IM's 3-D image instantly anywhere in the world he wants it to. Plus it sends and receives sound. How? Uhhhh, transistors, o'course. . . *IM's in his new red & gold armor w/ the split-top visor. I've always kind of liked this one-- and I think Kirby does a pretty good job of making it look like a more form-fitting armor suit. Paul Reinman's inks, though, aren't helping me a lot with it. The one detail that Kirby struggles heroically with for several issues is what the heck to do with Tony's eyes-? He does his best to actually draw them in the eyeholes of the face-plate, even in some of the smaller panels. But the effect is just kind of. . . unsettling. It looks weird. *So, what happens is that we take a quick jaunt through much of the rest of the Marvel Universe, visiting the FF, Spidey, and the X-Men-- all to no avail. Good use of 3+ pages? Hmm-- I dunno. *The 3 panels that Spidey appears in are possibly the worst-drawn images of him ever printed. For those of you following along, take a minute to really peruse them. Kirby could draw so many things-- but he just never seems to have a handle on Spider-Man (well, except maybe the cover to AmFant #15). I have to say, though, that the exchange between he & IM very much sets the tone that they carry into Marvel Team-Up several years down the road.
OBSERVATION: Page 8, Jane Foster's thoughts: "Oh, Don, if only you didn't pamper yourself so! If only you were more rugged!" Geeze, I for one would hate to EVER accuse the fine Nurse Foster of being, oh say, SHALLOW or anything. . . but. . . really?
THERE THEY ARE AGAIN!: Page 9-- a transistor powered energy blast. I'm tellin' ya, it's not even gonna leave a mark on a kleenex-- try something else!
OH HOW CONVENIENT!: By page 9, we begin a really terrific extended battle scene-- everyone against the Hulk for, uh, the third issue in a row. But it's truly the best one, even with the following contrivances: a) pg 10/11 Underground stream (in the desert??)- which is instantly diverted by, uhm, ants building a dam out of pebbles. b) pg 12 Abandoned mine-shaft-- which the Hulk remembers the precise location of. c) pg 12 Nearby train tracks w/ a convenient passing freight train. Hank's the last one engaged, and man, he's taken out of the fight in a HARD fashion. Again, the pacing and inventiveness of the whole sequence carries the day-- even with a clearly (again) rushed job on the art, Kirby's instincts are still first-rate.
TOGETHER AGAIN FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME: Pg 16/17, Hulk & Subby have a nice tussle. This was the beginning of a rivalry that never got fully developed in later years-- but it was off to a good start. They'd lock horns in TtA #100 and in Hulk #118-- and both were very memorable issues, promising a years-long grudge that never seemed to bloom. "Who's stronger?" was debated for years in the Hulk's letters pages. Ultimately, of course, they decide to pool their strength against the common foe (the Avengers), and both immediately begin planning to betray the other at the first opportunity. This plan is reinforced throughout the rest of the issue-- really to the point of being almost comic.
BE PREPARED!: Subby immobilizes Iron Man with. . . an emery dust pellet gun. Good thing he remembered to bring one! Heck, I forget mine half the time, at least. And curses!-- last issue, water. . . this issue, sandpaper dust. . . is there no end to the fiendish substances that IM's armor is vulnerable to?? Fortunately, the battle is being fought in Gibraltor, in caves abandoned by the British Army (WWII), and there's some abandoned oxygen (air raid life saving) equipment that Wasp is able to retrieve (how?) to pump IM's suit back out.
VANISHING WORLD: As mentioned, the art still looks terribly rushed in some ways-- but unconventionally so. So much of the figure work and action is flat-out great stuff. . . albeit maybe a bit rough at the edges (and again, I'm thinking better inks could have helped). There's a solid sense of Jack fully enjoying drawing the "stuff" that was going on, BUT--- where the heck are we? Ever?? The backgrounds are rather sparse throughout the issue, and for the last 4 pages or so, they're all-but-missing entirely. Hmmm.
WHY WERE WE HERE, AGAIN?: Pg 25- The Avengers have come here because of Namor & Hulk's threats; Hulk has fled, and Namor is nearly subdued, although he's still ranting wildly about fighting all mankind-- obviously still quite dangerous. Some water splashes on Subby, though, and he breaks free. Jan exhorts Thor to stop him (which he probably could) but Thor declines-- "I have too much respect for his valor! Namor has EARNED his escape!"-- and Hank agrees with him. HUNH??? Then. . . why were you holding him down 10 seconds ago?!?? And what about his multiple threats against mankind??? Doesn't this make the Avengers directly culpable for any of his subsequent crimes against humanity? Good grief, Jan should have seized the helm of this ship o' fools at that very instant! Darn good thing Cap's comin' aboard next issue. . . maybe knock a couple o' heads together. . . !
