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Post by Shiryu on May 1, 2012 18:50:40 GMT -5
I want to share this (spoilerfree) article I just read. I agree with most of its analysis about core Leaguers often being rather obscure characters in comparison to core Avengers, and it made me wonder if, instead of a JLA movie, we wouldn't be better off with a simpler Trinity movie, which could then act as JLA prequel. whatculture.com/film/the-avengers-success-makes-justice-league-film-inevitable.phpThere is also one comment that I think is spot on Bruce Timm and Paul Dini mention having had the same problem when switching from Batman TAS to JLA.
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Post by ultron69 on May 2, 2012 7:31:14 GMT -5
I don't think the core Leaguers are obscure compared to the Avengers. If anything, it's the other way around, or at least was so before Marvel released all of these Avengers related movies in the past few years. The Superfriends cartoon made most of them A listers, if they weren’t already. Obviously, everybody knows the trinity, and with the Green Lantern film, he's pretty well known too. The Flash is a bit below that, but he did have a TV show a while back, so that helps. The author is obviously right that Marvel has dominated the movie trend, but I still think the general public is familiar with the core Leaguers, except for the Martian Manhunter, who would probably be left out of a JLA movie, anyway. As far as changing the tone from the Dark Knight to something more "superheroey", that is perhaps a potential problem. Personally, I don’t know why they need to give everyone a separate film to explain their origin before having them appear in a group movie, but obviously the Hollywood filmmakers feel that this is so, so in that regard, DC will have trouble, as there isn’t much on the horizon for DC, so right now, based on the Hollywood “everyone must have their origin exhaustively explained in a separate movie before appearing as a superhero group “ rule (the X-Men are the exception as their origin is easy – they were all simply born with their superpowers), they’d only be able to have a JLA movie with Batman, Superman, and the Green Lantern. The author also admits to not being a DC fan, but in spite of that, I agree with most of his points.
Why is it that only Marvel knows how to do movies and only DC knows how to do animated series? Each company has one notable exception (Dark Knight & EMH) of course.
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Post by Shiryu on May 3, 2012 13:49:53 GMT -5
Uhm, I'm probably biased due to the very little exposure DC characters other than Batman, Superman and, to some extent, Wonder Woman had in Italy. Their books were never really published until the late 80s, only to be cancelled a few years later until the late 90s, then again until mid 2000s, and so on (with Superman originally renamed Nembo Kid!). The Superfriends cartoon, Flash and Superboy live series aired on small local networks with extremely low ratings. Outside from the much appreciated Wonder Woman series with Linda Carter, it wasn't until Lois & Clark and Batman TAS that DC had any sort of regular presence on the main Italian networks.
I believe that of all DC characters I only knew Supes, Bats, WW, Flash and Green Arrow until the JLA animated series.
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Post by humanbelly on May 4, 2012 8:04:22 GMT -5
Uhm, I'm probably biased due to the very little exposure DC characters other than Batman, Superman and, to some extent, Wonder Woman had in Italy. Their books were never really published until the late 80s, only to be cancelled a few years later until the late 90s, then again until mid 2000s, and so on (with Superman originally renamed Nembo Kid!). The Superfriends cartoon, Flash and Superboy live series aired on small local networks with extremely low ratings. Outside from the much appreciated Wonder Woman series with Linda Carter, it wasn't until Lois & Clark and Batman TAS that DC had any sort of regular presence on the main Italian networks. I believe that of all DC characters I only knew Supes, Bats, WW, Flash and Green Arrow until the JLA animated series. A very interesting reminder of how marked the differences in pop-culture can be-- even in two fairly compatible "western" cultures, such as Italy & the U.S. Although it would have been before your time, Shir, do you have any sense of whether or not Superman as a character (not necessarily as a comic book) was any more prevalent in, say, the 30's, 40's, and/or 50's? He was pretty much ubiquitous in the U.S. for much of the time in those decades. But seeing him labeled the "Nembo Kid" (??!!??-- where in the world did that name come from? What's it mean in Italian??) does make one wonder if he had an impact even then during his cultural heyday. Say, as a related aside, our theater is doing David Bar Katz's play, HISTORY OF INVULNERABILITY in a few weeks. In fact, I must confess that I should be building away at the set even as I'm typing here-! It's an exploration of Jerry Siegel's creation of and relationship with Superman, intertwined with a thesis of Superman being a distinctly (albeit subtly) Jewish figure. Very, very bittersweet piece-- really bordering on dark-- but compelling and interesting, nonetheless. And I've had kind of a neat time constructing two enormous comic book page walls that "open" at the end of the play; as well as cutting out a 20' wide "S" chest-shield for the main playing area. Now, if someone would only write a HULK play, and I could make big, ol' Styrofoam walls that could be smashed down every night-! HB
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Post by Shiryu on May 4, 2012 10:13:57 GMT -5
A very interesting reminder of how marked the differences in pop-culture can be-- even in two fairly compatible "western" cultures, such as Italy & the U.S. Although it would have been before your time, Shir, do you have any sense of whether or not Superman as a character (not necessarily as a comic book) was any more prevalent in, say, the 30's, 40's, and/or 50's? He was pretty much ubiquitous in the U.S. for much of the time in those decades. But seeing him labeled the "Nembo Kid" (??!!??-- where in the world did that name come from? What's it mean in Italian??) does make one wonder if he had an impact even then during his cultural heyday. Nembo Kid means something like Sky Kid. Nembo is an oldfashion word for clouds, I suppose it's a reference to Superman flying. I once heard an Italian father tried to name his son that, but the court ruled it out ^^ I should add that Nembo Kid was published without paying any rights to DC, and the S on Superman's costume was redrawn as NK or cancelled altogether. Before that, Superman was briefly published under several names (according to Wiki, he was Cyclon - The Man of Steel, and then Cyclon - The Phenomenal Man). But only a handful of these stories were genuine, most were in fact written and drawn by Italian authors, who used him as propaganda for Fascism. During WW2, distribution of comic book was minimal, but I know for certain that during the liberation, American servicemen left comic books behind, or gave them away to Italian children. Some of the older Italian comic book writers recall finding or being given these battered copies when they were children, and at times these were the very first foreign comic books they had ever seen. At times, these stories even inspired those children to eventually work as comic book creators. But, generally speaking, Disney was the main foreign influence in Italy during those decades.
