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Post by woodside on Mar 17, 2012 10:13:39 GMT -5
Hey everyone! So I said it was coming and here it is: an issue-by-issue review of Busiek's Avengers run! I may end up doing the Johns issues too, but we'll worry about that when the time comes.
Before we start with issue # 1, I'd like to talk a little bit more about my entry into the Avengers and my history with the title before volume three. I, of course, knew about the Avengers, but my only real experience with them came from their occasional crossovers with the X-Men ("Bloodties," in particular).
In 1996, I got all wrapped up in the Onslaught saga/crossover, which the Avengers played a central role. I loved their scenes during their battle with Onslaught -- Thor's bravery and strength; Cap's leadership and inspiration; Iron Man's self-sacrifice; and, as a whole, the Avengers willingness to give up their lives to defeat the monster that threatened to truly destroy the world.
I, like many, was upset with Heroes Reborn. I found the books to be rather bland and uninteresting (though I do recall that Iron Man was at least somewhat interesting). I eagerly anticipated their return to the mainstream MU and was overjoyed when they came smashing through the dimensional barrier and they all came home.
I picked all of the Heroes Return books, but Avengers struck a cord with me. It felt like such a great introduction to the other side of the Marvel Universe that I, as an X-Fan, had only glimpsed.
Since this issue (or I guess, technically, Avengers volume 2 # 12), I've read Avengers up until issue # 71. I picked it back up shortly after that to read the majority of Bendis' run -- up until the Siege crossover. Recently, I was able to complete Kurt Busiek's run, who was the writer who got me into Avengers with Volume Three # 1.
Having recently completed reading the Morrison/Waid/Casey runs on JLA, it only seemed logic for me to read my other favorite super-team of that era: the Avengers!
So, without further ado . . .
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AVENGERS # 1 (Volume Three)
Quite suddenly, all the Avengers old and new are mysteriously attacked by Asgardian creatures -- Trolls, beasts, warriors, and all the like. The foes are defeated and all vanish at the same time. Cap, Wasp, Giant-Man, and Iron Man get together at Avengers Mansion to compare notes and figure out what's going on. Thor then busts through the door, having been missing since their return.
Thor fills everyone in on what he knows: Asgard is empty and in ruins; the Norn Stones are missing; and the Twilight Sword has been stolen! With such a huge threat looming over their heads and with all these Avengers attacked, Cap summons a full roster of Avengers to the mansion.
Cap and the gang fill everyone in on the threat. Thor finds the Norn Stones and the Avengers split up the find them, knowing full well it's a trap. Cap takes his team (consisting of Crystal, Quicksilver, Quasar, Scarlet Witch, Hercules, and D-Man) to Tintangel Head. They fight Mordred, who is able to capture Scarlet Witch, and then are faced with the true foe: Morgan LeFay! She uses the Norn Stones and the Scarlet Witch to access the power of the Twilight Sword. The world then burns to white!
***
Right off the bat, this issue packs in a lot! We get tons of characters, all of whom are clearly defined and full of personality. There's a good, strong sense of history here, but it's very easily accessible to any comic book fan.
The opening sequences are pretty cool and I really liked seeing all of these previous Avengers members being attacked at the same time, and yet, all of them prevailing. Using the Maximoffs as a framing device for this was a good choice too, as it helps to humanize the Avengers (a family going out to dinner is relatively normal).
(one thing I thought about while reading this was if Avengers on other worlds were attacked? or if Jessica Jones was attacked as well?)
The scene with Cap, Wasp, Giant-Man, and Iron Man is very nicely atmospheric and you can just feel the warmth of Tony's study. Jarvis seems so quietly content with having the Avengers back in the mansion. Thor's entry into the the mansion is very dramatic (a little too much), but I loved their scene where the five of them agree to get the gang back together.
Hawkeye is very nicely defined and it's kinda clear from the onset who are the Avengers that Busiek is going to focus on -- the five founders, Hawkeye, and the Maximoffs. That being said, once all the of the Avengers are assembled, he gives everyone a nice nod. Quasar, D-Man, Hercules, Black Panther, Namor, Justice, Firestar, Beast, Binary, etc etc, all get small moments of characterization. There are nods to the Avengers not there, as well as those fallen and those unwilling to show.
I liked Cap's speech, but I actually really loved the panel just after it. Aside from the hilariousness of giving D-Man space, you can really read something into everyone's body language and position throughout the room. I also loved Justice throughout this entire issue. His viewing of the Avengers as being so much bigger than him, as well as his incredible awkwardness at being there makes him very relatable and gives readers (new readers, in particular) someone to help guide them through the world of the Avengers.
The small scene with Rick and Jarvis is pretty good, too.
Cap's team arriving the island is fun and typical super-hero stuff. The sequences wraps up quickly and I liked Morgan LeFay's plan of attack for the other Avengers (Thor battling non-Asgardian monsters and the like). The reality warp is extremely reminiscent of House of M, though Wanda only played a role in this one and didn't do it herself.
Of course, we have a cliffhanger.
Overall, this is a fine issue, with lots of little details and interesting and fun scenes. The characterization is top-notch, the pacing is steady, and we have a nice blend of large-scale super-heroics and humanizing, normal moments. The captions are a little over-dramatic at times and come off as unnecessary to me, but I can live with it.
The art, though, is beyond words. The extreme detail and scope of George Perez is amazing. Look at the cups at the Maximoffs dinner or the expression on Hawkeye's face or the detail of ALL the battle scenes. Perez dedication to creating this world is amazing and his illustration of it is to be applauded.
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So that's all I got for issue one! I'm not sure if every issue is going to be as in-depth of if I'll even review them one issue at a time (I may end up doing it by story arcs, but we'll see).
Thoughts?
