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Post by witchywoman on Jun 11, 2012 21:22:59 GMT -5
I'm a DC girl myself, but I love the Marvel Cinematics Universe.
I have one simple question that will have innumerable, undoubtedly complicated answers...
How did the Tessaract find its way to Earth in the first place? And, perhaps, how did Herr Schmidt become aware of its existence?
Thanks in advance to all my fellow nerds for helping me out with this!
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Post by woodside on Jun 12, 2012 7:18:12 GMT -5
If I were to venture a guess, I would assume that it was "left behind" or "lost" during a battle between Odin's forces and the Frost Giants -- based solely on the fact that the battle at the beginning of "Thor" takes place at the same village the Terraract was discovered "Captain America."
As far as how the Red Skull found it? More than likely, in-depth research.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 12, 2012 7:58:45 GMT -5
If I were to venture a guess, I would assume that it was "left behind" or "lost" during a battle between Odin's forces and the Frost Giants -- based solely on the fact that the battle at the beginning of "Thor" takes place at the same village the Terraract was discovered "Captain America." As far as how the Red Skull found it? More than likely, in-depth research. I wonder if there was another clue, reference, or moment that we (I) may have missed in there somewhere, or possibly something that ended up on the cutting room floor? Good job on making the connection w/ the town, WS-- that had gone right by me. Otherwise, yeah-- why would the "Jewel of Odin's Treasure Room" be interred on earth? Unless--- maybe to keep it out of the hands of malevolent, would-be earth-conquerors from the Asgardian dimension? Which would make sense, 'cause only Odin himself has the force to open the gateway between the two worlds without it. But, boy, that's a pretty big narrative jump to expect any casual, one-time viewer to make on their own. I dunno. As for the Red Skull/Zola tracking it down-- again, I feel like there's a moment of explanation missing. . . and that explanation would be some subtle influence on Loki's part. AND again I wouldn't be surprised if that moment existed at some point in the process of making the film (if only in an earlier draft of the script), and was jettisoned along the way. Sort of like the "What's the story behind Banner's motorcycle??" question I had, elsethread. . . HB |
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Jun 14, 2012 8:49:16 GMT -5
If I were to venture a guess, I would assume that it was "left behind" or "lost" during a battle between Odin's forces and the Frost Giants -- based solely on the fact that the battle at the beginning of "Thor" takes place at the same village the Terraract was discovered "Captain America." As far as how the Red Skull found it? More than likely, in-depth research. That sounds about right to me. I'd presume the skull tracked it using clues from myths and legends and then from historical Viking and later monastic records. That's really cool about the village from 'Thor' being the same as the one in 'Captain America'. I didn't realise. Where does it say that? |
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Post by woodside on Jun 14, 2012 20:23:56 GMT -5
If I were to venture a guess, I would assume that it was "left behind" or "lost" during a battle between Odin's forces and the Frost Giants -- based solely on the fact that the battle at the beginning of "Thor" takes place at the same village the Terraract was discovered "Captain America." As far as how the Red Skull found it? More than likely, in-depth research. That sounds about right to me. I'd presume the skull tracked it using clues from myths and legends and then from historical Viking and later monastic records. That's really cool about the village from 'Thor' being the same as the one in 'Captain America'. I didn't realise. Where does it say that? In both opening scenes, when the village is introduced.  |
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Post by visionloveswanda on Jul 3, 2012 16:04:20 GMT -5
Okay, here is something that has bothered me about the tessaract in an otherwise simply astounding film that is by far now my favorite super hero flick:
How is that the Nazis are able to tap it in WWII but we, with all our advanced technology today are not able to?
I mean it is already stretching credibility that a scientist in the 40s could create the Super Soldier serum (with H. Stark’s assistance, no less) but we can’t find a way to reproduce it?
Add the tessaract to the mix and you really must come to view the WWII gang as the “Greatest Generation!” But for other reasons than that label normally gets applied.
So what do you fine folks think?
Here’s my attempt at explaining it:
At the beginning of The Avengers, The Other says “The Tessaract has awakened.” Not “we have awakened the Tessaract.” So, I must assume that given Fury’s seen with Selvig at the end of Thor, and Selvig saying it is “misbehaving” in Avengers, that the little bugger was no longer cooperating like it did with Schmidt and Olaf--and that it did this on its own for 70 years in one way or another. At first doing nothing, and then later letting Loki into the bedroom (so to speak)
This poses the question: is the Tessaract fascist? Sure seems like it! : )
What say ye, oh wise comrades?