Wow-- longest. Post. Ever. If you made it this far, thanks fer readin', eh?
HB
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Post by wundagoreborn on Jan 29, 2013 9:56:51 GMT -5
"Good grief, Jan should have seized the helm of this ship o' fools at that very instant!"
Funny, I was re-reading in the 220s yesterday, right when Jan takes the gavel. It's a hoot to consider the possibilities if that had happened 20 years earlier.
I too am a fan of the split top IM helmet. Seeing Tony's eyeballs through the slots has never done anything for me. Artists seem to either do it or not, rather than accounting for the fact that they would more likely be visible only occasionally depending on the light.
Thanks for these notes - they capture the zany feel of the time so well.
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 9, 2013 19:10:58 GMT -5
And so we come happily to. . .
AVENGERS #4: March, 1964 issue, which would have come out in. . . December of '63, maybe?
Hey, I may not even get all the way into this issue in one post, because I'm perpetually distracted by the over-riding question: "What the heck is going on with Cap's brain?? And was he in suspended animation or not???" Well, I guess that's two questions. But let's at least get up to that point first. . .
THAT SUBBY'S ONE FAST SWIMMER!: We open w/ a somewhat altered recap of the end of issue 3, w/ Namor swimming off. He's upset, soooo. . . he goes looking for peace and love, and searches the entire ocean suddenly trying to find his lost people. The. Entire. Atlantic Ocean. And we'll just assume it's the one ocean. He has his little fracas w/ the primitive North Atlantic Eskimos (who somehow know him by name??!?), and throws Ice Cube Cap into the ocean. Cap was then in the water long enough for that big chunk of ice to MELT COMPLETELY AWAY-- which would take . . . days, at least? And THAT'S when the Avengers pick Steve up on the way back from Gibraltar. One would have to assume that Tony's whiz-bang prototype atomic transistorized jet bathyscaph broke down on the way, and that they were paddling back to North America.
DUDE, DO YOU REMEMBER OR NOT?: I feel like someone at some point did try to tackle this bit of extreme sloppiness on Stan's part, and I just don't recall when. And I feel like it's probably pretty well-known, BUT: Steve fell off the drone plane, hit the icy water, and pretty much went right into suspended animation. Unconcious (presumably and certainly strongly implied) until the Avengers fished him out of the ocean. He then awakes, still pretty much caught up in the moment right before he went under. So, from Steve's perspective NO TIME HAS PASSED. He's been out and preserved, and would have no memory or even a sense of a passage of all the years. To him, Bucky was killed, literally, about five minutes ago. They fight, he gets hold of himself. . . and immediately starts to refer to himself in a melancholy past tense (basically as someone the world has forgotten). He can't possibly be aware of this. Finally, when pressed to explain himself, he begins with "It seems like only yesterday-- but it was more than twenty years ago. . . ". Again, it had to have seemed like just a few minutes ago, AND he couldn't know how long it had really been anyhow, right? Stan's getting all carried away and wallowing in the whole melodramatic "man out of his time" tone. Also, it would have really been less than 20 years, not more. Steve then wraps it all up by "guessing" that he must have been frozen in an ice floe, found by Eskimos and worshipped as a supernatural object. . . because, well, anything else would be implausible, right? Hank, though, quickly assures Cap that they believe this whale of a tale.
Now, I swear I remember some writer trying to put forth the idea that Cap was "sort of" conscious for the entire time, thus he had a sense of time passing, and a vague memory of his time as a totem pole. Of course, he would be barking blinking bonkers insane by that point, so I have an even harder time buying that.
Although it would go a long way towards explaining the mental case that Cap really does seem to be over the next several issues. . . even though no one seems to notice!
More on issue 4 down the road, I daresay-- Hurl tomatos at will!