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 17, 2012 15:06:38 GMT -5
Hey everyone! So I said it was coming and here it is: an issue-by-issue review of Busiek's Avengers run! I may end up doing the Johns issues too, but we'll worry about that when the time comes. Before we start with issue # 1, I'd like to talk a little bit more about my entry into the Avengers and my history with the title before volume three. I, of course, knew about the Avengers, but my only real experience with them came from their occasional crossovers with the X-Men ("Bloodties," in particular). In 1996, I got all wrapped up in the Onslaught saga/crossover, which the Avengers played a central role. I loved their scenes during their battle with Onslaught -- Thor's bravery and strength; Cap's leadership and inspiration; Iron Man's self-sacrifice; and, as a whole, the Avengers willingness to give up their lives to defeat the monster that threatened to truly destroy the world. I, like many, was upset with Heroes Reborn. I found the books to be rather bland and uninteresting (though I do recall that Iron Man was at least somewhat interesting). I eagerly anticipated their return to the mainstream MU and was overjoyed when they came smashing through the dimensional barrier and they all came home. I picked all of the Heroes Return books, but Avengers struck a cord with me. It felt like such a great introduction to the other side of the Marvel Universe that I, as an X-Fan, had only glimpsed. Since this issue (or I guess, technically, Avengers volume 2 # 12), I've read Avengers up until issue # 71. I picked it back up shortly after that to read the majority of Bendis' run -- up until the Siege crossover. Recently, I was able to complete Kurt Busiek's run, who was the writer who got me into Avengers with Volume Three # 1. Having recently completed reading the Morrison/Waid/Casey runs on JLA, it only seemed logic for me to read my other favorite super-team of that era: the Avengers! So, without further ado . . . ----------------- AVENGERS # 1 (Volume Three) Quite suddenly, all the Avengers old and new are mysteriously attacked by Asgardian creatures -- Trolls, beasts, warriors, and all the like. The foes are defeated and all vanish at the same time. Cap, Wasp, Giant-Man, and Iron Man get together at Avengers Mansion to compare notes and figure out what's going on. Thor then busts through the door, having been missing since their return. Thor fills everyone in on what he knows: Asgard is empty and in ruins; the Norn Stones are missing; and the Twilight Sword has been stolen! With such a huge threat looming over their heads and with all these Avengers attacked, Cap summons a full roster of Avengers to the mansion. Cap and the gang fill everyone in on the threat. Thor finds the Norn Stones and the Avengers split up the find them, knowing full well it's a trap. Cap takes his team (consisting of Crystal, Quicksilver, Quasar, Scarlet Witch, Hercules, and D-Man) to Tintangel Head. They fight Mordred, who is able to capture Scarlet Witch, and then are faced with the true foe: Morgan LeFay! She uses the Norn Stones and the Scarlet Witch to access the power of the Twilight Sword. The world then burns to white! *** Right off the bat, this issue packs in a lot! We get tons of characters, all of whom are clearly defined and full of personality. There's a good, strong sense of history here, but it's very easily accessible to any comic book fan. The opening sequences are pretty cool and I really liked seeing all of these previous Avengers members being attacked at the same time, and yet, all of them prevailing. Using the Maximoffs as a framing device for this was a good choice too, as it helps to humanize the Avengers (a family going out to dinner is relatively normal). (one thing I thought about while reading this was if Avengers on other worlds were attacked? or if Jessica Jones was attacked as well?) The scene with Cap, Wasp, Giant-Man, and Iron Man is very nicely atmospheric and you can just feel the warmth of Tony's study. Jarvis seems so quietly content with having the Avengers back in the mansion. Thor's entry into the the mansion is very dramatic (a little too much), but I loved their scene where the five of them agree to get the gang back together. Hawkeye is very nicely defined and it's kinda clear from the onset who are the Avengers that Busiek is going to focus on -- the five founders, Hawkeye, and the Maximoffs. That being said, once all the of the Avengers are assembled, he gives everyone a nice nod. Quasar, D-Man, Hercules, Black Panther, Namor, Justice, Firestar, Beast, Binary, etc etc, all get small moments of characterization. There are nods to the Avengers not there, as well as those fallen and those unwilling to show. I liked Cap's speech, but I actually really loved the panel just after it. Aside from the hilariousness of giving D-Man space, you can really read something into everyone's body language and position throughout the room. I also loved Justice throughout this entire issue. His viewing of the Avengers as being so much bigger than him, as well as his incredible awkwardness at being there makes him very relatable and gives readers (new readers, in particular) someone to help guide them through the world of the Avengers. The small scene with Rick and Jarvis is pretty good, too. Cap's team arriving the island is fun and typical super-hero stuff. The sequences wraps up quickly and I liked Morgan LeFay's plan of attack for the other Avengers (Thor battling non-Asgardian monsters and the like). The reality warp is extremely reminiscent of House of M, though Wanda only played a role in this one and didn't do it herself. Of course, we have a cliffhanger. Overall, this is a fine issue, with lots of little details and interesting and fun scenes. The characterization is top-notch, the pacing is steady, and we have a nice blend of large-scale super-heroics and humanizing, normal moments. The captions are a little over-dramatic at times and come off as unnecessary to me, but I can live with it. The art, though, is beyond words. The extreme detail and scope of George Perez is amazing. Look at the cups at the Maximoffs dinner or the expression on Hawkeye's face or the detail of ALL the battle scenes. Perez dedication to creating this world is amazing and his illustration of it is to be applauded. ----------- So that's all I got for issue one! I'm not sure if every issue is going to be as in-depth of if I'll even review them one issue at a time (I may end up doing it by story arcs, but we'll see). Thoughts? What an enjoyable post, WS! (One assumes that little ToddlerSide has finally gotten to the point where you can snag the odd 40 minutes here and there to read a comic and post an analysis, eh? I lost about two years when each of the LittleBellies were babies. . . ;D) Now, are we understanding correctly that this is the first time you've read the Busiek/Perez run? Man, you are a lucky fellow indeed. Makes me want to head right down and pull them all out yet again. I think your point about Justice's role as the POV character (more or less) for new readers is something that's often overlooked and certainly underappreciated. It felt it was a very solid and versatile narrative device that helped invite new readers in w/out ever sacrificing or taking away from our interest in long-established favorite characters. It drew from several precedents already established in the book's deep history (Cap's Kooky Quartet; Patsy Walker's internship, as well as Tigra's; the whole Probationary Avengers experiment w/ Sandman, Spidey, and Rage), and I completely bought it-- exactly the right way to bring in a younger round of team members-- both Justice & Firestar. I was always kind of bummed that the readership in general never seemed to warm up to them a bit more. It's very gratifying to hear your positive take on it. And yeah-- the art is just the best. No question. Perez is great throughout his time on this title, and then there's really not much drop-off when Alan Davis takes over. That was a fortunate hand-off indeed. HB
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Post by woodside on Mar 17, 2012 17:25:58 GMT -5
What an enjoyable post, WS! (One assumes that little ToddlerSide has finally gotten to the point where you can snag the odd 40 minutes here and there to read a comic and post an analysis, eh? I lost about two years when each of the LittleBellies were babies. . . ;D) Yeah, for the most part. Having Mrs. W around really helps too. Of course, with that being said, I suppose it's time I mention that we are now expecting a second baby. Sorry for the miscommunication. I have actually read about 99% of this run, I was just missing a few issues (issues 11, 12, the Live Kree or Die crossover, and some Thunderbolt crossover issues). But this is the first in probably 10-12 years I've dragged out them out and re-read them. Oh yeah, I was a big fan of those two. They worked in a way that Kyle Rayner/Green Lantern worked in JLA. It's nice to have an amateur mixed in with the big guns to give us a fresh, fish out of water, holy-crap-look-at-these-guys POV. I seem to remember some other artists helped fill in that gap, too, right? Steve Epting was one of them, if I recall.
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 17, 2012 22:20:06 GMT -5
1st off, congrats on the upcoming new little w.
That said, reading your review makes me nostalgic. Part of my love for this issue, I'm sure, stems from my excitement about having the Avengers back after the whole Heroes Reborn fiasco. But it wasn't just that. Not only did they return but they returned with a bang - much better than they had been before.