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Post by sharkar on May 4, 2012 12:38:11 GMT -5
Shiryu, thanks--that is fascinating. And...here's some other info Shiryu gave us a while back about Nembo Kid and that era. vplexico.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=classicavengers&action=display&thread=2440&page=3Talking about characters names abroad, here is something. In his very early years in Italy, Superman was renamed... Nembo Kid (!). This was mostly for copyright reasons, from 1951 to 1974, when he is finally allowed to use his real name. Here are a few covers The name is still part of the culture, especially in middle-aged folks who remember reading his stories at the time. It's now fading away, but a few years ago it wasn't too uncommon to hear people say "who am I supposed to be? Nembo Kid?" when asked to do something beyond their possibilities. Apparently, some 15/20 years ago, a father tried to name his son Nembo Kid, but the court didn't give him permission ^^
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Post by ultron69 on May 7, 2012 11:43:50 GMT -5
Uhm, I'm probably biased due to the very little exposure DC characters other than Batman, Superman and, to some extent, Wonder Woman had in Italy. Their books were never really published until the late 80s, only to be cancelled a few years later until the late 90s, then again until mid 2000s, and so on (with Superman originally renamed Nembo Kid!). The Superfriends cartoon, Flash and Superboy live series aired on small local networks with extremely low ratings. Outside from the much appreciated Wonder Woman series with Linda Carter, it wasn't until Lois & Clark and Batman TAS that DC had any sort of regular presence on the main Italian networks. I believe that of all DC characters I only knew Supes, Bats, WW, Flash and Green Arrow until the JLA animated series. In the US, I daresay most kids have been familiar with the Justice League for decades. Even B-lister Aquaman is the common butt of stand-up comics' jokes as "the guy who talks to fish". Superfriends was incredibly popular here in the 70s and 80s and was my first introduction to superheroes. The first time I saw comic books at the local store, I already knew who those people on the cover were. I can't say that about too many Marvel titles at that time.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on May 19, 2012 9:15:00 GMT -5
I'd say that the problem DC will have with a JLA movie is the same they face with the comic itself. A Marvel ensemble like the Avengers thrives because the characters are interesting, indeed in most cases it is the person behind the mask that is more interesting. It's the interaction of the characters that gives the movie life.
DC's roster, for the most part, don't actually have individual characters. DC have tried to 'Marvelize' them a bit over the years but to be honest I couldn't really tell you the difference in character or personality between Hal Jordan and Barry Allen. I could tell you the difference between their powers, and that they have different jobs. Martian Manhunter is an alien, as is Hawkman (sometimes) but they're pretty much the same as Flash and Green Lantern too. That's the rub, they're defined by their powers not by who they are.
Miller's, and as a result Nolan's, Batman has a bit more going for him and Wonder Woman has her whole feminist schtick. Superman is just default super square. Still, compare any of those with the distict personalities of Tony Stark, Thor, Peter Parker, Matt Murdock, Ben Grimm, Johnny Storm, Logan, Bruce Banner etc.
A pre Stan Lee character like Captain America has similar issues to the DC ones -he's pretty much an identikit superhero. However he can work in an ensembe because his default square persona contrasts with the others so they can interact. For DC the fact that so many of the characters are basically the same becomes a real handicap as they don't really have much to say to each other.
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on May 19, 2012 10:43:13 GMT -5
Even when a DC character HAS a distinct personality, as is the case with Green Arrow, it often turns out that it has been "borrowed" from its rival's archer... .
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Post by humanbelly on May 19, 2012 17:08:19 GMT -5
Even when a DC character HAS a distinct personality, as is the case with Green Arrow, it often turns out that it has been "borrowed" from its rival's archer... . Although I haven't picked it up for a couple of years, one of the things I've liked so much about the incarnations of the JSA in the last decade has been that sense of them being "real folks", as it were. Distinct, idiosyncratic characters spanning many generations, who seemed determined to get along with each other, for the most part. Granted, it's sort of an "Anti-Marvel" book, in that there's so little over-the-top internal soul-searching angst-- but maybe that's what I found engaging about them. An aging Wildcat's love/hate relationship with Power Girl (to whom he was hopelessly attracted for testosteronic reasons as much as anything); Billy Batson (in Capt Marvel's body) having to end a budding relationship w/ a 16 year old girl-- because of its inappropriate appearance; GA Flash & GA Green Lantern dealing with aging and relationships and leadership; Black Adam struggling to be a good guy; Atom Smasher struggling with personal and philosphical conflicts (that were sadly a bit beyond him). . . It reminded me a bit of the earliest days of the New Mutants, where the characters were accessible and compelling without every one of their problems having life or death implications. I just. . . I liked it, y'know? HB
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