HB
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Post by tomspasic on Feb 9, 2013 19:54:58 GMT -5
And so we come happily to. . . AVENGERS #4: March, 1964 issue, which would have come out in. . . December of '63, maybe? ................... DUDE, DO YOU REMEMBER OR NOT?: I feel like someone at some point did try to tackle this bit of extreme sloppiness on Stan's part, and I just don't recall when. And I feel like it's probably pretty well-known, BUT: Steve fell off the drone plane, hit the icy water, and pretty much went right into suspended animation. Unconcious (presumably and certainly strongly implied) until the Avengers fished him out of the ocean. He then awakes, still pretty much caught up in the moment right before he went under. So, from Steve's perspective NO TIME HAS PASSED. He's been out and preserved, and would have no memory or even a sense of a passage of all the years. To him, Bucky was killed, literally, about five minutes ago. They fight, he gets hold of himself. . . and immediately starts to refer to himself in a melancholy past tense (basically as someone the world has forgotten). He can't possibly be aware of this. Finally, when pressed to explain himself, he begins with "It seems like only yesterday-- but it was more than twenty years ago. . . ". Again, it had to have seemed like just a few minutes ago, AND he couldn't know how long it had really been anyhow, right? Stan's getting all carried away and wallowing in the whole melodramatic "man out of his time" tone. Also, it would have really been less than 20 years, not more. Steve then wraps it all up by "guessing" that he must have been frozen in an ice floe, found by Eskimos and worshipped as a supernatural object. . . because, well, anything else would be implausible, right? Hank, though, quickly assures Cap that they believe this whale of a tale. Now, I swear I remember some writer trying to put forth the idea that Cap was "sort of" conscious for the entire time, thus he had a sense of time passing, and a vague memory of his time as a totem pole. Of course, he would be barking blinking bonkers insane by that point, so I have an even harder time buying that. Although it would go a long way towards explaining the mental case that Cap really does seem to be over the next several issues. . . even though no one seems to notice! More on issue 4 down the road, I daresay-- Hurl tomatos at will! HB OK, how about this.... Page 4 Giant Man pulls Cap into the sub after several days in the warmer gulf stream waters, which, in addition to melting the ice, have begun to re-animate Cap. Still unable to move, his brain is active and can hear the voices of the Avengers discussing him, recognizing his costume etc. though he is not yet conscious. Page 5 When he awakes, for his conscious mind it's seconds after the drone exploded in 194something..and he comes out swinging. Within two panels the truth hits him...Bucky is dead, and he falls to his knees as this fact sinks home. Next panel caption "..the clear blue eyes take in the awesome figures surrounding him.." and presumably the advanced tech of a submarine made by a genius inventor replete with top of the range 1960s transistors and whatnot.. Cap asks "Where AM I? How did I get here? Who are you?". Iron man replies "that's what we were about to ask you". Stop the tape there. Maybe Cap's super soldier enhanced brain has also subconsciously noted his age decayed shreds of uniform, and along with the advanced tech and strange people made the guess that some time has passed since he went under, enough time for an army uniform/dungarees to rot to pieces. So he tells them he was the man the world called Captain America. Page 6 panel 1 Giant Man "Everything fits except one detail! You haven't been heard from since the second world war! Why haven't you aged??" Thor "How can the true Captain America still be as young as he who stands before us??" And then finally the Wasp in panel 6 "why haven't you aged??" All giving him the information, without explicitly stating that the war has been over for 20 or so years. And again, the super soldier serum enhances the mind as well as the body. That's what helped Cap become a tactical and fighting genius straight out of the box. His subconscious brain can process information faster and better than a baseline human. How else could he do the maths on how a shield would bounce around a room? So by the end of page 6 his subconscious has seen and heard enough to put together that he's been out of the world for long enough to be referred to as once mighty, that the war is long over, that they expect him to have aged a lot. Page 7 So now without thinking he can just say in passing that it was 20 years ago that yadda yadda yadda.. And that's leaving out the possibility that one of the Avengers actually answered his questions with useful info like "it's 1963", but Smiling Stan forgot to put it in a caption. But this all raises an interesting point about "Caps mental state". I've read on another site some interesting stuff about Cap's melancholia, hallucinations, mood swings, survivors guilt and so forth in the early Avengers as being Jack Kirby depicting post-traumatic stress syndrome as experienced by a combat veteran. One of which Kirby himself was, of course. That this material was, if not exactly autobiographical, was perhaps an expression of what he felt or experienced, or saw other experience, but basically would have had no outlet for. Lee, on the other hand, had seen no combat, and put in his own dialogue, which may have made it better or worse, we'll never know. The end result is this rather bizarre pastiche of a traumatized man's experiences with Smiling Stan's slightly hammy melodrama pasted on top, probably skewing the intent away from whatever Kirby initially wanted to convey. Or maybe Stan was right on the money and it was all about the survivor guilt. Aaanyway, that's what I did on my summer holiday...