I also agree about Justice. I loved his enthusiasm as an Avenger. Quite often, through the years, when writers throw in a new member, it's not clear that there is real reason/need for that new member. That was not the case with Justice and Firestar. Busiek clearly had a reason for putting them in the book and followed through with it nicely. They added a lot.l
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Post by woodside on Mar 18, 2012 8:19:22 GMT -5
1st off, congrats on the upcoming new little w. Thanks! ;D --------------------- Avengers # 2 The Avengers wake up to a new world, the House of M, the House of Morgan LeFay, a Renaissance Festival gone wrong a medieval version of their own. The Marvel Universe – or at least Earth – has been warped into a world was Morgan is queen and the Avengers serve her as the Queen’s Vengeance. Luckily, the stubborn and super-charged Scarlet Witch struggles against Morgan’s control and is able to push Cap into seeing the truth. Cap goes off and is able to get Hawkeye on his side. They figure out that those that were the most passionate and dedicated to being an Avenger will be easier to free from Morgan’s spell. They proceed to confront other members of the Queen’s Vengeance, but things go awry when they meet up with Tony Stark. The freed Avengers (Cap, Photon, Hawkeye, and Wasp) are quickly faced with the Queen’s Vengeance in full, and Cap tries to stir up their feelings about being an Avenger to get them to remember. A few of them do – but Namor jumps in and punches Cap with trying to stir up trouble. A fight ensues. Thor then shows up, the spell of deception gone. Photon distracts everyone and the Avengers escape. Meanwhile, in the dungeon, Scarlet Witch’s hours of struggle come to an end as her powers restore Wonder Man to life! *** While not a terrible read, this issue was not nearly as strong as issue one. I thought the warped reality to be extremely clichéd and felt like something out of an old movie – and not in a good way. Don’t get me wrong: Busiek brings it to life with lots of background characters and backstory. Perez fleshes it out with his always-awesome artwork. But it just didn’t seem like the right fit. Morgan’s relaxed attitude about the Avengers bothered me too. I don’t even really see her as a threat anymore; she’s more of just one of the mill bad guy. Mordred, for all his posturing last issue, has the right idea – the Avengers must die. And, to be honest, the “feeling of being an Avenger” felt a little cheesy to me. But I understand that Busiek was making it clear that being a part of the Avengers was such a huge honor and a thrill and for certain people, it was such an emotional thing, it would break them out of Morgan’s control. On the other hand, it was an interesting Namor that was the one that leapt in and punched Cap in the face for trying to get them all to remember the Marvel Universe as it once was. Here’s a character that, as king of Atlantis, is extremely dedicated to the idea of a monarchy. Of course he would be the first (or second, I guess, after Iron Man) to refuse to believe this! And then there’s Justice, who hilariously jumps in too. Hawkeye’s comment about that was pretty funny. He wasn’t even an Avenger, but I guess as an Avenger fanboy, he gets roped in too. On the art end of things, we have another great issue by George Perez. There’s not as much detail as issue one, but that first issue was jam-packed while this one less detail-oriented, so it’s understandable. Perez brings this new world to life, anyways, and he makes up for it by re-designing the entire cast of the Avengers as medieval super-heroes. Also, take a quick glance at Tony Stark’s bedsheets. I laughed when I saw these. I know that bringing Wonder Man is a big deal and was a bigger deal back then, but I never knew that he had died before I read this issue. So the impact of his return was less than what it should have been, I guess. Overall, this issue was a bit of a mixed bag. I don’t care for the altered reality, but Busiek and Perez flesh it out despite my negative feelings towards it. The passion and memory of being an Avenger being what breaks them from Morgan’s control is a little cheesy, but it makes for some fun results and moves the story forward.
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 18, 2012 14:54:57 GMT -5
Good heavens, it's a W population explosion-!! Run for the hills! There'll be little, lower-case w's stealin' the cookies out of our cupboards, next thing you know-! ;D ;D Hey, can I toss out one of those "HB's favorite small detail moments" that I believe happened in #2? And I'm assuming you'll either confirm or correct me on it? There's a brief scene w/ Morgan in her castle, talking to Mordred. She's holding in apple in one panel while talking away. In a following panel, we see her seated in the window opening, gazing out, still talking--- and her cheek is puffed up w/ the bite of apple she's obviously just taken (the apple has a bit missing, in fact). She has a surprisingly wistful look on her face. To my mind it was a "perfect moment" of graphic storytelling. Without any written reference to it at all, we have a little visual gem of a moment that goes farther towards making Morgan le Fey (historically an over-the-top histrionic nut-job) into a real person than pretty much all of her previous appearances put together. It's a small moment. It's a quiet moment. It's brief and not particularly emphasized at all. But I found myself having a sympathetic response to this character that I have never particularly liked. I'm just a hopeless sucker for that stuff. . . HB
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Post by woodside on Mar 24, 2012 8:42:19 GMT -5
Avengers # 3
Cap takes the Avengers into the woods for some good ol' fashioned training. Soon enough, though Morgan broadcast out in the woods that even though they've gained the Scarlet Witch, they won't win the day. The Avengers scratch their heads -- they don't have Wanda! So where is she? Cap decides to attack tonight!
Meanwhile, Wanda and the pure energy form of Wonder Man chat about what he's been doing since he died in Force Works a billion years ago. He says that he clung to life until Wanda was able to channel his energies back to the real world. Wanda decides to attack tonight!
The Avengers sneak into the castle, but it all goes to heck in a hand basket quickly when the Queen's Vengeance decides to attack tonight!
Er, counter-attack.
The Avengers and the Queen's Vengeance tie into it and then Wanda shows up and uses her powers against Morgan. Mordred yells at Morgan to just flippin' kill the Avengers and for his insolence, she blasts and him and keeps on battling the Avengers. Wanda brings Wonder Man into the fray, but begins to run out of power during the fight.
Luckily, the fight has taken a lot out of Morgan and she loses her control over the Queen's Vengeance. They all give Scarlet Witch some of her power and Wanda channels it into Wonder Man, who defeats Morgan. The world returns to normal, with Wonder Man, Mordred, and Morgan LeFay nowhere to be found. Thor takes the Twilight Sword back to Asgard and the Avengers now have to figure out who they want on their team.
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This was a satisfying end of the threat of Morgan LeFay. As a villain, she seemed more arrogant than most and it was her ego that eventually was the end of her. I've never liked her, to be honest, and Busiek writes her well, but she doesn't click for me.
I did really like how Mordred was the voice of reason throughout this saga. I remember being surprised that he didn't try and one-up his aunt, but he never really had the chance to.
The Wonder Man stuff is nicely addressed, although a lot of is swept under the rug (with the promise of returning to it later).
The Avengers had to come together at the end, as that was a central theme of this story. I do have some issue with what exactly the Avengers were doing when they were giving some of their power to Wanda (was she absorbing it? converting it into something she could take? I'm just a little confused), but it made for a great visual and a fun coming-together scene.
The art was, as always, great. Perez brings a lot of energy and excitement to the fight scenes.
Overall, a satisfying conclusion to the threat of Morgan LeFay and a pretty good single issue!
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 29, 2012 12:35:01 GMT -5
I think one weakness of this introductory storyline overall is that for so much of it Earth's Mightiest Heroes are, in fact, not really on "Earth"-- or even strictly in "reality" on the whole. And I think that undermines its impact, especially as the inaugural arc, as it places it about a half-heartbeat away from being an Imaginary Story event. Certainly those have their place. . . I suppose. . . maybe. . . in a way. . . but they absolutely need to be done as a counterpoint or an accent to a more strongly-established realistic or normative setting. And as we all recall, we'd just spent a bajillion months trapped in the alternate Franklin/Liefeld-verse, as it was, and were starving for bread & butter Avengers action in our good ol' MU. But I do get what Busiek was going for, and I think he executes it pretty darned well within the framework he created for the story. The whole "feeling of being an Avenger" mental resistance thing? Sure, I'll buy it. I'm a sucker for Triumph of the Intagible-type resolutions. It's sentimental and a little corny-- but with Busiek and Perez, it comes across as dead-honest and sincere. And if they convey their own belief in it, then I'm able to buy into it as well. Same with Simon being rescued by the power of Wanda's love. Part of me goes "give me a break"-- but part of me also recognizes that that stuff carries some weight in how the MU operates (Cap "healing" his shield in Secret Wars I-?), so I'm happy to surrender to it.