VLW
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 3, 2012 19:35:20 GMT -5
Okay, here is something that has bothered me about the tessaract in an otherwise simply astounding film that is by far now my favorite super hero flick: How is that the Nazis are able to tap it in WWII but we, with all our advanced technology today are not able to? I mean it is already stretching credibility that a scientist in the 40s could create the Super Soldier serum (with H. Stark’s assistance, no less) but we can’t find a way to reproduce it? Add the tessaract to the mix and you really must come to view the WWII gang as the “Greatest Generation!” But for other reasons than that label normally gets applied. So what do you fine folks think? Here’s my attempt at explaining it: At the beginning of The Avengers, The Other says “The Tessaract has awakened.” Not “we have awakened the Tessaract.” So, I must assume that given Fury’s seen with Selvig at the end of Thor, and Selvig saying it is “misbehaving” in Avengers, that the little bugger was no longer cooperating like it did with Schmidt and Olaf--and that it did this on its own for 70 years in one way or another. At first doing nothing, and then later letting Loki into the bedroom (so to speak) This poses the question: is the Tessaract fascist? Sure seems like it! : ) What say ye, oh wise comrades? VLW That's kind of a interesting little speculation you've got going there, VLW. Certainly the cumulative impression would be that, at the very least, the Tesseract has some level of autonomous awareness or sentience. That hadn't really crossed my mind before-- since there's always a tendency to refer to big, complex, impressive things (ships, planes, mountains, moons. . . ) as "she", and that's how I'd been taking Selvig's references. But I wonder if you're more onto what's really in play here? If so, then the disparate levels of technology may not be such a big deal, since maybe harnessing the Tesseract's energy may be much more a function of being in the right place at the right time (with a certain adequate minimum level of tech) than anything else. Maybe Edison or Tessla could even have contrived a way to throw a yoke onto it--! (Wow, a potential steampunk delight--!) It really just becomes a matter of knowing when and where it's going to awake and being ready. Is it Fascist? Does it only like serving in an environment rife with conquest? Perhaps there's a unique, sustaining energy that it thrives on in that scenario. Man, I looked up what a tesseract actually is on Wikipedia--- GEEZE what a tough-to-wrangle geometric concept for a simple fellow like myself. I'll tell you, though, this thing works better for me than the "Wrinkle In Time" description, which is where we probably all first heard the term. . . HB |
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Post by visionloveswanda on Jul 3, 2012 23:06:00 GMT -5
HB-- I loved the way Carl Sagan used to explain what it was: a three dimensional shadow of a four dimensional cube--just as the square is a two dimensional shadow of the three dimensional cube! Very cool. Freaky when you start to think about it... Any physicists in the house? And yeah, even though Odin is a cool guy in the MU, he is a king--an absolute ruler, as was the desire of Schmidt, as was the desire of Loki, as is the desire of "the creature at the end", etc... Hmm... I am not sure I like this tesseract so much anymore.  VLW |
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Jul 28, 2012 7:59:32 GMT -5
Nice idea, but probably not. I suspect that ''the tesseract has awakened'' just sounded cooler.
Love the stuff about the technology disconnect though. It's part of the problem with the increasing gap for Captain America's rejuvenation. In the sixties technology was still well within range of the Nazis (indeed former scientists of the Reich are widely credited as the driving force behind both the US and Soviet space programs and quite a lot of other technological developments). Mysteries and conspiracy theories of the 'Boys from Brazil'/'Marathon Man' type ensured they remained effective bogeymen.
By the eighties they still had a powerful ideological presence, with neo-nazis and skinheads still being a significant societal issue, and it still kind of worked.
Nowadays the Nazis just seem irrelevant though, comedy villains of the 'Iron Skies' variety (which of course is based on one of the more outlandish of the old conspiracy theories). The idea of Nazi master scientists is a good deal less fearsome these days too as they seem rather backward. Yet in the comics Cap still spends a good deal of his time fighting Nazis.
OTOH, where the tesseract is concerned you could well argue that the relevant theoretical ideas haven't developed much since then, and since the actual technology is well beyond earth's of either era, a particularly gifted physicist and engineer (not biochemist! What gave you that idea?) like Arnim Zola might well have the edge over a contemporary egghead.
Biochemistry, however, surely has come a very long way since the forties. The problem with the super soldier serum is that it came true. It was used to fuel the athletics triumphs of East Germany, the US and many others. Essentially the likes of Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, Katrin Krabbe, Marion Jones, Linford Christie, Merlene Ottey, and no doubt many more, and indeed many over the next few weeks of the Olympics (not to mention many other sports where these things are widespread), actually are Captain America. As a result that's not 'super' enough any more so the serum now has to 'do more' than that and thus is being asked to be more effective than is plausible for the scientific development of the forties.
On that line of thought though, would Cap have suffered from the common side effects of steroid abuse? It might explain his sexual issues in the forties comics, where he's always fleeing from adoring women (usually Betty Ross) after the finale, if he was actually suffering from shrunken genitalia and impotence...
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Post by visionloveswanda on Aug 7, 2012 18:53:48 GMT -5
I did some digging and found that the Cosmic Cube (Tessaract) is constantly portrayed as having a mind of its own in the comics. So, I think we can safely say that its misbehaving was intentional. And Selvig says it twice. He states "She's not only active. She's...behaving." And that it "turns itself back on." Kind of like the Ring To Rule Them All: it wants to be found.