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 10, 2013 7:27:39 GMT -5
Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes-- challenge nicely risen-to, there, TomS-- well-done!
Mind you, I'm not sure I quite buy into it-- but as a continuity-patch in a pinch, it allows us to continue on w/ our lives. ;D
Is the mental-enhancement aspect of the Super Soldier Serum something that's already well-established? I'd not heard of that before-- but I've never been a long-term Cap follower. As a fan and admirer of Cap in general, though, I kind of hate that idea because it so seriously diminishes his "regular guy" mystique. Really, this would have him operating at a rather freakish Sherlock Holmes/Mr Data level, and completely undermine his whole all-it-takes-is-discipline-hard-work-and-training schtick. It would make him less Cap, oddly enough.
Well, and plus clearly Stan didn't have anything remotely like that in mind when he wrote the story. He obviously was enchanted with the whole hero-displaced-in-time convention, and simply got there in that scene as a writer well before he got his ducks in a row, continuity-wise. Even though there's not a lot of space to insert them, you do almost have to assume a goodly bit of "between-panel" panels for many small elements to hold up under scrutiny (like Cap's immediate acceptance of these gaudy super-heroes, as you mentioned.). And then. . . you still have to raise an eyebrow at Cap's recounting "what must have happened" after that, eh?
I find it quietly gratifying that Jack Kirby may indeed have been trying to portray a man beset by PTSD (or Shell-shock, as it would have been called then) in those early issues. Thanks for passing that info on. Man, it has ALWAYS come across that way to me, even as a younger reader. And I wondered how it was that nobody seemed to respond to the traumatized state of mind he was in, even as he did his best to suppress it and mask it. Looking at it from the perspective of someone reading the issue for the first time, Cap's dilemma is quite compelling-- it's only down the road a couple of years that his melancholia starts to become a burden for regular readers.
HB
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Post by wundagoreborn on Feb 11, 2013 10:35:36 GMT -5
Why shouldn't the native folk of the North Atlantic know Namor's name? Swimming at that speed, he must be zipping by there every few weeks. Surely, on one pass he stopped, got grumpy and beat up someone they know.
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Post by tomspasic on Feb 11, 2013 13:56:57 GMT -5
Is the mental-enhancement aspect of the Super Soldier Serum something that's already well-established? I'd not heard of that before-- but I've never been a long-term Cap follower. As a fan and admirer of Cap in general, though, I kind of hate that idea because it so seriously diminishes his "regular guy" mystique. Really, this would have him operating at a rather freakish Sherlock Holmes/Mr Data level, and completely undermine his whole all-it-takes-is-discipline-hard-work-and-training schtick. It would make him less Cap, oddly enough. HB Well it's well established in the sense that it's right there in the origin from 1941: "building his body and brain tissues, until his stature and intelligence increase to an amazing degree", "the first of a corps of super-agents whose mental and physical ability will make them a terror to spies and sabateurs" (italics are mine) But is almost never mentioned now, or in the modern age, probably because as you say, it seems to make Cap less Cap. But I fall back on it to explain tons of stuff about him...
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 11, 2013 16:59:48 GMT -5
Interesting. I've read Cap's origin before, but I guess I missed the mental enhancement part. However, since I've never seen it mentioned since, and Cap never displays any particular superhuman intelligence, I hope I can be forgiven for my oversight.
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Post by tomspasic on Feb 11, 2013 17:19:04 GMT -5
Interesting. I've read Cap's origin before, but I guess I missed the mental enhancement part. However, since I've never seen it mentioned since, and Cap never displays any particular superhuman intelligence, I hope I can be forgiven for my oversight. I'm moderately confident that I'm the only person who ever even thinks about it a little. And even I forget it 90% of the time.... So you really have not overlooked something that was never used..