HB
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Post by woodside on Mar 31, 2012 14:38:06 GMT -5
Avengers # 4 The world having returned to normal, the mansion is full of Avengers who have nothing else to do but hang out and beat up Whirlwind. Except that goes completely awry and it becomes time to chose a new team. Assisted by Duane Freeman, the Avengers begin to widdle down the team as members go off to do their own thing. In the meantime, Justice and Firestar go off to take down Whirlwind, which Hawkeye takes notice of. He decides to endorse their entry into the Avengers. Ms. Marvel also wants to enter the team, even though her Binary powers are burning out. As the team comes together, conflict rises and tension becomes evident. Hawkeye throws a fuss about there not being enough room on the team (and not being let in on the selection committee). We see evidence of Ms. Marvel, er, Warbird's burgeoning drinking problem. Vision and Wanda fight over the state of their marriage -- or lack there of. Eventually, the team is decided: Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Warbird, and Vision with Justice and Firestar as reserve members. ------------ So right off the bat, we get another amazingly detailed issue by the incredible George Perez. I love his attention to detail. Take a look at the computer monitor in the four panel of the first page. It has stuff on it! It's a tiny, little detail, but it's there! There's a lot of story here, so I'll just be skimming the top. I like the use of the reporters to convey the outside POV of the selection process. The snippets with all the Avengers and their reasons for leaving are well done. D-Man taking groceries back to Zero City; Tigra, Starfox, and Moondragon heading into space; Quicksilver and Crystal going off to meet with the rest of the Inhumans (which they do and its awkward ).
A lot of the little moments stand out. I really liked Hawkeye standing up for Justice and Firestar and his entire mood throughout the story. The "too many Avengers" battle with Whirlwind was hilarious (I LOL'd pretty hard with Machine Man had his hand blown off by Ms. Marvel).
I also liked Duane Freeman -- but I really liked their reaction to his pure fanboyism!
I'm not biggest Warbird fan and I find her twist into alcoholism and her name change to be kinda loopy.
The Vision and Wanda scene was interesting. The Vision just seems so cold and dispassionate towards her . . . and then we see him break a little after she leaves.
The crowning moment of the issue is when the Avengers are revealed. It's a bold, beautiful moment that ties the entire issue together.
As a whole, this issue is my favorite out of the first four. It's a nice mixture of drama, fun, and characterization -- and combined with amazing art and realistic dialogue, it made for the best thus far.
I think one weakness of this introductory storyline overall is that for so much of it Earth's Mightiest Heroes are, in fact, not really on "Earth"-- or even strictly in "reality" on the whole. And I think that undermines its impact, especially as the inaugural arc, as it places it about a half-heartbeat away from being an Imaginary Story event. Certainly those have their place. . . I suppose. . . maybe. . . in a way. . . but they absolutely need to be done as a counterpoint or an accent to a more strongly-established realistic or normative setting. And as we all recall, we'd just spent a bajillion months trapped in the alternate Franklin/Liefeld-verse, as it was, and were starving for bread & butter Avengers action in our good ol' MU. But I do get what Busiek was going for, and I think he executes it pretty darned well within the framework he created for the story. The whole "feeling of being an Avenger" mental resistance thing? Sure, I'll buy it. I'm a sucker for Triumph of the Intagible-type resolutions. It's sentimental and a little corny-- but with Busiek and Perez, it comes across as dead-honest and sincere. And if they convey their own belief in it, then I'm able to buy into it as well. Same with Simon being rescued by the power of Wanda's love. Part of me goes "give me a break"-- but part of me also recognizes that that stuff carries some weight in how the MU operates (Cap "healing" his shield in Secret Wars I-?), so I'm happy to surrender to it. HB
You hit a lot of great points. Alternate realities are indeed best when used as a counter-point to the existing universe. This one didn't quite it get right, unfortunately.
The "feeling of Avengers" does work in Busiek's realm. I just found it kinda hooky.
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Post by woodside on Apr 2, 2012 22:04:55 GMT -5
Avengers # 5
The Avengers are called in from personal business (Cap and Warbird training; Clint and Wanda shopping) to go on a mission to rescue Project: Pegasus scientists who were on their way to investigate the remains of a crashed spaceship.
During the mission, the Squadron Supreme show up, denounce the Avengers as frauds, and they battle it out. The Avengers are eventually victorious and are able to rescue the scientists. In the wake of this battle, the general public begins to question if the Avengers are who they say they are.
Also someone mysterious is very pleased to know that his own mission to recover technology from the spaceship was a success.
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To be honest, I was pretty let down with this issue. It felt very short. I really liked the tension between Cap and Hawkeye, and Warbird's awkwardness around everyone while trying to keep her secrets.
The Squadron Supreme is pretty cool and their accusations made sense (considering the Skrulls appearing in Cap and the revelation that the Thunderbolts were bad guys). I also liked that the Avengers had a hard time getting it together.
But overall? Meh. The story was fairly lackluster and aside from the action sequence with the Squadron Supreme, there wasn't much here to latch onto and draw me in.
Perez's art is still pretty great, though.
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Post by woodside on Apr 4, 2012 0:05:40 GMT -5
Avengers # 6
The Avengers are still reeling from the accusations made by Squadron Supreme. Hawkeye and Cap argue about Clint's leadership input, but come to an understanding. Wanda continues to push Vision away and takes notes of Carol's drinking.
The team heads off to Project Pegasus, where the Squadron Supreme has been living. The Avengers literally go through the team's things while Squadron Supreme is in Washington. The Squadron Supreme returns, fights with the Avengers, but they eventually figure out that the Corruptor has been mind-controlling the Squadron Supreme on behalf of the mysterious Imus Champion (but no one knows that).
In the aftermath of the fight, Cap confront Warbird about her Binary powers. She flips out, yells at him, and flies off.
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I'm sorry, but this two-parter with Squadron Supreme just didn't do anything for me. Cap doesn't bother trying to talk to the Squadron Supreme about their accusations. Likewise, Squadron Supreme doesn't, I don't know, stop by the mansion and continue their battle. And the Avengers creeping around Squadron Supreme's bedrooms? What?
Neither the Corruptor or Imus Champion are very impressive and don't instill in me any sense of danger or threat.
The best moments are actually the interplay between the characters. Even though the foes thus far are pretty lame, the characterizations of the Avengers are great. I like seeing the friction between the team members and array of emotions they are displaying towards each other. I also loved it when Cap went off on Hyperion for his piss-poor leadership skills.
Lots of questions are raised, like what is up with Wandas powers, how is Wonder Man still alive, and just how long will it be until Warbird decides that Warbird is a stupid code name?
We got a lot of bubbling beneath the surface with these different character interactions and that's what holds the book together . . . but the villains just aren't interesting at all.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 4, 2012 20:14:21 GMT -5
Naturally, since I went through a recent spree of Quasar-mania, I've been all sensitized to elements that connect to his title. And I'm thinking that the Squadron Supreme as shown here were still hanging around from being a nice part of the supporting cast from Quaze's book. This would have likely even been their next major appearance, yes? Hmm-- y'know what else? Weren't Warbird's issues with her powers also a direct result of her largely keeping the Sun from exploding in Quaze's book? Where she had the lion's share of responsibility for saving our whole planet? I'm kind of feeling like ol' Kurt Busiek may have been an admirer of that title, and was doing an admirable job of keeping some of its threads alive. But you're right-- the regular plotline here isn't as memorable as the interpersonal "stuff". But still-- it's neat to see lesser-known/half-forgotten villains out there trying to make their mark, even if they may not be completely up to the challenge, as it were. HB
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Post by woodside on Apr 4, 2012 20:55:15 GMT -5
Very interesting, HB! I have only passing knowledge of Quasar, and didn't know Squadron Supreme was involved in that title.
I know that Warbird (argh, hate that name! ) was in an issue of X-Men or two about year before she showed up in Avenger and was pretty well-powered.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 4, 2012 21:21:24 GMT -5
I love love love the Squadron Supreme (Based mostly on their outstanding limited series) but I agree that this story wasn't great. I don't remember all the details but I do recall that the Squadron came off looking a bit foolish and I didn't like that. They've shown up a few times over the years but, unfortunately, since the untimely death of one of my favorite writers, Mark Gruenwald, no one has seemed to know what to do with them. I hope that some day, someone that shares my love for the team will take a stab at them and do them Justice (League, pun intended). Actually one of my favorite lines ever was in the Avengers/ JLA crossover when Hawkeye meets the J.L.A. and calls them a bunch of Squadron Supreme wannabes.