Now, why it is bad for the good guys and good for the bad guys is another question. I still say its fascist! ;D
Either way, its mostly caused trouble so far in the Marvel Movieverse.
And, might it be possible that its troublesome nature might explain its presence on Earth? Humans are no threat, weak as we are, so hide it with them. What possible mischief could come from that? I dunno. Just a guess.
Maybe Marvel will enlighten is in Round 2...
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Aug 9, 2012 10:03:21 GMT -5
visionloveswanda wrote:
Maybe, but again maybe not. Aren't those observations by Selvig explained by Hawkeye, and subsequently confirmed by events, as having been the result of activity on the other end of the 'doorway'? I suspect you're reading too much into it; but hey, speculate away -far be it from me to spoil your fun.
However, considering that there's a virtual certainty that the cube currently contains the consciousness of the Red Skull its almost definitely pretty fascist now, whatever it may have been before.
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Post by visionloveswanda on Aug 11, 2012 13:40:27 GMT -5
Good points Crimson. You could certainly be right. I suppose we’ll only know if they reveal more info in future films, since Marvel opted not to commission a novelization of the movie (a major let down for me) that could have explained all of this in the same way, for instance, that the DKR novelization explains most of the supposed plot holes in that movie. But, I think if you are correct, it shows major writing/plot problems. And, as a writer, I would be very disappointed in the Marvel writing team. First, like I said above, there would be no viable explanation for why the Nazis 70 years ago could use the cube, but we can’t. After all, the effort to tap the Cube’s power, would be THE ultimate project of those 70 years, making the Cold War pale in comparison--and Fury tells this very thing to T. Stark in IM2. So, it’s not like the US wouldn’t be putting everything into trying to make it work. Second, I already thought it stretched credibility to think H. Stark would hide the plans for his new element--clearly related to the Tesseract--in the expo design instead of just putting it in some highly secured Swiss lock box for Tony to access when he turns 40 or whatever...or, I don’t know...maybe, you know SHARING IT WITH THE GLOBAL SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY!!! Okay, I feel better now after that virtual yell. The academic in me had to let off some steam.  Anyway, maybe you are right that is just as simple as Loki/Thanos reopened it, but that’s not how the Other said it: he said “The Tesseract has awakened.” Given it is a sentient being in the comics, I am taking that as a nod to the fans, as well as a plot point. Dialog in movies does need to sound good, as you say, but screenwriters also put an enormous amount of time into thinking about the subtext and deeper meaning of the dialog. Whedon’s dialog, and that of his writers, has always been excellent. As a writer, if your explanation is correct, I would have big problems with this and would even, in the face of no further explanations from Marvel, say it was just lazy writing. But I just don’t think that is the case. I think they have pretty carefully plotted all of this. Our gracious host, for instance, Van Plexico plots his novels very carefully and I would expect nothing less from Marvel. And maybe that is why I am resistant to your take on it, because I love these Marvel movies so much and don't want to be let down by them. But then again, you’re probably right Crimson. After all, not only is your wisdom spread throughout these message boards, but more importantly, how many times do we Avengers fans have to be reminded that we ignore the words of the fearsome Crimson Cowl at our own peril (still one of my all-time favorite story lines!)... VLW |
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Aug 12, 2012 6:42:22 GMT -5
You are of course right that you would ignore my words at your peril, but it's only a matter of time before I sanitize all organic lifeforms and their feeble thoughts and desires from existence.
Anyway, I'm not sure the writing's as lazy as you suggest -I think you're maybe just stuck onto one track as that's what you latched onto.
The use of 'awakened' needn't necessarily be to do with consciousness. Rather, I think it's effective language use because it is ominous and suggestive of process. Once the tesseract has been activated, it implies, further consequences or processes must occur. In many respects this seems more important regarding the cosmic cube as it is the consequences of its ability to make anything reality when in the inevitably flawed hands of living consciousnesses. It's the consequences of that which are at the heart of what makes the cosmic cube such an essential icon in the MU rather than any notions of it having a consciousness of its own (IMO -puny organic parasite!). The cosmic cube is the ultimate symbol of the potential for the abuse of power.
As I said earlier, I don't think the theoretical basis for this kind of thing has altered enough to make it that implausible for an exceptionally brilliant Nazi to make the intuitive leap when more modern eggheads couldn't. Still, maybe the discovery of the Higgs-Boson will change all that (unless, like other type 13 planets, we are shrunk to the size of a pea...).
I think the point about Howard Stark's decision to hide the unfinished technology was that he didn't trust the scientific community and certainly not the military -the potential for abuse of power is immense. As a result he entrusts it to his son (the abuses of the military/industrial establishment and Tony's opposition to them is of course a major theme in both of the Iron Man films). Of course the notion that he knows that his son will grow up to have a similar outlook is rather unrealistic -but I guess he got lucky.
As for the Swiss deposit box? In the world of superheroes his choice to hide the formula as a pattern secreted in the layout of the expo was obviously a much safer choice (!).
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