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 11, 2013 19:12:47 GMT -5
VERY cool of you to include that scan from the 1st Issue, TomS. Man, I haven't read that since forever and, like Ultron, I hadn't a whisker of a memory of those mental-enhancement claims. I suppose there's all kinds of quibbling that could be engaged in: that the serum couldn't actually instill knowledge, rather just enables the brain to process input at peak "potential" speed & efficiency; that the brain is part of the whole physical package, and has to basically expand its function to keep up with what's going on out in the rest of the body; things like that. I'm sure others have talked about how it's all a little creepily "Ubermensch/Master Race"-ish sounding? Especially w/ blonde-haired, blue-eyed Steve? Boy, what's goin' on w/ the military at that point where, in a single day, they can whisk a potential recruit right out of the examining room and do a likely-fatal experiment on him?? What the heck kinda America were we fightin' for--? Love the art. Really love it. If only- ha!- the Serum hadn't stopped working before it circulated down to poor Steve's feet. . . (Look at them dainty little footies!) This does make me want to read the whole story again-- I think I may have a much greater appreciation for the art now than I did when I was younger. HB
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Post by tomspasic on Feb 12, 2013 5:25:55 GMT -5
Yes, there is a rather weird feeling to the concept of the super soldier, especially exemplified by, as some have described him, "aryan poster boy" Steve Rogers. But I think it's worth remembering the context in which the story was written and drawn. At that time, eugenics was considered a legitimate scientific theory, not some lunatic fringe Nazi crackpot idea. So the idea of a "master race", or at least of a "perfected human being" was still common currency across the world, and not just in Nazi Germany. From wikipedia: "As a social movement, eugenics reached its greatest popularity in the early decades of the 20th century. At this point in time, eugenics was practiced around the world and was promoted by governments, and influential individuals and institutions. Many countries enacted[citation needed] various eugenics policies and programs, including: genetic screening, birth control, promoting differential birth rates, marriage restrictions, segregation (both racial segregation and segregation of the mentally ill from the rest of the population), compulsory sterilization, forced abortions or forced pregnancies and genocide. Most of these policies were later regarded as coercive and/or restrictive, and now few jurisdictions implement policies that are explicitly labeled as eugenic or unequivocally eugenic in substance. The way eugenics was practiced in this period involved "interventions", which is a euphemistic name for the identification and classification of individuals and their families, including the poor, mentally ill, blind, deaf, developmentally disabled, promiscuous women, homosexuals and entire racial groups — such as the Roma and Jews — as "degenerate" or "unfit"; the segregation or institutionalisation of such individuals and groups, their sterilization, euthanasia, and in the extreme case of Nazi Germany, their mass extermination. Eugenics became an academic discipline at many colleges and universities, and received funding from many sources.[7] Three International Eugenics Conferences presented a global venue for eugenicists with meetings in 1912 in London, and in 1921 and 1932 in New York. Eugenic policies were first implemented in the early 1900s in the United States.[8] Later, in the 1920s and 30s, the eugenic policy of sterilizing certain mental patients was implemented in a variety of other countries, including Belgium,[9] Brazil,[10] Canada,[11] and Sweden,[12] among others. The scientific reputation of eugenics started to decline in the 1930s, a time when Ernst Rüdin used eugenics as a justification for the racial policies of Nazi Germany, and when proponents of eugenics among scientists and thinkers prompted a backlash in the public. Nevertheless, in Sweden the eugenics program continued until 1975.[12]" End Quote. The other important part of the context in which Cap was created is that in a war against an enemy proclaiming their inherent "racial superiority and purity" it may well seem like an apt response to highlight, or even enhance, the "genetic fitness" of your own side's stock. It may all seem unpalatable to our modern sensibilities, but for moral and propaganda purposes it probably seemed a good idea to counter assertions of genetic inferiority with ostentatious displays of genetic superiority. Thus the irony of a soldier created to fight those trying to breed a "master race" becoming the very type of human his enemies wished to create. Back to the "brain enhancement" part of the super soldier serum, I think that you are right on the money. It increased his abilities to process information, which enhanced his combative abilities. And, going back to Avengers #4, meant that within seconds of waking up he might glean enough info to conclude that he'd been in suspended animation for 20 years....
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 12, 2013 7:45:05 GMT -5
I'm sure others have talked about how it's all a little creepily "Ubermensch/Master Race"-ish sounding? Especially w/ blonde-haired, blue-eyed Steve? HB It's occured to me before in reading Silver Age comics that a LOT of superheroes are blonde & blue eyed. Far more than the general populace. I wonder if it's subconscious or intentional, or maybe it's just my fervid imagination.
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 12, 2013 7:48:42 GMT -5
tomspasic, good points, especially about eugenics, and I think we always, when evaluating older comics, need to take into account the period in which they were written, which isn't awlays easy if we weren't around (or were just wee ladsd & lasses) when they were written.
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