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Post by woodside on Apr 7, 2012 21:22:48 GMT -5
Live Kree or DIE!
Iron Man # 7, Captain America # 8, Quicksilver # 10, Avengers # 7
Some Kree renegades called the Lunatic Legion go to the Supreme Intelligence in the Blue Area and have a chat with him about their vegeance for the lives lost during Operation Galactic Storm. The Supreme Intelligence has his misgivings, but keeps them to himself.
Meanwhile, Iron Man meets up with Carol and talks to her about leaving the way she did and her alcoholism. She yells at him and Tony leaves. He heads over to an energy company that Stark Enterprises started up. Carol drops by, hammered, and the two are then suddenly faced with a bunch of Kree. The Kree use a Sentry to battle Warbird and Iron Man and in turn, steal an experimental generator (turns out the head of the company made a deal with the Kree and built the generator for them). Iron Man deals with the collapsing building, but Warbird goes after the escaping Kree.
She follows them to their base in Florida, where they are conducting experiments on innocent humans with Terrigen Mists. Warbird calls in Cap and lies to him about calling in the rest of the Avengers just to show him that she's a good super-hero. Cap and Warbird battle the Lunatic Legion and free the humans, but Warbird wants to prove herself again and is captured by the Kree.
Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye teleport up to the Blue Area with Lockjaw and once there, learn from the Supreme Intelligence that the Lunatic Legion are planning on changing humanity into Kree in an effort to restart their species. They hope to accomplish this with the Terrigen Mists and Warbird's own hybrid DNA. Quicksilver rescues Carol and while the Avengers go after the Terrigen Mists and destroy the generator, Carol gets blind stinking drunk on Kree booze. The mission a - somewhat - success, they head back to Avengers mansion.
The Avengers hold a tribunal and vote to kick Carol out of the team until such a time she gets control of herself. The team receives a transmission from the moon, telling them that the Kree are preparing to fire their Omni-Wave Generator on the Earth. The team rushes up there, fight with some Kree, and then most of them sacrifice themselves to fuel the machine. The machine begins to launch and Thor opens a portal, but is ambushed. Firestar uses her power to fuel the portal and Justice helps lift into the portal, thus ending the threat. In the epilogue, SHIELD agents arrive to station the Blue Area and to work with the Supreme Intelligence. Cap also figures out that the Supreme Intelligence contacted them in the first place. Meanwhile, Carol, having failed to fly to the moon and help, considers having another drink.
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WOW! That's a lot! I was originally going to break this up into four issues, but I decided to keep on truckin' so we got one big ol' entry for ya!
The Iron Man issue was pretty good. I've always liked Sean Chen and felt that his work with the sci-fi elements is better than most artists (spaceships, aliens, and giant robots). Busiek does a good job of overlapping his own story with the crossover in a neat, logical manner. Carol's actions are a little over the top, but it works for the story context.
I've always been a Mark Waid fan, so I did enjoy his Captain America story. He does an excellent job giving Cap a voice and continuing Carol's characterization in perfect step with Busieks. My biggest criticism with this issue is the Holocaust parallels. They just felt so on-the-nose and unnecessary.
"Quicksilver" is the weakest point in the crossover. The story is way too rushed, there's far too much exposition, and Carol acts like a crazy person. I understand, yes, she's a lush . . . but drinking Kree booze? Really? Plus I didn't care for the art.
"Avengers" is the best one out of the four. The battle with the Kree is pretty cool and the ending of the story is very big and epic and helps solidify Justice and Firestar as Avengers. The tribunal was a little dorky, I have to admit, but it served its purpose. Kicking Carol out was obviously a tough choice for everyone but Quicksilver, but it was the right one. I loved her in this issue, with her vain attempts at getting to the moon to help. There's a great three panel sequence where we see her arms outstretched, trying to get higher; then we see face, which is strained and harsh; and then final panel, with the moon in her eye. Just a great sequence in a fun book.
This is a major chapter in one of Busiek's bigger story-arcs. While the Lunatic Legion was pretty much canon fodder, we got a good feeling of manipulation from the Supreme Intelligence. We know he's the true threat . . . but we have no idea what he's up to.
Good stuff!
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Post by woodside on Apr 8, 2012 10:55:32 GMT -5
Avengers/Squadron Supreme Annual 1998
The Avengers are called in to help the Squadron Supreme after the latter were almost mind-controlled again. The two team track down the attempt to the estate of Imus Champion. Imus Champion challenges the Avengers and Squadron Supreme into stopping from before he reaches his tower and blows up the world. The teams break up into smaller teams, but each are defeated. Imus Champion gets to his tower, but finds that Giant Man has broken his machines and Champion is then arrested. The Avengers also find a teleportor inside Champion's lair and use it to send the Squadron Supreme home. Also, the Swordsman and Magdalene go off to their home dimension too.
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I think I liked this one better than the previous outing with Squadron Supreme, based solely on the fact that we got some nice closure to this subplot and some good character interaction and development.
But Imus Champion was not a good villain. Swordsman, Magdalene, and Giant-Man were all very much forced in there. So far, Busiek has done an amazing job with characters, but a real poor job with the bad guys. Kinda disappointed.
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Post by woodside on Apr 11, 2012 23:03:09 GMT -5
Avengers # 8
We are plodding right along, aren't we?
This issue starts off with Jarvis asking for a day off so he can pick up his sponsor child from the airport. The Avengers happily send him on his way, but of course, things go awry when a strange new super-powered lady busts onto the scene, leading a well-armed strike force. The woman, Silverclaw, helps the strike force create as much confusion as possible. Jarvis gets trapped in the crossfire, but surprisingly, no one is hurt.
The Avengers, meanwhile, deal with their own business. Wanda ponders her own place on the time, considering the departure of Carol and the breakdown in her relationship with Vision. She gets a new, most sexy costume . . . while Firestar hates her own new look because of its cleveage. Cap gets a new energy shield, Thor gets a new alterego. Then they get a call from Jarvis and rush off to JFK airport and enter the battle. Cap fights Silverclaw and the Avengers seem to be on the ropes . . . when yet ANOTHER new super-hero shows up: Triathlon. He helps the Avengers battle the bad guys (who are revealed to be cronies under the employ of Moses Magnum) and once Thor and Iron Man show up, the battle turns for the good guys. As the Avengers turn their attention to saving the civilians, Triathlon sneaks aboard the bad guys plane.
Silverclaw reveals that she was blackmailed into helping the bad guys because they had hostages. It also turns out that she's Jarvis' sponsor child. The Avengers regroup at the mansion, and Vision spots Wanda macking with energy Simon.
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I enjoyed the issue. Despite the fact that OF COURSE Jarvis' sponsor child was a super-hero, I really didn't mind Silverclaw's introduction at all. I felt the end of a bit of a stretch and the way the Avengers just took her in is a little awkward, but it's forgivable.
Triathlon's introduction was great too. I really liked how he just leapt in and was like "Hey, I'm fighting these guys too." And that was that.
We get a nice nod to the events in both Thor and Captain America. I loved Firestar's reaction to her costume and her solution of wearing a turtleneck underneath it. I also liked that we got another tip-off that her powers might be having a negative effect on her body.
So two decent characters introduced? Yep. Nice character moments? Yep.
But again, Busiek gives us some terrible villains. Moses Magnum's minions? Really?
Really?
I'll rant more about these guys when I get to next issue.
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Post by woodside on Apr 16, 2012 23:02:53 GMT -5
Avengers # 9
The Avengers are contacted by Triathlon and are pointed to the location of Moses Magnum -- an advanced cruise liner. The Avengers sneak in. Hawkeye teams up with the newbie and end up taking on Moses Magnum head on. The Avengers enter the fray and the battle explodes. Scarlet Witch gets injured and Wonder Man emerges, knocking Moses Magnum to land. The Avengers head over and Moses Magnum gets swallowed into the Earth by Apocalypse.
The Avengers head home. Triathlon heads off. Silverclaw goes back to school. And Hawkeye . . . leaves the team?!
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I kinda liked this issue, but I had hoped it was a leading someplace bigger and better. I don't think we've seen Moses Magnum since this issue. I remember reading this and hoping that it was going to lead into an Avengers/Apocalypse battle.
It didn't . . . BUT we did get a strange sort of follow-up in the pages of Cable. The Avengers helped Cable fight Apocalypse's harbinger. In fact, the opening chapter of this team-up featured a major earthquake that was more than likely the work of Mr. Magnum. It's a fun, classic Marvel tale by Joe Casey that you guys should check out.
Character wise, the Avengers shine as always. I liked Triathilon a lot. His origin is fairly unique and I liked that some of his cocky arrogance was coming through. Silverclaw left me rather nonplussed.
Hawkeye's departure was pretty abrupt, but it makes sense in the context of the story. Its certainly been building and I'm glad it was amicable.
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Post by woodside on Apr 17, 2012 23:31:15 GMT -5
Avengers # 10 Before we begin . . . Fellow Jarvis-Heads! Please go into your basement/nerd room/what have you and pull out this issue. Flip through the amazing story and get to the letters page. Don't get distracted by the awesome art, Perez is great, but let's go right to that letters page. Read the second letter. Read the post-script. I saw that and flipped out! YAY! Anywho -- onward with the issue! NYC is celebrating Avengers Days! It's commemorates the founding of the Avengers and their return from the Heroes Reborn universe. The current members, including Giant-Man and Wasp, bask in the moment! We get nice little side POVs with Spider-Man, the X-Men, Daredevil, Bruce Banner, the Fantastic Four, and Daredevil, which adds so much to the story. We also get small references to tiny events, two splash pages of the Avengers and their greatest foes, and - of course - its ends with a big ol battle. The Grim Reaper appears and brings out various zombie Avengers, including Thunderstrike, Swordsman, Mockingbird, Hellcat, Doctor Druid, Captain Marvel . . . and Wonder Man?! SAY WHAT?! These dead Avengers take down the alive Avengers! Meanwhile, Wanda goes to see Agatha Harkness, who she had previously believed was dead. Happy to see the woman alive, Agatha explains Wanda's powers and origins in a new way. She tells Wanda that the demon Chiton formed a connection with Wanda on the day she was born and imbued into her some his own chaotic magic. Wanda has been tapping into his over the years and recently, it was the cause of Simon's reappearance. The only way to bring Simon back is to love him like he loves her. ------------- The Avengers Day material is pretty fun. It's a little odd to see the Avengers being celebrated so passionately after being called fakes just a few issues before hand, but it was good none the less. I loved all the little appearances, from both the heroes and the villains. The zombie Avengers were kinda gruesome and having Simon among them is pretty shocking. I did like that the zombie Avengers brought their baggage back with them and immediately start throwing their issues at the current Avengers. I really enjoyed the Wanda origin and it's very interesting it read in light of certain events. So Wanda was imbued with chaos magic from Chiton? Very interesting. It's worth noting that Wanda's actions during Avengers Disassembled were influenced by an unnamed entity. Could it be that - as of this story - Wanda begins to tap into the chaos magic, that she becomes more and more under the influence of Chiton? It would explain quite a bit -- Chiton could have forced her hand into contacting Doom so to be freed. He/it could have made Wanda destroy the Avengers. Hmmm. I really enjoyed this issue. Lots of neat appearances by other heroes and villains; nods to recent events; a classic Avenger villain in the Grim Reaper; more information on Wanda's background; and a great cliffhanger.
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Post by woodside on Apr 20, 2012 0:12:04 GMT -5
Avengers # 11
Wanda returns to the mansion to find the zombie Avengers waiting for her. They tie her up and are about to beat her up when she uses her powers to remind them of their heroism and "Avenger"-ness. The zombie Avengers then fly off to Central Park and rescue the living Avengers. They battle it out with the Grim Reaper and his hordes.
Agatha advises Wanda that she needs to use her love of Simon come through to stop the zombie Avengers and send them back to their resting place. She does this and the threat is ended and Wonder Man returns in physical form.
Simon snags the Grim Reaper, revealing that it was his brothers love for him that kept them both alive. Grim Reaper goes to jail and Wanda cuddles with Simon on the couch with Vision stares creepily on.
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This was a pretty decent issue with a fairly logical conclusion to the two-parter. I felt that Grim Reaper was a more fearsome foe than many of the previous ones, but still nothing to write home about. I liked that the Simon stuff has been wrapped up at last.
The last moments with the zombie Avengers were well done. I gotta wonder what Mockingbird was trying to say, in the the context of what's been revealed. "Tell him that he's got to ---"
Got to what? Find the real Mockingbird since she's Skrull? Hmm.
The "true love" conquers all is probably up there with the "Avengers"-ness that was used in the first story, but I can live with it. It works for this story.
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Post by woodside on Apr 22, 2012 22:10:51 GMT -5
Avengers Forever # 1
The Avengers head back up to the Blue Area of the moon with Rick Jones in tow, who recently fell into a coma. They figure out that what is putting him in a coma and it's the same energy that Rick exhibited during the Kree/Skrull War. The Avengers take him to the Supreme Intelligence, who demands the Avengers leave him alone with Rick so he can work his magic.
Libra shows up and the two agree that humanity is facing a turning point. Libra heads off. Immortus summons Tempus to destroy Rick Jones, but Kang arrives and kills Tempus. Immortus gets pissed and uses Tempus' body to channel warrior from across time to challenge Kang and send him away. Kang gladly aceepts this challenge and takes them on. Then Rick awakens, unleashes his power, and summons Avengers from throughout time!
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I really debated if I want to read this mini-series as one or an issue at - a - time. Ultimately, I decided to do one issue, as evidenced above.
This issue is largely set-up and is very plot-driven. I'm not a big of the exposition in the beginning -- it wasn't very dramatic and not as engaging as it could have been.
Additionally, the conversation between Supremor and Libra was kinda dull and flat. Luckily, the encounter between Kang and Immortus is excellent. Kang shines through quite a bit and is definetly the best of all the characters in this issue. He also shows off some bad-assery when he takes on the warriors.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 23, 2012 8:33:30 GMT -5
Avengers Forever # 1 The Avengers head back up to the Blue Area of the moon with Rick Jones in tow, who recently fell into a coma. They figure out that what is putting him in a coma and it's the same energy that Rick exhibited during the Kree/Skrull War. The Avengers take him to the Supreme Intelligence, who demands the Avengers leave him alone with Rick so he can work his magic. Libra shows up and the two agree that humanity is facing a turning point. Libra heads off. Immortus summons Tempus to destroy Rick Jones, but Kang arrives and kills Tempus. Immortus gets pissed and uses Tempus' body to channel warrior from across time to challenge Kang and send him away. Kang gladly aceepts this challenge and takes them on. Then Rick awakens, unleashes his power, and summons Avengers from throughout time! ---------- I really debated if I want to read this mini-series as one or an issue at - a - time. Ultimately, I decided to do one issue, as evidenced above. This issue is largely set-up and is very plot-driven. I'm not a big of the exposition in the beginning -- it wasn't very dramatic and not as engaging as it could have been. Additionally, the conversation between Supremor and Libra was kinda dull and flat. Luckily, the encounter between Kang and Immortus is excellent. Kang shines through quite a bit and is definetly the best of all the characters in this issue. He also shows off some bad-assery when he takes on the warriors. Hoo-boy, I would definitely go ahead and just read Avengers Forever as one book, if I were you. It's such a dense, complex, history-laden (and history-centric) tale that it's really tough to hang onto the through-line at all if you break it up. I LOVE the series-- but that is definitely one of its weaknesses. Now, I've read it, I think, three times total-- and it's eerily proven to cause the same memory-lapse syndrome in my own head as lots of early Marvel time-travel stories (or the first Secret Wars series) did in the minds of the characters. . . where I sort of know what happened overall-- but the details and particulars and sometimes even major events seem to inexplicably fade from easy recollection. ("It's almost like it was a dream-") Following it month-to-month was beyond the abilities of even this hard-core installment-aholic. Man, and I think I missed issue #5 initially, too. But it does keep you going when you sit down with it, no question. The art is terrific, of course-- and I truly, truly appreciated the quirky convention of pulling Avengers from different moments in time-- although I never think I caught the promised answer to the question of why it was those particular Avengers from those particular moments in their lives. There was definitely significance to the choices made. Anyone out there able to refresh and old Honorary's memory, eh? HB
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 23, 2012 14:16:29 GMT -5
Hoo-boy, I would definitely go ahead and just read Avengers Forever as one book, if I were you. HB I totally agree. I remember that when it first came out, I wasn't too impressed by it. I was confused a lot. When I went back later and read it straight through, it became one of my favorite stories. Of course, if reading it the issues individually just means reading one a day or so for reviewing purposes, it will be fine. One a month was just too long. I'm planning to go back and reread "Children's Crusade" for the same reason. I liked it as it went along but I think it will be much stronger without 2 month gaps.
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Post by woodside on Apr 24, 2012 0:19:31 GMT -5
Having just read the second issue, I would be inclined to agree with you all. The issues tend to lose their impact when read on their own! So, feel free to ignore my review above and I'll have a new one for the whole story in a few days (hopefully).
It's funny, because when this series was coming out, I didn't start to read it until issue 7. I became interested when I read a review of the comic and went to a comic con and picked up the first six issues. I salivated over them and when I reached the current issue, I was craving more.
So, you guys make a good point!
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Post by sharkar on Apr 24, 2012 15:47:10 GMT -5
W, nice job on the summaries--it's been great reading them! Avengers # 8 Wanda ponders her own place on the time, considering the departure of Carol and the breakdown in her relationship with Vision. She gets a new, most sexy costume . . . Yeah, I get that a certain portion of the comic book reading audience will find it sexy , and I get that Perez likes to draw elaborate costumes. But boy, do I hate this costume for Wanda! A hip-and-midriff baring ensemble suits Mantis--not Wanda. And it's basically the same attire Wanda wore when she and the others were trapped in that alternate, Morgan Le Fay world, right? Why would Wanda want to be reminded of the time spent in that alternate world? Plus it's got to be one of the most impractical outfits for a superhero since, well, Clint's miniskirt (back in the early 1970s). It's worth noting that Wanda's actions during Avengers Disassembled were influenced by an unnamed entity. Could it be that - as of this story - Wanda begins to tap into the chaos magic, that she becomes more and more under the influence of Chiton? It would explain quite a bit -- Chiton could have forced her hand into contacting Doom so to be freed. He/it could have made Wanda destroy the Avengers. Hmmm. Dan Slott kind of hinted that Wanda may have been under Chthon's control--at least, he had Pietro wonder about it in Mighty Avengers #23. It makes sense, after all, Chthon has been part of Wanda's story since Avengers #185-7 (the Nights of Wundagore arc). And in the 2007 Mystic Arcana issue that focused on Wanda as a child, we find out that since her childhood she has been "very special to Chthon." Avengers # 11 Agatha advises Wanda that she needs to use her love of Simon come through to stop the zombie Avengers and send them back to their resting place. She does this and the threat is ended and Wonder Man returns in physical form. Oh way to go, Agatha ;D--you're basically using guilt to coerce Wanda into having a relationship with a guy she reluctantly dated and then broke up with back in the days of Avengers West Coast!
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Post by sharkar on Apr 24, 2012 16:03:38 GMT -5
-- and I truly, truly appreciated the quirky convention of pulling Avengers from different moments in time-- although I never think I caught the promised answer to the question of why it was those particular Avengers from those particular moments in their lives. There was definitely significance to the choices made. Anyone out there able to refresh and old Honorary's memory, eh? I've never read Avengers Forever (largely because none of my favorite characters are involved), so I don't know if there's an explanation within the comics themselves. But coincidentally I did happen to read something online a few weeks ago about the genesis of the cast (hey, you know me, I love the behind-the-scenes stuff, the story behind the story). Anyway, per Mr. Kurt Busiek over at the comicbookresources.com forum (this is from 2010): "--we just picked characters we thought would be interesting, from various eras. Some because Carlos wanted to draw them, some because I wanted to write them, some were suggestions from Tom Brevoort. We batted around the ideas -- so, for instance, if Carlos wanted to draw Yellowjacket and that made me think of using crazy Yellowjacket, that was a "yes" from both of us. But we didn't use anyone we didn't both think worked. Songbird is in there because Carlos thought she was adorable and Mark Bagley drew her really well." More can be found here: forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?339965-Kurt-Busiek-s-Avengers/page9
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 24, 2012 18:53:10 GMT -5
-- and I truly, truly appreciated the quirky convention of pulling Avengers from different moments in time-- although I never think I caught the promised answer to the question of why it was those particular Avengers from those particular moments in their lives. There was definitely significance to the choices made. Anyone out there able to refresh and old Honorary's memory, eh? I've never read Avengers Forever (largely because none of my favorite characters are involved), so I don't know if there's an explanation within the comics themselves. But coincidentally I did happen to read something online a few weeks ago about the genesis of the cast (hey, you know me, I love the behind-the-scenes stuff, the story behind the story). Anyway, per Mr. Kurt Busiek over at the comicbookresources.com forum (this is from 2010): "--we just picked characters we thought would be interesting, from various eras. Some because Carlos wanted to draw them, some because I wanted to write them, some were suggestions from Tom Brevoort. We batted around the ideas -- so, for instance, if Carlos wanted to draw Yellowjacket and that made me think of using crazy Yellowjacket, that was a "yes" from both of us. But we didn't use anyone we didn't both think worked. Songbird is in there because Carlos thought she was adorable and Mark Bagley drew her really well." More can be found here: forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?339965-Kurt-Busiek-s-Avengers/page9Oh buh-rother-- those boogers! I guess the reason no deeper explanation was ever forthcoming was because. . . there actually was no deeper explanation waiting in the wings-! (In spite of any claims.) Great job as always tracking down a primary source, Shar. And really, I almost like it better as a "we just liked these characters" enterprise-- it's very true to the fanboy hearts of the creative team. Hmm- the whole "significance of the specific choices" schtick now sounds very editor-ish (assistant editor-ish?) to me. But I needn't look for problems where none actually exist. Wow, Shar, this series would seem to exist almost solely for a continuity/history buff like you-! Heck, I'd look to you to confirm its consistency-! ;D ;D ;D HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 28, 2012 11:07:21 GMT -5
So indeed, all this talking of AVENGERS FOREVER made me head down to the ol' comic book sanctum room and, as fate would have it, the first longbox I peeked into was the one where I'd stashed the series-! Truly, a sign of a guiding force of some sort. . . (heh, probably Immortus, judging from the revelations in the series. . . ).
I'm into issue #9 at this point, and am certainly "getting it" the most this time around. Reading carefully and thoroughly, and considering the events and scenes and their significance as we go along.
There's so much to love, certainly. But there are still weaknesses inherent in such a huge project that hinges on major ret-conning (even when done with such a loving hand). WS, I kind of want to see what your take is, though, before I go charging in with my own opinions.
One unintended flaw in character-choices though:
The male Avengers all suffer from a compounded case of GI Joe cookie-cutter physicality syndrome-!
TWO Hank Pyms: Blond hair; blue eyes Clint Barton: Blond hair; blue eyes (sideburns more prominent about halfway through) Steve Rogers: Blond hair; blue eyes (although he hasn't removed his mask to this point) Genis: Blond hair; blue eyes (when non-cosmic).
Sheesh! That's all five of the guys on the team! If you were to get Jim Hammond and Thor in here, we'd be able to do 7 Brides for 7 Brothers!
We've actually discussed this roster quirk in general on this board before, but boy, I don't think it could ever be as pronounced as it is in this series. Obviously, physical traits weren't at the front of Busiek & Stern's minds when they were coming up with their team, eh?
HB
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Post by woodside on May 11, 2012 22:43:50 GMT -5
Good day, all! Sorry for my brief absence, but my computer suffered a bit of a blow and that, plus work, a recently-added new routine, and the regular pressures of being a family of 3.5 and being the only source of in-coming has prevented me from writing a review of Avengers Forever until today!
I'm going to be a little more brief than normal, as I don't have a lot of time and would like to continue to read Volume Three as soon as possible.
Overall, Avengers Forever is about a team of Avengers hand-selected by Libra and summoned by Rick Jones to protect Rick from the machinations of Immortus. Turns out that the Supreme Intellgience reactivated Rick's latent powers and his connection to the mysterious "destiny force." Immortus seeks to kill Jones, but Kang openly opposes Immortus and aides the eclectic team of Avengers simply because he hates Immortus. Time travel high-jinks, sub-plot resolution, and charcter drama ensue -- and eventually the Avengers are confronted the Time-Keepers, beings who seek to wipe out several timelines because the Avengers (and Rick and his connection to the Destiny Force) go bad. An army of good and evil Avengers war with each other. Rick throws himself into the cannon (or, as I like to call it, the "canon cannon") and saves the day. Immortus is killed but a new Immortus is created by ripping Kang into two. Kang then kills the Time Keepers. The Avengers then return home, the majority of them none the wiser.
****
The Pros: - the cast. I loved just how wild and vivid the cast was. Two Hank Pyms? Songbird? The future Captain Marvel? A demoralized Cap? Non-powered, young Hawkeye? Wasp as the leader? This is a very intersting, very unique set of Avengers that help make this stroy so great. I loved the drama and angst associated with these characters and the way they still all united
- likewise, I thought Rick Jones was pretty cool in this series. I wish we would see more of his destiny force. Libra and Supremor were neat. Immortus was great.
- Kang! Kang stole the show! The chapter that was all about his life was excellent. It would be interesting to see an up-dated version of this, taking into account the Kang Dynasty, Iron Lad, and the recent appearance in Avengers Volume Four.
- The Time-Keepers felt like a major threat - as did Immortus. I think Immortus was espcially interesting, having trying to save humanity even as the Time-Keepers worked against him
- the art by Carlos Pacheco remains some of my favorite
Cons: - the story, as its told, is really convulted and weird. I don't mind a complicated story, but the exposition just seems to make it even more complicated. It's hard to put into a basic premise. Too many characters have too many motivations. Libra, the Supreme Intelligence, Kang, Yellowjacket, Immortus, the Time-Keepers --- all of these characters are manipulators. It becomes bogged down with exposition and with all the different elements running around, Busiek has to almost remind us constantly what the story is about. I'm not saying the story is bad by any means . . . but it's too complicated for its own good. The 50s Avengers and the cowboy adventure could have been removed. Libra felt somewhat unnecessary, as did Supremor.
Overall: I'm not exactly pleased with how the story has aged. I don't think it's aged as well as I had hoped. It was a blast reading it 12-13 years ago, but now, it's just a little more messy.
But that being said, the characters make the story. I like that we had a lot of sub-plots revealed and we had new wrinkles added into the history of the Avengers.
It is possible that we see these wrinkles even today. Note the Civil War occured at the exact same time as Annihilation and preventing Earth's heroes (notably the Avengers) from helping against the forces of the Negative Zone. Plus, in the aftermath of Secret Invasion, the Avengers had to go into hiding because of the rise of Norman Osborne. Could Immortus be behing some of this now? Hmmm.
Avengers Forever feels like a bit of a primer in Avengers history. For all its history and characterizations, I can walk away with a feeling of fulfillment. Despite my issues with the plot and the mass of manipulators, Avengers Forever remains a decent read. You just have to take notes.
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Post by humanbelly on May 15, 2012 9:19:14 GMT -5
I think adding those pages of reference notes every 3 issues was not a bad idea at all, y'know? It's really one of the most difficult-to-retain comic-book works I can personally remember ever reading. As you said, WS, the ongoing plot itself is HUGE and sprawls everywhere with myriad tiny, personal subplots (YJ hitting on Songbird) to the over-arching End of Most TimeStreams Armageddon plot. And all of that is directly supported by a necessary clear & active understanding of the bulk of Avengers history and continuity up to that point. It really brushes right up against the line between entertainment and required college course. . . I had actually forgotten that one of the final results was the debriding of endless, multiple Kang/Rama Tut/Immortus incarnations and off-shoots from "mainstream" Marvel continuity. That was an awfully good idea-- but I have to wonder if everyone else has had as much trouble remembering that event as I have. I also feel like Busiek fell 'WAYYYYY too much in love w/ his antagonist, here. And the Kang Dynasty mega-arc a few years later would certainly support that opinion. While the in-depth exploration of Kang's nature, motivations, and personal musings is quite well-done & interesting, and gives him true depth. . . Busiek errs far, far too much on the side of making him sympathetic. Kang is a brutal, ruthless monster-- his actions and choices completely belie any of the aspects of nobility he seems to cloak himself in, even in his moments of solitary reflection. There isn't a shred of difference between him and Hitler or Ghengis Khan or Saddam Hussein. He is an evil creature who, of course, has no self-concept that he is so. Over the years, Marvel has tended to make this mistake an awful lot with its more charismatic, longer-tenured villains. They commit unspeakable crimes in the events of a particular big, "shocking" plotline (in order to up the ante' to the reader, I imagine)-- but obviously there can never be full or permanent retribution, or they'd have to surrender the character itself forever. Doom has killed PLENTY of innocent folks over the years; the Leader murdered an entire town; Tyrannus killed a town w/ a loaded passenger jet in a "thrill-kill" scenario several years ago, and yet he popped up in the Hulk last year, all charming and rogue-ish as ever. But, I digress. Heh. . .wildly, it would appear. My other, rather silly, problem with Kang is the hyperbolic descriptions of his countless conquests. They've always bordered on North Korean-esque, and that's maintained here. It would appear that he still is aging at something like a normal rate. . . or SOME kind of normal rate. But even if it were 1/10th "normal", he simply hasn't had enough life-span to accomplish all of the conquests that are claimed. The whole "thousand thousand worlds" that he takes credit for? That's a million worlds, in other words. If he were to "conquer" a world a day, say-- that's still over 2700 years just to do that-! Heck, and that's just the conquering. When's he gonna be working on building citadels and scheming to beat the Avengers and doing all of his scientific hoo-hah jazz and all that? Nah-- that stuff has always just struck me as silly nonsense, and it tends to weaken the writing for me. Oh boy, and look how much I've gone on here. Sorry to ramble, WS! I'll turn the wheel back over to you, eh? HB
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